Sinless To Be Saved

[Free]

I just don't hear evidence being taught.
Jesus said to be a light so that our good works may be seen and glory given to God.

Think about those two statements.

I stated that God doesn't require evidence.

We have to take all that the Bible says into account. God doesn't need evidence, we do, as I already stated. In the end God points to the evidence and essentially says "Here is why you're [not] coming to be with me."

Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ (ESV)

Aside from being an ironclad indictment against Trump and the false, ungodly, anti-Christian, fascist regime known as Republicanism--they are literally fulfilling verses 42-44--it is clearly the evidence of how the sheep treated other believers. Of course God doesn't need evidence, since he sees and knows all, their works are evidence to them and those gathered.

OK

Then we better start behaving well and obeying !

Of course.

Didn't hear any question that requires a reply.
I hear statements that do not make sense and which betray the questioner:
Statements about scales.
The limit of sins before one losses salvation.
Once a child always a child.
and so on....

You're gaslighting again. I asked: 'Is sin disobedience? If it is, then doesn't that mean we "decide whether or not to obey God," by not actually obeying him? Does one sin mean a person is no longer saved? Are we saved one minute and then not saved the next, the moment we sin?'

You replied: "I'm not replying to statements that make no logical sense."

I replied: "There is absolutely nothing illogical about them; they're just questions. Why do you continue to refuse to answer simple questions?"

You have now responded that you "Didn't hear any question that requires a reply." That is very dishonest, disingenuous, and disrespectful. I'm trying to have a conversation about an extremely important topic; I don't ask questions for the fun of it.

And I'll repeat it Free.

Your statements sound accusatory....

My quoting of you sounds accusatory, which I did because you said "you're not quoting what I state," when I had at that time also quoted you directly?

Here it is again:
Those that teach that behavior is not important are stating that a person could ACT however he wants to and still be saved.

What is the point of this argument? It has absolutely nothing to do with what anyone in this thread is arguing. Some likely believe that untruth somewhere in the world, but we should just stick to what others in this thread are saying, to keep it on topic and relevant.

Jesus said that those that DO NOT ACT on His words are fools.

Yes, I know.

I don't care for the "they were never saved to begin with" theory.
I don't find this in scripture...
If you do, please post some verses.

I did in post #449.

Jesus said a person could believe and then become lost.

Where, exactly, did he say that?

Paul a person could fall away...
fall away from what?

Where did he say that?

So IF a believer goes back to being sexually immoral, an idolater, adulterer, etc.
he will be as a tax collector...he will go back to his vomit.

It means he didn't abide in Christ to begin with...

 

[JLB]

It means he didn't abide in Christ to begin with...

Abide means remain.

In John 15 abide refers to remain connected or remain joined to Christ.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:5

• Here we see the positive aspect of remaining in Christ.

• Of course there is also the negative side if we do not remain in Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

If a person doesn’t remain joined to Christ then they no longer are joined to the eternal life in Christ Jesus.


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:12

 

[Beetow]

john/15-2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

To the folks unified with Christ, he's not a vine, rather, he's a shepherd; in point of
fact the good shepherd. (John 10)

Jesus has been tasked with managing a number of special sheep.

● John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me

Jesus' Father expects His son to be conscientious about the sheep's safety.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

Jesus never fails to give the One what He wants.

● John 4:34 . . My food is to do the will of the One who sent me.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

Now the thing is: were Jesus to lose even one of the sheep that his Father
entrusted to his care-- just one --then Jesus would not be able to say that he
"always" pleases the One who sent him. He could say that he pleases the One most
of the time, but certainly not always without fail.

People are actually casting a nay vote in regard to Jesus' competence when they
insist it's possible for him to lose some of the sheep that his Father gave him. Were
Christ an ordinary guy I would be inclined to agree with the skeptics; but his
miracles demonstrate that the good shepherd has all the powers and abilities of the
supreme being at his disposal to insure he succeeds at keeping the sheep right
where his Father wants them kept.

● John 10:9 . . I am the door; whoever enters through me shall be saved.

Were Christ an ordinary guy; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be saved" no, he'd
have to tone it down a bit and say shall be safer instead of shall be saved. That
would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says shall be saved, he's
claiming a 0.0% failure rate. That's how confident the good shepherd is that he will
lose nothing of the sheep given to him.

I propose that the true vine spoken of by John 15:1 isn't talking about Christ as the
good shepherd when in reality it's talking about Christ as the true Israel, and we know
from passages like Rom 9:6 that not all identified as Israel are in fact Israel. Well, it
appears to me that those are very likely the dead wood Jesus was talking about in
John 15:6.

NOTE: The corporate people of Israel are often depicted as a vine in the old testament. So
then Jesus-- as Abraham's, Isaac's. and Jacob's ultimate descendant --would quite
naturally be the people's central figure just as the patriarchs themselves were at
one time. (Gal 3:16)
_

 

[JLB]

To the folks unified with Christ, he's not a vine, rather, he's a shepherd; in point of
fact the good shepherd. (John 10)

What does I am the true Vine mean to you?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. John 15:1

 

[JesusFan]

Of course, but you're conflating two different things. Works are expected of Christians; I have repeatedly agreed and stated as much. Works are the evidence of having been saved, but they do not contribute to our salvation. If they did, then either Christ's death was insufficient or it was unnecessary.

The error on your part is in thinking that our obedience in doing good works contributes to our salvation. To use your words: "our good works save us" (HERE); "What keeps us saved is obeying God to the best of our ability" (HERE); "We must believe and obey to be saved" (HERE, twice); "OBEDIENCE is NECESSARY for salvation" (HERE); and "Our works keep us saved" (HERE and HERE).


Exactly. The point being, your position is akin to God putting all our works in a scale to see if it tips in the direction of "saved" or "unsaved," "heaven" or "hell."


No, it wouldn't end, because I already have given what it means. The issue is that it has more than one meaning and you're sticking to one, which may not even be a legitimate one.


You're gaslighting again. One more time: I have repeatedly agreed and stated we are to do good works. The error is in thinking that our obedience in doing good works contributes to our salvation, that they "keep us saved."


Yes, that was precisely my point.


Of course, but not for salvation. Jesus repeatedly states that it is belief in him, in his name, that one is saved. That's why John, Paul, Peter, and others say the same. Good works are done by those who are saved, but they don't keep one saved; Christ keeps people saved:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (ESV)


Of course it's the latter, but it depends on which "MAN," or "woman," is causing the conflict. Misunderstanding is generally caused by either reading into the text or ignoring context, that is, without proper study. John 15:2 isn't speaking of those who lose their salvation, but those who didn't have it to begin with. Note all that Jesus says in the passage, not only verse 2:

Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. (ESV)

So, those that do "not bear fruit" are those who do "not abide in [him]."

We are saved unto good works, not due to our good works

 

[GodsGrace]

For it is God Himself who will complete that which he started in all of us who are now the redeemed

Do you not have free will to walk away from God?

 

[GodsGrace]

I belive Jesus when he stated plainly that NONE whom the father has given to Him shall be lost, as ALL he shall raise up in the resurrection

Apparently, you do NOT believe Jesus.

What the Father has given to Jesus will be raised up
IF we endure to the end:

Jesus taught:

Matthew 10:22
22“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
Matthew 24:13
22“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course, but you're conflating two different things. Works are expected of Christians; I have repeatedly agreed and stated as much. Works are the evidence of having been saved, but they do not contribute to our salvation. If they did, then either Christ's death was insufficient or it was unnecessary.

The error on your part is in thinking that our obedience in doing good works contributes to our salvation. To use your words: "our good works save us" (HERE); "What keeps us saved is obeying God to the best of our ability" (HERE); "We must believe and obey to be saved" (HERE, twice); "OBEDIENCE is NECESSARY for salvation" (HERE); and "Our works keep us saved" (HERE and HERE).


Exactly. The point being, your position is akin to God putting all our works in a scale to see if it tips in the direction of "saved" or "unsaved," "heaven" or "hell."


No, it wouldn't end, because I already have given what it means. The issue is that it has more than one meaning and you're sticking to one, which may not even be a legitimate one.


You're gaslighting again. One more time: I have repeatedly agreed and stated we are to do good works. The error is in thinking that our obedience in doing good works contributes to our salvation, that they "keep us saved."


Yes, that was precisely my point.


Of course, but not for salvation. Jesus repeatedly states that it is belief in him, in his name, that one is saved. That's why John, Paul, Peter, and others say the same. Good works are done by those who are saved, but they don't keep one saved; Christ keeps people saved:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (ESV)


Of course it's the latter, but it depends on which "MAN," or "woman," is causing the conflict. Misunderstanding is generally caused by either reading into the text or ignoring context, that is, without proper study. John 15:2 isn't speaking of those who lose their salvation, but those who didn't have it to begin with. Note all that Jesus says in the passage, not only verse 2:

Joh 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

No.
John 15:2 states this:
EVERY branch IN ME (only the saved are In Christ)

So...the saved that do NOT bear fruit God takes away.

And read on....
branches that DO bear fruit will be PRUNED so that they could produce even more!

Not possible to twist these words around....
due to

Joh 15:6
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

The branch that does not abide IN CHRIST....
abide....
continue to live with....
that does not bear fruit....verse 2...
will be thrown away, gathered and burned.

IOW...it's a useless branch.

Matthew 7 confirms this.

The bible is one book...
it has to harmonize.

Joh 15:3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. (ESV)

So, those that do "not bear fruit" are those who do "not abide in [him]."

Absolutely....
if we do NOT CONTINUE to abide in Christ....
we will be gathered like useless branches and taken away.

Those that do not abide...are not saved.

John 15:2 is speaking about branches IN CHRIST....
saved persons.

• Continuing in a Relationship:
  In a spiritual context, like John 15 where Jesus speaks about abiding in him, "meno" implies a deep, ongoing relationship of dependence and love, where one remains connected to Christ and His teachings.
  
  
  Christ's teaching, as per John 15:2 is that we are to bear fruit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Think about those two statements.


We have to take all that the Bible says into account.

Yes sir.
But some do not.
They change what Jesus, or any other writer, to mean what THEY want it to mean.

I like to read the bible simply.
If it's read in this way,,,,the bible will have no conflict...
otherwise it has many.

God doesn't need evidence, we do, as I already stated. In the end God points to the evidence and essentially says "Here is why you're [not] coming to be with me."

Yes. In Matthew 7:23 Jesus clearly stated who is NOT going to be with Him.

23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

The lawless,,,,those that do not follow Jesus' teachings,,,,will be told to depart from Him.

I'd like to see some verses about God using "evidence"....
I suppose you mean that He will use our bad works against us....
If so, I agree.

This is why we cooperate with God and do good works.

Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ (ESV)

Aside from being an ironclad indictment against Trump and the false, ungodly, anti-Christian, fascist regime known as Republicanism--they are literally fulfilling verses 42-44--it is clearly the evidence of how the sheep treated other believers. Of course God doesn't need evidence, since he sees and knows all, their works are evidence to them and those gathered.

Looks like the ungodly fascist regime is going to clean up DC.
Looks like the ungodly fascist regime is making lots of money for the US by charging tariffs.
This regime might also stop a war that should have never started.

Such hatred Free...
Feeling hatred is like killing someone...
this according to Jesus.

Also, calling a govt of the US a regime really diminishes what a regime really is.
Maybe we should try living in one a year or two so we could know the difference.

Of course.


You're gaslighting again. I asked: 'Is sin disobedience? If it is, then doesn't that mean we "decide whether or not to obey God," by not actually obeying him? Does one sin mean a person is no longer saved? Are we saved one minute and then not saved the next, the moment we sin?'

You replied: "I'm not replying to statements that make no logical sense."

I replied: "There is absolutely nothing illogical about them; they're just questions. Why do you continue to refuse to answer simple questions?"

Which of your questions have I not replied to?
These posts have been going on for pages now.
You still have questions?

What are they?

You have now responded that you "Didn't hear any question that requires a reply." That is very dishonest, disingenuous, and disrespectful. I'm trying to have a conversation about an extremely important topic; I don't ask questions for the fun of it.

I didn't see any questions.
And I wouldn't want to speak to someone that is
DISHONEST
DISINGENUOUS
DISRESPECTFUL

This topic is so important that this and Calvinism are the only two topics to which I devote time.

I DO believe I've made myself very clear using Jesus and Paul's teachings.

My quoting of you sounds accusatory, which I did because you said "you're not quoting what I state," when I had at that time also quoted you directly?

How far back you wanna go Free?

If you have a serious question, please ask it...
otherwise this will be my last post regarding this.

What is the point of this argument? It has absolutely nothing to do with what anyone in this thread is arguing. Some likely believe that untruth somewhere in the world, but we should just stick to what others in this thread are saying, to keep it on topic and relevant.

The title of this thread is:
SINLESS TO BE SAVED

Here is what the OP stated:

If you want to be saved, you must keep the law of God which is defined in the 66 books of the Bible.
Keeping the law of God means thinking, speaking and acting as God wants you to.
I am speaking about the moral law, not about the ceremonial law.
The moral law: Do not worship idols, do not steal, do not murder, do not wear women's clothes, do not commit fornication, do not eat blood, and many more.
The ceremonial law was fulfilled by Jesus, therefore no one should obey the ceremonial law. If someone still wants to keep the ceremonial law, he has fallen from grace (Gal 5:4).

Faith means keeping the law,
loving God means following the commandments,
being a Christian means to imitate Jesus.

Matthew 19:16-17, "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:18-20, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commandments."
1 John 3:6, "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
Romans 6:1-2, "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"

And yes, it's possible to keep the law of God, for Deuteronomy 30:11 says: "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach."
And yes, there were people who were perfect, for Job 1:1 says: "and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."


I fully agree with the OP.
Some do not.

Yes, I know.


I did in post #449.


Where, exactly, did he say that?


Where did he say that?


It means he didn't abide in Christ to begin with...

Jesus did not speak, EVER, about someone not believing in Him to begin with.

If you have some verses, I'd really like to see them.
A few where Jesus states that the person did not obey Him because they were never really saved to begin with.

 

[GodsGrace]

To the folks unified with Christ, he's not a vine, rather, he's a shepherd; in point of
fact the good shepherd. (John 10)

What?
JESUS said HE is the true vine.

What did He mean??

Should we dispense with John 15?

Jesus has been tasked with managing a number of special sheep.

● John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me

Jesus' Father expects His son to be conscientious about the sheep's safety.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me

Jesus never fails to give the One what He wants.

● John 4:34 . . My food is to do the will of the One who sent me.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

Now the thing is: were Jesus to lose even one of the sheep that his Father
entrusted to his care-- just one --then Jesus would not be able to say that he
"always" pleases the One who sent him. He could say that he pleases the One most
of the time, but certainly not always without fail.

People are actually casting a nay vote in regard to Jesus' competence when they
insist it's possible for him to lose some of the sheep that his Father gave him. Were
Christ an ordinary guy I would be inclined to agree with the skeptics; but his
miracles demonstrate that the good shepherd has all the powers and abilities of the
supreme being at his disposal to insure he succeeds at keeping the sheep right
where his Father wants them kept.

● John 10:9 . . I am the door; whoever enters through me shall be saved.

Were Christ an ordinary guy; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be saved" no, he'd
have to tone it down a bit and say shall be safer instead of shall be saved. That
would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says shall be saved, he's
claiming a 0.0% failure rate. That's how confident the good shepherd is that he will
lose nothing of the sheep given to him.

I propose that the true vine spoken of by John 15:1 isn't talking about Christ as the
good shepherd when in reality it's talking about Christ as the true Israel, and we know
from passages like Rom 9:6 that not all identified as Israel are in fact Israel. Well, it
appears to me that those are very likely the dead wood Jesus was talking about in
John 15:6.

NOTE: The corporate people of Israel are often depicted as a vine in the old testament. So
then Jesus-- as Abraham's, Isaac's. and Jacob's ultimate descendant --would quite
naturally be the people's central figure just as the patriarchs themselves were at
one time. (Gal 3:16)
_

So the true Israel....the branches, will be gathered and burned?
I suppose then that Israel will be cast into the darkness where there will be gnashing of teeth.

Some have a problem when Jesus mentions certain teachings.
However, we should not change or add to scripture.
there's a warning about this...
maybe THAT is also to be rejected?