[_ Old Earth _] How Old Is The Earth ?

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Once you redefine words to mean what you wish, then anything is possible.

Your statement applies both ways.

True, but my understanding matches that of ancient Christians, not modern YE.
'Maybe things were different in those days" is a weak reed to lean on, I think.

Who are you quoting?

The notion that because some things have changed, then other things must also have changed.

Start by admitting that Adam was created with the appearance of age.

Since that assumption is not supported by Scripture, there's no reason to believe it. And God is not deceptive.

How old was Adam when he was created? Clearly he was not born, don't you agree?

Of course he was born. He was created as we were. Was he the same species as we? I don't know, and it makes no difference.

 

[Lewis]

Okay let me interject here about the light sun issue' it is a little something that I found out years ago. The light spoken of in Genesis 1:3 and Genesis 1:14 are different and the Hebrew words to describe Genesis 1:3 and Genesis 1:14 are different. But below is a article that I found on this subject.
Lewis

Here is that whole section of Genesis 1 dealing with when light first came to the earth:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters .
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
What He is so kind to reveal to us is that He first created darkness and then "called light out of darkness" on this earth.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness : I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
For all who have been given eyes to see and ears to hear the word 'earth' is actually a revelation of how God is working with mankind who is "out of the ground...dust."

Jer 22:29 O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
So the wording of Genesis does not deny that God Himself is light first. He actually tells us that he created light:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
But we are also told that the light was not yet on "the face of the deep." 'The face of the deep' is a parable of the spiritual sin and spiritual darkness into which we are born, both physically in our mother's womb and spiritually outside the physical womb. Contrary to all that Babylon teaches, mankind was not shapen in righteousness then fell into sin. Rather Adam was deliberately "marred in the hand of the Potter."

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
It was all by God's design, and it is revealed to us in Genesis. "God created the heaven and the earth, but darkness was [first] on the face of the deep," and later "light shines out of darkness" upon the 'earth.'

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.
"The darkness and the light are both alike to thee." So verses one and two are from God's heavenly perspective while verse 1:14 is from mankind's earthly perspective. It is no longer 'the heavens' but "the firmament of the heavens." It is not just 'light,' it is now a "greater light and a lesser light." In scriptural terms even the night has a certain amount of light that is reflected from the sun. It is just a "lesser light" which he calls night.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
There are now "two great lights", and we begin to distinguish right from wrong. But the creation is not yet complete, and the son of God has not yet been completed. All of this is in preparation of the manifestation of the son of God:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
But this first Adam is but a type and a shadow of a later Adam, and all this talk of creation is the same. It "all happened and it is all written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made ["in the Potter's hand"] subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. This statement is true for all of God's Word. It is all for our adomonition, including the fact that the heavens and the earth were in place before God finished His work on this earth. It takes time for the light of heaven to penetrate the darkness that is on the face of the deep. When it finally does do so, there is still much work to be done as we become aware of a greater and a lesser light. ​

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[TOG]

Start by admitting that Adam was created with the appearance of age.

Since that assumption is not supported by Scripture, there's no reason to believe it. And God is not deceptive.

But that assumption is supported by Scripture. Immediately after Adam's creation, God spoke to him (implying that Adam already knew how to talk) and told him to tend the garden (implying that he had the physical maturity to do so).

The TOG​

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Your statement applies both ways. You've heard the saying, "Clean the inside first."




Who are you quoting? I quoted Peter who corrected the misconception. There is no "maybe" except in your hearing.

Start by admitting that Adam was created with the appearance of age. I know that admission will cost you something but think of it as a sacrifice to the truth. The implication that the earth also could have been created with the appearance of age minus the demand, "God therefore is the Deceiver," is not under discussion. We both know that allegation has no merit.

How old was Adam when he was created? Clearly he was not born, don't you agree?

Most Evolutionist Christians don't believe that Adam was an actual historical person, you're mixing a literal interpretation with a non-literal, though I don't want to speak for Barbarian.

 

[Lewis]

God created everything mature so that it would be fully functional. If He did not Adam would have been 1 day old on the day God rested.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian regarding the unscriptural assumption that Adam was created adult "with the appearance of age."
Since that assumption is not supported by Scripture, there's no reason to believe it. And God is not deceptive.

But that assumption is supported by Scripture. Immediately after Adam's creation, God spoke to him

"Immediately" being your addition to scripture to fit your desires.

Genesis 1:27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. [28] And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.

But...

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. [8] And the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed.

God goes out and does some more creation, and at a later time:

Genesis 2:15 And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it, and to keep it. [16] And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: [17] But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

And only later created Eve, so that rules out immediate discussion from either creation story. Remember, this is not literal history, but is allegorical. Trying to fit it into a literal history will always trip you up.

 

[TOG]

"Immediately" being your addition to scripture to fit your desires.

No more than your insertion of millions of years.

The TOG​

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian, noting that even a literal interpretation of Genesis would not have God "immediately" talking to Adam:
"Immediately" being your addition to scripture to fit your desires.

No more than your insertion of millions of years.

There was no such insertion. The Bible doesn't say how old the Earth is.

 

[TOG]

There was no such insertion. The Bible doesn't say how old the Earth is.

Neither is there any indication of time passing between the creation of Adam and Eve and God telling them to be fruitful and multiply. Saying that millions of years passed is just as much of an addition as saying it happened immediately.

The TOG​

 

[Barbarian]

Neither is there any indication of time passing between the creation of Adam and Eve and God telling them to be fruitful and multiply.

Genesis, as you saw, says God did some more things after He created Adam, and only then talked to him. If you take it literally, Eve came along after God spoke to Adam. But as most Christians know, it's not intended to be a literal history.

Saying that millions of years passed is just as much of an addition as saying it happened immediately.

Nope. Genesis doesn't say how long it took, so if you go with the evidence, it's perfectly consistent with scripture.

 

[TOG]

Nope. Genesis doesn't say how long it took, so if you go with the evidence, it's perfectly consistent with scripture.

Since it doesn't say, why is millions of years more consistent with Scripture than a much shorter time?

The TOG​

 

[jeff77]

I totally agree that the Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, but Adam and Eve not being literal? How can one see the story of Adam and Eve not being a literal story?

 

[Barbarian]

Since it doesn't say, why is millions of years more consistent with Scripture than a much shorter time?

Scripture is consistent with various time periods (but not six literal days, for reasons we've discussed earlier). However, the evidence from God's creation shows it to be billions of years old. So that's the only answer that's consistent with scripture and the observable facts.

 

[Barbarian]

I totally agree that the Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, but Adam and Eve not being literal?

There were two people from which all of us are descended. Adam and Eve were real people. They just weren't magically poofed into existence.

How can one see the story of Adam and Eve not being a literal story?

It's entirely possible for an allegory to be made about real people.

 

[Lewis]

http://www.missiontoamerica.com/genesis/six-thousand-years.html
Six Thousand Years:
The Bible says the world is about six thousand years old. How do we arrive at that number?

The Bible provides a complete genealogy from Adam to Jesus. You can go through the genealogies and add up the years. You'll get a total that is just over 4,000 years. Add the 2,000 years since the time of Jesus and you get just over 6,000 years since God created everything.

[ Learn more: How Old Is The Earth? ]

Is there anything wrong with figuring out the age of the earth this way? No. There is nothing to indicate the genealogies are incomplete. There is nothing to indicate God left anything out. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates in any way that the world is much older than 6,000 years old.

The Bible does tell us, however, that the fossils we find could not have been buried before God created Adam. The animals whose bones became fossilized had to have died after God created Adam. That means those fossils must be less than 6,000 years old. Here's why:

How do we get fossils?

The animal has to first die. That's rather obvious. When did death enter the world? Not until Genesis chapter three when Adam and Eve disobey God. So up until that time neither people nor animals died. So, based on the Bible, there could not be any bones to create fossils until after the fall.

Here's another Biblical reason why the fossils we find could not have been buried before God created Adam:

When we examine fossils, in some of them we see evidence of sickness, disease and cancer. There is evidence of violence and of one animal eating another. So there were some problems. Not everything was good.

Yet, at the end of day six of creation: "God saw all that He made and behold. It was very good." (Genesis 1:31 NASB)

God didn't call His creation just good. He called it very good. A world with sickness, disease, cancer and violence is not good. So, the fossilized bones we now find had to have come from animals that died after God created Adam, and after the fall.

 

[turnorburn]

Job 40: 1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,

2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.

22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.

23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.

24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

tob

Scientists like to think they know more about God's creation than He does that's why they continually seek proof.. proof replaces faith

 

[turnorburn]

Barbarian said

There were two people from which all of us are descended. Adam and Eve were real people. They just weren't magically poofed into existence.

Have you never seen God poof something into existence..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

I have seen God say that He didn't poof life into existence.

 

[Barbarian]

Scientists like to think they know more about God's creation than He does

No, and they don't want to. It is at the boundary of what we know and what we don't know, that science can be done. If we knew all, science would be dead. And that would end all the fun He left for us to have.

that's why they continually seek proof..

Never. Science isn't about proof. It's inductive, inferring the rules by looking at the particulars. We just get more and more information that either confirms our ideas, or overturns them for something more nearly correct.

proof replaces faith

Faith is proof. Science has to do with statistical likelihoods. Have some faith in faith. It's O.K. to be unscientific for many things.

 

[Sparkey]

Scripture is consistent with various time periods (but not six literal days, for reasons we've discussed earlier). However, the evidence from God's creation shows it to be billions of years old. So that's the only answer that's consistent with scripture and the observable facts.

I am guessing that the "reasons we've discussed earlier" you mention is the whole 4th Day Sun event, right?

Look before you leap. God created light and we are not talking about our modern definition of "morning" here. After light was made He caused light and darkness to be separate and distinct from each other. He set them apart and caused them to be divided into parts giving them twelve night (evening) periods and twelve day (morning) periods. This happened in Genesis 1:4 --> before Day 1.

And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[Gen 1:4 KJV]

Then (after the distinction) came the outcome: First Day. "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."


The 2nd Day (that began the following evening and was a 24-hour period) was almost a repeat of the first but instead of light and darkness being divided it was the "firmament" (Heb: raqiya`) and the "waters" (Heb: mayim) that were separated.

The fundamental mistake comes when we take our experience of day and night, of evening and morning, of twilight and dawn and apply it prior to its existence. These things, so familiar, did not exist prior to God making them. There was no twilight for instance. The division between light and darkness had not been made and we can only imagine what that means. It is utterly outside of our experience. The speculations advanced here about it have zero (none, nada, zip, zero, zilch) evidence for support. Compare that to the Word of God which is sufficient for all instruction.

So much for the 4th-day "Big Guns" and the "God is a Deceiver" game. Adam was created, not born. God breathed life into his nostril.