G
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?
- Thread starter Butch5
- Start date
Butch5
Member
I notice you didn't post any Scripture to support that claim. Firstly, Paradise is the Garden of Eden in the restored creation, not Heaven. If you read Ezekiel you'll find it there. Secondly, you've not yet established from Scripture that anyone goes to heaven so at this point this would simply be an opinion. I has, however, been established that man will live on the earth forever.
Butch5
Member
Deborah13:
...and I think as well that John 3.16 provides a very full and satisfactory answer!
Blessings.
The passage says nothing about Heaven. No one is arguing about eternal life, the question is where will it be. We've already established from the Scriptures hat it will be on earth.
farouk
Member
Deborah13:
...and I think as well that John 3.16 provides a very full and satisfactory answer!
Blessings.
The passage says nothing about Heaven. No one is arguing about eternal life, the question is where will it be. We've already established from the Scriptures hat it will be on earth.
Butch: Well, I haven't extablished it. I know the JWs believe something along those lines.
Butch5
Member
A separation between the Church and Israel?
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (Rom 11:1 KJV)
According to Paul the Church is grafted into the Olive tree, which is Israel.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:1 KJV)
Christians are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. What inheritance was promised to Abraham?
KJV Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (Gen 17:8 KJV)
Abraham and his seed were promised the land as an "everlasting" possession. Who is the seed that this promise is speaking of?
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:1 KJV)
So Abraham and Christ will inherit the land as an "everlasting" possession. Will anyone else inherit the land?
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (Rom 8:1 KJV)
Join-heirs with Christ. So Christ's inheritance is also the believers inheritance, and as we've seen that inheritance is the eternal land inheritance. He says the creation will be delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God. No, the Church isn't going to live in Heaven.
Butch5
Member
Deborah13:
...and I think as well that John 3.16 provides a very full and satisfactory answer!
Blessings.
The passage says nothing about Heaven. No one is arguing about eternal life, the question is where will it be. We've already established from the Scriptures hat it will be on earth.
Butch: Well, I haven't extablished it. I know the JWs believe something along those lines.
The Scriptures have established it, all one needs to do is read Psalm 37 or Jesus' quote of it.
You are correct about the JW's they do believe it. It's sad that the Church rejects the truth in this matter and holds to a Gnostic doctrine.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi Butch and I'm sorry I'm not going back through 7 pages of post to discover if this has been said, but in answer to paradise in 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that Paul was caught up into paradise?
Next I would ask of those with Jesus in Revelation 4:4 and 4:6 round about and in the midst of the throne, those of Revelation 7:9, After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem Hebrews 12:22), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
If you've already addressed these I'll withdraw and say thanks anyway.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Not all Christians do. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=33387&p=496507&viewfull=1#post496507
I didn't believe I was promised Heaven despite being a Christian for decades. The scriptures are pretty definitive in affirming that Heaven is a real place. This place, this heaven though, is not a place that is promised to all who follow Jesus and practice righteousness.
If we read what the Bible says that the hope of the early Israelites was before the time of Jesus, we will see things like what Job said about death:
Job 14:12, ‘So, when man goes to sleep he won’t rise again, until [the stars] are sewn together… they never awaken from sleep.’
Psalm 49:19, 20 says of a man who dies, ‘From generation to generation he’ll go down to his fathers, and through the ages he’ll never see light. For a man of honor does not realize, that he resembles the unthinking cattle, and that he very much like them.’
Psalm 146: 3, 4 says, ‘Do not rely upon rulers… the sons of men who have no salvation. For, His breath goes out; he’s gone from his land; and in that day his thoughts pass away.’
The Bible Hope
Then, what hope did faithful men and women of old (such as King David) have for life after death? They believed that in some future time, God would resurrect them and bring them back to life. And although the faithful man Job was the first to mention his hope of a resurrection, the first person to prophecy about it was a woman, Hannah, the mother of the Prophet Samuel.
1 Samuel 2:7, 8
‘For, Jehovah kills and gives birth to the living;
He takes them to the grave and leads them back out.
It’s Jehovah who makes the poor and the rich;
Yes, He humbles and raises.
He resurrects the needy from the ground,
And He raises the poor from the dirt,
To seat them with the mighty of the people,
Where a throne of glory they’ll inherit.’
And when did they believe that ‘the poor’ would be raised ‘from the dirt?’ Well, Job prayed (at Job 14:13-15 LXX)
‘O that in the grave You had guarded and hid me ‘til You anger had passed away. Please order a time to be set for me when You’ll mention my name once again. Can a man live again after he dies, once the days of his life have past? As for me, I will wait ‘til I live again, when You will call me and I’ll listen.’
So, the clear hope of the earliest servants of God was that He would remember them at some future time and resurrect them back to life, when they may be rewarded for their faithfulness by being appointed kings.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Let's talk About Heaven
I am interested in seeing scriptural evidence that suggests that a heavenly inheritance is promised to all believers. From what I read in the scriptures, Heaven was mentioned as a reward very sparingly and in fact not until Jesus in the NT brought it up in reference to the Kingdom. It seems like the heavenly promise was made by Jesus to a select group as opposed to all believers of all time. The hope of the righteous that Jesus made possible according to how I currently understand scripture is not Heaven, but rather LIFE.
(Jn 10:10b).... I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
(Jn 5:39-40).. "You search the Scriptures, because you suppose that in them you will find the Life of the Ages; and it is those scriptures that yield testimony concerning me; and yet you are unwilling to come to me that you may have Life.
(Jn 6:68)..."Master," replied Simon Peter, "to whom shall we go? Your teachings tell us of the Life of the Ages.
(Jn 11:25)..."I am the Resurrection and the Life," said Jesus; "he who believes in me, even if he has died, he shall live;
(Rom 6:21-23)...What fruit had ye then in those things of which ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from the tyranny of Sin, and have become the bondservants of God, you have your reward in being made holy, and you have the Life of the Ages as the final result. For the wages paid by Sin are death; but God's free gift is the Life of the Ages bestowed upon us in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(1 Jn 2:24-25) .... As for you, let the teaching which you have received from the very beginning continue in your hearts. If that teaching does continue in your hearts, you also will continue to be in union with the Son and with the Father. And this is the promise which He Himself has given us--the Life of the Ages.
(Jn 10:10b).... I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
(Jn 5:39-40).. "You search the Scriptures, because you suppose that in them you will find the Life of the Ages; and it is those scriptures that yield testimony concerning me; and yet you are unwilling to come to me that you may have Life.
(Jn 6:68)..."Master," replied Simon Peter, "to whom shall we go? Your teachings tell us of the Life of the Ages.
(Jn 11:25)..."I am the Resurrection and the Life," said Jesus; "he who believes in me, even if he has died, he shall live;
(Rom 6:21-23)...What fruit had ye then in those things of which ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from the tyranny of Sin, and have become the bondservants of God, you have your reward in being made holy, and you have the Life of the Ages as the final result. For the wages paid by Sin are death; but God's free gift is the Life of the Ages bestowed upon us in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(1 Jn 2:24-25) .... As for you, let the teaching which you have received from the very beginning continue in your hearts. If that teaching does continue in your hearts, you also will continue to be in union with the Son and with the Father. And this is the promise which He Himself has given us--the Life of the Ages.
G
George Muller
Guest
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why did you add a reference to this verse in my quote (highlighted by me in red)? My original quote is this: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52140&p=808853&viewfull=1#post808853
But anyway...we see from the entire message Jesus spoke there in John that he is referring to the Holy Spirit which he would send back to the world. And he did that so that we could be where he is at--in the glory of God, where he is at. Read it, you'll see. Which I think is the point of what Paul meant when he said "(he) raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 1:6 NASB). IOW, John 14:3 is not a verse about the second coming. Nor is it a verse about us being in heaven. But we will go there when we die and will be with Christ in his triumphant second coming to earth.
No, actually I was referring to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:22 NASB.
Even if you want to believe the story is a parable it makes no sense at all that Jesus would invent something that doesn't happen to illustrate something that does. From the passage we see no such thing as 'soul sleep', and we see angels delivering departed spirits to wherever they go when they die, and the simple fact they do go somewhere out of this earth when they die. Coupled with Paul's 'go to be with Jesus' we can see how the doctrine of 'going to heaven' is developed from the scriptures, not some man's vain imagination.
Sorry, but this does not explain all the saints who comes back with Jesus from heaven at the second coming. Obviously those still alive on earth at that time are not those coming back with Jesus at the second coming.Paul said "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep." 1 Thess. 4:15 As we can see here Jethro those who have "fallen asleep" i.e. died are not in heaven but are awaiting as we the 2nd Coming of the Lord. But hey if it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to believe that when we die we straight to the Kingdom of Heaven then by all means continue to do so.
Uh no Jethro Jesus did NOT say anything about the Holy Spirit in the verse that i posted...that is something that you added. Jesus said that he would raise them up on the last day when he returned....how you get the Holy Spirit out of this is poor hermaneutics. Saints coming back from heaven? what are you talking about?? You have once again added your preconcieved beliefs to scripture. Let my put this as simple as i can. Jesus while he was here on earth 2000 years ago told his followers of that day that he was going to return one day and raise them up so that they may be where he is also. Jesus has NOT returned yet Jethro so those people he spoke to are still awaiting to be resurrected as you and i will if we die before he returns. Why is that so complicated? Oh and yes the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a fictional story. A fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth.Why did you add a reference to this verse in my quote (highlighted by me in red)? My original quote is this: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52140&p=808853&viewfull=1#post808853
But anyway...we see from the entire message Jesus spoke there in John that he is referring to the Holy Spirit which he would send back to the world. And he did that so that we could be where he is at--in the glory of God, where he is at. Read it, you'll see. Which I think is the point of what Paul meant when he said "(he) raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 1:6 NASB). IOW, John 14:3 is not a verse about the second coming. Nor is it a verse about us being in heaven. But we will go there when we die and will be with Christ in his triumphant second coming to earth.
No, actually I was referring to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:22 NASB.
Even if you want to believe the story is a parable it makes no sense at all that Jesus would invent something that doesn't happen to illustrate something that does. From the passage we see no such thing as 'soul sleep', and we see angels delivering departed spirits to wherever they go when they die, and the simple fact they do go somewhere out of this earth when they die. Coupled with Paul's 'go to be with Jesus' we can see how the doctrine of 'going to heaven' is developed from the scriptures, not some man's vain imagination.
Sorry, but this does not explain all the saints who comes back with Jesus from heaven at the second coming. Obviously those still alive on earth at that time are not those coming back with Jesus at the second coming.Paul said "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep." 1 Thess. 4:15 As we can see here Jethro those who have "fallen asleep" i.e. died are not in heaven but are awaiting as we the 2nd Coming of the Lord. But hey if it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to believe that when we die we straight to the Kingdom of Heaven then by all means continue to do so.
G
George Muller
Guest
No one can say this is fictional! Thats just your opinion, probably because it goes against some doctrine you hold. Jesus does not use fiction, and the point was and is the man went to heck, Lazarus went unto Abraham.
Butch5
Member
Hi Truth,
I don't think anyone is questioning the life, it's where that life will be lived. I submit the Scriptures teach that man will live on earth as I've shown from numerous Scriptures.
Butch5
Member
Hi Truth,
I agree with you here. I think the is issue where will they be after they are resurrected?
Butch5
Member
Hi Eugene,
One thing we need to keep in mind here is that in all of these passages John and Paul are seeing visions. John for instance is seeing Heaven and earth at the same time so it's hard for use to say someone before the throne is actually in Heaven. Additionally, Revelation uses a lot of symbolism which may not be literal.
You quoted Rev 14:1 and Jesus standing on mount Sion, that's on the earth. When Jesus return it will be to mount Zion.
Rev 4 doesn't say who the 24 elders are and Rev 7 can easily be people on earth as John is in spirit. Likewise I believe the souls under the alter in chapter 5 is metaphorical since the Scriptures clearly teach that when a man dieAC his body returns to the dust and the spirit/breath returns to God as it is God's spirit. That leaves nothing to live on. If there is nothing left to live on what can John be seeing? It can't actually be people, so it have to be either after the resurrection at which point the Scriptures teach man will live on earth of a metaphor.
Even if these were real people, none of these passage that Heaven is the final destiny of the believer or that these people were dwelling in Heaven.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
That's the all but unanswerable question Butch. When we look at the word resurrection or the Greek, anastatis (sp?) and understand that the word implies only that that which was dead at some point would stand erect again, the most logical conclusion is that the resurrected would be raised to stand on the very ground/earth they were once dead on. Scriptures that tell us the earth will be destroyed raise some doubt. What also raises doubt is the rendering of the word, 'earth' in the texts. Does it literally refer to the entire globe that orbits the sun, or is earth simply a reference to land, a land that can be earthy, otherworldly, or perhaps even Heavenly?
Jack Hectorman
Member
`
George Muller, post 12, quoted John 14:1-3
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
(that settles it for me)
littlelight, post 13, quoted 2 Cor. 5:1
"For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."
(that settles it for me)
Jethro Bodine, post 14, quoted a passage from I Thess. chapter 4
Imo, the substance of which was located in 4:17, saying in effect that all Christians will end up in Heaven.
We most certainly are not going to live forever "in the air", and the whole point of the passage is that we leave the Earth, and the final conclusion of the passage in 4:17 is, "And so we will be forever with the Lord" which is an obvious reference to being in Heaven.
This passage gives you 3 choices:
(1) Live forever "in the air" ... LOL thats a silly interpretation
(2) Return to the Earth to live ... LOL again, that interpretation contradicts the whole point of the I Thess. 4:13-18 passage.
(3) Live forever in Heaven with the Lord ... This is the logical/reasonable interpretation of I Thess. 4:13-18
(that settles it for me)
I Thess.4:13-18
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
(all that up there settles it for me)
______________________
Jethro Bodine, post 16, quoted I Pet. 1:4
"... an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you..."
(that settles it for me)
I will stand firmly with the position stated above by George Muller, littlelight, Jethro Bodine, and others who support their position on this issue.
Cheers.
♫♫
PS
Jethro Bodine's comment in his post 35 "made my day" ... I got a good laugh outta that one ... Jethro, I couldn't agree more with your excellent comment.
LOL ...I hear you on the "formal ministry" thing! It can be dangerous to one's health these days ... LOL.. the Deacon Board may get together and decide to "offer up their pastor as a burnt offering" because he holds the wrong view on some little minor point that is near and dear to the heart of the Top Deacon's wife ... LOL /just kidding around, but the joke does make a decent point...
George Muller, post 12, quoted John 14:1-3
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
(that settles it for me)
littlelight, post 13, quoted 2 Cor. 5:1
"For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."
(that settles it for me)
Jethro Bodine, post 14, quoted a passage from I Thess. chapter 4
Imo, the substance of which was located in 4:17, saying in effect that all Christians will end up in Heaven.
We most certainly are not going to live forever "in the air", and the whole point of the passage is that we leave the Earth, and the final conclusion of the passage in 4:17 is, "And so we will be forever with the Lord" which is an obvious reference to being in Heaven.
This passage gives you 3 choices:
(1) Live forever "in the air" ... LOL thats a silly interpretation
(2) Return to the Earth to live ... LOL again, that interpretation contradicts the whole point of the I Thess. 4:13-18 passage.
(3) Live forever in Heaven with the Lord ... This is the logical/reasonable interpretation of I Thess. 4:13-18
(that settles it for me)
I Thess.4:13-18
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
(all that up there settles it for me)
______________________
Jethro Bodine, post 16, quoted I Pet. 1:4
"... an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you..."
(that settles it for me)
I will stand firmly with the position stated above by George Muller, littlelight, Jethro Bodine, and others who support their position on this issue.
Cheers.
♫♫
PS
Jethro Bodine's comment in his post 35 "made my day" ... I got a good laugh outta that one ... Jethro, I couldn't agree more with your excellent comment.
LOL ...I hear you on the "formal ministry" thing! It can be dangerous to one's health these days ... LOL.. the Deacon Board may get together and decide to "offer up their pastor as a burnt offering" because he holds the wrong view on some little minor point that is near and dear to the heart of the Top Deacon's wife ... LOL /just kidding around, but the joke does make a decent point...
Last edited by a moderator:
Jack Hectorman
Member
George, below are some very interesting arguments that support your position on this.
The Rich Man and Lazarus – Luke 16:19-31
For George, or anyone else who is interested, here is the lengthy article stating the reasons:
http://new.bereanbiblesociety.org/the-rich-man-and-lazarus-luke-1619-31/
Cheers.
♫
Butch5
Member
Hi Jack,
If you believe that Lazarus and the rich man proves a conscious existence after death can you please explain to me how that fits the context of what Jesus has been saying?