Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

Removed from Christ = no longer saved; no longer justified.

So you agree that the branches that are cut off are unbelieving branches, not believing branches.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In order to be saved we must obey the teachings of Jesus.

But not to become a saved person. That is what you are not getting.

But works are necessary to be saved from the wrath of God at the resurrection as validation and proof that you are a sheep. But in no way do your works make you a saved person, either now, or at the resurrection. The forgiveness of God, received by faith, does that all by it self.

 

[GodsGrace]

But not to become a saved person. That is what you are not getting.

But works are necessary to be saved from the wrath of God at the resurrection as validation and proof that you are a sheep. But in no way do your works make you a saved person, either now, or at the resurrection. The forgiveness of God, received by faith, does that all by it self.

This convo has come to an end.
I'm getting it Jethro.
We become saved
and THEN good works are necessary.
This is what YOU are not getting.
Your stuck in justification and cannot move on to sanctification.

And I posted several verses about how God does not need to see our validation and/or proof.

Our works KEEP US SAVED.
This is the simplest way to state it.

OBEDIENCE KEEPS US SAVED.
Disobedience will not keep us saved.

If we believe and obey we will be saved.
If we believe and do not obey we will not be saved.

Believe denotes obedience.
If we believe, have faith, in God but do not obey Him...
our faith is useless.

There is no such idea as FAITH ALONE, in the only true sense of the phrase....
in the NT.

Faith is accompanied by:
BAPTISM
LOVE

Faith Alone is not scriptural.

Just heard a Pew research on Christianity.
The atheists are taking over.
And is it any wonder....
We can't even agree between ourselves what Jesus taught.
'night.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This convo has come to an end.
I'm getting it Jethro.
We become saved
and THEN good works are necessary.
This is what YOU are not getting.
Your stuck in justification and cannot move on to sanctification

You don't get saved on the merit of sanctification, neither now or at the resurrection.

Your goods works are simply the evidence of the faith, all by itself, by which you have been made righteous in God's sight.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And I posted several verses about how God does not need to see our validation and/or proof.

And I showed you in the Bible why he does, even though he himself doesn't need proof of whether or not we have faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith Alone is not scriptural.

Yes it is. That is James' argument. What you don't think is scriptural is Paul's 'righteousness by faith apart from works' argument (Romans 4:6).

 

[JLB]

No such thing as a Prophet today. The complete Word of God is canonized. There is no need for a prophet when we all have the Holy Spirit IN us and our ability to read the actual Words given to us by God.

If the purpose of a prophet was to reveal truth from God, why would we need prophets if we have the completed revelation from God in the Bible?

If prophets were the “foundation” of the early church, are we still building the “foundation” today?

Can God give someone a message to deliver to someone else? Absolutely!

Does God reveal truth to someone in a supernatural way and enable that person to deliver that message to others? Absolutely! But is this the biblical gift of prophecy? No.

Whatever the case, whenever a person claims to be speaking for God (the essence of prophecy) the key is to compare what is said with what the Bible says. If God were to speak through a person today, it would be in 100% complete agreement with what God has already said in the Bible. God does not contradict Himself.

I personally call that Good Teaching!

Yes. I agree. That is what is called good teaching by Churchianity today.

All opinion with no scripture.

 

[JLB]

What work did Abraham do? Again.....Nothing to be justified.

Believe me, it comes as no surprise to hear you say that, even though the scripture plainly says… Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Abraham like everyone else who has been justified, was done so by the obedience of faith.

The “work” Abraham did was to obey the word to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

 

[JLB]

Call 'em what you want, but when they are cut out of the vine they are unbelievers.

They are no longer in Christ and thus are no longer saved.

 

[JLB]

The lost sheep is an unbelieving sheep. The one who practices sin is not born again. That's what the Bible says. You can't change that.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
Luke 15:4

The one hundred sheep belong to the shepherd.

They are His sheep. They are all justified.

• there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

His sheep who becomes lost is now referred to as a sinner who must repent in order to be saved.

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

When the sheep who was lost, repents and returns, then he is considered justified again; saved, right with God.

 

[JLB]

Wrong. The person who willingly falls away is not allowed to come back to repentance.

This is not to discourage people who have struggled in the faith and backslidden. It is the person who willfully and knowingly falls away out of love for their sin and out of deliberate unbelief that are not allowed to repent again, crucifing Christ all over again, subjecting him to open shame.

Falling away, which refers to renouncing Christ as Messiah while being persecuted in order to save his natural life but lose his eternal life. They don’t endure to the end of their life but give in to the temptation to renounce Christ to save the own life.

This is what the parable of the sower teaches, and the book of Hebrews.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

This context continues through Hebrews 6 all the way to Hebrews 10.

He concludes this thought with verse 39 -

But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Same context in the parable of the sower.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

Both Luke and Matthew teach the same thing.

We both know we must believe to the end otherwise our believing we did in the beginning is useless.


The lost sheep is about a brother who sins, and refuses to repent.

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

 

[JLB]

So you agree that the branches that are cut off are unbelieving branches, not believing branches.

The branches that are removed from Christ by the Father, are removed because they are unfruitful.

They never produced fruit.

While they were in Christ they were saved.

They believed and were saved, then because they didn’t produce fruit, much like the servant who buried his coin, they were removed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Our works KEEP US SAVED.
This is the simplest way to state it.

No. Your works don't keep Christ interceding in heaven for you (Hebrews 7:25). Your faith does.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The branches that are removed from Christ by the Father, are removed because they are unfruitful.

They never produced fruit.

While they were in Christ they were saved.

They believed and were saved, then because they didn’t produce fruit, much like the servant who buried his coin, they were removed.

Are the unfruitful branches that are cut off believing branches, or unbelieving branches when they are cut off?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith is accompanied by:
BAPTISM
LOVE

Faith Alone is not scriptural.

Righteousness by faith apart from works does not mean having a faith that does not work.

It means righteousness is obtained by faith apart from consideration of your works. But you serve a gospel where your righteousness depends on your works - what you call your progressive sanctification.

 

[JLB]

No. Your works don't keep Christ interceding in heaven for you (Hebrews 7:25). Your faith does.

If you don’t obey Christ’s teachings will you remain saved?

Example: His teaching on forgiveness


If you don’t obey His commandments will you remain in Christ?

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

 

[tdidymas]

While sinless perfection is unattainable in this life, 1we are to try and live a life of "Less Sin". We can do that because Sin does not, or may I say, should not dominate the believer to live in or continue to do KNOWN Sin.

I agree with what you're saying; however, I'd like to clarify this statement "we are to try and live a life of 'less sin.'"

Paul says emphatically that there are certain acts of sin, if practiced, will prevent a person from inheriting the kingdom of heaven (1 Cor. 6 et al). For example, if I was an adulterer before conversion, and I commit adultery less after conversion, am I still born again? The way I read scripture, "less sin" doesn't cut the mustard here. Less adultery is still practicing adultery, and Paul declares such people will not be entering heaven.

So "less sin" has to be limited to things not in the infamous list, things like trying to treat people better, getting help concerning addictions, etc. Rom. 8:12-14 "brethren, we have an obligation, not to live according to the flesh; because if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh you will live, for all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God."

Christians who live carnal lives should justly have a guilty conscience and question their salvation. Only when a person sincerely repents from sin, trusting Christ for deliverance, does a person enter the promise of rest and experience peace with God. For example, if I look down on others, I should be seeking for the Spirit to change my attitude toward others, since Paul calls that "vain glory."

My point is, there are minor sins that people can easily forgive and tolerate, as we should, to be patient for others to become more mature in the faith. Such sins we might tolerate in ourselves, if they can be called sins, because of personality defects. But sins that the Bible explicitly says that God will not tolerate should not be tolerated by us; rather, we ought to take Biblical warnings seriously.

My point in all this is to clarify the term "sins" that is usually kept vague, and make distinctions between sin leading to death and sin not leading to death, as John does in 1 Jn. 5.

 

[tdidymas]

Thanks for your input. It seems to me that you are going out of your way to be confrontational and have an argument.

I do not agree with it but you have the freedom to say it.

I am sorry that you do not have the ability to understand that when someone says...........
"we cannot be sinlessly perfect, is actually saying we can't keep the commandments! "

What part of that is so hard to understand my friend. They are one in the same !

Sin is breaking the Law of God. Do you not grasp the elementary thought process of such an event?
The person who claims to live a "sinless life" can not possibly do so because he or no one else can keep all the Commandments of the Law.

So can you love your neighbor?...........Absolutely.
So can you love God..................................Absolutely.

You're still missing the point, and this is what's frustrating. No, I'm not trying to have an argument.

But you haven't answered the question: can you love your neighbor? Is this Christ's commandment? Does this fulfill the law?

If you agree with the above, then the idea that you can't keep the commandments is in error. Perhaps when you say you can't keep the commandments, you are talking about the "613 laws of the Jews" - but again, your communication is not specific, and is easily misunderstood. Why not be clear about it?

 

[tdidymas]

If you don’t obey Christ’s teachings will you remain saved?

Example: His teaching on forgiveness


If you don’t obey His commandments will you remain in Christ?

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

If you don't obey Christ's commandments, were you ever saved in the first place?

Judas was with Jesus over 3 years, and he did nothing to indicate to the other disciples that he was evil. Yet, Jesus called him "the son of perdition." As far as we can tell, Judas obeyed all that Jesus commanded, along with the other disciples, except at the end the devil got to him because he was NOT saved.

So, the one who proves he is actually saved is the one who endures to the end; that is, endures in abiding in Christ and keeping His commandments. And this can't be done without the faith that justifies.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you don’t obey Christ’s teachings will you remain saved?

Example: His teaching on forgiveness


If you don’t obey His commandments will you remain in Christ?

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

It depends on if you are sinning the sins of the believer growing up into the image and stature of Christ, or sinning the sins of the (ex)believer who has rejected Christ. Which are you referring to?

A believer doesn't lose his salvation every time he sins. I hope you don't believe that. There are growing pains associated with being a child of God for which you do not lose your salvation. A believer has to reject Christ and go back to unbelief to lose his salvation.

As long as the believer continues to believe and trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin their sin is continually atoned for by the blood they continue to believe in. The believer doesn't lose that forgiveness every time he sins as long he remains in Christ by faith.