Charismatic Bible Studies - 2 Peter 2:4-9

[Hidden In Him]

Everlasting Fire: God's Punishment For Seducing The Righteous Into Sin



Much like demonic spirits do, the Gnostics seduced the faithful into sin, causing them to "burn" with lust, especially after working witchcraft on the spiritually unprotected. Those with spouses, daughters or sons who were seduced away from the faith likewise sometimes "burned" with anger towards them. But the punishment from God was that these seducers would literally burn in everlasting flames, since that is what they took joy in. They were proving by their earthly lives what they would be in eternity.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down into Tartarus and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the Day of Judgment (2 Peter 2:4-9)

As Peter stated here, God made the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah examples of those who would suffer in everlasting fire for seducing others into sexual sin. Jude said the same thing, stating that "Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities round about them are (in the present tense) set forth as an example, undergoing the judgment of everlasting fire" (Jude 1:7), even though the judgment on these cities had taken place 1,600 years before Peter and Jude wrote their letters.

It is important to understand that both were using present tense verbs here, meaning the fires were still smoldering. Numerous authors both Pagan and Jewish made reference to active geological phenomenon still taking place in and around the Dead Sea during New Testament times, as it appears to have been common knowledge. Strabo, a first century Greek geographer and historian, stated, "The lake was formed by earthquakes and boiling outbursts of fire, and hot water impregnated with bitumen and brimstone... In the midst of the lake is the source of the fire, and also there are great quantities of asphalt in the middle. The eruption is uncertain, because the movements of fire have no order known to us." (Strabo, Book XVI, 764). Diodorus Siculus also stated, "The fire which burns (present tense) beneath the ground, and the stench, render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived." (Diodorus Siculus, Book II, 48). Philo wrote, "The fire is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything and smoldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: the smoke which is still emitted, and the brimstone (i.e. a substance created out of burning sulfur) that men dig up there." (On AbrahamXXVII). Likewise, another ancient Jewish text from this time entitled the Wisdom of Solomon states, "Wisdom saved a man [named Lot] from the destruction of the godless, and he escaped the fire that came upon the five cities, cities whose wickedness is still attested by a smoking waste" (Wisdom of Solomon, 10:7).

It was likely massive volcanic earthquakes which actually caused the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, for if the massive fault line that runs through it had opened up, great fissures in the Jordan Valley Rift would have hurtled millions of tons of molten, burning sulfur and salt dozens of miles into the air above the entire surrounding region. All this material would have eventually fallen back to the earth, very similar to what takes place when a volcanic eruption occurs, and it is why Lot and his family would have been told to flee. They had only a matter of time before the fallout began falling back to earth, and Lot's wife did not listen, so she ended up being covered over in salt and ash. As an older version of the Encyclopedia Britannica reads, "That in this bituminous region a violent earth tremor - to which, indeed, the Ghor and its borders are particularly liable - should have brought into play eruptive forces whose catastrophic effects are indicated in the Bible narrative is more than probable" (Encyclopedia Britannica, V.7, P.100, 1958). Lot and his family were warned by the angels, "Do not look behind you, nor stay anywhere in the surrounding country. Flee to the mountains, lest perhaps you be overtaken ..." (Genesis 19:17, LXX).



Interestingly enough, there is also a Jewish tradition which states that the Lord warned Sodom and Gomorrah for years in advance that He would bring judgment against them, and these warnings came in the form of earthquakes. As one commentary on the Midrash states, "The overthrow of Sodom did not occur suddenly without previous warning. Twenty-five years prior to its annihilation, Hashem caused earthquakes to send tremors throughout that region in order to awaken its inhabitants to do teshuva (i.e. penance), but they took no notice of these divine warnings." (Midrash Says, V.1, P.169-170)

It also seems probable that the fires of this region were "everlasting" during Peter's time to warn that it would one day become the Lake of Fire. The Dead Sea region is rich in sulphur, which is the primary element contained in brimstone, and it is likely no coincidence the Lake of Fire will be high in sulphur as well:

But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet ... [and] the two of them were thrown alive into the Fiery Lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the Rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves upon their flesh. (Revelations 19:20a-21. See also 20:10)

There's also a suggestion in the Book of Revelation that the same fault line which runs beneath the Dead Sea will one day suffer the greatest quake in human history, specifically because God will be preparing the Lake of Fire so that the dead bodies of the Antichrist's armies - hundreds of thousands of them - can be thrown into it:

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air, and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven from the throne, saying, "It is done." 18 And there were voices and thunders and lightnings, and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. (Revelation 16:16-18)


Mass Judgments

The common themes for all three groups Peter mentioned in this passage were that 1. they were all sexual seducers, and 2. they all suffered mass destruction from God. That Lot was "oppressed by the filthy conduct" of the Sodomites, and it "tormented his righteous soul seeing their lawless deeds" points out how he had to endure witnessing their sexual immorality. But what about the other two groups?

Jude was written from 2nd Peter, Chapter 2 point for point, with a few major differences. The things Peter mentions here come from the Jewish tradition in the Book of 1 Enoch, though he does not mention the book by name. But Jude does, and actually quotes 1 Enoch directly, and it had this to say regarding the angels who sinned:

1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: "Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children"... 1 They took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants... 1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semyaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments. (1 Enoch 6:1-3, 7:1-2, 8:1-3).

 

[Hidden In Him]

What this passage states is two things: First, the angels seduced the daughters of men, in part by teaching them the use of enchantments and charms, or in other words the powers of witchcraft, and to how employ the powers of seduction themselves, not only by occult means and through the methods of beatification that women had not used before. These women then used them on men, and began to seduce whoever they desired. Meanwhile the angels were teaching men the art of killing and making war. But these seductions ultimately led the whole earth into practicing fornication and lawlessness. And because both groups dedicated themselves to seducing others and spiritually corrupting them - (Note: Enoch also stated that the women seduced the men into worshipping demons) - both groups suffered mass judgment. The earth's inhabitants all died in the flood, and as for the angels, they were cast down into Tartarus where they would never tempt mankind again, for as Peter stated, "God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down into Tartarus and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment." (2 Peter 2:4)

This coming judgement the angels of Genesis 6 are now awaiting is to be cast from Tartarus into the Lake of Fire after the great earthquake occurs that will open it up. The Book of Enoch suggests this as well. It is described as an "Abyss of Fire" rather than a Lake, but given it will be brought about by the opening up of the earth, both will be true in a sense.

And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semyaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves 12 with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations under the valleys of the earth until the day of their judgement and of their consummation, until the judgement that is 13 for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off into the abyss of fire, and 14 to the torment and prison in which they shall be confined for ever. (1 Enoch 10:11-14)

The servants of evil did not corrupt everyone in these stories, however. Lot, his wife and his daughters survived the destruction of Sodom. Noah, his wife, and their sons survived the flood, and all the angels of God who did not sin, nor not gather on Mount Hermon with the others escaped being cast down into Tartarus. So Peter was here saying that God knew to protect the righteous from seduction, yet reserve the seducers for a Day of judgement. Sodom and Gomorrah met a terrible fate, the entire ancient world was eventually destroyed in a flood, and the angels who sinned were cast down to await judgment. So too would the Gnostics suffer a similar fate, and this was the point. God would preserve the righteous in Peter's time from being seduced, yet reserve the Gnostics who corrupted others spiritually for a Day of Judgment.


Burning In Fire

The Parable of the Tares was also about the Gnostics. Just as they professed to be "Christians" and so looked like Christians on the outside, so too did tares look like wheat but were not. They were worthless where true food was concerned, and good only to be thrown into a "furnace" of fire by the angels of God and burned.

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:24-30)

Notice they did not just grow wild. Jesus said an enemy had sown the tares, meaning the Devil himself raised up the deception of Gnosticism to create fake "Christians" who would begin to destroy Christianity from within. Tares, or Darnel (Lolium temulentum) mimicked wheat in its early stages, but caused dizziness, nausea, and death if consumed in high enough quantities. So too were the spiritual effects of Gnostic teaching.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His angels, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in ungodliness, and all the harsh things ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. (Jude 1:14-15)

Even now, however, people are dying and descending into eternal fires for falling prey to sexual predators, and they do not get out once they get there. The following account was talking specifically about those seduced into homosexuality.

Jesus and I went to a different part of Hell. Jesus said, "These things you are seeing are for the end times"...
We walked up a high, dry hill. At the top of the hill, I looked below and saw a swirling river. Jesus and I walked
closer to the river, and I saw that it was full of blood and fire. As I looked closer, I saw many souls, each chained to another. The weight of the chains dragged them under the surface of the river of fire... "What is this?" I asked the Lord. "These are the souls of the unbelievers and the ungodly. These were lovers of their own flesh more than lovers of God. They were men loving men, and women loving women, who would not repent and be saved from their sin. They enjoyed their life of sin and spurned My salvation"... I looked again at the souls in the fire. They were a fiery red, and their bones were blackened and burned. I heard their souls cry out in regret and sorrow. The Lord said, "This is their torment. Chain after chain, they are linked together. These desired the flesh of their own kind, men with men, and women with women, doing that which is unnatural. They led many young girls and young boys into acts of sin. They called it love, but in the end it was sin and death. I know that many boys and girls, men and women were forced against their wills to commit such atrocious acts - I know and will not hold this sin to their charge. Remember this though," said Jesus, "I know all things, and the persons who made these youths to sin have the greater punishment. I will judge righteously. To the sinner, I say, 'Repent, and I will have mercy. Call on Me and I will hear.' Time after time I called to these souls to repent and to come unto Me. I would have forgiven them and cleansed them, and in My name they could have been set free. But they would not listen to Me. They wanted the lust of the flesh more than the love of the living God. Because I am holy, you must be holy. 'Touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you," said the Lord. I felt very sick as I looked at the souls in the river of fire. "If only they had turned to Me before it was too late," Jesus continued. "My blood was shed so that everyone could come to Me. I gave My life that even the vilest of sinners might live." Multitudes of souls went by in the river of flames. Over and under the waves of fire they went... I heard cries of regret as the bloody river flowed by us. (A Divine Revelation Of Hell, Baxter, P.129-131)

This is again what the Gnostics were notorious for: Seducing others into sexual sin and immorality, and the warning is still that the punishment will be severe. I recall reading an account one time that said those who temped many others into sexual sin and exploited them will themselves be made the victims of sadistic sexual tortures at the hands of the demonic spirits who used them and deceived them. There will be a Lake of Fire, and many in the end-times will be cast into it for the same reasons.


Questions and Applications

1. What thoughts came to mind in reading this study? Do you remember anything in particular?
2. How much do you believe Noah's flood happened, and why?
3. How much do you believe the account of the angels sinning with women, and why?
4. How much do you believe in what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?
5. What do you think it will take people to believe the Day of the Lord is coming?

 

[RandyK]

Burning In Fire
Questions and Applications

1. What thoughts came to mind in reading this study? Do you remember anything in particular?
2. How much do you believe Noah's flood happened, and why?
3. How much do you believe the account of the angels sinning with women, and why?
4. How much do you believe in what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?
5. What do you think it will take people to believe the Day of the Lord is coming?

I should bow out of this discussion because it would be reduced to a series of debates, as opposed to offering edifying expressions. I would avoid that here!

In brief, I do believe in the reality of Damnation--I just see the "Fire" part of it as an instantaneous destruction of the wicked.

It is their *removal* from the New Earth that explains the "eternal" duration of this event, and follows their instant destruction. The "removal" is "eternal," but the "Fire" is *not* eternal, but rather, instantaneous.

That is, I see "the Fire" as being no different from somebody annihilated in a nuclear blast. The removal of the person's physical being would be immediate. The "eternal punishment" follows that event.

Some see this "Fire" as literal fire that burns human bodies for all eternity. Nothing could be so awful, and I'm not sure God, who condemned cruelty, would do this?

Some might say that people are just doing it to themselves. But God is not victim to His own machinations. He created the environment, as well as the judgment. I prefer to explain it in a different way.

I see the "Fire" as more or less an instantaneous event, followed by an eternity separated from God's Paradise on Earth. Their bodies are instantly removed from the earth by annihilation, but their spirits are removed to "Outer Darkness," to no longer inhabit the earth in God's presence.

I also don't accept the book of Enoch's version that angels mated with women. This sounds too "fable-like" for me, which in Greek mythology mixed the gods and men. Angels and women are too different, as I see it, and could not mate, in my view. We "will be" like the angels, but not as we presently are. So I don't see that they've ever "mated."

However, this is in the book of Enoch, and both Peter and Jude quote it. I just don't feel that quoting some truths in an Apochryphal book makes the entire book "inspired."

Since the answer doesn't lie in Scripture itself, I have no basis to prove my belief one way or the other in definitive fashion. Friends of mine and I have argued this forever. It doesn't do a lot of good, in my estimation.

As to the characterization of Gnosticism as temptors and fornicators, which includes homosexuality, I completely agree. Gnosticism was probably the 1st Antichrist of the NT Bible.

It isn't mentioned except indirectly because the Church Fathers wanted to stamp it out completely, with the exception of mere inferences to it by way of arguing against it. It obviously persisted, and evolved into new forms of false Christianity.

I often refer to the counterpart of true Christians in the Church as being "Nominalists." Over time, Christianity became a religious form without spiritual substance. They lost the supernatural, the miraculous, and true regenerative qualities of righteousness. If the supernatural and the miraculous were brought in at all, they came in the guise of occultism dressed in Christian clothes.

I'm afraid we're going to see more of this in our day, whether we call it "Gnosticism," "Nominal Christianity," or "New Age Christianity." Since the supernatural and spiritual phenomena cannot be denied, particularly with the advent of modern pentecostal movements, the enemy has to devise a means of producing a false spirituality, a false manifestation of spiritual gifts, in the Church. Call it "New Gnosticism," if you will?

There has already been a strong focus in our time on the occult, on Satanism, on New Age practices, on Wicca and Earthly religion, on Witchcraft, on inner Power. I wouldn't be surprised to see false Dreams and Visions come to the fore, as the enemy wants to entice people to go to the Dark Side for offering supernatural understanding of what is taking place in our world.

But thanks for a very interesting topic. The main gist of this study is actually a wake up call to Christians to be aware of the temptations that lurk. It's an encouragement to fight the good fight, and to stay true to our holy God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I should bow out of this discussion because it would be reduced to a series of debates, as opposed to offering edifying expressions. I would avoid that here!

LoL. If you wanted to respond, it's not the end of the world to disagree now and then Randy.

It is their *removal* from the New Earth that explains the "eternal" duration of this event, and follows their instant destruction. The "removal" is "eternal," but the "Fire" is *not* eternal, but rather, instantaneous.

That is, I see "the Fire" as being no different from somebody annihilated in a nuclear blast. The removal of the person's physical being would be immediate. The "eternal punishment" follows that event.

Some see this "Fire" as literal fire that burns human bodies for all eternity. Nothing could be so awful, and I'm not sure God, who condemned cruelty, would do this?

This gets into the debate over eventual annihilation, which I strongly opposed for the better part of 30 years as a believer until I one day saw scriptural support for the expression "forever and ever" actually referring to finite periods of time.

These days, I do believe the spirits both human and demonic can be terminated into non-existence at some point and will, but for both to commit the tremendous evils they have and not be punished for it would invite sin and evil in the earth, since all that happens is they cease to exist. I know the torments of Hell are gruesome, but Hell was created for the Devil and his angels; spirits who deliberately do evil to others on a constant basis. The trouble for man is that they are stalked by these beings, and thus the Lord warns humanity not to end up in their clutches when they die, because they will be given to the very spirits who deceived them and seduced them.

I do believe it comes to an end, but as the scripture says, "what a man sows, that shall he also reap."

However, this is in the book of Enoch, and both Peter and Jude quote it. I just don't feel that quoting some truths in an Apochryphal book makes the entire book "inspired."

Another serious debate, and I'm starting to see what you mean now, LoL. Yeah, there are alternate versions of 1 Enoch, and the common reading is corrupted in a few key places, especially where it talks about the giants' actual size.

But yeah, that's a longer debate. I do actually consider 1 Enoch inspired, but it depends of which reading is being used.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I also don't accept the book of Enoch's version that angels mated with women. This sounds too "fable-like" for me, which in Greek mythology mixed the gods and men. Angels and women are too different, as I see it, and could not mate, in my view. We "will be" like the angels, but not as we presently are. So I don't see that they've ever "mated."

I'll see if I can find some quotes later on the purported size of most angels, but their normal appearance is described as being roughly 8-9 feet tall, and if this is the form they normally assume, then giants would be the natural product of such unions. While supernatural, this at least makes credible sense. The "sons of Seth" theory does not account for why these men would be abnormally large, nor does it account for why men who were supposed to be characterized as "sons of God" would give birth to creatures who would be notoriously evil throughout the entire history of Jewish tradition as well as the scriptural accounts themselves. There was no godly giant even after the flood. To a man they all opposed God and His people.

Anyway, numerous aspects to debate here if you like. I don't mind at all.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I often refer to the counterpart of true Christians in the Church as being "Nominalists." Over time, Christianity became a religious form without spiritual substance. They lost the supernatural, the miraculous, and true regenerative qualities of righteousness. If the supernatural and the miraculous were brought in at all, they came in the guise of occultism dressed in Christian clothes.

I'm afraid we're going to see more of this in our day, whether we call it "Gnosticism," "Nominal Christianity," or "New Age Christianity." Since the supernatural and spiritual phenomena cannot be denied, particularly with the advent of modern pentecostal movements, the enemy has to devise a means of producing a false spirituality, a false manifestation of spiritual gifts, in the Church. Call it "New Gnosticism," if you will?

There has already been a strong focus in our time on the occult, on Satanism, on New Age practices, on Wicca and Earthly religion, on Witchcraft, on inner Power.

Yes. And that's what Gnosticism essentially is. It's Luciferianism re-packaged in Christian language.

I wouldn't be surprised to see false Dreams and Visions come to the fore, as the enemy wants to entice people to go to the Dark Side for offering supernatural understanding of what is taking place in our world.

They are doing it already. There is a quote from the Fathers that this was part of the formulation of Gnostic theology. They would send dream-sending demons into their adherents, who would then have dreams "from God" that supported Gnostic theology and built upon it and embellished it....

In like manner do these men, the more they seem to excel others in wisdom, and waste their strength by drawing the bow too tightly, the greater fools do they show themselves. For when the unclean spirit of folly has gone forth, and when afterwards he finds them not waiting upon God, but occupied with mere worldly questions, then, taking seven other spirits more wicked than himself, Matthew 12:43 and inflating the minds of these men with the notion of their being able to conceive of something beyond God, and having fitly prepared them for the reception of deceit, he implants within them the foolish spirits of wickedness.... And while they affirm such things as these concerning the creation, every one of them generates something new, day by day, according to his ability; for no one is deemed perfect who does not develop among them some mighty fictions. It is thus necessary, first, to indicate what things they metamorphose [to their own use] out of the prophetical writings (Ireneaus, Against Heresies, XVI, 3, and XVIII, 1)

 

[Hidden In Him]

But thanks for a very interesting topic. The main gist of this study is actually a wake up call to Christians to be aware of the temptations that lurk. It's an encouragement to fight the good fight, and to stay true to our holy God.

Good post, and thanks as always for your honesty!

 

[RandyK]

LoL. If you wanted to respond, it's not the end of the world to disagree now and then Randy.

Yes, but your Bible Studies tend to be very edification-oriented. And I don't want to change that. I've had well over 20 years of debating religions and theology on these forums! ;) It's refreshing to enjoy true fellowship with like-minded brothers and sisters.

This gets into the debate over eventual annihilation, which I strongly opposed for the better part of 30 years as a believer until I one day saw scriptural support for the expression "forever and ever" actually referring to finite periods of time in the word of God.

Interesting! This happened before on another forum where I mentioned my beliefs. The moderator there also thought I was teaching Annihilationism, though I wasn't.

Yes, the bodies of the wicked are destroyed, as by fire. They die. But their spirits live on, and they are, I believe, resurrected to spend an eternity in Outer Darkness. I don't claim to understand all this--just stating my current thoughts.

But this is highly speculative. That's why I didn't want to go there on this particular forum.

These days, I do believe the spirits both human and demonic can be terminated into non-existence at some point and will, but for both to commit the tremendous evils they have and not be punished for it would invite sin and evil in the earth, since all that happens is they queasily cease to exist. I know the torments of Hell are gruesome, but Hell was created for the Devil and his angels; spirits who deliberately do evil to others on a constant basis. The trouble for man is that they are stalked by these beings, and thus the Lord warns humanity not to end up in their clutches when they die, because they will be given to the very spirits who deceived them and seduced them.

I agree except that I'm not sure God will ever again let demons or people do wicked things, either to one another or to anybody else. Sin will cease, as I see it.

The "dry," boring existence that will come to those who once enjoyed the "pleasures of sin" will not be cured by God's healing love. It will not be cured by the "joy of the Lord." That is at least part of their punishment, as I see it.

But yes, I think the Eternal Punishment of demons and men will indeed be "eternal." The question for me was not whether it will be eternal or not. Rather, the question was whether the "Fire" is an eternal event, or an instantaneous event that leads to eternal incarceration?

But yeah, that's a longer debate. I do actually consider 1 Enoch inspired, but it depends of which reading is being used.

No doubt some of Enoch was inspired because Peter and Jude quoted it. But it is not included in Scripture for a reason. Other Apocryphal books are likely partly inspired and useful. Even today many books and posts are somewhat inspired, but wouldn't qualify as "Scripture!" ;)

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes, but your Bible Studies tend to be very edification-oriented. And I don't want to change that. I've had well over 20 years of debating religions and theology on these forums! ;) It's refreshing to enjoy true fellowship with like-minded brothers and sisters.

I appreciate that!

For me, the way to have it completely licked is when it is still good fellowship in the word even when people do not agree. I've got a good eight years at it as well, and I never really mind debate. It's just when it gets nasty-spirited is all. I've had my share of getting impatient sometimes, but these days I think I've kinda seen it all. And when I know it's with someone with a very good spirit about them, I actually enjoy a little back and forth.

Interesting! This happened before on another forum where I mentioned my beliefs. The moderator there also thought I was teaching Annihilationism, though I wasn't.

Yes, the bodies of the wicked are destroyed, as by fire. They die. But their spirits live on, and they are, I believe, resurrected to spend an eternity in Outer Darkness. I don't claim to understand all this--just stating my current thoughts

I will find some quotes from a heavenly vision later on (I need to head out the door in a sec), but if true, the Spirit is saying that demonic spirits can be annihilated in the here and now under the power of God and some are. It's in Christ, not someone in the flesh can go around spouting, but there is authority in Christ if He so chooses to wipe evil spirits out of existence. I personally believe it, and believe it is part of the Lord's revealing that evil spirits will not exist forever.

But yes, I think the Eternal Punishment of demons and men will indeed be "eternal." The question for me was not whether it will be eternal or not. Rather, the question was whether the "Fire" is an eternal event, or an instantaneous event that leads to eternal incarceration?

In relation to this study, I think the Lake of Fire will burn forever as a memorial to what happened to the wicked there. As for when the souls of the wicked will eventually cease to be, that would be purely speculation on my part.

No doubt some of Enoch was inspired because Peter and Jude quoted it. But it is not included in Scripture for a reason. Other Apocryphal books are likely partly inspired and useful. Even today many books and posts are somewhat inspired, but wouldn't qualify as "Scripture!" ;)

It's a very interesting question to look into, because there are other places where the NT writers referred to "scripture" saying something, and we don't have record of it anywhere. I'll see if I can find that later too.

Blessings!
- H

 

[RandyK]

Yes. And that's what Gnosticism essentially is. It's Luciferianism re-packaged in Christian language.


They are doing it already. There is a quote from the Fathers that this was part of the formulation of Gnostic theology. They would send dream-sending demons into their adherents, who would then have dreams "from God" that supported Gnostic theology and built upon it and embellished it....

In like manner do these men, the more they seem to excel others in wisdom, and waste their strength by drawing the bow too tightly, the greater fools do they show themselves. For when the unclean spirit of folly has gone forth, and when afterwards he finds them not waiting upon God, but occupied with mere worldly questions, then, taking seven other spirits more wicked than himself, Matthew 12:43 and inflating the minds of these men with the notion of their being able to conceive of something beyond God, and having fitly prepared them for the reception of deceit, he implants within them the foolish spirits of wickedness.... And while they affirm such things as these concerning the creation, every one of them generates something new, day by day, according to his ability; for no one is deemed perfect who does not develop among them some mighty fictions. It is thus necessary, first, to indicate what things they metamorphose [to their own use] out of the prophetical writings (Ireneaus, Against Heresies, XVI, 3, and XVIII, 1)

Isn't that true! They seem to want to outdo one another in claiming "new revelations!" Sometimes it is like Kabbalism, or drawing out of Scriptures something that "they claim to see," but really isn't there. That's why I personally focus so much on *what the Scriptures explicitly say,* in order to judge in a way that doesn't allow in a false god with a corrupt morality.

Taking this closer to home, quite a few years ago Constance Cumby visited our city. She drew a large crowd for a moderately-sized church, and saw even one of our State Senators, Ellen Craswell, attend.

If you don't know, she sort of started this fascination with the New Age movement on behalf of the Church. She was around politicians and heard new words being used, and had to find out where these new words were coming from.

She traced it back to what she called the "New Age Movement," and discovered its roots were in Luciferianism, or the Occult. Anyway, I think the Senator should've taken notice. I know she was a Christian, but was leading a Christian charge in a very liberal state.

As Christians we all wanted to vote for her. But shockingly, the liberal candidate won, ending the brief time Christians enjoyed "one of their own" in the government.

Some Christians today believe that Christianity will win, politically, by force of prayer and faith, and by pure persistence, trying to get as many Christians into office as possible. But I think the book of Revelation was written to warn us that even though we can make strides in government and in society with our testimony, the end result in this age will be Antichrist.

The warnings about deluting the Gospel with Gnosticism should be taken very seriously. We are seeing a notable spike right now with religion in Trump's government. But I don't believe it will last, personally. It never does in this age. Just my thoughts...

 

[hawkman]

2. How much do you believe Noah's flood happened, and why?

Yes I believe Noah's flood happened just as we are told in Genesis .
There are flood stories from all over the world and here is a link about that .

From the link !

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth. Old world missionaries reported their amazement at finding remote tribes already possessing legends with tremendous similarities to the Bible's accounts of the worldwide flood. H.S. Bellamy in Moons, Myths and Men estimates that altogether there are over 500 Flood legends worldwide. Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood.

These flood tales are frequently linked by common elements that parallel the Biblical account including the warning of the coming flood, the construction of a boat in advance, the storage of animals, the inclusion of family, and the release of birds to determine if the water level had subsided. The overwhelming consistency among flood legends found in distant parts of the globe indicates they were derived from the same origin (the Bible's record), but oral transcription has changed the details through time.

Perhaps the second most important historical account of a global flood can be found in a Babylonian flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. When the Biblical and Babylonian accounts are compared, a number of outstanding similarities are found that leave no doubt these stories are rooted in the same event or oral tradition.

Flood Legends From Around the World

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth.

nwcreation.net

Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard

In an interview with Christiane Amanpour for ABC News, Dr. Robert Ballard, one of the world's leading underwater archaeologists, talked about his findings. His team is scouring the depths of the Black Sea in Turkey in search of traces of an ancient civilization hidden underwater since the time...

abcnews.go.com

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes I believe Noah's flood happened just as we are told in Genesis .
There are flood stories from all over the world and here is a link about that .

From the link !

Wow. The charts in this link are nicely done. Very succinct and straight to the point.

Flood Legends From Around the World

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth.

nwcreation.net

 

[JLB]

Much like demonic spirits do, the Gnostics seduced the faithful into sin

These unclean spirits (demons) had “taken captive” the Gnostics to influence them to teach doctrines of demons, that ultimately led astray those who gave heed to their teachings to depart from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2


These doctrines of demons are taught through people who have departed from the doctrine of Christ because they do not love the truth.


And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
2 Timothy 2:23-26


Jesus Christ is truth. Every word that proceeds out of His mouth is the truth.

His Gospel is the truth.
His doctrine is the truth.
His commandments are the truth.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9

 

[RandyK]

Yes I believe Noah's flood happened just as we are told in Genesis .
There are flood stories from all over the world and here is a link about that .

From the link !

Flood Legends From Around the World

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth.

nwcreation.net

Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard

In an interview with Christiane Amanpour for ABC News, Dr. Robert Ballard, one of the world's leading underwater archaeologists, talked about his findings. His team is scouring the depths of the Black Sea in Turkey in search of traces of an ancient civilization hidden underwater since the time...

abcnews.go.com

I hope I don't blow up our "friendship" here because I can never be anything but honest about my beliefs. What sounds like a "liberal" approach to the Flood is actually how I imagine a "literal interpretation" might look in reality.

I accept the biblical record of a kind of "universal Flood." But I don't really think the Bible is speaking in modern scientific terms involving a "globe." The earth was viewed as under us, with the sky above. And if the waters built up around us in every direction, covering the highest hills I can see the Bible describing the Flood as "covering all the earth, including the mountains, and killing all men and animals, except those in the ark."

This is the perspective of a man looking around his environment as he stands upon the earth. From his view the "whole earth is covered with water."

But I don't think that necessarily means the "whole globe" is covered--just all of the "dirt" around him as far as he can see on a boat. That could be true if you are a sailor on a sailing vessel in the middle of the Black Sea. It is much more so if the Black Sea extended well beyond its borders, covering the Cradle of Civilization. The whole earth would be covered within visual distance of the point of origin, and all the creatures in that specific region would die.

I read a book that altered my perspective, "The Christian View of Science and Scripture," by Bernard Ramm. He is a biblical literalist, but approaches this as a matter of understanding the language as it would be used *at the time of the recording of this information.*

Ramm is a scientist, and explores what would happen if a truly Global Flood happened. From his arguments I would have to conclude that God would have to re-create the world--something that God has already rested from doing--He isn't going to recreate the earth--just make it new at some point.

So the Flood had to preserve the old earth. Noah had to preserve a sampling of creatures from his region to show God's intent to preserve not just the earth, but also the creatures that live upon the earth, including plants, animals, insects, worms, etc. A truly Global Flood would have destroyed all of these. Noah probably just took a sampling of animals that God brought to him, and not the "whole zoo" or "botanical collection," let alone birds and fish, insects and worms.

And I doubt he brought bags of seeds including all types of vegetation on earth. They require diverse habitats and careful preservation. In sum, the miracle of preserving every species of animal and plant would be a greater miracle than the miracle to create that much water to cover the entire globe!

And there isn't enough water to cover the earth and its highest mountains. The depth of the water, and the mix of water and salt would destroy marine creatures and freshwater creatures who require a specific habitat that a Global Flood would destroy. Not only that but many plant varieties would not survive.

I've heard many of the answers for these problems from "Global Flood" enthusiasts, but they don't really work for me. I think Ramm is right--the Bible is accurate and literal in saying that "the whole earth was covered" and that this was the perspective from an individual looking out from his local position. The "earth" doesn't have to mean "globe"--it can refer to "land." The whole "land" was covered--not the "globe."

The real worry here is that I'm not taking the Bible literally, and denying the powers of an infinite supernatural God. No, I'm not doing that. I believe God can change the universe in an instant, and still works miracles at His discretion.

But I think it is inconsistent for God to destroy the world He created and then have to re-create it. And I don't think the God who said, "Come, let us reason together" would make things so difficult to believe that rational men see no consistency in the account.

But this belief of mine is not one of the "essential" beliefs of our faith. We all believe the Bible--it's just a matter of language here for me.

I trust you'll understand this is *not* an attempt to liberalize God and His word. I believe that we have to be consistent with science and reason even as we preach a Gospel of faith.

 

[JLB]

I hope I don't blow up our "friendship" here because I can never be anything but honest about my beliefs. What sounds like a "liberal" approach to the Flood is actually how I imagine a "literal interpretation" might look in reality.

I accept the biblical record of a kind of "universal Flood." But I don't really think the Bible is speaking in modern scientific terms involving a "globe." The earth was viewed as under us, with the sky above. And if the waters built up around us in every direction, covering the highest hills I can see the Bible describing the Flood as "covering all the earth, including the mountains, and killing all men and animals, except those in the ark."

This is the perspective of a man looking around his environment as he stands upon the earth. From his view the "whole earth is covered with water."

But I don't think that necessarily means the "whole globe" is covered--just all of the "dirt" around him as far as he can see on a boat. That could be true if you are a sailor on a sailing vessel in the middle of the Black Sea. It is much more so if the Black Sea extended well beyond its borders, covering the Cradle of Civilization. The whole earth would be covered within visual distance of the point of origin, and all the creatures in that specific region would die.

I read a book that altered my perspective, "The Christian View of Science and Scripture," by Bernard Ramm. He is a biblical literalist, but approaches this as a matter of understanding the language as it would be used *at the time of the recording of this information.*

Ramm is a scientist, and explores what would happen if a truly Global Flood happened. From his arguments I would have to conclude that God would have to re-create the world--something that God has already rested from doing--He isn't going to recreate the earth--just make it new at some point.

So the Flood had to preserve the old earth. Noah had to preserve a sampling of creatures from his region to show God's intent to preserve not just the earth, but also the creatures that live upon the earth, including plants, animals, insects, worms, etc. A truly Global Flood would have destroyed all of these. Noah probably just took a sampling of animals that God brought to him, and not the "whole zoo" or "botanical collection," let alone birds and fish, insects and worms.

And I doubt he brought bags of seeds including all types of vegetation on earth. They require diverse habitats and careful preservation. In sum, the miracle of preserving every species of animal and plant would be a greater miracle than the miracle to create that much water to cover the entire globe!

And there isn't enough water to cover the earth and its highest mountains. The depth of the water, and the mix of water and salt would destroy marine creatures and freshwater creatures who require a specific habitat that a Global Flood would destroy. Not only that but many plant varieties would not survive.

I've heard many of the answers for these problems from "Global Flood" enthusiasts, but they don't really work for me. I think Ramm is right--the Bible is accurate and literal in saying that "the whole earth was covered" and that this was the perspective from an individual looking out from his local position. The "earth" doesn't have to mean "globe"--it can refer to "land." The whole "land" was covered--not the "globe."

The real worry here is that I'm not taking the Bible literally, and denying the powers of an infinite supernatural God. No, I'm not doing that. I believe God can change the universe in an instant, and still works miracles at His discretion.

But I think it is inconsistent for God to destroy the world He created and then have to re-create it. And I don't think the God who said, "Come, let us reason together" would make things so difficult to believe that rational men see no consistency in the account.

But this belief of mine is not one of the "essential" beliefs of our faith. We all believe the Bible--it's just a matter of language here for me.

I trust you'll understand this is *not* an attempt to liberalize God and His word. I believe that we have to be consistent with science and reason even as we preach a Gospel of faith.

I think we can believe that the flood was everywhere there was life.

Both animal and human life.


So if you believe that wasn’t over the whole earth, then hopefully we can all agree that it flooded everywhere there was animals and humans and Nephilim and anything else that had life; the life of flesh.


So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. Genesis 7:23


The sons of God who came into the daughters of man were unaffected, because they were angels.

 

[RandyK]

I think we can believe that the flood was everywhere there was life.

Both animal and human life.


So if you believe that wasn’t over the whole earth, then hopefully we can all agree that it flooded everywhere there was animals and humans and Nephilim and anything else that had life; the life of flesh.


So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. Genesis 7:23


The sons of God who came into the daughters of man were unaffected, because they were angels.

Again, for me it is a matter of perspective. All life was destroyed *within the region that could be viewed.* The "whole earth" would refer to "everything that could be seen in that region." The "earth" refers to "land."

If I stood out in my backyard and the entire yard flooded I could honestly say, "the entire yard is covered with water--even the highest parts." All of the creatures in my "whole yard" has died or drowned.

No, I absolutely do *not* believe "all life" on the Globe of the Earth died. I believe that "all life" within the range of this enormous local flood died, with the exception of the sampling of animals God brought to Noah to protect on the earth.

The idea was to show God's will to keep the earth preserved with all of its vegetable and animal life, as well as human life. I have no doubt, however, that the entire civilization that Noah lived among died, because that entire region was flooded.

 

[JLB]

Again, for me it is a matter of perspective. All life was destroyed *within the region that could be viewed.*

Ok. If that’s what you believe then so be it.

I’m trying to find common area’s unity we can start to agree on and build from there.


The scriptures teach us that all life on the earth was destroyed.

So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. Genesis 7:23

The only life that God intended to survive was housed in the Ark.

Can we agree on this point?

 

[RandyK]

Ok. If that’s what you believe then so be it.

I’m trying to find common area’s unity we can start to agree on and build from there.


The scriptures teach us that all life on the earth was destroyed.

So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. Genesis 7:23

The only life that God intended to survive was housed in the Ark.

Can we agree on this point?

Yes, I know and appreciate your wish to find common ground. I just don't think you fully appreciate my approach yet? I interpret the "earth" as the "land." That is a big difference and determines whether you are defining the earth as a "globe" or as the "visual land around you."

If I say "the whole earth is covered" I could indeed mean that the entire *globe* is covered. But if I say "the whole earth is covered" and really only mean that "the land around me is covered," then the language refers to something quite different.

If I'm just saying that the "whole land region around me is covered with water," then obviously only the creatures within the scope of that region are killed--not those on the other side of the globe.

We use the word "earth" as the "globe" quite frequently when reading this biblical passage. I don't think that's correct. The word could just as easily be "land" and could mean something quite different.

One view is based on a modern scientific view, which sees the "earth" as a "globe." That view didn't obviously exist when the Bible was written. It was written from a "visual perspective," a "local perspective."

Therefore, I believe the thought is best captured if we say "the whole land was covered with water" from the visual, local perspective of someone watching this take place in his region on the globe.

I believe that when we repeatedly read "globe" in the place where it says "the whole earth was flooded," we get it so fixed in our mind that this is a Global Flood that we are unable to read it any other way. We have to literally do "intellectual surgery" in order to be able to see it any differently. Repetition does this to our brains! ;)

 

[JLB]

Yes, I know and appreciate your wish to find common ground. I just don't think you fully appreciate my approach yet? I interpret the "earth" as the "land." That is a big difference and determines whether you are defining the earth as a "globe" or as the "visual land around you."

If I say "the whole earth is covered" I could indeed mean that the entire *globe* is covered. But if I say "the whole earth is covered" and really only mean that "the land around me is covered," then the language refers to something quite different.

If I'm just saying that the "whole land region around me is covered with water," then obviously only the creatures within the scope of that region are killed--not those on the other side of the globe.

We use the word "earth" as the "globe" quite frequently when reading this biblical passage. I don't think that's correct. The word could just as easily be "land" and could mean something quite different.

One view is based on a modern scientific view, which sees the "earth" as a "globe." That view didn't obviously exist when the Bible was written. It was written from a "visual perspective," a "local perspective."

Therefore, I believe the thought is best captured if we say "the whole land was covered with water" from the visual, local perspective of someone watching this take place in his region on the globe.

I believe that when we repeatedly read "globe" in the place where it says "the whole earth was flooded," we get it so fixed in our mind that this is a Global Flood that we are unable to read it any other way. We have to literally do "intellectual surgery" in order to be able to see it any differently. Repetition does this to our brains! ;)

I appreciate and understand your view.


This is the only point I ask you to agree upon.


The only life that God intended to survive was housed in the Ark.


Can we agree on this point?

 

[hawkman]

I hope I don't blow up our "friendship" here because I can never be anything but honest about my beliefs.

Not a chance . It certainly not a hill to die on for me , whole earth or just land . But I do like to talk about it .

I accept the biblical record of a kind of "universal Flood." But I don't really think the Bible is speaking in modern scientific terms involving a "globe." The earth was viewed as under us, with the sky above. And if the waters built up around us in every direction, covering the highest hills I can see the Bible describing the Flood as "covering all the earth, including the mountains, and killing all men and animals, except those in the ark."

So what you are saying is all the earth/land that mattered in the scheme of things was flooded , all the earth that had been corrupted as God said . In your thinking were all humans , other than those on the ark , wiped out ?

And there isn't enough water to cover the earth and its highest mountains. The depth of the water, and the mix of water and salt would destroy marine creatures and freshwater creatures who require a specific habitat that a Global Flood would destroy. Not only that but many plant varieties would not survive.

There is so very much we do not know about the antediluvian world such as what was the percentage of oxygen in the air . It has been suggested it was much higher and that is one of the reasons for such longevity of humans and the reason the animals and insects grew so much larger , I am speaking of the same species we have with us today .

Do you know what the land mass looked like before the flood ?

Do you know what the salinity of the waters were pre-flood ? Wow , a wide variation even today .



Have you ever tried to eradicate weeds from your garden , flower beds or yard ? Tough to do isn't it ?

Could it be the plants that did not survive the flood God had already considered that at the time of creation ?

Could it be the God had preplanned for the flood before the world was ever created so all the necessary components were already figured in ?