Origin of GOOD and EVIL!

[Elijah7777]

God is a just God?

John Wesley teaches that God’s justice demands holiness, but also makes a way for sinners through Christ. The teachings of John Wesley on holiness have shaped not just Methodists, but a wide array of Christian movements across centuries and continents.

 

[Elijah7777]

Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

I think we need to look more into this "awareness".

Just how do they have "no good reason"?
.

 

[GodsGrace]

According to Rom. 9, it is obvious that God chooses who will be saved. So the question is, how is that just? Very simply, justice is people getting what they deserve. Sinners deserve lake of fire judgment, according to many statements in scripture, both old and new testaments. If God chose not to save any man, He would still be just, because everyone deserves lake of fire judgment, regardless of how religious they try to make themselves. Self-righteousness does not merit salvation.

But Rom. 9 clearly says that God has mercy on whom He desires, and by the very nature of the statement means that He has mercy on some, not all. And mercy is not part of justice, nor does it have anything to do with justice, except to circumvent it. Mercy is an exception to justice. So God is not obligated in any way to have mercy on everyone, just because He decided to have mercy on some.

Therefore, your question that if God choses some for salvation and some to be passed over, how is that just - is a question that lacks understanding. Now you're the one who must define justice according to how you are using the word. Justice does not require mercy on anyone, much less on everyone, just because mercy is given to another. But God has the right to do whatever He wants with His own creation.

Rom. 3:10-18 clearly states why God is not obligated to save anyone. But in fact He does save some, as Paul argues in the rest of Romans (and 1 Cor. 1&2 and Eph. 2). First accept what God says about Himself and His choices (even if you don't understand it), then you will be in a better attitude to later understand what it means.

Terrible Philosophy.

If JUSTICE means giving to each person what they deserve....
and God wants to be a JUST God,,,as He is....

then we should all be going to hell.

The moment God chooses some to go to heaven He is no longer a JUST God because He is NOT giving to the chosen persons what they deserve.

You also stated that justice does not require mercy.
Thanks for making my argument for me.

You are describing a God that is NOT JUST.

Romans 9 has nothing to do with this discussion.
Romans 3:10 has nothing to do with this discussion.

This discussion is about whether or not God is a just God.
In YOUR theology,,,He is not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you saying, GodsGrace, that we all should be declared guilty and be sent to hell, because God is a just God?

According to the argument made by the other member...yes, this is what I'm saying.
It is NOT what I believe...let's not get confused.

God is either just or He is not.

He is indeed our just Judge, because he is our Maker, but he laid his just verdict of guilty for believers on his unique Son on the cross so that we can be declared not guilty as evidence of his grace, love, and mercy.

yadda yadda Bruce.
I'm tired and it's nonsense to state this to a believer in Jesus.

I don't know why God doesn't save every human because of his love;

Have you not read the NT???
It states why.

the Bible doesn't say,

Yes it does Bruce.
If I can remember, I'll be back here tomorrow.
It's 1:30AM here.

but it must be a very good reason, which he hasn't revealed to us.

With a Master of Divinity you don't know that God HAS revealed His plan for salvation?

However, all humans are fully responsible for their whole lives,

How could that be if God predestinated EVERYTHING...
I've posted to you on this but you haven't replied.
I've posted John Calvin and other top theologians stating that God CAUSES evil to happen....
if this is so..
HOW are we responsible for our actions if we do NOT determine our actions?

which are justly condemned and punished, if they don't repent and trust in Jesus.

Ooooh. I think you've got it!
See, you DO know what saves a person.

Good night Bruce
sorry if I sound a bit snarky...am tired.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you saying, GodsGrace, that we all should be declared guilty and be sent to hell, because God is a just God?

Good morning Bruce...
Let's be clear about what I'm saying.
Another member stated that God is a just God (replying to me) and that we all deserve hell and that God is good because He's saving some.....(my wording).

THIS is exactly what makes God be unjust.
If God is just then He will judge that everyone goes to hell.

But this does not happen.
Why?

God is certainly a just God.
And what is justice?
It is giving to each person what they deserve.
Each person does not deserve hell because God has given to His creatures a way out....
an opportunity to be saved----from both satan's oppression here and hell with him hereafter.

This is accomplished by giving to each person the the opportunity by choosing to serve God....this is done by believing in His Son Who is the atonement for the sins of man.

There are conditions to being saved.
If we accept those conditions, then §God will be faithful to His word and will save those persons.

He is indeed our just Judge, because he is our Maker, but he laid his just verdict of guilty for believers on his unique Son on the cross so that we can be declared not guilty as evidence of his grace, love, and mercy.

Correct. And we we accept the condition of accepting His Son...
We WILL be saved.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
This is the condition.
Belief in His Son.

I don't know why God doesn't save every human because of his love; the Bible doesn't say, but it must be a very good reason, which he hasn't revealed to us.

§God does not save every human because every human does not accept His conditions.
God has revealed to us how to be saved.
THIS is why Jesus came to us....
to reveal to us HOW to become saved.

1 John 5:10-12
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:13
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 1:3
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

However, all humans are fully responsible for their whole lives, which are justly condemned and punished, if they don't repent and trust in Jesus.

Agreed 100%.

The bible teaches that we are to repent.

Matthew 4:17
17From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Acts 2:38
38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


We are responsible for our moral choices because of our free will to choose either good or evil.
If we do not choose freely, a just God will not hold us responsible.
We cannot deserve, what we do not choose.

 

[live2blieve]

Hello live2blieve, as I just posted, my answer to your question is that God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality, beginning with Adam and Eve. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31).

Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word. And it is right for the ungodly to go to hell.

It looks like God creates possibilities rather than knows exactly what and why He creates. This is not the Creator of the Bible:

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (Isaiah 46:9,10).

 

[live2blieve]

Like a violin perfectly tuned in the master's hands. When the strings are too long or two short than the instrament just makes noise. So Jesus retunes the violin. I like to use Hooke's law for this.

1. The Law of the String (Hooke’s Law)

• Every string resists being stretched.
• Too much force? It snaps.
• Too little? It sags.
• The right tension? It sings.

2. The Violin Was Good


3. The Strings Were Twisted


4. The Master Retunes

Do I understand you correctly that evil is created by people and the Creator has nothing to do with it?

 

[Free]

Terrible Philosophy.

If JUSTICE means giving to each person what they deserve....
and God wants to be a JUST God,,,as He is....

then we should all be going to hell.

No, he is correct. Justice means to get what you deserve. No one wants to receive God's justice, but that is what unbelievers will receive.

We want his mercy (not getting what we deserve) and his grace (getting what do not deserve), which are found only through faith in Christ's work.

The irony is, in other discussions, which we won't start into here, you continually point to getting what we deserve, except that those who do good go to heaven and those who don't are the only ones who go to hell. You've quoted a couple of times:

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)

Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. (ESV)

Again, I don't want the discussion of this to move into this thread. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency in your position on things. So, you need to figure out if "JUSTICE means giving to each person what they deserve....
and God wants to be a JUST God,,,as He is.... then we should all be going to hell," is correct, or if being judged according to our works is God being just and some--those who do good--don't go to hell. Both of those ideas contradict; they cannot both be true.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, he is correct. Justice means to get what you deserve. No one wants to receive God's justice, but that is what unbelievers will receive.

We want his mercy (not getting what we deserve) and his grace (getting what do not deserve), which are found only through faith in Christ's work.

The irony is, in other discussions, which we won't start into here, you continually point to getting what we deserve, except that those who do good go to heaven and those who don't are the only ones who go to hell. You've quoted a couple of times:

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)

Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. (ESV)

Again, I don't want the discussion of this to move into this thread. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency in your position on things. So, you need to figure out if "JUSTICE means giving to each person what they deserve....
and God wants to be a JUST God,,,as He is.... then we should all be going to hell," is correct, or if being judged according to our works is God being just and some--those who do good--don't go to hell. Both of those ideas contradict; they cannot both be true.

Hi Free....
Please see my post no 45.

Justice means that we get what we deserve.
The method that the reformed use to explain this makes God be UNJUST.
If He is just,,,then we should all be going to hell.
OR
We should all be receiving the same chance at salvation.

If He is going to save some for heaven and retain His just character...
then He will have to give to everyone the same OPPORTUNITY to be saved.

God has taught us that there are CONDITIONS.
If a person accepts those conditions...he can be saved.
If a person does NOT accept those conditions...he cannot be saved.

God is not a respector of persons.

Romans 2:11 GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY. (my wording).
Acts 10:34 GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY. (my wording).

There are more verses,,,but these two reflect my understanding of God's just character.

If it is God that chooses some for heaven and some to be damned
for no reason at all....
then He becomes unjust.

 

[Free]

Hi Free....
Please see my post no 45.

Justice means that we get what we deserve.
The method that the reformed use to explain this makes God be UNJUST.
If He is just,,,then we should all be going to hell.
OR
We should all be receiving the same chance at salvation.

If He is going to save some for heaven and retain His just character...
then He will have to give to everyone the same OPPORTUNITY to be saved.

God has taught us that there are CONDITIONS.
If a person accepts those conditions...he can be saved.
If a person does NOT accept those conditions...he cannot be saved.

God is not a respector of persons.

Romans 2:11 GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY. (my wording).
Acts 10:34 GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY. (my wording).

There are more verses,,,but these two reflect my understanding of God's just character.

If it is God that chooses some for heaven and some to be damned
for no reason at all....
then He becomes unjust.

Maybe he has his reasons, maybe he doesn't need any...

Rom 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (ESV)

I agree with John Piper that:

"God is free to have mercy on whom he’ll have mercy. He is free to show mercy and grace to whomever he wills. Nobody deserves it, and God is not unjust to give it freely to whomever he will, and not to another.
...
Paul’s overall point in this section is that God is just in having mercy on whom he will (Romans 9:14). He does no one — no human being ever anywhere — any wrong. He always upholds the infinite value of what is infinitely valuable — that is, his righteousness. He upholds his glory.

In his absolute, glorious freedom — “I’ll have mercy on whom I have mercy; I’ll be gracious to whom I’ll be gracious” — he makes known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy. That’s verse 23, and that’s the ultimate goal of the universe. Those vessels of mercy are prepared beforehand by God for glory.

But in this very moment, the vessels of mercy (I’m talking now to our listeners) are everyone and anyone who calls on the name of the Lord."

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/why-does-god-choose-some-and-not-others