Is baptism required for salvation?

[Eternally-grateful]

You have it backwards...

Greek: Metanoēsate kai baptisthētô ekastos hymôn en tô onomati Iesou Xristou eis afesin tôn hamartiôn hymôn…
(Source)

Literally: Repent (pl.) And let each of you be baptized (sg.) in the name of Jesus Christ UNTO (eis) the forgiveness of your sins.

The preposition eis is directional and purposive.

Acts 2:38 demonstrates baptism washes away sins.

No. You have it wrong

repent is a 2nd person plural noun. Peter told everyone to repent.

Be baptized is a third person singular. Peter did nto tell everyone to be baptized. He only told select individuals.

you shall receive The gift of the spirit is 2nd person plural. which point to repent (not baptize)

Unto remission of sin points to be baptized. but it would be error to say they are baptized to recieve remission of sin, because having already received the gift of the spirit tells us that remission of sin already took place.

Peter said repent ye (plural) and let every one of you (singular)

even the old English texts show there is a literary and language different between the word repent and be baptized.

Peter told everyone to repent. in doing so they would receive the gift of the spirit

then he spoke to those individuals (singular) to be baptized in the account they received remission of sin.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

how do you know?
are you adding your interpretation to scripture?

typical catholic response

Not I am just interpreting the word at what it says.

how do we settle it?

we must hear Christ and His church!

No, we settle it like peter tells us to. By using the word.

matt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

If you believe scripture you would believe the teaching of the apostolic church which alone possesses the authority of Jesus Christ in union with Jesus Christ! matt 28:19-20 matt 16:18:19 Jn 20:21-23 acts 1:1-8

Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12

The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14

Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3

The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17

Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6

The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15

I can post the teaching of the fathers if you like?

the unanimous teaching is that without baptism no man is saved!

thanks

Typical catholic response. they have you so in fear and their doctrines are so wishy washy they demand you come to them, because they are afraid they may lose you

Hey, if this makes you happy feel free.. But I will do what God commands me to and not trust any one, even the bereans were more noble using the word to prove what the APOSTLE paul said.

The true church would teach the true jesus.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Bingo!

This is exactly why St. Paul compares Christian baptism to Jewish circumcision...

"In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses. (Col 2:11-13)

Baptism is the requirement to enter into the the New Covenant just as circumcision was a requirement of the Abrahamic covenant.

The deluge killed all "flesh," saving only 8 people.
Circumcision cuts off the "flesh," on the 8th day.

The parallels are only coincidental if you are a modern-day Protestant.

Notice who did the circumcision and the baptism in this passage.

it is the holy spirit. Not the priest.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

FYI, Christians believe baptism is only efficacious because of the blood of Christ. This is why St. John repeatedly connects the blood of Christ with water...

"But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water." (John 19:34)

"This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:6-8)

lol

Baptism is officious, when God does it. Not when a priest does it..

 

[donadams]

Yes sir. Of course.

However, I’m referring to a person who is already born again.

Shouldn’t Christians obey Jesus Christ as their Lord since they were saved by confessing Him as LORD.

At the end of the day, our Lord is the one we obey.


Yes full immersion. Not sprinkled.

No infants.

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

 

[donadams]

Yes sir. Of course.

However, I’m referring to a person who is already born again.

Shouldn’t Christians obey Jesus Christ as their Lord since they were saved by confessing Him as LORD.

At the end of the day, our Lord is the one we obey.


Yes full immersion. Not sprinkled.

No infants.

immersion is the preferred method but all are valid, scripture refers to sprinkling many times
ez 36:25-27
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Johann!@#]

"This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:6-8

Are you familiar with The Comma Johanneum?

J.

 

[donadams]

Yes sir. Of course.

However, I’m referring to a person who is already born again.

Shouldn’t Christians obey Jesus Christ as their Lord since they were saved by confessing Him as LORD.

At the end of the day, our Lord is the one we obey.


Yes full immersion. Not sprinkled.

No infants.

Infant Baptism!

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Promise is to you’re children! Vs 39

This promise made in ez 36
A promise from God is a sacred oath, and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say adults only or except infants!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness.

(It does not say adults only or except infants!)
(Scripture does not say anywhere “do not baptized infants”)

Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament of the new covenant for all men. Matt 28:19 Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (It does not say except infants!) (but it does say “all”)!

Lk 1:10-11 all people including infants

Thee faith is required for adult baptism.
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

If it’s not possible (as in the case of infants) it’s not required.

But the promise of the parents to raise and educate the child in the faith is required, then the child is confirmed in thee faith at the age of reason.

Repentance is required for adult baptism. Acts 2:38

If there is no personal sin to repent of (as in the case of infants) then it’s not required.

For two thousand years the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always baptized infants!

Acts 1:8
Witness of Augustine!

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

“The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (ibid., 2:27:43).

“Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted” (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]).

“This is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism, which is celebrated among us: all who attain to this grace die thereby to sin—as he himself [Jesus] is said to have died to sin because he died in the flesh (that is, ‘in the likeness of sin’)—and they are thereby alive by being reborn in the baptismal font, just as he rose again from the sepulcher. This is the case no matter what the age of the body. For whether it be a newborn infant or a decrepit old man—since no one should be barred from baptism—just so, there is no one who does not die to sin in baptism. Infants die to original sin only; adults, to all those sins which they have added, through their evil living, to the burden they brought with them at birth” (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love 13[41] [A.D. 421]).

 

[Walpole]

No. You have it wrong

repent is a 2nd person plural noun. Peter told everyone to repent.

Be baptized is a third person singular. Peter did nto tell everyone to be baptized. He only told select individuals.

you shall receive The gift of the spirit is 2nd person plural. which point to repent (not baptize)

Unto remission of sin points to be baptized. but it would be error to say they are baptized to recieve remission of sin, because having already received the gift of the spirit tells us that remission of sin already took place.

Peter said repent ye (plural) and let every one of you (singular)

even the old English texts show there is a literary and language different between the word repent and be baptized.

Peter told everyone to repent. in doing so they would receive the gift of the spirit

then he spoke to those individuals (singular) to be baptized in the account they received remission of sin.

Wrong...

Acts 2:38: Πέτρος δὲ πρὸς αὐτούς Μετανοήσατε, [φησίν] καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐν / ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ὑμῶν, καὶ λήμψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος·

And Peter said to them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The original Greek of the Nicene Creed confirms the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles...

"ὁμολογοῦμεν ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν" which means "we confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins." (The word εἰς can be translated either way as "unto" or "for," since both in English in this context mean the same thing.)

The effect of baptism from the genesis of the Christian faith was clearly understood. Even the progenitor of Protestantism affirmed the necessity of baptism and its salvific effects. Here is Luther again...

"This is the simplest way to put it: the power, effect, benefit, fruit, and purpose of baptism is that it saves. For no one is baptized in order to become a prince, but as the words say, ‘to be saved.’ To be saved, as everyone knows, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death and the devil, to enter into Christ’s kingdom, and to live with him forever." - Martin Luther, Large Catechism

It wasn't until much later when other Protestants were bold enough to claim Jesus and the Apostles were actually wrong about baptism...

"In this matter of baptism - if I may be pardoned for saying it - I can only conclude that all the doctors have been in error from the time of the Apostles...At many points we shall have to tread a different path from that taken either by ancient or more modern writers or by our own contemporaries." (Zwingli, De Baptismo, 1525 A.D.)


Which way modern man? Jesus Christ or thy self?

 

[Walpole]

Notice who did the circumcision and the baptism in this passage.

it is the holy spirit. Not the priest.

FYI, a Christian baptism = WATER and the HOLY SPIRIT (John 3:5)

 

[Johann!@#]

Infant Baptism!

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Promise is to you’re children! Vs 39

This promise made in ez 36
A promise from God is a sacred oath, and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say adults only or except infants!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness.

(It does not say adults only or except infants!)
(Scripture does not say anywhere “do not baptized infants”)

Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament of the new covenant for all men. Matt 28:19 Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (It does not say except infants!) (but it does say “all”)!

Lk 1:10-11 all people including infants

Thee faith is required for adult baptism.
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

If it’s not possible (as in the case of infants) it’s not required.

But the promise of the parents to raise and educate the child in the faith is required, then the child is confirmed in thee faith at the age of reason.

Repentance is required for adult baptism. Acts 2:38

If there is no personal sin to repent of (as in the case of infants) then it’s not required.

For two thousand years the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always baptized infants!

Acts 1:8
Witness of Augustine!

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

“The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (ibid., 2:27:43).

“Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted” (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]).

“This is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism, which is celebrated among us: all who attain to this grace die thereby to sin—as he himself [Jesus] is said to have died to sin because he died in the flesh (that is, ‘in the likeness of sin’)—and they are thereby alive by being reborn in the baptismal font, just as he rose again from the sepulcher. This is the case no matter what the age of the body. For whether it be a newborn infant or a decrepit old man—since no one should be barred from baptism—just so, there is no one who does not die to sin in baptism. Infants die to original sin only; adults, to all those sins which they have added, through their evil living, to the burden they brought with them at birth” (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love 13[41] [A.D. 421]).

What sign did John the Baptist look for to determine if the person being baptized genuinely meant it--something that infants are incapable of doing?

At what age did boys and girls become Bar Mitzvah? Something infants are incapable of doing?

Johann.

 

[donadams]

That’s not water baptism.

That’s some man made thing.

So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:37-39


This is the biblical baptism that corresponds to death and resurrection.

in the mind of a fundamentalist sure!

where does scripture say immersion is required?

do you need it three times?

 

[donadams]

That’s not water baptism.

That’s some man made thing.

So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:37-39


This is the biblical baptism that corresponds to death and resurrection.

there are depictions of baptism in the catecombs and in ancient churches that depict pouring!

 

[Johann!@#]

FYI, a Christian baptism = WATER and the HOLY SPIRIT (John 3:5)

Was Paul a Sacramentarian?

Johann.

 

[Walpole]

I find it quite humorous to argue for immersion versus sprinkling and the volume of water and its application given you and the others are arguing the water is itself just a symbol!

Luke 11:38 ---> "And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed (baptizō) before dinner."

Do you submerge your hands when washing them or sprinkle / pour water on them?

Here is a passage from the Mishnah, describing exactly the Jewish washing of hands, which St. Luke references...

---> https://archive.org/stream/DanbyMish.../n807/mode/2up



Can you please give us the verse which prescribes the amount of water to be used in the baptismal ritual, as well as the instruction on immersion? Give me the instruction for in Scripture for immersing / dunking someone INTO water.

 

[Walpole]

Was Paul a Sacramentarian?

Johann.

Yes. For example St. Paul explicitly refers to marriage as a Sacrament. (Ephesians 5:32)

"This is a profound mystery but I am talking about Christ and the church."

"Sacramentum hoc magnum est, ego autem dico in Christo et in Ecclesia."

"Sacrament" is the Latin for the Greek word mysterion.


ETA: Interestingly, like baptism, Protestants also reject marriage is a Sacrament!

Which way modern man? Jesus Christ or thy self???

 

[Free]

St. Peter says otherwise...

"Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you AND YOUR CHILDREN and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." (Acts 2:38-39)

St. Peter is referencing the Prophet Joel, who prophesied the coming of grace and the sanctification of the people, which included children and infants (those that "suck the breasts")...

Joel 2:16 ---> "Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet."

St. Peter tells us the prophet Joel's prophesy is fulfilled with baptism.

Are children only infants?

Again, baptism is given only to believers in the NT. The CC practice of baptising infants is unbiblical, which is interesting since you are trying hard to ground baptismal regeneration in Scripture.

Since the CC believes that baptism saves, then if follows that all infants are saved, despite the repeated claim in the NT that salvation requires a profession of faith. No one is partly saved; they are either saved or they are not.

 

[Johann!@#]

Are children only infants?

Again, baptism is given only to believers in the NT. The CC practice of baptising infants is unbiblical, which is interesting since you are trying hard to ground baptismal regeneration in Scripture.

Since the CC believes that baptism saves, then if follows that all infants are saved, despite the repeated claim in the NT that salvation requires a profession of faith. No one is partly saved; they are either saved or they are not.

What I was looking for--in Jewish culture, Bar Mitzvah excludes infants.

Still trying to use Microsoft Paint though.

God bless.

Johann.

 

[Walpole]

Are children only infants?

Again, baptism is given only to believers in the NT. The CC practice of baptising infants is unbiblical, which is interesting since you are trying hard to ground baptismal regeneration in Scripture.

Since the CC believes that baptism saves, then if follows that all infants are saved, despite the repeated claim in the NT that salvation requires a profession of faith. No one is partly saved; they are either saved or they are not.

The Church has baptized infants from the beginning. And even the progenitor of Protestantism taught the necessity of baptizing infants!

Here is Martin Luther again...

“We can hardly deny that the same Christ is present at baptism and in baptism, in fact is himself the baptizer, who in those days came in his mother’s womb to John. In baptism he can speak as well through the mouth of the priest, as when he spoke through his mother. Since then he is present, speaks, and baptizes, why should not his Word and baptism call forth spirit and faith in the child as then it produced faith in John? He is the same one who speaks and acts then and now.” - Luther’s Works (ed. Jaroslav Pelikan and Helmut T. Lehmann; 55 vols.; Philadelphia: Fortress, 1955–76), 40:245-246

According to Luther, infant baptism is “the most certain form of baptism.” Adults can be hypocrites, feigning fidelity to Christ. A little child, however, is incapable of deception. Infant baptism is, therefore, efficacious, which is a primary reason they are brought to the font. Luther writes...

“The most certain form of baptism is child baptism. For an adult might deceive and come to Christ as a Judas and have himself baptized. But a child cannot deceive. He comes to Christ in baptism, as John came to him, and as the children were brought to him, that his word and work might be effective in them, move them, and make them holy, because his Word and work cannot be without fruit. Yet it has this effect alone in the child. Were it to fail here it would fail everywhere and be in vain, which is impossible.” Luther’s Works (ed. Jaroslav Pelikan and Helmut T. Lehmann; 55 vols.; Philadelphia: Fortress, 1955–76), 40:244


And of course we have the words of our Blessed Lord, who said, “Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 19:14


We baptize our children because man is born with a deprivation: the lack of grace due to the fall of Adam. Baptism gives man "newness of life." (Romans 6:4) For thus he must be born again.

It is thus the responsibility of Christian parents to bring up their children in the faith. The faith of the Church is the child's birthright which is claimed for them by their Christian parents. Do you force your children to live outside of your house until they are old enough to profess membership in your household? I would hope not. So too Christian parents do not exclude their children from the household of God.


Which way modern man? Jesus Christ or thy self?

 

[Eternally-grateful]

immersion is the preferred method but all are valid, scripture refers to sprinkling many times
ez 36:25-27
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Um No

To baptize by defenition means to immerse

Sprinking is a totally different word in the greek..