Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[TimothyW]

According to the Bible the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in Hell being tortured. Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him shall not PERISH but have eternal life.

The traditional view of Hell as a place where the wicked go to be eternally and endlessly tortured by the devil is simply wrong.

 

[Sparkey]

Death is indeed the wages of sin. Life is promised to believers.

 

[Claudya]

The traditional view of Hell as a place where the wicked go to be eternally and endlessly tortured by the devil is simply wrong.

Yeah but it was very convenient for the mediaeval church. Selling indulgence letters was a good source of money to build all those impressive cathedrals many of which are still standing and looking impressive; and the fear of burning in hell forever kept the flock docile.

 

[JLB]

According to the Bible the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in Hell being tortured. Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him shall not PERISH but have eternal life.

The traditional view of Hell as a place where the wicked go to be eternally and endlessly tortured by the devil is simply wrong.

What does death mean, in the verse you gave.

Is it referring to death of the physical body, or death to the soul.


Those who believe shall not perish.

What about those who don't believe, where do they go?


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

All these things shall be made known to the point that every knee shall bow and every mouth shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. There will be no gainsaying nor anyone who may resist the truth known; that God is Just and Merciful. What shall we say today? Will our words become shadows of our eternal proclamation? Hosanna! (is the one word that comes to mind).

Sparrow

 

[TimothyW]

What does death mean, in the verse you gave.

Is it referring to death of the physical body, or death to the soul.


Those who believe shall not perish.

What about those who don't believe, where do they go?


JLB

You asked, What about those who don't believe, where do they go? They perish, they do not survive and go to Hell to live forever in torment, because living forever in Hell is the opposite of perishing.

You ask, what does death mean? Death is the absence of life. The Bible says that the soul who sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:4) so thinking that it is only the body that dies and the soul survives is not Biblical. Also Jesus said "be afraid of the one who can destroy BOTH body and soul in Hell (Gehenna). So people claim that death is something they call "spiritual death", but there is no mention in the Bible of "spiritual death". This concept was made up in order to justify belief in eternal conscious torment in Hell. The Bible never uses the phrase "spiritual death", and the concept is never described in the Bible.

Believers are promised eternal life. The opposite of this is life that ends. Nonbelievers are never promised eternal life, not in Hell or anywhere else.

I'm just saying what the Bible says.

 

[WIP]

So how do we explain these verses from Mark 9 in this context?

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—
44 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—
46 where
‘Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire—
48 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

 

[TimothyW]

So how do we explain these verses from Mark 9 in this context?

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—
44 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—
46 where
‘Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire—
48 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24
“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”The fire that will not be quenched" is not burning living people or souls, it is burning dead people. And Jesus says that "it is better to enter life", the opposite of that is not entering life, which is another way of saying "perishing". Those verses do not prove that dead people are alive in hell being tortured, they prove that sinners will perish unless they repent and turn to Jesus Christ for eternal life.

So how do we explain Romans 6:23 and John 3:16 (and a multitude of other verses) if the wages of sin is NOT DEATH, and everyone has eternal life including those who perish?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We see in Revelation Chapter 20 that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all thrown into the lake of burning sulfur and they are tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then those whose names were not written in the Book of Life were thrown into the lake of fire.

Now whatever this lake of fire is, it certainly does not say that they will perish, but rather they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Claudya]

So how do we explain these verses from Mark 9 in this context?

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—
44 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—
46 where
‘Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire—
48 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Timothy got that covered with his answer.
The word for "hell" in those verses was "gehenna", which was a real place everyone in Jerusalem (and probably most people in Israel) knew at that time, so Jesus took it as a metaphor. Gehenna was a burning garbage dump for Jerusalem's wastes and for the bodies of those that were considered unworthy of a real burial. It was in a valley and was thought to be desecrated and defiled because priests had worshipped Ba'al and sacrificed to him there. So it was a fitting place to use as a garbage dump.
The fire was burning day and night, all the time, so it may indeed stand for an eternal fire. There were probably worms, too, in those parts that weren't burning. But the people thrown in there didn't suffer forever. Most of them didn't suffer at all, because they were already dead. And those unfortunate to be alive when thrown into gehenna died from fire or smoke inhalation. That's cruel, but doesn't last forever. The fire may be eternal, but the torment for the individual in there is not.

We see in Revelation Chapter 20 that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all thrown into the lake of burning sulfur and they are tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then those whose names were not written in the Book of Life were thrown into the lake of fire.

Now whatever this lake of fire is, it certainly does not say that they will perish, but rather they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

As for the devil and the beast and the false prophet you're right, their fate is eternal torment in that lake. But for the humans the lake's meaning seems to be different. Rev 20:13 and 14 says that the dead of the sea and the underworld (I guess people burried on earth) are risen, judged, and (if not in the book of life) cast into the fire - and that's the second death. There's no word of their eternal torment. It's just either the same literal lake of fire; or the lake of fire stands as a symbol for judgement and condemnation, either way the humans' fate is different than that of the devil/ beast/ prophet. Rev 20: 10 comments on those three's fate that they will be tormented day and night forever in the lake, while Rev 20:14 comments on the condemned humans that the lake will be their second death. They'll just die again.

 

[JLB]

You asked, What about those who don't believe, where do they go? They perish, they do not survive and go to Hell to live forever in torment, because living forever in Hell is the opposite of perishing.

You ask, what does death mean? Death is the absence of life. The Bible says that the soul who sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:4) so thinking that it is only the body that dies and the soul survives is not Biblical. Also Jesus said "be afraid of the one who can destroy BOTH body and soul in Hell (Gehenna). So people claim that death is something they call "spiritual death", but there is no mention in the Bible of "spiritual death". This concept was made up in order to justify belief in eternal conscious torment in Hell. The Bible never uses the phrase "spiritual death", and the concept is never described in the Bible.

Believers are promised eternal life. The opposite of this is life that ends. Nonbelievers are never promised eternal life, not in Hell or anywhere else.

I'm just saying what the Bible says.

Do you think it is possible that there is more than justb the death of the body?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

This is what the scripture says,


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Timothy got that covered with his answer.
The word for "hell" in those verses was "gehenna", which was a real place everyone in Jerusalem (and probably most people in Israel) knew at that time, so Jesus took it as a metaphor. Gehenna was a burning garbage dump for Jerusalem's wastes and for the bodies of those that were considered unworthy of a real burial. It was in a valley and was thought to be desecrated and defiled because priests had worshipped Ba'al and sacrificed to him there. So it was a fitting place to use as a garbage dump.
The fire was burning day and night, all the time, so it may indeed stand for an eternal fire. There were probably worms, too, in those parts that weren't burning. But the people thrown in there didn't suffer forever. Most of them didn't suffer at all, because they were already dead. And those unfortunate to be alive when thrown into gehenna died from fire or smoke inhalation. That's cruel, but doesn't last forever. The fire may be eternal, but the torment for the individual in there is not.



As for the devil and the beast and the false prophet you're right, their fate is eternal torment in that lake. But for the humans the lake's meaning seems to be different. Rev 20:13 and 14 says that the dead of the sea and the underworld (I guess people burried on earth) are risen, judged, and (if not in the book of life) cast into the fire - and that's the second death. There's no word of their eternal torment. It's just either the same literal lake of fire; or the lake of fire stands as a symbol for judgement and condemnation, either way the humans' fate is different than that of the devil/ beast/ prophet. Rev 20: 10 comments on those three's fate that they will be tormented day and night forever in the lake, while Rev 20:14 comments on the condemned humans that the lake will be their second death. They'll just die again.

What are you saying, that the beast and the false prophet aren't human?
Then what are they?

 

[TimothyW]

Do you think it is possible that there is more than justb the death of the body?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

This is what the scripture says,


JLB

Scripture says that it is the second death. Don't you see that it is death and not eternal life in torment? The wages of sin is death, whosoever believes will not perish but will have eternal life, God is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, the soul who sins will die, etc etc etc. This is what the scripture says.

The story of eternal torture in Hell is not scriptural. We are promised eternal life. Why would the scriptures promise us eternal life, if everyone received eternal life? Words have meanings. Eternal life is life without death. Death is the end of life. Life in hell is not death. Would you think that death is eternal life in Hell if you didn't have a religious doctrine to defend? I'm just saying what the Bible says. The Bible describes the fate of the unrepentant wicked as being destroyed, perishing, consumed by fire, being no more and being turned to ash and blown away. If the person lives forever in Hell being tortured, these descriptions from the Bible do not fit. Don't you think that a lake that burns with fire is more than capable of completely burning up whatever is put into it? And if that were not convincing enough, John specifically says that it is the second death. Do you know why it is called the second death? Because this death occurs on judgment day, which is after the resurrection of the dead. The wicked were alive, then they died, then they will be resurrected for judgment, then they will die their second death. The second death is permanent.

 

[jeff77]

What about when the Bible talks about different degrees of punishment in Revelation 20:11-15? How could anyone be punished if they don't exist?

 

[JLB]

Scripture says that it is the second death. Don't you see that it is death and not eternal life in torment? The wages of sin is death, whosoever believes will not perish but will have eternal life, God is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna, the soul who sins will die, etc etc etc. This is what the scripture says.

The story of eternal torture in Hell is not scriptural. We are promised eternal life. Why would the scriptures promise us eternal life, if everyone received eternal life? Words have meanings. Eternal life is life without death. Death is the end of life. Life in hell is not death. Would you think that death is eternal life in Hell if you didn't have a religious doctrine to defend? I'm just saying what the Bible says. The Bible describes the fate of the unrepentant wicked as being destroyed, perishing, consumed by fire, being no more and being turned to ash and blown away. If the person lives forever in Hell being tortured, these descriptions from the Bible do not fit. Don't you think that a lake that burns with fire is more than capable of completely burning up whatever is put into it? And if that were not convincing enough, John specifically says that it is the second death. Do you know why it is called the second death? Because this death occurs on judgment day, which is after the resurrection of the dead. The wicked were alive, then they died, then they will be resurrected for judgment, then they will die their second death. The second death is permanent.

Sorry, but the scripture does not support your "theory".

Look at what the second death is.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The Second death is describes as - their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

The second death is burning in the lake of fire!

Who burns in the lake of fire? - the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars

 

[TimothyW]

What about when the Bible talks about different degrees of punishment in Revelation 20:11-15? How could anyone be punished if they don't exist?

The punishment is death. Their punishment is the loss of eternal life, only those who are in Christ inherit eternal life. The punishment is the second death.
Revelation 20:11-15 doesn't talk about different degrees of punishment:
Revelation 20:11-14, NIV
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[TimothyW]

Sorry, but the scripture does not support your "theory".

Look at what the second death is.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The Second death is describes as - their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

The second death is burning in the lake of fire!

Who burns in the lake of fire? - the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars

So you are claiming that this lake of fire doesn't burn up who is put into it? It is strange fire that doesn't kill whoever is burnt up in it?

I'm sorry, but the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. It tortures the language to claim that the second death is actually eternal life on fire.

Sorry, but the scriptures do not support your "theory". The Bible specifically says that the wages of sin is death, and never once says that the penalty for sin is an eternal life of torture.

You seem like you are getting upset about this. There is no reason for that. The passage you quoted specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, so there is no reason to believe that it is not death.

 

[JLB]

So you are claiming that this lake of fire doesn't burn up who is put into it? It is strange fire that doesn't kill whoever is burnt up in it?

I'm sorry, but the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. It tortures the language to claim that the second death is actually eternal life on fire.

Sorry, but the scriptures do not support your "theory". The Bible specifically says that the wages of sin is death, and never once says that the penalty for sin is an eternal life of torture.

You seem like you are getting upset about this. There is no reason for that. The passage you quoted specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, so there is no reason to believe that it is not death.

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

 

[JLB]

The passage you quoted specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, so there is no reason to believe that it is not death.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

 

[tim-from-pa]

I'm with you Timothy W. I got away from that ever burning in hell doctrine. I realized it was influenced from paganism and a lot of the NT words and names have the idea of their gods in it. The bible says that a person will perish. The whole idea of eternal hell rests with the immortal soul doctrine, another pagan doctrine to make it stand. Eternal life is contingent on grace, in which a person inherits eternal life who is otherwise mortal.

If you read the verses carefully that some use to "prove" an ever-existing hell, you will see that 1) it either does not say about the duration, or 2) the word "everlasting" when properly translated is talking about the final state could by the fire, i.e. everlasting fire = everlasting destruction or the action of the fire is everlasting --- no coming back, hence everlasting punishment (i.e. a state of one that's perished) not everlasting punishing.