Is Matthew 24:34 grounds for skepticism?

[Wheat Field]

C.S. Lewis, author and lay Anglican theologian wrote the following (from 'The world's last night and other essays' - 1960):

"Say what you like" we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are In heaven, neither the Son, but the Father"

I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus. What do you say?

 

[Wheat Field]

It's been a while but I have continued to think deeply about a solution to this issue and wanted to post my thoughts.

I want to ask: to whom is Jesus speaking to in verse 15 of Matthew 24? Is he speaking to his disciples who have asked him (v.3) what the sign of his coming will be and when the world will end? Or is it possible that he is speaking to a future generation?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Up till that verse, Jesus talks of future, fairly non-specific events such as false Christs, rumours of wars, nations and kingdoms rising against each other, persecutions, earthquakes, famines and pestilence. But at verse 15 he is rather specific - certainly at least, it is clear that he is talking about some kind of desecration standing in the holy place.

This appears to be the watershed event and Jesus underlines it thus by warning of a tribulation like no other, such that Judeans should flee immediately.

What follows is further foretelling of events that come after that tribulation...and, note, he is still talking to those that have witnessed the 'abomination' described.

So when he gets to verse 34's 'this generation', I'll put my neck out and suggest that no damage is done to the text if we replace 'this generation' with 'the generation that sees the abomination'.

Thus we have:
Verily I say unto you, the generation that sees a desecration standing in the holy place shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This did not happen in 70AD. The Roman siege lasted about 5 months and they destroyed the Temple and razed most of the city.

 

[Randy]

It's been a while but I have continued to think deeply about a solution to this issue and wanted to post my thoughts.

I want to ask: to whom is Jesus speaking to in verse 15 of Matthew 24? Is he speaking to his disciples who have asked him (v.3) what the sign of his coming will be and when the world will end? Or is it possible that he is speaking to a future generation?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Up till that verse, Jesus talks of future, fairly non-specific events such as false Christs, rumours of wars, nations and kingdoms rising against each other, persecutions, earthquakes, famines and pestilence. But at verse 15 he is rather specific - certainly at least, it is clear that he is talking about some kind of desecration standing in the holy place.

This appears to be the watershed event and Jesus underlines it thus by warning of a tribulation like no other, such that Judeans should flee immediately.

What follows is further foretelling of events that come after that tribulation...and, note, he is still talking to those that have witnessed the 'abomination' described.

So when he gets to verse 34's 'this generation', I'll put my neck out and suggest that no damage is done to the text if we replace 'this generation' with 'the generation that sees the abomination'.

Thus we have:
Verily I say unto you, the generation that sees a desecration standing in the holy place shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This did not happen in 70AD. The Roman siege lasted about 5 months and they destroyed the Temple and razed most of the city.

I agree a 1st century resurrection is not a possible answer.
The lawless one who declares himself God in the temple is not destroyed by man but by the coming of the Lord.

2Thess 2
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

2Thess 2
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

The bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness.
Rev 16:15
Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.

A sign that can't be mistaken. REV 11 1260 days as I read.

The harvest day. - the last day
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn

 

[Wheat Field]

I agree a 1st century resurrection is not a possible answer.
The lawless one who declares himself God in the temple is not destroyed by man but by the coming of the Lord.

2Thess 2
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

2Thess 2
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

The bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness.
Rev 16:15
Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.

A sign that can't be mistaken. REV 11 1260 days as I read.

The harvest day. - the last day
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn

Thanks for this Randy...yes good points.

The niggle I have (with my explanation) is that the Temple was destroyed in 70AD - and, indeed, not one stone was left upon another - but Jesus appears to have had no knowledge that that would not be the end of the world and the time of his second coming. It also means that he had no knowledge that a rebuilding of the Temple is now necessary for his prophecy to come true.

And the confusion in the wake of such is pretty bad for Christian integrity imho.

In his defence, he acknowledges that he does not know the exact day or hour - so maybe not knowing details about the Temple is in line with that.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

C.S. Lewis, author and lay Anglican theologian wrote the following (from 'The world's last night and other essays' - 1960):

"Say what you like" we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are In heaven, neither the Son, but the Father"

I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus. What do you say?

"this generation" refers to the generation that is alive when these events take place.

So it should not cause you or anyone else to be skeptical

 

[Wheat Field]

"this generation" refers to the generation that is alive when these events take place.

So it should not cause you or anyone else to be skeptical

But such a view is not a consensus among Christians - something which is deeply damaging to the efficacy of the gospel. Though C.S. Lewis remained a Christian - that he said the verse was embarrassing demonstrates such damage.

Please tell me - what about Matthew 16:28
“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Again, this looks awkward.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

But such a view is not a consensus among Christians -

Look at history. History shows that the majority rule is usually in error

Now if you want to follow them. that is fine, do not let me stop you

something which is deeply damaging to the efficacy of the gospel. Though C.S. Lewis remained a Christian - that he said the verse was embarrassing demonstrates such damage.

Please tell me - what about Matthew 16:28
“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Again, this looks awkward.

No not really. They witnessed the resurrections of Christ. so they saw the kingdom come.

I believe Judas is the only one who did not see it. because he committed suicide

 

[for_his_glory]

This generation, Matthew 24:34 means generational line of those who follow Christ and endure all things until the end of days and Christ returns. Generation can refer to a group of people, a period of time, or even a lineage

Matthew, Mark and Luke are three disciples who wrote of the same witness as they testify of what Jesus gave as answers to the three questions the disciples asked Him. When shall these things be? What shall be the sign of they coming and the end of the world? Matthew 24:3

The first thing Jesus proceeds to tell them is that there would never be another physical Temple of God built again and then proceeds to speak of the beginning of sorrows, Matthew 24:4-8, Rev 6:1-17, and not to be deceived nor be troubled for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:9-26 Jesus tells the disciples of the afflicting trials and tribulations that the abomination of desolation's that Daniel spoke of, Daniel Chapter 7, 9, 11; Rev Chapter 13, that they must endure all the persecutions even to death while preaching the Gospel, Matthew 10:28, during the six seals, seven trumpets and seven vial judgments until Christ returns.

Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times, but God's covenant promises stand forever given to all who will come to Him by His mercy and grace through faith and believe in His only begotten Son Christ Jesus, John 3:16-17.

Never go by a majority rule teaching, but search the scriptures for what has already been written as the Holy Spirit will teach you all truths.

 

[Johann!@#]

This generation, Matthew 24:34 means generational line of those who follow Christ and endure all things until the end of days and Christ returns. Generation can refer to a group of people, a period of time, or even a lineage

Matthew, Mark and Luke are three disciples who wrote of the same witness as they testify of what Jesus gave as answers to the three questions the disciples asked Him. When shall these things be? What shall be the sign of they coming and the end of the world? Matthew 24:3

The first thing Jesus proceeds to tell them is that there would never be another physical Temple of God built again and then proceeds to speak of the beginning of sorrows, Matthew 24:4-8, Rev 6:1-17, and not to be deceived nor be troubled for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:9-26 Jesus tells the disciples of the afflicting trials and tribulations that the abomination of desolation's that Daniel spoke of, Daniel Chapter 7, 9, 11; Rev Chapter 13, that they must endure all the persecutions even to death while preaching the Gospel, Matthew 10:28, during the six seals, seven trumpets and seven vial judgments until Christ returns.

Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times, but God's covenant promises stand forever given to all who will come to Him by His mercy and grace through faith and believe in His only begotten Son Christ Jesus, John 3:16-17.

Never go by a majority rule teaching, but search the scriptures for what has already been written as the Holy Spirit will teach you all truths.

Timeline of Jerusalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Johann.

 

[for_his_glory]

Timeline of Jerusalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Johann.

Thank you for sharing this.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

This generation, Matthew 24:34 means generational line of those who follow Christ and endure all things until the end of days and Christ returns. Generation can refer to a group of people, a period of time, or even a lineage

Context of this is the great tribulation period. Not all people of all times.

Jesus would not contradict himself and say we must endure till the end to get to heaven.

if this is required. heaven will be empty

 

[for_his_glory]

Context of this is the great tribulation period. Not all people of all times.

Jesus would not contradict himself and say we must endure till the end to get to heaven.

if this is required. heaven will be empty

According to these scriptures no one that has died have gone up to Heaven. It will not be until Christ returns again on the last day that those who are Christ own, either in the grave or still alive at His coming, will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air and will spend eternity with Him.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Johann!@#]

According to these scriptures no one that has died have gone up to Heaven. It will not be until Christ returns again on the last day that those who are Christ own, either in the grave or still alive at His coming, will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air and will spend eternity with Him.

I'm going to push a little for_his_glory--

Luke 23:43 (ESV)
"And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.'"

Context: Jesus speaks to the repentant thief on the cross.

Greek Phrase:

σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ (sēmeron met’ emou esē) - "Today you will be with me"

Key Verb:

ἔσῃ (esē) - Future Middle Indicative, 2nd Person Singular - "you will be"

Insight: Jesus clearly states that the thief would be with Him that very day in paradise, affirming the immediacy of being with the Lord after death.

2. 2 Corinthians 5:8 (ESV)
"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

Greek Phrase:

ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν Κύριον (ekdēmēsai ek tou sōmatos kai endēmēsai pros ton Kyrion) - "to be away from the body and at home with the Lord"

Key Verbs:

ἐκδημῆσαι (ekdēmēsai) - Aorist Active Infinitive - "to be away"

ἐνδημῆσαι (endēmēsai) - Aorist Active Infinitive - "to be at home"

Insight: Paul expresses confidence that being absent from the body (through death) means being present with the Lord.

3. Philippians 1:23 (ESV)
"I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better."

Greek Phrase:

ἀναλῦσαι καὶ σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι (analysai kai syn Christō einai) - "to depart and be with Christ"

Key Verbs:

ἀναλῦσαι (analysai) - Aorist Active Infinitive - "to depart"

εἶναι (einai) - Present Infinitive - "to be"

Insight: Paul expresses a desire to depart (die) and immediately be with Christ, indicating that death for a believer results in immediate presence with the Lord.

4. Revelation 6:9-11 (ESV)
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice..."

Greek Phrase:

ψυχὰς τῶν ἐσφαγμένων (psychas tōn esphagmenōn) - "souls of those who had been slain"

Key Verb:

ἐσφαγμένων (esphagmenōn) - Perfect Passive Participle, Genitive Plural - "who had been slain"

Insight: The souls of martyrs are depicted as alive and conscious in heaven, indicating a continued existence after death and direct presence before God.

5. Revelation 7:9 (ESV)
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb..."

Greek Phrase:

ἑστῶτες ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου (hestōtes enōpion tou thronou) - "standing before the throne"

Key Verb:

ἑστῶτες (hestōtes) - Perfect Active Participle, Nominative Plural - "standing"

Insight: The passage describes redeemed individuals from every nation standing in the presence of the Lamb, suggesting that those who have died in Christ are immediately in His presence.


Scripture consistently teaches that believers, upon death, are immediately in the presence of the Lord. Luke 23:43 shows the thief being with Jesus in paradise on the same day of his death. Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23 emphasize a desire to depart from the body and be with Christ. Revelation passages further demonstrate that the souls of believers are present before God’s throne after death, affirming the immediacy of being with the Lord upon departing from the body.


John 14:2-3 (ESV)
"In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

Greek Verbs:

παραλήμψομαι (paralēmpsomai) - Future Middle Indicative, 1st Person Singular - "I will take"

ἦτε (ēte) - Present Active Subjunctive, 2nd Person Plural - "you may be"

Insight: While this passage primarily speaks of Jesus’ return, it reflects the ultimate goal of being with Him. It implies that Jesus’ preparation is for believers to be with Him immediately upon transition from this life.

7. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 (ESV)
"For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep."

Greek Verbs:

ἄξει (axei) - Future Active Indicative, 3rd Person Singular - "will bring"

Insight: This verse assures that those who have died in Christ will be brought with Him, suggesting that they are already with the Lord and will accompany Him at His return.

8. Philippians 3:20-21 (ESV)
"But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body..."

Greek Verbs:

ὑπάρχει (hyparchei) - Present Active Indicative, 3rd Person Singular - "is" (indicating current citizenship)

μετασχηματίσει (metaschēmatisei) - Future Active Indicative, 3rd Person Singular - "will transform"

Insight: Although this passage emphasizes bodily transformation at the resurrection, it also highlights that our citizenship is already in heaven, reinforcing the idea that the believer’s spiritual state after death is immediately in the heavenly realm.

9. Hebrews 12:22-23 (ESV)
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect."

Greek Verbs:

προσεληλύθατε (proselēlythate) - Perfect Active Indicative, 2nd Person Plural - "you have come"

τετελειωμένων (teteleiōmenōn) - Perfect Passive Participle, Genitive Plural - "made perfect"

Insight: This verse indicates that believers, as part of the heavenly assembly, include the spirits of the righteous made perfect, suggesting that those who have died in Christ are already present with God.

10. Revelation 14:13 (ESV)
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying, 'Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Blessed indeed,' says the Spirit, 'that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!'"

Greek Verbs:

ἀποθνῄσκοντες (apothnēskontes) - Present Active Participle, Nominative Plural - "who die"

ἀναπαήσονται (anapaēsontai) - Future Middle Indicative, 3rd Person Plural - "will rest"

Insight: The dead in Christ are described as resting from their labors, indicating a state of peace and presence with the Lord immediately after death.

11. 2 Corinthians 5:1 (ESV)
"For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Greek Verbs:

καταλυθῇ (kataluthē) - Aorist Passive Subjunctive, 3rd Person Singular - "is destroyed"

ἔχομεν (echomen) - Present Active Indicative, 1st Person Plural - "we have"

Insight: The language of immediate possession (present tense: "we have") of a heavenly dwelling upon the destruction of the earthly body suggests an immediate transition to the heavenly realm.


The New Testament consistently affirms that believers, upon death, are immediately with the Lord. Jesus’ words to the thief on the cross (Luke 23:43) and Paul’s confident declaration (2 Corinthians 5:8) both underscore the direct presence with Christ upon death. The "spirits of the righteous made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23) and the rest from labor (Revelation 14:13) further support the view that death for believers is not an intermediate unconscious state but rather immediate fellowship with Christ.

Thanks.

Johann.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

According to these scriptures no one that has died have gone up to Heaven. It will not be until Christ returns again on the last day that those who are Christ own, either in the grave or still alive at His coming, will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air and will spend eternity with Him.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

lol

ok

You want to save yourself by enduring

feel fre

Good luck..

God saved me, and I will keep my faith in him, not in how Good I am, or if I endure or not

Sinless perfection is Gods standard.

You want to save yourself. there is your standard..

My bible tells me we have all sinned and fall short of this standard.

If you think you are above it.. welll

 

[Alfred Persson]

C.S. Lewis, author and lay Anglican theologian wrote the following (from 'The world's last night and other essays' - 1960):

"Say what you like" we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are In heaven, neither the Son, but the Father"

I will admit that this issue makes me skeptical about Jesus. What do you say?

First Christians never claimed they would be alive when Christ comes a second time, and Jesus often hinted a long delay would intervene between His first and second coming. So its a choice we all must make. Shall we insist the disciples claimed (rather than hoped) Christ would appear in the 1st century, or accept Christ and the disciple are being misinterpreted, as you did with "this generation".

The generation that sees all the signs of Christ's coming, shall not pass till all things be done. The disciples did not see the end of the times of the gentiles.

24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; (Lk. 21:24-25 NKJ)

Nor did they see the events of verse 25.

 

[for_his_glory]

lol

ok

You want to save yourself by enduring

feel fre

Good luck..

God saved me, and I will keep my faith in him, not in how Good I am, or if I endure or not

Sinless perfection is Gods standard.

You want to save yourself. there is your standard..

My bible tells me we have all sinned and fall short of this standard.

If you think you are above it.. welll

How can you judge me without knowing who I am! You really went out to left field on this as I said nothing of what you are saying here.

No one can save themselves without Christ who is our redeemer, Matthew 19:26; John 3:5-7.

Sinless perfection is a false doctrine as none of us are perfect yet, but we strive for that perfection that is in Christ, Philippians 1:6.

No man is above His master in whom is Christ Jesus, John 13:16.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm going to push a little for_his_glory--

Luke 23:43 (ESV)
"And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.'"

Context: Jesus speaks to the repentant thief on the cross.

Greek Phrase:

σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ (sēmeron met’ emou esē) - "Today you will be with me"

Key Verb:

ἔσῃ (esē) - Future Middle Indicative, 2nd Person Singular - "you will be"

Insight: Jesus clearly states that the thief would be with Him that very day in paradise, affirming the immediacy of being with the Lord after death.

2. 2 Corinthians 5:8 (ESV)
"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

Greek Phrase:

ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν Κύριον (ekdēmēsai ek tou sōmatos kai endēmēsai pros ton Kyrion) - "to be away from the body and at home with the Lord"

Key Verbs:

ἐκδημῆσαι (ekdēmēsai) - Aorist Active Infinitive - "to be away"

ἐνδημῆσαι (endēmēsai) - Aorist Active Infinitive - "to be at home"

Insight: Paul expresses confidence that being absent from the body (through death) means being present with the Lord.

3. Philippians 1:23 (ESV)
"I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better."

Greek Phrase:

ἀναλῦσαι καὶ σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι (analysai kai syn Christō einai) - "to depart and be with Christ"

Key Verbs:

ἀναλῦσαι (analysai) - Aorist Active Infinitive - "to depart"

εἶναι (einai) - Present Infinitive - "to be"

Insight: Paul expresses a desire to depart (die) and immediately be with Christ, indicating that death for a believer results in immediate presence with the Lord.

4. Revelation 6:9-11 (ESV)
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice..."

Greek Phrase:

ψυχὰς τῶν ἐσφαγμένων (psychas tōn esphagmenōn) - "souls of those who had been slain"

Key Verb:

ἐσφαγμένων (esphagmenōn) - Perfect Passive Participle, Genitive Plural - "who had been slain"

Insight: The souls of martyrs are depicted as alive and conscious in heaven, indicating a continued existence after death and direct presence before God.

5. Revelation 7:9 (ESV)
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb..."

Greek Phrase:

ἑστῶτες ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου (hestōtes enōpion tou thronou) - "standing before the throne"

Key Verb:

ἑστῶτες (hestōtes) - Perfect Active Participle, Nominative Plural - "standing"

Insight: The passage describes redeemed individuals from every nation standing in the presence of the Lamb, suggesting that those who have died in Christ are immediately in His presence.


Scripture consistently teaches that believers, upon death, are immediately in the presence of the Lord. Luke 23:43 shows the thief being with Jesus in paradise on the same day of his death. Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23 emphasize a desire to depart from the body and be with Christ. Revelation passages further demonstrate that the souls of believers are present before God’s throne after death, affirming the immediacy of being with the Lord upon departing from the body.


John 14:2-3 (ESV)
"In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

Greek Verbs:

παραλήμψομαι (paralēmpsomai) - Future Middle Indicative, 1st Person Singular - "I will take"

ἦτε (ēte) - Present Active Subjunctive, 2nd Person Plural - "you may be"

Insight: While this passage primarily speaks of Jesus’ return, it reflects the ultimate goal of being with Him. It implies that Jesus’ preparation is for believers to be with Him immediately upon transition from this life.

7. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 (ESV)
"For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep."

Greek Verbs:

ἄξει (axei) - Future Active Indicative, 3rd Person Singular - "will bring"

Insight: This verse assures that those who have died in Christ will be brought with Him, suggesting that they are already with the Lord and will accompany Him at His return.

8. Philippians 3:20-21 (ESV)
"But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body..."

Greek Verbs:

ὑπάρχει (hyparchei) - Present Active Indicative, 3rd Person Singular - "is" (indicating current citizenship)

μετασχηματίσει (metaschēmatisei) - Future Active Indicative, 3rd Person Singular - "will transform"

Insight: Although this passage emphasizes bodily transformation at the resurrection, it also highlights that our citizenship is already in heaven, reinforcing the idea that the believer’s spiritual state after death is immediately in the heavenly realm.

9. Hebrews 12:22-23 (ESV)
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect."

Greek Verbs:

προσεληλύθατε (proselēlythate) - Perfect Active Indicative, 2nd Person Plural - "you have come"

τετελειωμένων (teteleiōmenōn) - Perfect Passive Participle, Genitive Plural - "made perfect"

Insight: This verse indicates that believers, as part of the heavenly assembly, include the spirits of the righteous made perfect, suggesting that those who have died in Christ are already present with God.

10. Revelation 14:13 (ESV)
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying, 'Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Blessed indeed,' says the Spirit, 'that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!'"

Greek Verbs:

ἀποθνῄσκοντες (apothnēskontes) - Present Active Participle, Nominative Plural - "who die"

ἀναπαήσονται (anapaēsontai) - Future Middle Indicative, 3rd Person Plural - "will rest"

Insight: The dead in Christ are described as resting from their labors, indicating a state of peace and presence with the Lord immediately after death.

11. 2 Corinthians 5:1 (ESV)
"For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Greek Verbs:

καταλυθῇ (kataluthē) - Aorist Passive Subjunctive, 3rd Person Singular - "is destroyed"

ἔχομεν (echomen) - Present Active Indicative, 1st Person Plural - "we have"

Insight: The language of immediate possession (present tense: "we have") of a heavenly dwelling upon the destruction of the earthly body suggests an immediate transition to the heavenly realm.


The New Testament consistently affirms that believers, upon death, are immediately with the Lord. Jesus’ words to the thief on the cross (Luke 23:43) and Paul’s confident declaration (2 Corinthians 5:8) both underscore the direct presence with Christ upon death. The "spirits of the righteous made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23) and the rest from labor (Revelation 14:13) further support the view that death for believers is not an intermediate unconscious state but rather immediate fellowship with Christ.

Thanks.

Johann.

Jesus nor the angels have never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; John 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Those, like the thief on the cross, who believe in Christ as Lord and Savior, that have already physically died have the promise that they will be with Christ when He returns.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[Johann!@#]

Jesus nor the angels have never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; John 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Those, like the thief on the cross, who believe in Christ as Lord and Savior, that have already physically died have the promise that they will be with Christ when He returns.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I respectfully disagree, for_his_glory, and I can provide numerous examples, but I have a feeling you might not be open to considering them.


To Live Is Christ
Php 1:18 What is the result? [Literally “for what”] Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in this I rejoice. But also I will rejoice,
Php 1:19 for I know that this will turn out to me for deliverance through your prayer and the support of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:20 according to my eager expectation and hope, that I will be put to shame in nothing, but with all boldness, even now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether through life or through death.
Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if it is to live in the flesh, this is fruitful work for me, and which I will prefer I do not know.
Php 1:23 But I am hard pressed between the two options [Literally “by the two”], having the desire to depart and to be with Christ, for this is very much better [Literally “for this is more better by much”].
Php 1:24 But to stay on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Php 1:25 And because I am [*Here “because” is supplied as a component of the participle (“convinced”) which is understood as causal] convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith,
Php 1:26 so that what you can be proud of may increase in Christ Jesus because of me through my return again to you.




(NA28 Greek Text):
Ἐπὶ τὰ δύο συνέχομαι, τὴν ἐπιθυμίαν ἔχων εἰς τὸ ἀναλῦσαι καὶ σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι, πολλῷ γὰρ μᾶλλον κρεῖσσον.
"But I am hard pressed between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better." (ESV)

1. Grammatical Analysis:
Ἐπὶ τὰ δύο (Epi ta dyo) - "between the two"

Ἐπὶ (Epi) - Preposition meaning "upon" or "between" in context.

τὰ δύο (ta dyo) - Accusative neuter plural, "the two (things/options)."

Insight: Paul is expressing tension between two possibilities: continuing life or departing to be with Christ.

συνέχομαι (synechomai) - Present Passive Indicative, 1st Person Singular - "I am hard pressed"

Root: συνέχω (synechō) - "to hold together, constrain, or press."

Insight: The verb in the present passive indicates a continuous internal pressure or compulsion. Paul feels a strong, ongoing tension.

τὴν ἐπιθυμίαν ἔχων (tēn epithymian echōn) - "having the desire"

ἐπιθυμίαν (epithymian) - Accusative Feminine Singular, "desire" or "longing"

ἔχων (echōn) - Present Active Participle, Masculine Nominative Singular - "having"

Insight: This desire is not just a fleeting thought but an ongoing inner longing.

εἰς τὸ ἀναλῦσαι (eis to analȳsai) - "to depart"

ἀναλῦσαι (analȳsai) - Aorist Active Infinitive - "to depart" or "to break up."

Root: ἀναλύω (analyō) - Commonly used for loosening or breaking camp (metaphorically, departing from life).

Insight: The aorist infinitive indicates a one-time action or moment of departure.

καὶ σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι (kai syn Christō einai) - "and to be with Christ"

σὺν (syn) - Preposition meaning "with"

Χριστῷ (Christō) - Dative Masculine Singular - "Christ"

εἶναι (einai) - Present Infinitive - "to be"

Insight: The dative case emphasizes union or association with Christ, indicating intimate fellowship.

πολλῷ γὰρ μᾶλλον κρεῖσσον (pollō gar mallon kreisson) - "for it is far better"

πολλῷ (pollō) - Dative Neuter Singular, "by much" or "far"

μᾶλλον (mallon) - Comparative Adverb, "more"

κρεῖσσον (kreisson) - Comparative Adjective, Neuter Singular - "better"

Insight: The structure "by much more better" (literal) is an emphatic way to highlight the surpassing value of being with Christ.



Paul is expressing a profound inner conflict between two equally compelling options: continuing his ministry on earth or departing to be with Christ.

This verse is part of Paul’s larger reflection on whether it would be better to live (for fruitful labor) or die (to be with Christ) (Philippians 1:21-24).

The verb ἀναλῦσαι (to depart) carries the imagery of loosening from life’s burdens and moving to a better state.

The phrase "to be with Christ" indicates immediate fellowship with Jesus upon departure from earthly life.
Paul’s statement reflects confident assurance of being with Christ immediately after death (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8 - "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord").


Paul is expressing his internal conflict: he desires to continue ministering on earth for the sake of the believers but also longs to depart and be with Christ, which he acknowledges as "much better". The language is vivid and forceful, emphasizing that being with Christ is not merely better, but vastly superior to any earthly existence.


1) "For I am in a strait betwixt two" (sunechomai de ek ton duo) "Yet I am constrained by the duo, the two." Paul expressed sentiment that he was held in or hemmed in on both sides, of good and evil; an expression of the conflict of the will of the Spirit and the will of the flesh in the saved person, until death, Rom_7:15-25. The choice is clear, Gal_5:25.

2) "Having a desire to depart" (ten epithumian echon eis to analusai) "Having, holding, containing, or possessing the desire to depart, to be let loose to go up," 2Co_5:2; 2Co_5:8.

3) "And to be with Christ" (kai sun christo einai) "And to be in close affinity and proximity with Christ;" Joh_14:1-3; 2Co_5:8-9; 1Th_4:17.

4) "Which is far better" (pollo gar mallon kreissa) "Which is by far much better." Where there is joy and where there are pleasures forevermore, without ceasing; Psa_16:11; untold blessings, fellowship, and wealth await the prepared, 1Co_2:9; who have proper reservations, 1Pe_1:4-9.

σὺν (syn)
Part of Speech: Preposition

Meaning: "With"

Case Governing: Dative

Function: Denotes association or companionship.

Contextual Use: Implies close, intimate union or companionship with Christ.
Literal Translation: "And to be with Christ"

Emphasis-- The phrase denotes not merely physical proximity but a relational and enduring presence.

The expression σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι indicates that upon death, believers immediately enter into a continual and intimate fellowship with Christ.


To me, this is one of the clearest passages indicating where believers go when they die--καὶ σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι (kai syn Christō einai)--meaning "and to be with Christ."

God bless.

J.

 

[follower]

It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime.

True. They were full of peace, joy and righteousness, and experiential knowledge of Yeshua, and they were daily abiding as one (echad) with Yeshua and the Father Yahweh and one another all immersed in Yeshua's Name.
Man slaves of satan came up with differing ideas .

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

C.S. Lewis, author and lay Anglican theologian wrote the following (from 'The world's last night and other essays' - 1960):

"Say what you like" we shall be told, "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false.

I don't think C. S. Lewis would have made such a silly gramatical error as "have been proved".

 

[Alfred Persson]

It's been a while but I have continued to think deeply about a solution to this issue and wanted to post my thoughts.

I want to ask: to whom is Jesus speaking to in verse 15 of Matthew 24? Is he speaking to his disciples who have asked him (v.3) what the sign of his coming will be and when the world will end? Or is it possible that he is speaking to a future generation?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Up till that verse, Jesus talks of future, fairly non-specific events such as false Christs, rumours of wars, nations and kingdoms rising against each other, persecutions, earthquakes, famines and pestilence. But at verse 15 he is rather specific - certainly at least, it is clear that he is talking about some kind of desecration standing in the holy place.

This appears to be the watershed event and Jesus underlines it thus by warning of a tribulation like no other, such that Judeans should flee immediately.

What follows is further foretelling of events that come after that tribulation...and, note, he is still talking to those that have witnessed the 'abomination' described.

So when he gets to verse 34's 'this generation', I'll put my neck out and suggest that no damage is done to the text if we replace 'this generation' with 'the generation that sees the abomination'.

Thus we have:
Verily I say unto you, the generation that sees a desecration standing in the holy place shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This did not happen in 70AD. The Roman siege lasted about 5 months and they destroyed the Temple and razed most of the city.

False dilemma. Christ separated His "coming" from the destruction of the Temple, as did Matthew:

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:1-3 NKJ)

In this context "these things" (tauta) refers to the destruction of the Temple, not the sign of Christ's coming.

In Matthew 24:33 "these things" includes the sign of the Son of Man Matthew separated from the destruction of the Temple, which will be a huge opening in the sky, a portal opening into the "dimension of heaven" flashing lightning from one end of the sky to the other

30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 "So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near-- at the doors!
34 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. (Matt. 24:30-34 NKJ)

This huge "gate into heaven" opens in the end time week, before the battle of Armageddon, when the dead bodies of the Beast's armies are slain and is visible as lightning in the sky or carrion eating birds (vultures, eagles) circling their food:

27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. (Matt. 24:27-28 NKJ)


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Rev. 19:11-21 NKJ)


The events in Mattew 24 have a dual fulfillment, in the 1st century and the End Time. Only in the End Time do "All these things" occur, like the sign of Christ's coming.

Christ is God the Son. He knew perfectly billions would be reading scripture and interpreting this correctly ("LET THE READER UNDERSTAND" Mark 13:14).

While a person in the 1st century and CS Lewis might spiritualize the details about the opening in the sky, careful expositors of end time prophecies do not.

Confirming scripture describes a huge "Gate into Heaven" will be the "sign of Christ's coming" "every eye" will see:


According to a first century text (Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) the sign of Jesus’ coming would be an opening in the sky:

And then the signs of the truth shall appear: first, a sign of an opening in heaven; then a sign of the sound of a trumpet; and the third sign, the resurrection of the dead. Now, not all of the dead but as was said, the Lord shall come and all the holy ones with him. Then the world will see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.-Brannan, R. (Trans.). (2012). The Apostolic Fathers in English. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

The Sign of Jesus’ Coming will be an Opening in the Heavens | End Time News

Both Matthew and Jesus refer to the sign of Jesus' coming as a sign event, something people will see in heaven: Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign (4592 σημεῖον semeion) of Your

endtimenews.net