Saving faith with works is saving faith by works

[gordon777]

I disagree 'strongly'... with your premise, for it is not written. To try and link 'works of the law' with Faith is not an idea written in God's Word, not even by Apostle James.

Even in the Book of James, what James taught was that if... we have Faith, then we should have works in Christ to prove it. Well, what must one have in order to be 'saved'? Works? Absolutely not, as Apostle Paul was very clear that we are not saved by 'works', but by Faith. And Paul in Gal.3 even said that works is not Faith, means works is not the same concept as Faith. So we cannot insinuate things like Faith = works either. Works are simply a 'result', and that's all.

The result of the work of Christ to lay HIs life down for all is faith, this means saving faith for all, as we receive the Spirit through belief in HIs works, not belief in words only.

 

[gordon777]

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Romans 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


( if anything is disputed, I will explain all, because it wont be disputed then.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Can we be scolded for doing truth, could we have differences in doing as Jesus did.

The forums are testified to, it was time 2000 years ago to leave all we had, to follow Christ into death then life, it is not time to talk as if He never came and showed the way, by not doing the very same love as He did to lay HIs life down, even for the ungrateful.

No other voice is to be heard, only one is worthy, the Pharisees are a comparison, they touch nothing with one of their fingers. ( good talkers.)

Here's the point gordon.
The truth is JESUS.
Pilate asked Jesus WHAT IS THE TRUTH?
The truth was standing right before him.

Anything else in the bible can be discussed and the reason is that NOT ALL theologians agree 100% on anything.
We're dealing with a different language and its nuances and a different culture 2,000 years in distance from us.

So we can discuss whatever we want to and we will not scold others for doing what you yourself do.

No one here is talking as if Jesus never came.
Please respect everyone.

 

[DavidT]

You keep talking about promise which is good, to remind again of the ones of Israel are the only ones who have non devil ( faith) in Christ, the others have evil minds/hearts..


Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Only a study in The Old Testament Books about God's Birthright will reveal the full Message by Apostle Paul in Galatians about Abraham and Israel.

God's Birthright is similar to a first born son's family birthright, yet much higher to include the 'spiritual'.

For example, when God gave Abraham the Promise by Faith, and Abraham believed God, and God counted it to Abraham as righteousness, that was about God's Birthright of The Gospel of Jesus Christ. But the Birthright also included specific Blessings to Abraham, like blessings of many seed, blessing of the lands of inheritance, blessing of ruling the gates of one's enemies, and blessing of plenty grain and wine (i.e., resources, wealth).

Those Blessings are about God's Birthright. God first gave His Birthright to Abraham, and then it went to his son Isaac, and then to his son Jacob who was given a new name to symbolize... God's Birthright, the name ISRAEL ('to overcome with God's help'). And then the Birthright went to his son Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, the main transfer upon Ephraim who's seed was to become "a multitude of nations" per the Genesis 48 prophecy. And that is where God's Birthright still rests to this day, upon the head of Ephraim which represents the western Christian nations of history, i.e., the "multitude of nations."

So when many brethren that have not studied their Bible about this say things about God's chosen 'seed' that just are not true, but are just hype from staying in the New Testament only, then it makes me have a kind of tongue-in-cheek response, and I can't help it, because this Plan by God I'm talking about is laid out in His Word, and all one need do once it is understood is simply look at the world and easily see where He accomplished it per His Word.

God's Birthright still exists on earth today among the 'seed' of Israel. The problem that many brethren don't seem to grasp is that the majority of the children of Israel were not called 'Jews'. This involves the 1 Kings 11 forward split of the old nation of Israel in Solomon's days. God separated the ten tribes apart from the Jews. Yet God used that separated ten tribe part to accomplish His prophecy through Ephraim of the "multitude of nations", which manifested as Christ's Church in the western nations, and now includes many peoples outside the west that also believe on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior.

 

[DavidT]

Furthermore, in Romans 11 Apostle Paul revealed how God has kept a remnant of the 'seed' of the children of Israel in His Birthright which includes The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Apostles and disciples represented that early seed of the "house of Judah" (Jews), and "house of Israel" (ten tribes), that God had preserved unto Himself.

And looking at Apostle Paul's conversion to Christ, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself literally intervened with Paul's belief, and caused Paul to believe. That's a sign of a chosen elect. And Jesus said that Paul was His 'chosen vessel' (Acts 9). Yet some folks will still... claim that Paul believed on Jesus by his own free will, which simply is not true. For some reason those folks just cannot believe what is written in Acts 9 about Jesus revealing Himself to Paul by direct intervention, and thus influencing Paul's free will choice. And no one can say that Paul did not understand about The Gospel Message, for that is how Paul went looking to hunt down Christians when he was serving the Pharisees.

All the way from the man Adam down to the Apostles, among the 'seed' of the children of Israel, this has been the type of spiritual connection God has worked with His 'chosen seed', His elect of the 'seed'. So those of us that are Gentiles that have believed, we indeed represent 'spiritual seed' according to The Gospel Promise. But God's chosen elect of the seed of Israel, The Father already owned them, and gave them to Jesus, which Jesus even reveals this point in His prayer in John 17.

 

[gordon777]

Here's the point gordon.
The truth is JESUS.
Pilate asked Jesus WHAT IS THE TRUTH?
The truth was standing right before him.

Anything else in the bible can be discussed and the reason is that NOT ALL theologians agree 100% on anything.
We're dealing with a different language and its nuances and a different culture 2,000 years in distance from us.

So we can discuss whatever we want to and we will not scold others for doing what you yourself do.

No one here is talking as if Jesus never came.
Please respect everyone.

We cant respect a doctrine that is anything like the Pharisees, I just made a thread on that, you can have a look if you like.

 

[gordon777]

Furthermore, in Romans 11 Apostle Paul revealed how God has kept a remnant of the 'seed' of the children of Israel in His Birthright which includes The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Apostles and disciples represented that early seed of the "house of Judah" (Jews), and "house of Israel" (ten tribes), that God had preserved unto Himself.

And looking at Apostle Paul's conversion to Christ, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself literally intervened with Paul's belief, and caused Paul to believe. That's a sign of a chosen elect. And Jesus said that Paul was His 'chosen vessel' (Acts 9). Yet some folks will still... claim that Paul believed on Jesus by his own free will, which simply is not true. For some reason those folks just cannot believe what is written in Acts 9 about Jesus revealing Himself to Paul by direct intervention, and thus influencing Paul's free will choice. And no one can say that Paul did not understand about The Gospel Message, for that is how Paul went looking to hunt down Christians when he was serving the Pharisees.

All the way from the man Adam down to the Apostles, among the 'seed' of the children of Israel, this has been the type of spiritual connection God has worked with His 'chosen seed', His elect of the 'seed'. So those of us that are Gentiles that have believed, we indeed represent 'spiritual seed' according to The Gospel Promise. But God's chosen elect of the seed of Israel, The Father already owned them, and gave them to Jesus, which Jesus even reveals this point in His prayer in John 17.

The children of the flesh cant please God, and the Spirit of God has to be in us for us to not be in the flesh. ( the Spirit of Christ to be in jus, or, WE ARE NONE OF HIS.

That also is how anyone is risen by Hs Spirit which is in us...



Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[DavidT]

The children of the flesh cant please God, and the Spirit of God has to be in us for us to not be in the flesh. ( the Spirit of Christ to be in jus, or, WE ARE NONE OF HIS.

That also is how anyone is risen by Hs Spirit which is in us...

All.. must believe on Jesus Christ to be saved, and that includes the 'chosen seed' of Israel, "the remnant according to the election of grace".


Rom 11:1-5
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV

Paul then showed God put a spirit of slumber, spiritual blindness upon the majority of Israel, but not upon the 'remnant' of the seed of Israel. And for this reason it was so The Gospel would go also to the Gentiles.

Rom 11:7-15
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
KJV

Then Paul warns us Christians, to NOT boast against the unbelieving seed of Israel, because we also would be 'cut off' if we don't continue in His goodness. Paul also said for us to not be 'conceited' with being IGNORANT of the mystery about unbelieving Israel....

Rom 11:18-32
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, 'The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.'
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

How can that above be, some might be thinking? It's because the blindness God Himself put upon them still does not hold them 'accountable'. Only once God removes that spirit of slumber He placed upon them for His Purpose, will they be held accountable for their choice to believe, or not.

Paul is thus pointing to one who refuses to understand this 'mystery' about God putting blindness upon them, means to be wise in one's own conceits.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

The unbelieving Jews are still "beloved for the father's sakes." God is not going to remove their chosen status when He is The One Who put that blindness to The Gospel upon them. And just who are we to judge one to condemnation to the "lake of fire" anyway?? That authority belongs to Lord Jesus only.

 

[GodsGrace]

We cant respect a doctrine that is anything like the Pharisees, I just made a thread on that, you can have a look if you like.

I'm seeing enough here.
Guess a word to the wise is not sufficient.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Who's being pushy?

Those who push keeping the law of Christ on those who reject keeping His law, and live by their own faith alone, whether keeping or transgressing His law.

He is simply asking us to 'listen' to Him in His Word

God's not 'asking' anyone to just hear His word, but commanding all men to repent and do His word.

James
{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

instead of Satan's workers that lie.

Satan only asks for a hearing of his own word, that man does not need to keep God's law, but only live by their own faith alone.

Gen
{3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Just as Lucifer first did among all God's angels.

i

You can quote the whole of the Old Testament while leaving out the Gospel Promise first given through Abraham by... Faith, and you will not change anything. Apostle Paul in Galatians 3 and Romans 4, foundation Books of Christian Doctrine, made it very plain that The Gospel Promise by Faith was always 1st, before the law. Abraham believed God, and God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness, per Galatians 3 and Romans 4.

And quote the whole Bible about how faith alone is dead, and is not the justifying faith of God that keeps His law does His word.

Gen
{26:5} Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I really try not to include ideas like 'works of our own righteousness' with Scripture ideas about the Promise by Faith,

Scripture ideas? God is just passing on ideas? What? He's some big fluffy cloud in sky with ideas read in the images we can imagine are there?

God excludes all our own works of righteousness from being justified by Him. Only by doing His righteous will are His sons justified by God.

And I have to laugh at some who wrongly try... to link one's 1st belief on Jesus Christ as 'work' of the law.

The beginning of faith in Jesus Christ, is only by repenting of one's own sinning.

Heb
{6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

The continuing faith of Jesus is only keeping His law, and not transgressing His will.

The law of God is not the devil in the room, certainly not keeping it. Transgressing His law is the children of the devil in the room.

That's just how deluded some folks are with the concept of God's law and their flesh.

Once again with the 'concepts'. There is no conceptualizing God's words, but only hearing, believing, and doing the truth, or not.

God's law condemns man's unrighteous works of the flesh, as being transgressions of His law.

They cannot seem to separate even 'belief' on Jesus Christ from law keeping.

That's because the unrepented sinner's belief is no better than devils, who also believe and repent not.

James
{2:19} Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

And, God says the devils faith is even greater than unrepented sinful man, that justify themselves by their own faith alone. The devils at least fear the Lord's judgment, but self-justifiers remove any fear of the Lord from their sinful lives.

Neither Jesus nor His faith is never not keeping His own law, much less transgressing it.

The unrepented sinner's faith in sinning more, or les, is unbelief toward God by disobedience at any time..

Trusting in one's own faith alone to save ourselves with sinning, including less than before, only lasts in this life until the grave.

In the end, the righteous Father will judge us all by our works, without any respect to our 'ideas' about it.

God judges the devils as devils by their works, despite believing He is God. And so the same with children of the devil by their works.

1 John
{3:9} Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {3:10} In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,

 

[RBDERRICK]

You defined truth.
But neglected to state what it is.

I asked because we all think we have the truth.
It would be nice if we all acknowledged each other's differences with christianly love instead of scolding us for discussing.

I've seen this from time to time. It amazes me that they only end up causing more strife, by making accusations without proof of correction.

There are some who cannot handle disagreement. And others who want to be the only talkers in the room.

Paul even warned the teachers in the assembly not to hog the whole show:

1 Cor
{14:29} Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

In the free assembly of the saints, every least member has right and power of Spirit to speak the things of God. And every member also has right and power of the written word, to dispute the things spoken, whether they be of God, or of themselves.

Acts
{17:11} These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The apsotles never objected to their words being disputed from Scripture, but instead welcomed it, because God judges it more honorable to prove all things said and taught by His own words. The apsotles even disputed among themselves to know the truth of Scripture.

Acts
{15:6} And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. {15:7} And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them,

The only rule is doing so decently and in order with objectively, without making it personally insulting. Which says alot about people rushing into the middle of a doctrinal dispute, only to personally insult everyone in the room...

But, in the end it's usually only a temporary stay. They eventually go away self-satisfied, or begin making and defending their own arguments like everyone else.

 

[GodsGrace]

I've seen this from time to time. It amazes me that they only end up causing more strife, by making accusations without proof of correction.

There are some who cannot handle disagreement. And others who want to be the only talkers in the room.

Paul even warned the teachers in the assembly not to hog the whole show:

1 Cor
{14:29} Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

In the free assembly of the saints, every least member has right and power of Spirit to speak the things of God. And every member also has right and power of the written word, to dispute the things spoken, whether they be of God, or of themselves.

Acts
{17:11} These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The apsotles never objected to their words being disputed from Scripture, but instead welcomed it, because God judges it more honorable to prove all things said and taught by His own words. The apsotles even disputed among themselves to know the truth of Scripture.

Acts
{15:6} And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. {15:7} And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them,

The only rule is doing so decently and in order with objectively, without making it personally insulting. Which says alot about people rushing into the middle of a doctrinal dispute, only to personally insult everyone in the room...

But, in the end it's usually only a temporary stay. They eventually go away self-satisfied, or begin making and defending their own arguments like everyone else.

I agree.
That's what staff aims for in this Christian Forum. All beliefs can be discussed but with respect for the others.

I really like Acts 17:11.

But some feel they're the only ones who know anything of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Obedience is the "work" being referred to concerning, salvation, or justification.

In other words we are saved by obeying the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

This is referred to as the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

Obedience is the element that causes faith to "be alive", or "activated".

Without obedience, faith remains dead or dormant; inactive and unable to produce the intended divine result, just as a body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without "works", the action of obedience, is dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

JLB

Obedience does not cause our faith to be alive. It shows that our faith is alive. (James 2:18) Our faith is alive when we are made alive together with Christ the moment that we are saved by grace through faith - Ephesians 2:5-8) and good works follow. (Ephesians 2:10) You are putting the cart before the horse and the end result is salvation by faith AND WORKS.

 

[mailmandan]

Where does it say in scripture we are saved by faith alone?

The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone. *Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

Question:

Do you believe it is necessary to obey the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved?

We must obey the Son by choosing to believe in the Son in order to be saved.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

I often hear those who promote salvation by works cite John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works. Now in regard to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." To refuse to believe in the Son is to disobey, rebel, be disloyal and refuse conformity. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.