Origin of GOOD and EVIL!

[Elijah7777]

God is a just God?

John Wesley teaches that God’s justice demands holiness, but also makes a way for sinners through Christ. The teachings of John Wesley on holiness have shaped not just Methodists, but a wide array of Christian movements across centuries and continents.

 

[Elijah7777]

Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

I think we need to look more into this "awareness".

Just how do they have "no good reason"?
.

 

[GodsGrace]

According to Rom. 9, it is obvious that God chooses who will be saved. So the question is, how is that just? Very simply, justice is people getting what they deserve. Sinners deserve lake of fire judgment, according to many statements in scripture, both old and new testaments. If God chose not to save any man, He would still be just, because everyone deserves lake of fire judgment, regardless of how religious they try to make themselves. Self-righteousness does not merit salvation.

But Rom. 9 clearly says that God has mercy on whom He desires, and by the very nature of the statement means that He has mercy on some, not all. And mercy is not part of justice, nor does it have anything to do with justice, except to circumvent it. Mercy is an exception to justice. So God is not obligated in any way to have mercy on everyone, just because He decided to have mercy on some.

Therefore, your question that if God choses some for salvation and some to be passed over, how is that just - is a question that lacks understanding. Now you're the one who must define justice according to how you are using the word. Justice does not require mercy on anyone, much less on everyone, just because mercy is given to another. But God has the right to do whatever He wants with His own creation.

Rom. 3:10-18 clearly states why God is not obligated to save anyone. But in fact He does save some, as Paul argues in the rest of Romans (and 1 Cor. 1&2 and Eph. 2). First accept what God says about Himself and His choices (even if you don't understand it), then you will be in a better attitude to later understand what it means.

Terrible Philosophy.

If JUSTICE means giving to each person what they deserve....
and God wants to be a JUST God,,,as He is....

then we should all be going to hell.

The moment God chooses some to go to heaven He is no longer a JUST God because He is NOT giving to the chosen persons what they deserve.

You also stated that justice does not require mercy.
Thanks for making my argument for me.

You are describing a God that is NOT JUST.

Romans 9 has nothing to do with this discussion.
Romans 3:10 has nothing to do with this discussion.

This discussion is about whether or not God is a just God.
In YOUR theology,,,He is not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you saying, GodsGrace, that we all should be declared guilty and be sent to hell, because God is a just God?

According to the argument made by the other member...yes, this is what I'm saying.
It is NOT what I believe...let's not get confused.

God is either just or He is not.

He is indeed our just Judge, because he is our Maker, but he laid his just verdict of guilty for believers on his unique Son on the cross so that we can be declared not guilty as evidence of his grace, love, and mercy.

yadda yadda Bruce.
I'm tired and it's nonsense to state this to a believer in Jesus.

I don't know why God doesn't save every human because of his love;

Have you not read the NT???
It states why.

the Bible doesn't say,

Yes it does Bruce.
If I can remember, I'll be back here tomorrow.
It's 1:30AM here.

but it must be a very good reason, which he hasn't revealed to us.

With a Master of Divinity you don't know that God HAS revealed His plan for salvation?

However, all humans are fully responsible for their whole lives,

How could that be if God predestinated EVERYTHING...
I've posted to you on this but you haven't replied.
I've posted John Calvin and other top theologians stating that God CAUSES evil to happen....
if this is so..
HOW are we responsible for our actions if we do NOT determine our actions?

which are justly condemned and punished, if they don't repent and trust in Jesus.

Ooooh. I think you've got it!
See, you DO know what saves a person.

Good night Bruce
sorry if I sound a bit snarky...am tired.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you saying, GodsGrace, that we all should be declared guilty and be sent to hell, because God is a just God?

Good morning Bruce...
Let's be clear about what I'm saying.
Another member stated that God is a just God (replying to me) and that we all deserve hell and that God is good because He's saving some.....(my wording).

THIS is exactly what makes God be unjust.
If God is just then He will judge that everyone goes to hell.

But this does not happen.
Why?

God is certainly a just God.
And what is justice?
It is giving to each person what they deserve.
Each person does not deserve hell because God has given to His creatures a way out....
an opportunity to be saved----from both satan's oppression here and hell with him hereafter.

This is accomplished by giving to each person the the opportunity by choosing to serve God....this is done by believing in His Son Who is the atonement for the sins of man.

There are conditions to being saved.
If we accept those conditions, then §God will be faithful to His word and will save those persons.

He is indeed our just Judge, because he is our Maker, but he laid his just verdict of guilty for believers on his unique Son on the cross so that we can be declared not guilty as evidence of his grace, love, and mercy.

Correct. And we we accept the condition of accepting His Son...
We WILL be saved.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
This is the condition.
Belief in His Son.

I don't know why God doesn't save every human because of his love; the Bible doesn't say, but it must be a very good reason, which he hasn't revealed to us.

§God does not save every human because every human does not accept His conditions.
God has revealed to us how to be saved.
THIS is why Jesus came to us....
to reveal to us HOW to become saved.

1 John 5:10-12
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:13
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 1:3
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

However, all humans are fully responsible for their whole lives, which are justly condemned and punished, if they don't repent and trust in Jesus.

Agreed 100%.

The bible teaches that we are to repent.

Matthew 4:17
17From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Acts 2:38
38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


We are responsible for our moral choices because of our free will to choose either good or evil.
If we do not choose freely, a just God will not hold us responsible.
We cannot deserve, what we do not choose.

 

[live2blieve]

Hello live2blieve, as I just posted, my answer to your question is that God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality, beginning with Adam and Eve. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31).

Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word. And it is right for the ungodly to go to hell.

It looks like God creates possibilities rather than knows exactly what and why He creates. This is not the Creator of the Bible:

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (Isaiah 46:9,10).

 

[live2blieve]

Like a violin perfectly tuned in the master's hands. When the strings are too long or two short than the instrament just makes noise. So Jesus retunes the violin. I like to use Hooke's law for this.

1. The Law of the String (Hooke’s Law)

• Every string resists being stretched.
• Too much force? It snaps.
• Too little? It sags.
• The right tension? It sings.

2. The Violin Was Good


3. The Strings Were Twisted


4. The Master Retunes

Do I understand you correctly that evil is created by people and the Creator has nothing to do with it?

 

[Free]

Terrible Philosophy.

If JUSTICE means giving to each person what they deserve....
and God wants to be a JUST God,,,as He is....

then we should all be going to hell.

No, he is correct. Justice means to get what you deserve. No one wants to receive God's justice, but that is what unbelievers will receive.

We want his mercy (not getting what we deserve) and his grace (getting what do not deserve), which are found only through faith in Christ's work.

The irony is, in other discussions, which we won't start into here, you continually point to getting what we deserve, except that those who do good go to heaven and those who don't are the only ones who go to hell. You've quoted a couple of times:

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)

Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. (ESV)

Again, I don't want the discussion of this to move into this thread. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency in your position on things. So, you need to figure out if "JUSTICE means giving to each person what they deserve....
and God wants to be a JUST God,,,as He is.... then we should all be going to hell," is correct, or if being judged according to our works is God being just and some--those who do good--don't go to hell. Both of those ideas contradict; they cannot both be true.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, he is correct. Justice means to get what you deserve. No one wants to receive God's justice, but that is what unbelievers will receive.

We want his mercy (not getting what we deserve) and his grace (getting what do not deserve), which are found only through faith in Christ's work.

The irony is, in other discussions, which we won't start into here, you continually point to getting what we deserve, except that those who do good go to heaven and those who don't are the only ones who go to hell. You've quoted a couple of times:

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)

Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. (ESV)

Again, I don't want the discussion of this to move into this thread. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency in your position on things. So, you need to figure out if "JUSTICE means giving to each person what they deserve....
and God wants to be a JUST God,,,as He is.... then we should all be going to hell," is correct, or if being judged according to our works is God being just and some--those who do good--don't go to hell. Both of those ideas contradict; they cannot both be true.

Hi Free....
Please see my post no 45.

Justice means that we get what we deserve.
The method that the reformed use to explain this makes God be UNJUST.
If He is just,,,then we should all be going to hell.
OR
We should all be receiving the same chance at salvation.

If He is going to save some for heaven and retain His just character...
then He will have to give to everyone the same OPPORTUNITY to be saved.

God has taught us that there are CONDITIONS.
If a person accepts those conditions...he can be saved.
If a person does NOT accept those conditions...he cannot be saved.

God is not a respector of persons.

Romans 2:11 GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY. (my wording).
Acts 10:34 GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY. (my wording).

There are more verses,,,but these two reflect my understanding of God's just character.

If it is God that chooses some for heaven and some to be damned
for no reason at all....
then He becomes unjust.

 

[Free]

Hi Free....
Please see my post no 45.

Justice means that we get what we deserve.
The method that the reformed use to explain this makes God be UNJUST.
If He is just,,,then we should all be going to hell.
OR
We should all be receiving the same chance at salvation.

If He is going to save some for heaven and retain His just character...
then He will have to give to everyone the same OPPORTUNITY to be saved.

God has taught us that there are CONDITIONS.
If a person accepts those conditions...he can be saved.
If a person does NOT accept those conditions...he cannot be saved.

God is not a respector of persons.

Romans 2:11 GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY. (my wording).
Acts 10:34 GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY. (my wording).

There are more verses,,,but these two reflect my understanding of God's just character.

If it is God that chooses some for heaven and some to be damned
for no reason at all....
then He becomes unjust.

Maybe he has his reasons, maybe he doesn't need any...

Rom 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (ESV)

I agree with John Piper that:

"God is free to have mercy on whom he’ll have mercy. He is free to show mercy and grace to whomever he wills. Nobody deserves it, and God is not unjust to give it freely to whomever he will, and not to another.
...
Paul’s overall point in this section is that God is just in having mercy on whom he will (Romans 9:14). He does no one — no human being ever anywhere — any wrong. He always upholds the infinite value of what is infinitely valuable — that is, his righteousness. He upholds his glory.

In his absolute, glorious freedom — “I’ll have mercy on whom I have mercy; I’ll be gracious to whom I’ll be gracious” — he makes known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy. That’s verse 23, and that’s the ultimate goal of the universe. Those vessels of mercy are prepared beforehand by God for glory.

But in this very moment, the vessels of mercy (I’m talking now to our listeners) are everyone and anyone who calls on the name of the Lord."

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/why-does-god-choose-some-and-not-others

 

[Elijah7777]

the Creator has nothing to do with it?

correct, by definition evil is anything God has nothing to do with. What He is not a part of. God is good, life, health and healing. His is perfect Justice and His scales are perfectly balanced. The Grace of God works the Justice of God in us. We are transformed and we become Just before God. His tender Mercy endures forever.

 

[Free]

correct, by definition evil is anything God has nothing to do with. What He is not a part of. God is good, life, health and healing. His is perfect Justice and His scales are perfectly balanced. The Grace of God works the Justice of God in us. We are transformed and we become Just before God. His tender Mercy endures forever.

What do you mean by "The Grace of God works the Justice of God in us"? By definition, believers are under the grace of God, having been imputed the righteousness of God, and so declared righteous (we have been justified).

It seems you may be confusing either righteousness with justice, or justification with God's justice, or both. But, those are three distinct terms. Only unbelievers will face the justice of God and get what they deserve.

 

[tdidymas]

Terrible Philosophy.

If JUSTICE means giving to each person what they deserve....
and God wants to be a JUST God,,,as He is....

then we should all be going to hell.

The moment God chooses some to go to heaven He is no longer a JUST God because He is NOT giving to the chosen persons what they deserve.

You also stated that justice does not require mercy.
Thanks for making my argument for me.

You are describing a God that is NOT JUST.

Romans 9 has nothing to do with this discussion.
Romans 3:10 has nothing to do with this discussion.

This discussion is about whether or not God is a just God.
In YOUR theology,,,He is not.

Rom. 9 & 3 has everything to do with the discussion. It appears to me by your response here, specifically "then we should all be going to hell" that you don't understand the gospel, God's grace, or God's mercy. Apparently your idea that opposes this Biblical teaching is that "God .. is NOT giving to the chosen persons what they deserve." This tells me that you believe "what they deserve" (the chosen) is based on their MERIT. Is this not true? Do you not believe that the chosen are going to heaven because they merited going there? How can anyone come to a different conclusion about what you said?

 

[tdidymas]

20. From my viewpoint, you have everything backward, because of some twisted idea that you read into the scripture. [[LOL! That's what I was talking about in my conclusion. You took the words right out of my mouth!]]

21. I've already said numerous times that salvation and eternal life is a free gift from God, and God gives it to those with zero merit. [[No, that is what I & GW say; what YOU say is that God elects [unconditionally = forces] only some to get saved. You misrepresent what you both say and imply.]]

you abjectly misrepresent what I say

22. You have yet to explain that nonsensical idea of "non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God's grace". [[This is why I said maybe GG can explain it better, because to me it makes perfect sense and I don't see how to say it any simpler. IOW, IMO YOU are illogical and have the burden of proof.]]

Your logic is so poor that you can't even explain it.

23. "Sour 16"?? You have the burden to prove that any scripture is sour to a true believer. It seems to me that you don't understand what you're talking about. You don't understand TULIP. [[You prove the 16 are sour IYO by kicking against their goad. Methinks YOU do not understand TULIP, but here is mine:
T – total depravity, meaning souls are unable to exercise sufficient MFW to seek salvation.

Read Rom. 3:10-18, as it applies to every unregenerate soul, which included everyone (you and me both) before spiritual regeneration. Eph. 2:1-3 also applies. But of course you don't believe this, because you think you came up with the worthiness to be saved by your "cooperation." That is, your operation in conjunction with God's grace made you saved. This is a merit model.

U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell.

Rom. 5:6 - Christ died for the ungodly, not for those who think they merit eternal life.
Rom. 4:5 - And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.
But of course, you reject this, because you think salvation comes to those who merit it by "cooperation."

L – limited atonement, meaning that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin only for elect souls.

I already quoted Rev. 5:9 - "For You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation" - but of course, you don't believe this either, because your bias prevents you from accepting the plain language of scripture.

I – irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist or refuse God’s will for them to be saved.

If God Himself has never confronted you, then I can see why you can't believe that God would do such a thing. According to your theology, God is a "gentleman" who wouldn't force anyone to do anything, because He's too "nice." I think you have a rude awakening coming. That nice, gentle Jesus you believe in said, "fear Him who can destroy both your body and soul in gehenna." I assert that God does make people fear Him; but since you don't believe that, perhaps you'll be lulled to spiritual sleep.

P – perseverance of the saints, meaning that the elect cannot repudiate their salvation and commit apostasy, because God perseveres in keeping them saved.

Again, 1 Pet. 1:5 - "we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation..." But then, you don't believe this either, since you believe in keeping yourself safe.

Do YOU understand MFW?

"Free will" is a fantasy that people think they have, in order to maintain a false sense of security for themselves, imagining that they are in control of their eternal future. When a person doesn't believe that God is the one in control of their eternal future, they think they don't have to fully trust Him for it. Their only option, then, is to trust in their own ability to obey God's commands all their life, which is what the apostle Paul opposed in saying things like this: "that I may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own, but having a righteousness that comes by faith in Jesus Christ."

So, "moral free will" is something that applies only to those already born again, wherein their will has been freed from the bondage of sin. This is what Rom. 6 is all about. And if a born-again Christian has been freed from the bondage of sin, then such a person cannot return therein, because their experience of peace with God is far too precious to them to throw it away on ungodly behavior that leads to apostasy.

But according to your responses, it appears that you believe in traditional ideas rather than what scripture actually says.

24. It doesn't matter what my bio is, or yours. [[It does if yours includes being brain-washed to believe TULIP.]]

25. Even the terms in TULIP are not really contributive to the actual doctrines taught by Reformed Theology, and taken out of context can be easily misconstrued. [[You may have just indicated the main disconnect in our entire discussion, because I am not talking about Reformed Theology, but only about TULIP.]]

Your idea that the tulip model is not Reformed Theology is wrong. The remonstrants came up with the acronym in order to oppose it, because they could not accept the idea of free grace. You need to carefully read The London Baptist Confession of 1689, and see that the tulip model is taught there, as well as The Westminster, Belgic, and other confessions.

With that revelation, are we suddenly simpatico?

Not sure what you mean by this. But if you keep on misrepresenting what I say, I'll stop responding to you.

 

[tdidymas]

I am glad we both are concerned to learn GW, so here are my replies regarding the Scripture you cited.

I can't respond to acronyms. What's "GW"?

1. 1 Jn. 4:7-12 is written to Christians, not unbelievers. It does not say that God's love is universal. It says God loved "us," not "the whole world." [[You illustrate ignoring GW, in this case John 3:16, Matthew 5:44&48 & Romans 5:8&15 and Romans 3:21-26 for starters.]]

I can't respond to acronyms. What's "GW"?

2. If God loved Hitler the same as He loves you, then Hitler is now smoking a cigar in paradise. Obviously there are degrees of love just as there are degrees of justice, reward, and punishment. [[No, obviously you ignored the fact that Hitler exercised his God-given MFW to chose not to satisfy GRFS, so he condemned himself to a just hell.]]

What's "GRFS"?

3. Rom. 5:8 - again, Christ died for "US" - that is, those who believe, that is, the elect. It doesn't say that Christ died for everyone in the world. [[Your gift seems to be kicking against the goad of GW, in this case RM 3:21-26 & 5:15 for starters.]]

I can't respond to acronyms. What's "GW"?

4. 1 Pet. 2:24 says, "He bore our sins..." - "our," meaning God's elect, who at some time in their lifetime will hear the gospel, understand, and believe. If someone doesn't believe in Christ, then "he bore our sins" will have no interest to them (except to demean the statement somehow). [[Again, you contradict 1 Pet. 3:9 as well as RM 5:15-17 & 3:21-26]]

You need to show how those verses are contradicted. I suspect you misinterpret them because of your bias.

5. The fact that God chooses to love some more than others is His prerogative, and in no way does anyone's "cooperation" obligate Him to love them. [[You kick against Paul's goad that God does not choose to love some more than others, which is the very meaning of favoritism!]]

Wrong again. You haven't explained it. You're just making assertions.

6. Mat. 5:44-48 - You can't see that this is speaking to people who are born of God, seeing that He says, "your Father in heaven"? [[It is interesting to see the contortions you go through in order to warp the plain teaching, in this case by denying that the passage teaches God loves even His enemies, which would include unbelievers!]]

Your idea contradicts Paul's clear teaching that some are elected in Eph. 1 & elsewhere.

7. Gal. 5:6,14 - Again, it is speaking to true believers, and in no way says that God's love is universal. Certainly God loves everyone in some way [[You just contradicted even your self!]]

More assertions without explaining anything.

8. to claim that this verse teaches that God loves everyone the same is nonsense. It begs the question, what exactly do you mean by "omnilove"? It sounds like nonsense to me, from a Biblical standpoint. [[Amazing! Do you think it teaches God hates anyone? The question begged is what sort of parents did you have? Mine were very loving, so it is easy enough for me to believe that God loves omni.]]

9. Eph. 3:17-19 - You need to define "omnilove" clearly, because it looks to me like you're way off here. Eph. 3:17-19 is talking about knowing God's love for you personally, having a personal relationship with Him. Are you actually trying to claim that this verse teaches that God loves everyone the same? [[Omnilove is defined by 1Tim. 2:3-4 & John 3:16, for starters. It means God desires to have a loving personal relationship with everyone.]]

10. Eph. 5:2 is a command to Christians to "walk in love."... Is this your own personal interpretation, or are you parroting what someone else said? [[The command is for everyone to walk in love, like God, whom I parrot, so they won't experience the wrath that those who disobey will experience (v. 6)]]

11. 1 Tim. 2:3-4 - Finally, you came across a verse that seems to contradict the TULIP idea. I'll repeat v. 4 here: "who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." But does it actually contradict it? I say it depends on how you define "wants" or "desires", and how you define "all men" or "all people." [[Finally? It depends on how you define "seems".]]

12. Jesus redeemed people "out of every kindred..." This means that redemption did not happen for everyone, and therefore God didn't love everyone the same. [[No, it means that although Jesus loved and wanted to redeem all in Jerusalem, many were not willing to accept Him as Messiah (Mat. 23:37).]]

13. It means that in context of the whole NT, that only the elect of God were redeemed. [[It means that elect (MT 24:22,24&31) = disciples (MT 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (JN 3:3&7) = believers (JN 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (ACTS 9:32, RM 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (ACTS 11:26, 26:28) = saved (ACTS 16:30-31) = those in Christ (RM 8:1, EPH 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (RM 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (RM 8:14-21) = the grafted in (RM 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1CR 1:2) = God’s people (1CR 16:1) = church/saints (2CR 1:1 = the faithful/holy (EPH 1:1, PHP 1:2) = chosen in Christ (EPH 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (EPH 2:19) = soldier/worker (PHL v.2&24) ]]

14. So then, if God "desires" that "all men" be saved, then "all men" has to mean "men out of every nation," or "all sorts of men." It cannot mean every person who ever lived. [[Oh yes it can. How you belittle how wide and deep is the love of Christ (Eph. 3:18)! ]]

15. Anyone who takes it to mean every person who ever lived is adding something to the text. [[No, you subtract from GW.]]

16. But even if Paul meant to say that God wants everyone to be saved (the way it is commonly read), then God's desire that everyone be saved is in some way a contradiction to His actions that only some are saved. [[Yes, and that way is because MFW does not make grace irresistible.]]

17. God is sovereign in the salvation of men. Man's "free will" in choosing to believe and be saved is the result of God making a person spiritual (1 Cor. 2:14), [[No, what you describe is God programming a robot.]]

18. if you claim that an individual "cooperates" with God's grace by "choosing to believe" and that this results in a person being saved, then you are teaching that in some way a person must merit God's grace to be saved. [[No, GW teaches that faith is the non-meritorious condition of receiving God's gift, just as when you give someone a present they must choose to accept and open it for it to be received--but they can reject it.]]

19. My conclusion is that your "7 pearls" lack luster. [[Somehow I knew that was coming. Oh well, you can lead someone to water... Maybe GG can explain it better.]]

I guess I will see what you say in part 2, though. No hard feelings; just consternation because my conclusion
is the opposite of yours, and one would think that Christian siblings would be able to achieve greater agreement regarding the meaning of Scripture, (so one wonders if/how Matthew 13:14-15 = Acts 28:26-27 applies).
TTYL

I'm not going to finish this. You abjectly misrepresent what I say, you make assertions without any scriptural explanation about how you are arriving at your interpretation, and it just goes on, like Paul's description of "endless debates." At this point, I'm done with you.

 

[KV-44-v1]

If the apostle Paul is correct in saying that God elected people for salvation (his words, "to adoption as sons"), then you are judging Paul's teaching as unjust. Your opinion falls flat when compared with scripture.

"God chooses who will be saved, it is impossible for anyone to come to Him of their freewill" does not seem true. If that is true, there is NO REASON to spread the Gospel. The person you preach to willl be saved anyways, so don't bother preaching!
If i believed what you believe I would never try to win a single soul to Christianity. Because in that belief, God will "do all the heavy lifting".

 

[KV-44-v1]

Free will" is a fantasy that people think they have, in order to maintain a false sense of security for themselves, imagining that they are in control of their eternal future. When a person doesn't believe that God is the one in control of their eternal future, they think they don't have to fully trust Him for it. Their only option, then, is to trust in their own ability to obey God's commands all their life, which is what the apostle Paul opposed in saying things like this: "that I may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own, but having a righteousness that comes by faith in Jesus Christ."

So for all you know, you, Tdidymas, are automatically on the road to the lake of fire, and there is NOTHING YOU CAN BELIEVE OR DO to stop it. How. Do. You. Know??

God is in control AND people have free will.

Don't make assumptions about HOW much control God IS exerting over creation. It just says God IS in control. Not how much or what specifically He is doing. We do not know the extent.
But you think the extent is 100%. Mabye it is, mabye not. We do NOT know. God Knows.

In the meantime, your "pre-set!!" belief serves NO PURPOSE other than to demoralize Christians and rack up scorn from nonChristians and discourage true seekers. Your belief is purely radioactive toxic acid to one's faith.

 

[KV-44-v1]

snarky

I like snark mode! break out the popcorn!!

 

[Elijah7777]

"then we should all be going to hell"

I prayed about this once. The answer I received was that God is a God of absolute and perfect justice. His scale is evenly balanced. His justice is as accurate and precise as the universe itself—just like the laws of physics that govern creation. We know those laws are incredibly precise and reliable, and so is His justice.

 

[Elijah7777]

How. Do. You. Know??

How do we know? Jesus is the way, gate or door. So are we lawless or are we walking in righteousness before God. This is why we are born again and a new creation in Christ. Are we holy, sanctified and worthy to enter into the tabernacle? Many are called, few are choosen.

Matthew 7:22–23:

“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

The word "many" gets my attention. Paul talks about "many"
1 Corinthians 11:30

“That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.”