Is Matthew 24:34 grounds for skepticism?

[Wheat Field]

C.S. Lewis, author and lay Anglican theologian wrote the following (from 'The world's last night and other essays' - 1960):

"Say what you like" we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are In heaven, neither the Son, but the Father"

I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus. What do you say?

 

[Wheat Field]

No not really. They witnessed the resurrections of Christ. so they saw the kingdom come.

I believe Judas is the only one who did not see it. because he committed suicide

How do yo make the Son of Man coming in his kingdom the equivalent of the resurrection please? Can you back that up with scripture? Elsewhere Jesus talks explicitly about his coming death and resurrection - so why wouldn't he just use 'resurrection' in Matthew 16?

 

[Wheat Field]

This generation, Matthew 24:34 means generational line of those who follow Christ and endure all things until the end of days and Christ returns. Generation can refer to a group of people, a period of time, or even a lineage

This interpretation appears to render Jesus' words as redundant - that he is saying there will be believers around till the end when he comes - but we already know that because He has just talked about gathering his elect (v.31).

Also, Jesus' confession that He does not know the day or hour is in line with interpreting 'this generation' as the generation that witnesses the abomination. Though he does not know that day or hour, he does know the rough time period - one generation.

Matthew, Mark and Luke are three disciples who wrote of the same witness as they testify of what Jesus gave as answers to the three questions the disciples asked Him. When shall these things be? What shall be the sign of they coming and the end of the world? Matthew 24:3

The first thing Jesus proceeds to tell them is that there would never be another physical Temple of God built again and then proceeds to speak of the beginning of sorrows, Matthew 24:4-8, Rev 6:1-17, and not to be deceived nor be troubled for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Where does Jesus say that?

 

[Wheat Field]

Context of this is the great tribulation period. Not all people of all times.

Jesus would not contradict himself and say we must endure till the end to get to heaven.

if this is required. heaven will be empty

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

How can you judge me without knowing who I am! You really went out to left field on this as I said nothing of what you are saying here.

No one can save themselves without Christ who is our redeemer, Matthew 19:26; John 3:5-7.

Sinless perfection is a false doctrine as none of us are perfect yet, but we strive for that perfection that is in Christ, Philippians 1:6.

No man is above His master in whom is Christ Jesus, John 13:16.

There are two ways to observe

1. What do the teach. Do they point to self or point to christ
2 if they point to Christ. Scripture says you can know them by their fruuts

So in our discussion. You keep
Claiming you must “endure till the end”. Ie. You must work. enduring is not easy. Secondly what does it mean. Endure to what? How good is good enough? How bad is so bad you fail to endure. What works? In any case. You’re pointing to self. Your work of enduring not christ”s work on the cross and his promise to keep you from falling

The Catholic Church teaches a works based gospel a sacramental system of works one must do if they want to assure salvation. Water baptism is just one of those merit based works they claim you must do

I am judging your gospel. Not you. Again you want to endure and work to get saved feel free, we have free will

Otherwise Try to interpret the word as written. He is speaking of physical life during the tribulation period. (The Catholic Church does not believe this is a future event either. So it’s like double error

Now if you don’t believe you must endure it be immersed in water. Forgive me for misunderstanding

 

[Eternally-grateful]

True. They were full of peace, joy and righteousness, and experiential knowledge of Yeshua, and they were daily abiding as one (echad) with Yeshua and the Father Yahweh and one another all immersed in Yeshua's Name.
Man slaves of satan came up with differing ideas .

Yes
And they were full of joy because they were assured of salvation. Not thinking they could lose it

 

[Eternally-grateful]

How do yo make the Son of Man coming in his kingdom the equivalent of the resurrection please? Can you back that up with scripture? Elsewhere Jesus talks explicitly about his coming death and resurrection - so why wouldn't he just use 'resurrection' in Matthew 16?

The kingdom of God is at hand

When did it start?

 

[Johann!@#]

The kingdom of God is at hand

When did it start?

Some problems here Eternally-grateful

Dispensationalism: The Future Kingdom Focus
Dispensationalists often emphasize the “not yet” aspect of the Kingdom, seeing it primarily as a future physical reality rather than a present spiritual one.

Key Beliefs-

The Kingdom will be fully realized during the Millennial Reign (Revelation 20:1–6), where Christ will physically rule on earth from Jerusalem.

The present age is seen as a church age, distinct from the Kingdom age, which is still to come.

The Kingdom was offered to Israel during Jesus’ ministry (Matthew 4:17), but since Israel rejected the Messiah, the Kingdom was postponed until Christ’s second coming.

Representative Verse:

Acts 1:6 (NASB):
"So, when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, 'Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?'"

Interpretation: Dispensationalists argue that Jesus did not deny the future restoration of Israel, indicating a postponed physical Kingdom.

Critique:

Critics argue that this view underemphasizes the spiritual presence of the Kingdom through the church and the transformative work of Christ in believers’ lives now.

2. Covenant Theology: The Kingdom is Now
Covenant theologians typically emphasize the “already” nature of the Kingdom, seeing it primarily as a spiritual reality manifested in the church.

Key Beliefs:

The Kingdom of God began with Christ’s first coming, where He inaugurated the new covenant (Mark 1:15).

The church is the visible representation of the Kingdom on earth, advancing through evangelism and discipleship.

The Kingdom will be fully consummated at Christ’s return, but believers already experience its power through the Holy Spirit.

Representative Verse:

Colossians 1:13 (NASB):
"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son."

Interpretation: The believer’s current status is one of being in the Kingdom, signifying that it is a present spiritual reality.

Critique:

This view may sometimes over-spiritualize the Kingdom, potentially downplaying eschatological passages that speak of a future physical reign.

3. Inaugurated Eschatology: A Balance of Both
This framework, often associated with George Eldon Ladd, holds that the Kingdom is both already present and not yet fulfilled.

Key Beliefs:

Jesus’ ministry initiated the Kingdom, and believers participate in it now through the power of the Spirit (Luke 17:21).

The final consummation will occur at Christ’s return, when the Kingdom’s fullness will be established (Revelation 21:1–4).

This view captures the tension between present spiritual reality and future physical fulfillment.

Representative Verse:

Luke 11:20 (NASB):
"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Interpretation: The miracles of Jesus are signs that the Kingdom has broken into the present age.

Critique:

Some argue that this approach can be theologically complex, as it requires holding two seemingly contradictory truths in balance.

4. Amillennialism: Spiritual Realization with Future Consummation
Amillennialists see the Kingdom as primarily spiritual, with Christ reigning now from heaven, and a final consummation at His second coming.

Key Beliefs:

The Kingdom of God is a present reality inaugurated at Christ’s first coming (Matthew 12:28).

Believers live in the tension of the already and not yet, experiencing spiritual blessings now but awaiting the ultimate victory over evil.

The Millennium in Revelation 20 is symbolic of the current church age, not a literal thousand-year reign.

Representative Verse:

Revelation 20:4 (NASB):
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them..."

Interpretation: The reign of Christ and the saints is viewed as a present, spiritual rule rather than a future earthly reign.

Critique:

Some criticize Amillennialism for allegorizing prophetic texts, thereby losing the sense of an actual future physical kingdom.

5. Theological Implications:
Salvation and Sanctification: Inaugurated eschatology impacts how believers view their present identity in Christ. They live as citizens of heaven now (Philippians 3:20) while awaiting full redemption.

Mission and Evangelism: Understanding the Kingdom as present motivates believers to spread the gospel, as they are already participating in God’s reign (Matthew 28:18–20).

Suffering and Hope: The “not yet” aspect brings hope amid suffering, as believers look forward to the day when every wrong will be made right (Revelation 21:4).


The concept of the Kingdom of God as "already, but not yet" is interpreted differently across theological frameworks.

Dispensationalism leans toward a future physical kingdom, Covenant Theology emphasizes a present spiritual reality, Inaugurated Eschatology holds both aspects in tension, and Amillennialism sees the Kingdom as spiritual now with a future consummation.
The balanced view (Inaugurated Eschatology) aligns well with the New Testament’s portrayal of Jesus inaugurating the Kingdom while pointing to a future completion.

And I read somewhere else that a believer upon death will NOT be with the Lord Jesus Christ immediately--your take?

J.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Some problems here Eternally-grateful

Dispensationalism: The Future Kingdom Focus
Dispensationalists often emphasize the “not yet” aspect of the Kingdom, seeing it primarily as a future physical reality rather than a present spiritual one.

Key Beliefs-

The Kingdom will be fully realized during the Millennial Reign (Revelation 20:1–6), where Christ will physically rule on earth from Jerusalem.

The present age is seen as a church age, distinct from the Kingdom age, which is still to come.

The Kingdom was offered to Israel during Jesus’ ministry (Matthew 4:17), but since Israel rejected the Messiah, the Kingdom was postponed until Christ’s second coming.

Representative Verse:

Acts 1:6 (NASB):
"So, when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, 'Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?'"

Interpretation: Dispensationalists argue that Jesus did not deny the future restoration of Israel, indicating a postponed physical Kingdom.

Critique:

Critics argue that this view underemphasizes the spiritual presence of the Kingdom through the church and the transformative work of Christ in believers’ lives now.

2. Covenant Theology: The Kingdom is Now
Covenant theologians typically emphasize the “already” nature of the Kingdom, seeing it primarily as a spiritual reality manifested in the church.

Key Beliefs:

The Kingdom of God began with Christ’s first coming, where He inaugurated the new covenant (Mark 1:15).

The church is the visible representation of the Kingdom on earth, advancing through evangelism and discipleship.

The Kingdom will be fully consummated at Christ’s return, but believers already experience its power through the Holy Spirit.

Representative Verse:

Colossians 1:13 (NASB):
"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son."

Interpretation: The believer’s current status is one of being in the Kingdom, signifying that it is a present spiritual reality.

Critique:

This view may sometimes over-spiritualize the Kingdom, potentially downplaying eschatological passages that speak of a future physical reign.

3. Inaugurated Eschatology: A Balance of Both
This framework, often associated with George Eldon Ladd, holds that the Kingdom is both already present and not yet fulfilled.

Key Beliefs:

Jesus’ ministry initiated the Kingdom, and believers participate in it now through the power of the Spirit (Luke 17:21).

The final consummation will occur at Christ’s return, when the Kingdom’s fullness will be established (Revelation 21:1–4).

This view captures the tension between present spiritual reality and future physical fulfillment.

Representative Verse:

Luke 11:20 (NASB):
"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Interpretation: The miracles of Jesus are signs that the Kingdom has broken into the present age.

Critique:

Some argue that this approach can be theologically complex, as it requires holding two seemingly contradictory truths in balance.

4. Amillennialism: Spiritual Realization with Future Consummation
Amillennialists see the Kingdom as primarily spiritual, with Christ reigning now from heaven, and a final consummation at His second coming.

Key Beliefs:

The Kingdom of God is a present reality inaugurated at Christ’s first coming (Matthew 12:28).

Believers live in the tension of the already and not yet, experiencing spiritual blessings now but awaiting the ultimate victory over evil.

The Millennium in Revelation 20 is symbolic of the current church age, not a literal thousand-year reign.

Representative Verse:

Revelation 20:4 (NASB):
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them..."

Interpretation: The reign of Christ and the saints is viewed as a present, spiritual rule rather than a future earthly reign.

Critique:

Some criticize Amillennialism for allegorizing prophetic texts, thereby losing the sense of an actual future physical kingdom.

5. Theological Implications:
Salvation and Sanctification: Inaugurated eschatology impacts how believers view their present identity in Christ. They live as citizens of heaven now (Philippians 3:20) while awaiting full redemption.

Mission and Evangelism: Understanding the Kingdom as present motivates believers to spread the gospel, as they are already participating in God’s reign (Matthew 28:18–20).

Suffering and Hope: The “not yet” aspect brings hope amid suffering, as believers look forward to the day when every wrong will be made right (Revelation 21:4).


The concept of the Kingdom of God as "already, but not yet" is interpreted differently across theological frameworks.

Dispensationalism leans toward a future physical kingdom, Covenant Theology emphasizes a present spiritual reality, Inaugurated Eschatology holds both aspects in tension, and Amillennialism sees the Kingdom as spiritual now with a future consummation.
The balanced view (Inaugurated Eschatology) aligns well with the New Testament’s portrayal of Jesus inaugurating the Kingdom while pointing to a future completion.

And I read somewhere else that a believer upon death will NOT be with the Lord Jesus Christ immediately--your take?

J.

Before you go on a rant

I believe John the kingdom of heaven is at hand

I am also a dispensationalism I believe Jesus will physically rule on David’s throne for 1000 years as prophesied

 

[Johann!@#]

Before you go on a rant

I believe John the kingdom of heaven is at hand

I am also a dispensationalism I believe Jesus will physically rule on David’s throne for 1000 years as prophesied

Eternally-grateful

No rant, and you clearly did not read my post, otherwise you would have answered my question directed to you.

J.

 

[for_his_glory]

This interpretation appears to render Jesus' words as redundant - that he is saying there will be believers around till the end when he comes - but we already know that because He has just talked about gathering his elect (v.31).

Also, Jesus' confession that He does not know the day or hour is in line with interpreting 'this generation' as the generation that witnesses the abomination. Though he does not know that day or hour, he does know the rough time period - one generation.

When you read Matthew 24:21, 29-31 and Rev 19:11-21 it is very clear that Jesus does not return until after the greatest tribulation that ever was nor will ever be again after the son of perdition/false prophet/last antichrist will cause all who do not trust in Christ to take the mark of this beast.

Where does Jesus say that?

The cornerstone for the new Temple was brought to Jerusalem on May 21, 2009 and still remains on the street. "Jerusalem Day" in 1967 was to celebrate the liberation of the Temple Mount, but there is a problem there as the Doom of the Rock sits on the Temple Mount. Baruch Ben-Yosel , chairman of the Movement to Restore the Temple, made it clear that the Temple had to be built in the exact spot where the Dome of the Rock sits.

There will never be a third Temple built by hands, Acts 7:48; Acts 17:24. When the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom after Jesus gave up the ghost, Matthew 27:50, 51, this symbolized that the sacrifice of Jesus and the shedding of his blood was now made for the atonement of sin and that all, Jew and Gentile, can come before Him as He is the only way to the Father, John 14:6.

There is no more veil for the Priest to enter into the Holy of Holies once a year to make atonement for Israel's sin nor is there any more animal sacrifices as we are no longer under the Old Covenant nor the preaching of the law, but are under a new and better covenant of Gods grace through Christ Jesus as our High Priest, Hebrews 4:14-16. Jesus prophesied of the Temple being desolate and that no one will see Him again until His time comes meaning when He returns on the last day, Matthew 24:1, 2; Luke 13:34, 35, John 6:40.

God no longer dwells in a Temple made by hands and this is why God left it desolate all these years when it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Now the Dome of the Rock sits on part of the Temple Mount and was built around 692 AD. The Muslims will never give it over to Israel, plus the Dome of the Rock is being refurbished for the son of perdition (not a Muslim man) to come and sit on his throne and will cause a great falling away from truth, Isaiah 14:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.

Jesus fulfilled everything the temple stood for being the last sacrificial lamb taking away all the sin of the world. God no longer dwells in a temple made by hands, Acts 7:48-50; 17:22-31; Hebrews 10:7-18

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The church, (body of Christ) is the temple where God dwells by His Holy Spirit, Zechariah 6:9-15 (prophecy of coming Messiah); 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; Ephesians 2:19-22, Galatians 3:19-29.

In 70AD the second temple was destroyed and put an end to the temple made by hands and the sacrifices made there. The Temple of God now dwells in all who are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

 

[Kermos]

C.S. Lewis, author and lay Anglican theologian wrote the following (from 'The world's last night and other essays' - 1960):

"Say what you like" we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are In heaven, neither the Son, but the Father"

I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus. What do you say?

Hello Wheat Field,

You asked "Is Matthew 24:34 grounds for skepticism" as the title of this thread, and you answered your question with "I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus" in the original post. I would like to take a little time with you about this.

Originally, the book of Matthew was a continuous composition, that is, Matthew wrote the book without chapter and verse numbers, so let's review the context surrounding what is now referred to as Matthew 24:34:

​

Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.​

(Matthew 24:32-35)​

​

Christ sets the stage for "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matthew 24:34) at the beginning of the paragraph with "learn the parable from the fig tree" (Matthew 24:32).

This "parable", like "lesson", refers to the earlier incident:

​

Now in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry. Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, “No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you.” And at once the fig tree withered.​

​

Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, “How did the fig tree wither all at once?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."​

(Matthew 21:18-22)​

​

The wonderful things which take place (Matthew 24:34) is believers bearing fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) - a good fig tree bears fruit from it's branches.

Lord Jesus is talking about believers (this generation) bearing the fruit of the Spirit which includes faith (belief).

This generation refers to believers who are the Body of Christ (Matthew 26:26, Ephesians 1:22-23), and I am part of the Body of Christ, so this generation still did not pass away as of this writing.

The time of the Gentiles has nearly expired (Matthew 24:15-28, Luke 31:24), so the time of revelation of when "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:29) is fast approaching.

Skeptical is another way of saying unbelief, and you brought up a passage surrounded by details about destruction in unbelief and life in Christ.

Jesus is the Master Orator. Emmanuel is the Son whom the Father has sent (John 6:29). Evil men twist Christ's sayings in order to claim He says that which He does not convey. The day is coming when it will be abundantly clear to all that No one is good except God alone (Mark 10:18).

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9:10), and Christ is the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

 

[for_his_glory]

There are two ways to observe

1. What do the teach. Do they point to self or point to christ
2 if they point to Christ. Scripture says you can know them by their fruuts

So in our discussion. You keep
Claiming you must “endure till the end”. Ie. You must work. enduring is not easy. Secondly what does it mean. Endure to what? How good is good enough? How bad is so bad you fail to endure. What works? In any case. You’re pointing to self. Your work of enduring not christ”s work on the cross and his promise to keep you from falling

The Catholic Church teaches a works based gospel a sacramental system of works one must do if they want to assure salvation. Water baptism is just one of those merit based works they claim you must do

I am judging your gospel. Not you. Again you want to endure and work to get saved feel free, we have free will

Otherwise Try to interpret the word as written. He is speaking of physical life during the tribulation period. (The Catholic Church does not believe this is a future event either. So it’s like double error

Now if you don’t believe you must endure it be immersed in water. Forgive me for misunderstanding

First I am not a Catholic as I am Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit. There is much in this life we must endure as we trust Jesus in all things this world (Satan) will bring against us in order to steal our faith in Christ. My Gospel is that of the Gospel of Christ Jesus as you are judging Christ and not me for I only give what is already written in the Bible as I use the KJV. Maybe you need to go back and study Matthew 24 as Jesus answered the three questions the Disciples asked Him, Matthew 24:3.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Eternally-grateful

No rant, and you clearly did not read my post, otherwise you would have answered my question directed to you.

J.

No I did not read.

You said there was an issue with dispensationalsim.

so I did not read your post.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

First I am not a Catholic as I am Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit. There is much in this life we must endure as we trust Jesus in all things this world (Satan) will bring against us in order to steal our faith in Christ. My Gospel is that of the Gospel of Christ Jesus as you are judging Christ and not me for I only give what is already written in the Bible as I use the KJV. Maybe you need to go back and study Matthew 24 as Jesus answered the three questions the Disciples asked Him, Matthew 24:3.

Yes he did

When will the temple be tore down (70 AD)
what is the sign of the end of the age
and what will be the sign of your return.

Nothing in Jesus response has anythign to do with anyone getting to heaven

If you think you must endure till the end to be saved eternally

Then you are not trusting in christ. Your trusting your endurance or your ability to endure

 

[Johann!@#]

No I did not read.

You said there was an issue with dispensationalsim.

so I did not read your post.

Miscommunication and misunderstandings often arise when we don't take the time to read carefully and thoughtfully. Sometimes, a perceived attack on dispensationalism-or any theological position--is not intended as such, and jumping to conclusions without understanding the context can hinder edification.

As believers, we are called to approach one another with patience and humility. James 1:19 (NASB) reminds us: "This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger." Taking the time to listen and understand before responding helps maintain unity and prevents unnecessary conflict.

We are mature adults here, not children pouting over who is right or wrong. Let’s strive to build one another up rather than tear each other down. As Ephesians 4:29 (NASB) instructs: "Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear."

Shalom.

J.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Miscommunication and misunderstandings often arise when we don't take the time to read carefully and thoughtfully. Sometimes, a perceived attack on dispensationalism-or any theological position--is not intended as such, and jumping to conclusions without understanding the context can hinder edification.

As believers, we are called to approach one another with patience and humility. James 1:19 (NASB) reminds us: "This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger." Taking the time to listen and understand before responding helps maintain unity and prevents unnecessary conflict.

We are mature adults here, not children pouting over who is right or wrong. Let’s strive to build one another up rather than tear each other down. As Ephesians 4:29 (NASB) instructs: "Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear."

Shalom.

J.

1. I usually do not read long posts
2. If I misunderstood you please forgive me

 

[Johann!@#]

Yes he did

When will the temple be tore down (70 AD)
what is the sign of the end of the age
and what will be the sign of your return.

Nothing in Jesus response has anythign to do with anyone getting to heaven

If you think you must endure till the end to be saved eternally

Then you are not trusting in christ. Your trusting your endurance or your ability to endure

What's wrong with perseverance/endurance?
PERSEVERE

The biblical doctrines related to the Christian life are difficult to explain because they are presented in typically eastern dialectical pairs (see SPECIAL TOPIC: EASTERN LITERATURE [biblical paradoxes]). These pairs seem contradictory, yet both are biblical. Western Christians have tended to choose one truth and ignore or depreciate the opposite truth. Let me illustrate.

Is salvation an initial decision to trust Christ or a lifetime commitment to discipleship?
Is salvation an election by means of grace from a sovereign God or mankind's believing and repentant response to a divine offer?
Is salvation, once received, impossible to lose, or is there a need for continual diligence?
 The issue of perseverance has been contentious throughout church history. The problem begins with apparently conflicting passages of the NT:

texts on assurance
statements of Jesus (John 6:37; 10:28-29)
statements of Paul (Rom. 8:35-39; Eph. 1:13; 2:5,8-9; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 2 Thess. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18)
statements of Peter ( 1 Pet. 1:4-5)
texts on the need for perseverance
statements of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13; John 8:31; 15:4-10; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21)
statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)
statements of the author of Hebrews (Heb. 2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:4-12; 10:26-27)
statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9)
statement of the Father (Rev. 21:7)
Biblical salvation issues from the love, mercy, and grace of a sovereign Triune God. No human can be saved without the initiation of the Spirit (cf. John 6:44,65). Deity comes first and sets the agenda, but demands that humans must respond in faith and repentance, both initially and continually. God works with mankind in a covenant relationship. There are privileges and responsibilities! See SPECIAL TOPIC: COVENANT and SPECIAL TOPIC: KEEP

Salvation is offered to all humans (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Jesus' death dealt with the fallen creation's sin problem (cf. Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). God has provided a way and wants all those made in His image to respond to His love and provision in Jesus. See SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN

If you would like to read more on this subject from a non-Calvinistic perspective, see

Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, Eerdmans, 1981 (pp. 348-365)
Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God, Bethany Fellowship, 1969
Robert Shank, Life in the Son, Westcott, 1961
The Bible is addressing two different problems in this area: (1) taking assurance as a license to live fruitless, selfish lives and (2) encouraging those who struggle with ministry and personal sin. The problem is that the wrong groups are taking the wrong message and building theological systems on limited biblical passages. Some Christians desperately need the message of assurance, while others need the stern warnings! Which group are you in?

There is a historical theological controversy involving Augustine versus Pelagius and Calvin versus Arminius (semi-Pelagian). The issue involves the question of salvation: if one is truly saved, must he persevere in faith and fruitfulness?

The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God's sovereignty and keeping-power (John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 John 5:13,18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5) and VERB TENSES like the perfect passive participles of Eph. 2:5,8.

The Arminians line up behind those biblical texts that warn believers to "hold on," "hold out," or "continue" (Matt. 10:22; 24:9-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 6:9; Rev. 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7). I personally do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are applicable, but many Arminians use them as a warning against apostasy.

The parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 addresses the issue of apparent belief, as does John 8:31-59. As Calvinists quote the PERFECT TENSE VERBS used to describe salvation, the Arminians quote the present tense passages like 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15.

This is a perfect example of how theological systems abuse the proof-texting method of interpretation.

Usually a guiding principle or chief text is used to construct a theological grid by which all other texts are viewed. Be careful of grids from any source.

They come from western logic, not revelation. The Bible is an eastern book. It presents truth in tension-filled, seemingly paradoxical pairs. Christians are meant to affirm both and live within the tension. The NT presents both the security of the believer and the demand for continuing faith and godliness.

Christianity is an initial response of repentance and faith followed by a continuing response of repentance and faith. Salvation is not a product (a ticket to heaven or a fire insurance policy), but a relationship. It is a decision and discipleship. It is described in the NT in all VERB TENSES:

AORIST (completed action), Acts 15:11; Rom. 8:24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5
PERFECT perfect (completed action with continuing results), Eph. 2:5,8
PRESENT (continuing action), 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15
FUTUREfuture (future events or certain events), Rom. 5:8,10; 10:9; 1 Cor. 3:15; Phil. 1:28; 1 Thess. 5:8-9; Heb. 1:14; 9:28

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE NEED TO PERSEVERE

Need to Persevere -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

How do you know you are right or she is wrong?

J.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

What's wrong with perseverance/endurance?
PERSEVERE

If your doing it to merit salvation. or keep from losing it. There is alot wrong. Because Your trusting in self not God

Again, I do not like to really read long posts.. So I will just answer your question

 

[Johann!@#]

If your doing it to merit salvation. or keep from losing it. There is alot wrong. Because Your trusting in self not God

Again, I do not like to really read long posts.. So I will just answer your question

No, wrong again, read carefully, thoughtfully, and---

"But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and respect."

This verse emphasizes being prepared to explain your faith with both conviction and humility.

The Greek word for "defense" here is ἀπολογία (apologia), meaning a reasoned argument or justification.

I’m not saying you do this, but it seems like a lot of people just quote scripture without any commentary, exegesis, or proper hermeneutics--nothing at all. You ask a question, and they just throw out two or three verses without any explanation.

All good between us brother--"teething problems", noting serious Eternally-grateful

J.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes he did

When will the temple be tore down (70 AD)
what is the sign of the end of the age
and what will be the sign of your return.

Nothing in Jesus response has anythign to do with anyone getting to heaven

If you think you must endure till the end to be saved eternally

Then you are not trusting in christ. Your trusting your endurance or your ability to endure

My endurance comes by the faith of Christ to know He will always bring us out victorious as He promised if we believe and trust in Him. There is nothing I can do of myself separate from Christ Jesus. Whether we live, we will live for Christ and whether we die we die unto Christ as we will always be with Christ.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Think about the words Jesus spoke "unto the end" and what is meant by what He said.