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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
Is baptism required for salvation?
- Thread starter dwb001
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- Apr 22, 2011
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John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
If you compare John 3:5 with 1 John 5:5-8 water means word as in the word being the living water (John 4:9-15) as in the Father, the word (living water Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.
The three that bear witness is Holy Spirit, Gods living word, and the blood of Jesus who made atonement for sin that we can be reconciled back to the Father.
Everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is all Gods word and Holy Spirit dwelling in or falling on and come to Earth in the form of a man in Christ Jesus. It's all Gods grace freely given to all who will believe in that faith that is Christ Jesus as He spoke Gods word (John 12:44-50 living water) and the Prophets and Apostles wrote and testified of what Jesus taught verbally.
It's Gods word that we are made righteous through Him, sanctified, justified and made Holy before Him. No dirty river water can save us, but is only an outward appearance to others that we have been washed clean (made righteous before God) by the blood of the Lamb and the renewing through the Holy Spirit.
The Jerusalem Bible
1 John 5:6 Jesus Christ who came by water and blood, not with water only, but with water and blood with the Spirit as another witness since the Spirit is truth 7 so that there are three witnesses, 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood and all three of them agree
KJV
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Literal water has nothing to do with salvation as Jesus came by the foretold word of the Prophets, sent by the Father, and signified by the Holy Spirit that lighted upon Him during John's water baptism for the remission of sins, Matthew 3:11-17. Three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, the water (word) and the blood. Three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost.
The more I think about "born again" Nicodemus had no understanding as even many today would ask the same question "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Jesus goes on to tell him "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Paul understood it was not by water baptism (BTW baptism is not mentioned in John 3:5), but by the word of God that we are sanctified, which means set apart and made holy. We being the church of God have been made clean by His word as we are washed in the blood of the Lamb.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Again Paul and also Peter gives us the understanding that being born again/born from above is not by actual water which would be a work of our own righteousness, but regeneration (new Spiritual life) that comes by God's mercy through His spoken word and Spirit (Holy Spirit).
IMO it doesn't matter if we say born again or born from above, but that we understand it is by God's grace through faith, which is Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross that we are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb and our spirit renewed by the very Spirit of God, (Holy Spirit)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Per the conversation Nicodemus and Jesus were discussing in John 3:9, 10 here are a few more OT verses that parallel being born again that Nicodemus should have known, but probably not emphasized as much since Jesus had to explain it to him.
1 Samuel 10:6 And the spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Job 25: 4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
There are around 1526 instances of living water in the Bible. Here are some verses on living water being the word. John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22
- Dec 2, 2022
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sorry Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
- Apr 22, 2011
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Where is the Roman Catholic Church mentioned in that verse?
"Other sheep" in that verse means Gentiles that are also part of the sheep of Christ through having heard the word of God and came to Him by faith in Christ.
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one flock one church
universal
how does wycliffe's concept of a nebulas cloud church function?
exercise authority?
excommunicate heretics?
teach all men?
govern the church?
administer the sacraments?
there must be a hierarchical jurisdictional functioning church as Christ established on peter and the apostles and their successors!!!
there is only one!
One God!
One Lord!
One savior!
One religion!
One new covenant!
One kingdom!
One household of faith!
One vineyard!
One church! (Not thousands of sects All teaching different doctrines all on the Bible alone, tradition of men)
Only Christ has authority to found the new covenant church! Matt 16:18-19
One shepherd one fold Jn 10:16
1 Tim 3:15 pillar and ground of truth!
- Apr 22, 2011
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Sorry, but it's not the Roman Catholic Church and their doctrines that we are saved by as it is Christ alone who is our salvation by the grace of God.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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If you believe scripture you would believe the teaching of the apostolic church which alone possesses the authority of Jesus Christ in union with Jesus Christ! matt 28:19-20 matt 16:18:19 Jn 20:21-23 acts 1:1-8
Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12
The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14
Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3
The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17
Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6
Must Hear Christ!
matt 3:17
Must hear the Church!
Matt 18:17 matt 28:19 acts 1:8
The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15
The gates of hell SHALL NOT prevail against the one, holy, Catholics,
& apostolic church founded by Christ on peter and the apostles!
Matt 16:18-19
Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach & sanctify all men unto eternal salvation of all men!
Christ and His church are one: Acts 9:4 mystical communion: eph 5:32
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eph 2:8 refers to redemption not salvation
why be praised if "not of yourselves"?
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do we have eternal salvation by Faith alone ?
- Jul 13, 2012
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Please share the scriptures where this taught.
The outward sign of the Old Covenant was circumcision.
Now we have our heart circumcised by the Spirit.
but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. Romans 2:29
Not the outward letter but and inward circumcision of the Spirit.
Not of man.
But of the Spirit of God.
Last edited:
Bruce.Leiter
Member
- Oct 12, 2024
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With infant baptism, the ceremony itself is the initiation where the parent(s) promises to raise the child in the Christian faith. The outward sign is the water, which points to the child's washing from God for his/her sins, when the child comes to believe in the Lord and then joins the church later with a profession of faith.
In adult baptism, the adult is usually instructed in the faith that he/she has come to believe as an initiation. Then, the water is the outward sign of the adult's professed faith.
In my view, both kinds of baptism are acceptable because baptism doesn't save a person; it only demonstrates God's salvation that he has given or will give that individual, all according to God's will and timing.
- Jul 13, 2012
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Stating an opinion and tagging the opinion with a scripture reference without posting the actual scripture itself is still just an opinion.
- Apr 22, 2011
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Yes we do. A good example of faith is that of the thief on the cross that at the last moment of his life he believed and had faith in Christ before he died and Jesus told him he would be in paradise that day. It had nothing to do with water baptism, but by having faith alone.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
- Apr 22, 2011
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Yes, we are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb having faith in Jesus.
Can you explain what you mean by "why be praised if not for ourselves".
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
- Apr 22, 2011
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- Jul 13, 2012
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Posting one’s opinion then tagging it with scripture especially Holley debated doctrines is extremely deceptive.
Why not expend the energy in posting the actual scripture itself and make your point from the words of the scripture.
I’m so tired of seeing long posts with paragraphs of copy and paste messages from their favorite “teacher” and just tagging that teachers opinion with a scripture reference.
It’s divisive.
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