Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[TimothyW]

Great point, Allen. This is the best argument against annihilationism. Here is a Biblical example of two PEOPLE who are burning forever in the place "reserved for the Devil and his angels". This obviously includes some humans. I haven't seen a rebuttal yet. Any takers?

So you are saying that even though the Bible specifically says that the wages of sin is death, I shouldn't believe that because ONE verse says that the devil (who is not everyone), the beast (who, by the way has seven heads and ten horns), and the false prophet (whoever that is) will be tormented day and night forever? For Pete's sake, this verse doesn't even say that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever and ever while they are dead. But I'm just supposed to ignore that, and assume that it means that even though it doesn't say that, and use that assumption to overturn all of the rest of the Bible? Have you ever read John 3:16? Whoever believes in him shall not perish but will have eternal life? Do I just ignore that? How about Jesus saying "Unless you repent, you will also perish"? Should I ignore what Jesus says too? I'll just believe that you have completely proven that the wages of sin is not death, but eternal torture in hell. Any takers? What a joke. The arguments for the doctrine of eternal torture are pitifully bad.

 

[TimothyW]

Annihilationism, which is better described as the Doctrine of Conditional Immortality has better scriptural support:

Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

 

[TimothyW]

Here are the rest of the 53 passages. There is so much proof for the Biblical position of Conditional Immortality, also known as Annihilationism that I can't post it all in one place:
The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.

48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.

50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.
There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the lost go to Hell when they die where they are tormented alive for all eternity.
Not one verse says it, and the Bible as a whole does not support Eternal Conscious Torment.

 

[JLB]

Here are the rest of the 53 passages. There is so much proof for the Biblical position of Conditional Immortality, also known as Annihilationism that I can't post it all in one place:
The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.

48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.

50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.
There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the lost go to Hell when they die where they are tormented alive for all eternity.
Not one verse says it, and the Bible as a whole does not support Eternal Conscious Torment.

Yes. They perish.

The way they perish is they are cast into the lake of fire.

This is called the second death.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15


JLB

 

[tagan]

would it be so surprising if there were different punishments for different people?
Do these verses of perishing, or burning eternally contradict each other? Maybe the sins are different = different punishment. and what about not eternal burning, but eternal separation from God? All 3 different punishments.
Just me rambling.

 

[dadof10]

So you are saying that even though the Bible specifically saynore the s that the wages of sin is death, I shouldn't believe that because ONE verse says that the devil (who is not everyone), the beast (who, by the way has seven heads and ten horns), and the false prophet (whoever that is) will be tormented day and night forever? For Pete's sake, this verse doesn't even say that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever and ever while they are dead. But I'm just supposed to ignore that, and assume that it means that even though it doesn't say that, and use that assumption to overturn all of the rest of the Bible? Have you ever read John 3:16? Whoever believes in him shall not perish but will have eternal life? Do I just ignore that? How about Jesus saying "Unless you repent, you will also perish"? Should I ignore what Jesus says too? I'll just believe that you have completely proven that the wages of sin is not death, but eternal torture in hell. Any takers? What a joke. The arguments for the doctrine of eternal torture are pitifully bad.

So, still no rebuttal, unless you are trying to make the case that the beast and the false prophet are not human. Is your exegetical method that when confronted with seemingly contradictory verses, you count the verses that agree and decide based on sheer volume? Do you just ignore the verses that "contradict" the majority, or do you at least attempt to reconcile them? The fact is that the Bible mentions two PEOPLE who are in the lake of fire, being forever tormented. How do you explain this in light of your view that this is impossible?

 

[JLB]

would it be so surprising if there were different punishments for different people?
Do these verses of perishing, or burning eternally contradict each other? Maybe the sins are different = different punishment. and what about not eternal burning, but eternal separation from God? All 3 different punishments.
Just me rambling.

Please use scripture for your thoughts.


Thanks.


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

So, still no rebuttal, unless you are trying to make the case that the beast and the false prophet are not human. Is your exegetical method that when confronted with seemingly contradictory verses, you count the verses that agree and decide based on sheer volume? Do you just ignore the verses that "contradict" the majority, or do you at least attempt to reconcile them? The fact is that the Bible mentions two PEOPLE who are in the lake of fire, being forever tormented. How do you explain this in light of your view that this is impossible?

Still no rebuttal? Did you miss where the passage you quoted didn't say that it referred to everyone but only 3 people? If they are people, which you haven't proven? Did you miss the mountain of scripture that I posted proving that the wages of sin really is death? Did you even read it? They are simply not people. The devil is not human, and the false prophet represents the false religious system.

Go ahead and believe that Tormentism has not been rebutted. The fact is that it has been.

 

[TimothyW]

Yes. They perish.

The way they perish is they are cast into the lake of fire.

This is called the second death.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15


JLB

Thank you. On this we agree. They perish. The lake of fire is the second death. Those who are cast into the lake of fire perish in the lake of fire, which is the second death. They die there and they do not live forever in the lake of fire being tortured alive by the flames. The verse that is used to "prove" eternal conscious torment actually proves the opposite, that the wicked perish and are no more just as the Bible says.

 

[JLB]

Thank you. On this we agree. They perish. The lake of fire is the second death. Those who are cast into the lake of fire perish in the lake of fire, which is the second death. They die there and they do not live forever in the lake of fire being tortured alive by the flames. The verse that is used to "prove" eternal conscious torment actually proves the opposite, that the wicked perish and are no more just as the Bible says.

No we don't agree. I quoted what the scripture says, and you keep thinking "perish" means the end of existemce.

Look at this with me.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12-14

As you can see Death and hell gave up the dead, and the dead were judged. Their existence had not ceased though they were dead. Their existence was in hell.

From hell they were brought before the Throne and judged according to the works. If their name was not found written in the Book of Life they were cast into the lake of fire along with Death and Hades, as well as the devil and the false prophet and the beast.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

The Devil will be tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever. The Devil is a spirit being, with no physical body.
The beast and false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever. The beast and false prophet were killed and their physical body died, however THEY THEMSELVES will be tormented in the lake of fire.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...he smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


The way these perish is the are tormented in the lake of fire... forever.

Unless you can produce a scripture that states specifically and clearly that a person who worships the beast and takes his mark IS NOT TORMENTED THE LAKE OF FIRE, then this doctrine will stand as being from God.

and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19

Perishing in the lake of fire means tormented day and night without rest.


JLB

 

[reba]

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Please guys this is not your personal battle ground . Going personal gets threads closed or warning issued. The forums should not be a game of king of the hill.

ChristianForums.net aspires to provide a place where Christians can come together in fellowship for encouragement, inspiration, and strength to help build each other up and grow in our walk of faith through honest and open discussion, study, reflection, and prayer.

 

[TimothyW]

No we don't agree. I quoted what the scripture says, and you keep thinking "perish" means the end of existemce.

Look at this with me.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12-14

As you can see Death and hell gave up the dead, and the dead were judged. Their existence had not ceased though they were dead. Their existence was in hell.

From hell they were brought before the Throne and judged according to the works. If their name was not found written in the Book of Life they were cast into the lake of fire along with Death and Hades, as well as the devil and the false prophet and the beast.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

The Devil will be tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever. The Devil is a spirit being, with no physical body.
The beast and false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever. The beast and false prophet were killed and their physical body died, however THEY THEMSELVES will be tormented in the lake of fire.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...he smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


The way these perish is the are tormented in the lake of fire... forever.

Unless you can produce a scripture that states specifically and clearly that a person who worships the beast and takes his mark IS NOT TORMENTED THE LAKE OF FIRE, then this doctrine will stand as being from God.

and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19

Perishing in the lake of fire means tormented day and night without rest.


JLB

You are forgetting that the reason the dead are able to stand before God for judgment is that they have been resurrected from death and brought to life in order to stand for judgment. As a result of the judgement people will either be awarded eternal life or sent to their second death. Perish still means to die, to be dead. Perish does not mean "to remain alive". Perish has never meant that.

 

[reba]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Please guys this is not your personal battle ground . Going personal gets threads closed or warning issued. The forums should not be a game of king of the hill.

ChristianForums.net aspires to provide a place where Christians can come together in fellowship for encouragement, inspiration, and strength to help build each other up and grow in our walk of faith through honest and open discussion, study, reflection, and prayer.

Because the above post posted at the same time....

 

[TimothyW]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Please guys this is not your personal battle ground . Going personal gets threads closed or warning issued. The forums should not be a game of king of the hill.

ChristianForums.net aspires to provide a place where Christians can come together in fellowship for encouragement, inspiration, and strength to help build each other up and grow in our walk of faith through honest and open discussion, study, reflection, and prayer.

Please don't close the thread because of the actions of one person. I pledge that I will not make personal attacks or threats, but I can't control the actions of other people.

I believe that this debate should be settled based on what the Bible says.
I've given the scriptural evidence for what I believe. I've been personally attacked for believing what the Bible says, but that will not cause me to stop believing what the Bible says. I've been told that my name will be removed from the book of life if I don't stop believing that the wages of sin really is death just as the Bible says, but that threat will not stop me from believing the Bible.

The threats are not necessary, I believe the Bible. If anyone thinks that I should believe that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever, all they need to do is point out the Bible verse that says that, and Bingo! I will believe it. It is that simple, IF THE BIBLE REALLY DOES SAY THAT.

 

[reba]

I agree Tim ... while knowing most folks dont argue with them self's.. Like a baseball umpire we mods are in the middle... Weather hell is on going or not is not unto salvation.

I would ask all Christians are you the same Christian, you were when firsts saved? Or do we grow and learn to be more like Him?

while i am here Welcome to CFnet .

 

[JLB]

Please don't close the thread because of the actions of one person. I pledge that I will not make personal attacks or threats, but I can't control the actions of other people.

I believe that this debate should be settled based on what the Bible says.
I've given the scriptural evidence for what I believe. I've been personally attacked for believing what the Bible says, but that will not cause me to stop believing what the Bible says. I've been told that my name will be removed from the book of life if I don't stop believing that the wages of sin really is death just as the Bible says, but that threat will not stop me from believing the Bible.

The threats are not necessary, I believe the Bible. If anyone thinks that I should believe that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever, all they need to do is point out the Bible verse that says that, and Bingo! I will believe it. It is that simple, IF THE BIBLE REALLY DOES SAY THAT.

Here is what the scripture concerning the lake of fire says -

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

The warning from the angel of God, concerning those who worship the beast or receive his mark.

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The result of those who refuse to heed the warning. They shall be tormented in the lake of fire.

...He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone


11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

those that are tormented in the lake of fire, have no rest day or night.


Please share what scriptures you have about the lake of fire.


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

Please share what scriptures you have about the lake of fire.


JLB

Revelation 20:14 specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death.


That is why I believe that the lake of fire is the second death and not eternal conscious torment.
This also agrees with the rest of the Bible which states that the wicked will perish, be destroyed, be burnt to ash, and will be no more. For the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture.

I believe what the Bible says. I've given plenty of scripture that backs up what I am saying.

 

[JLB]

Revelation 20:14 specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death.


That is why I believe that the lake of fire is the second death and not eternal conscious torment.
This also agrees with the rest of the Bible which states that the wicked will perish, be destroyed, be burnt to ash, and will be no more. For the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture.

I believe what the Bible says. I've given plenty of scripture that backs up what I am saying.

Please write out the scripture you refer to so we can discuss it.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 20:14 describes the second death as being cast into the lake of fire.

... anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So are we in agreement so far?

The second death is in fact being cast into the lake of fire.


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

Please write out the scripture you refer to so we can discuss it.

I did.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. (NIV)

This is why I believe that the lake of fire is the second death. I don't know why you believe that the lake of fire is eternal life being tormented by the flames. Since it says that lake of fire is the second death, I am not really seeing any reason to believe that the lake of fire is not the second death. It seems obvious to me. Do you not believe this simply because then you would need to give up your belief that the lake of fire is eternal torment? I find that when I am in disagreement with what the Bible says, it is better to believe the Bible.

The other scriptures which say that the wicked perish, are destroyed, are no more, and are burnt to ash are Psalm 37:20 (the wicked will perish), Psalm 37:10 (the wicked will be no more) Malachi 4 (the wicked will be reduced to ash), Matthew 7:13 (the way is wide that leads to destruction) 2 Thess 1:9 (they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction), Luke 13:3 (unless you repent you will likewise perish) and many many other scriptures. Too many to put in one post, as I've told you before. Which you completely ignored.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 20:14 describes the second death as being cast into the lake of fire.

... anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So are we in agreement so far?

I am in agreement with what the Bible says. "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." This is what Revelation 20:15 says. Revelation 20:15 DOES NOT SAY that they will remain alive forever in the lake of fire being tortured by the flames which somehow do not ever manage to burn up whoever is thrown into it.

The second death is in fact being cast into the lake of fire.

JLB

Being cast into the lake of fire is the second death, just as anyone would expect being tossed into a burning fiery lake of fire would be. That'll kill a person dead. And "dead" does not mean "alive forever".
Aside from this, Revelation 20:14 specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death. I don't know why you are resisting the belief that the lake of fire really is the second death. Especially since this lines up perfectly with Romans 6:23 which says "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal LIFE in Christ Jesus our lord." AND the lake of fire being the second death ALSO agrees with John 3:16 which says specifically that the only two options are to PERISH or have ETERNAL LIFE.

Why won't you stop arguing with me and just accept what the Bible says? Why is it so important to you to try to convince me that the Bible says that the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever when I can see plain as day that the Bible does not say that?

 

[JLB]

I did.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. (NIV)
[/quote/]

I agree with this scripture