1 Jn 2:1-2 who does it apply to ?

[beloved57]

You took verse 19 out of context. Here is verse 20 as well;

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ (Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ (Messiah), as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.​

Please explain why Paul is telling people, who you say are already reconciled to God, to be reconciled to God.

As for unbelievers not having sins charged against them, the following all speak against that;

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Rom 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Col 2:11-13 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ (Messiah): Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

​

I have no problem with the scriptures you have quoted. Now its your responsibility to explain them since you brought them in to the discussion.

 

[beloved57]

Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ......
2Co 5:18 And the all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and did give to us [the Apostles] the ministration of the reconciliation,[the Gospel]

2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,[the Gospel]
Joh_12:32 and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'

2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech [call near], in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'
Act_17:30 the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, [repent]

Rom 5:10.....much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

jocor pointed out 2 Corinthians 5:20 to you. And you ignored it.
Jesus Himself said, in John 12:32, that He would draw all men to Himself.

What do these verses say to you? It says to me that even though God reconciled Himself to the world through the death of His Son, all men must obey God's command to repent [Acts 17:30] and be reconciled to God [2 Co 5:20].

Accepting God's gift of salvation by grace, through faith, is not a self-righteous work. It could not be done without Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, drawing men unto Himself. But we see that we must accept it [be reconciled the God].

I could forgive someone who has harmed me, thus reconciling myself to them. But they could stand far off and not accept my forgiveness, (which is a self-righteous act), thus keeping them from reconciling themselves to me. So instead of 'drawing near' we would stay afar off from one another, never mending the broken relationship.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10. They didn't accept Christ or anything, they were enemies when they were reconciled.

 

[Deborah13]

Those sinners Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, but that doesn't apply to all mankind without exception since many are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36 !

You haven't presented any new evidence, so can I assume that you have rested your case?

 

[Malachi]

So for anyone to appeal to 1 Jn 2:1-2 as a proof text to prove that Christ died for all mankind [individually] without exception, they are falsifying scripture, being a false witness, because for one 1 Jn 2:2 doesnt say that, and it cant even begin to mean that !

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9).

 

[Deborah13]

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9).

Excellent.

 

[jocor]

So sinners Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10.

This may come down to a translation problem. Here is the Greek from the Interlinear Greek NT (the Greek word is followed by Strong's number and the English translation:

Rom 5:10 ειG1487 IF, γαρG1063 FOR εχθροιG2190 ENEMIES οντεςG5607 [G5752] BEING κατηλλαγημενG2644 [G5648] WE WERE RECONCILED τωG3588 TO θεωG2316 GOD διαG1223 THROUGH τουG3588 THE θανατουG2288 DEATH τουG3588 OF υιουG5207 HIS αυτουG846 SON, πολλωG4183 MUCH μαλλονG3123 MORE καταλλαγεντεςG2644 [G5651] HAVING BEEN RECONCILED σωθησομεθαG4982 [G5701] WE SHALL BE SAVED ενG1722 τηG3588 BY ζωηG2222 LIFE. αυτουG846 HIS​

Translating each word in English reads;

If for enemies being we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more having been reconciled we shall be saved by life his.
​

Compare that to the KJV, YLT and NASB:

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. KJV

for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.YLT

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.NASB​

I don't see the words "while" or "when" in the Greek text. In other words, the Greek does not say the reconciliation took place while we were enemies. It simply says we were enemies. We were Yeshua's enemies right up until the time we received him as Savior and received the reconciliation his death provided. We were dead in our sins right up until we received Yeshua as Savior and had our hearts circumcised by him (Col 2:11-13).

 

[jocor]

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9).

Great verse! Here are two more:

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.​

 

[beloved57]

You haven't presented any new evidence, so can I assume that you have rested your case?

Don't need no new evidence, Rom 5:10 is enough.

 

[beloved57]

Great verse! Here are two more:

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.​

I have no problem with those verses. It is up to you guys to explain them since you all brought them to the discussion.

 

[beloved57]

This may come down to a translation problem. Here is the Greek from the Interlinear Greek NT (the Greek word is followed by Strong's number and the English translation:

Rom 5:10 ειG1487 IF, γαρG1063 FOR εχθροιG2190 ENEMIES οντεςG5607 [G5752] BEING κατηλλαγημενG2644 [G5648] WE WERE RECONCILED τωG3588 TO θεωG2316 GOD διαG1223 THROUGH τουG3588 THE θανατουG2288 DEATH τουG3588 OF υιουG5207 HIS αυτουG846 SON, πολλωG4183 MUCH μαλλονG3123 MORE καταλλαγεντεςG2644 [G5651] HAVING BEEN RECONCILED σωθησομεθαG4982 [G5701] WE SHALL BE SAVED ενG1722 τηG3588 BY ζωηG2222 LIFE. αυτουG846 HIS​

Translating each word in English reads;

If for enemies being we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more having been reconciled we shall be saved by life his.
​

Compare that to the KJV, YLT and NASB:

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. KJV

for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.YLT

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.NASB​

I don't see the words "while" or "when" in the Greek text. In other words, the Greek does not say the reconciliation took place while we were enemies. It simply says we were enemies. We were Yeshua's enemies right up until the time we received him as Savior and received the reconciliation his death provided. We were dead in our sins right up until we received Yeshua as Savior and had our hearts circumcised by him (Col 2:11-13).

I don't see any problem. Those Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies by Christ death Rom 5;10. And that doesn't apply to all mankind without exception since many are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36!

 

[beloved57]

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9).

That verse does not say that Christ died for all mankind without exception.

 

[reba]

You explained only your idea... How about an answer to the question...

Now does this passage specifically state that Christ did not die for every single individual without exception in the whole entire world ?

The word exception is not in the verse . Therefor the questions does not make sense.
The Scripture simply says 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Then it is impudent upon you to provide the scripture that says that He did not mean the whole world like He says because your word exception means nothing.

From your own post #13

No it does not specifically say that. Does it specifically say that Christ died for all without exception?

 

[turnorburn]

It appears to me by the words of these witnesses this matter should be closed..

II Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

 

[beloved57]

The word exception is not in the verse . Therefor the questions does not make sense.
The Scripture simply says 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Then it is impudent upon you to provide the scripture that says that He did not mean the whole world like He says because your word exception means nothing.

From your own post #13

That's right, so if it doesn't specifically say without exception then it doesn't specifically teach that Christ died for all without exception.

 

[beloved57]

When Christ is said to be our propitiation, it means that for us He has appeased the wrath of God on our behalf, hence we cannot be of them it is written of this Jn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It would be a contradiction to be one of those the wrath of God abideth on, and at the same time belong to the world of 1 Jn 2:2 !

 

[reba]

That's right, so if it doesn't specifically say without exception then it doesn't specifically teach that Christ died for all without exception.

I disagree completely that teaching is adding words to the Scripture that are not God's. The Scripture says the sins of the 'whole world' and you are saying "not so"
Please post the specific Scripture that says He didn't die for the sins of the 'whole world' .

 

[Radagast]

Now does this passage specifically state that Christ died for every single individual without exception in the whole entire world ? No it doesnt.

I agree with you, as it happens, although I thought your argument was somewhat poorly worded. And if you're going to preach a sermon, please don't phrase it so it looks like a question.

Here, by the way, is John Calvin on the passage:

"Here a question may be raised, how have the sins of the whole world been expiated? I pass by the dotages of the fanatics, who under this pretense extend salvation to all the reprobate, and therefore to Satan himself. Such a monstrous thing deserves no refutation. They who seek to avoid this absurdity, have said that Christ suffered sufficiently for the whole world, but efficiently only for the elect. This solution has commonly prevailed in the schools. Though then I allow that what has been said is true, yet I deny that it is suitable to this passage; for the design of John was no other than to make this benefit common to the whole Church. Then under the word all or whole, he does not include the reprobate, but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world. For then is really made evident, as it is meet, the grace of Christ, when it is declared to be the only true salvation of the world."

Calvin is following Augustine here, I think:

"What is this, brethren? Certainly we have found it in the fields of the woods, we have found the Church in all nations. Behold, Christ is the propitiation for our sins; not ours only, but also the sins of the whole world. Behold, you have the Church throughout the whole world; do not follow false justifiers who in truth are cutters off. Be in that mountain which has filled the whole earth: because Christ is the propitiation for our sins; not only ours, but also the sins of the whole world, which He has bought with His blood."

No region of the world, and no nation, or tribe, or language-group, will be left untouched by Christ's salvation, but it certainly does not follow that each and every human being will be saved (see Mark 16:16 and John 3:18).

 

[jocor]

I have no problem with those verses. It is up to you guys to explain them since you all brought them to the discussion.

"Died for all" does not mean "died for all except ...". Even the worst sinner in the world can repent and receive Yeshua's sacrifice/death/shed blood appropriated to him. Upon receiving Yeshua as Savior, he comes out from under Yahweh's wrath and receives reconciliation.

If I understand you correctly, you believe all unbelievers are the exception. It is the minority that are considered an "exception", not the majority. The believers are in the minority since "the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Mt 7:14 NASB). If anyone is an exception, it would be believers, but they are not the exception either. There are NO exceptions. Messiah's death was for ALL, but not all will benefit from it.

 

[jocor]

I don't see any problem. Those Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies by Christ death Rom 5;10. And that doesn't apply to all mankind without exception since many are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36!

I just showed you that "while" is not in the Greek, yet you continue to mislead by using the unscriptural phrase "while they were enemies". The Greek does not provide a time element for when the reconciliation took place. It simply teaches that we went from enemies to reconciled.

 

[jocor]

I agree with you, as it happens, although I thought your argument was poorly worded. And if you're going to preach a sermon, please don't phrase it so it looks like a question.

Here, by the way, is John Calvin on the passage:

"Here a question may be raised, how have the sins of the whole world been expiated? I pass by the dotages of the fanatics, who under this pretense extend salvation to all the reprobate, and therefore to Satan himself. Such a monstrous thing deserves no refutation. They who seek to avoid this absurdity, have said that Christ suffered sufficiently for the whole world, but efficiently only for the elect. This solution has commonly prevailed in the schools. Though then I allow that what has been said is true, yet I deny that it is suitable to this passage; for the design of John was no other than to make this benefit common to the whole Church. Then under the word all or whole, he does not include the reprobate, but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world. For then is really made evident, as it is meet, the grace of Christ, when it is declared to be the only true salvation of the world."

Calvin is wrong. He starts out with a false premise by bringing Satan into the discussion. Satan is not a "man" whom Yeshua died for. Yeshua died for "every man" (Hebrews 2:9). Then he equates the "whole world" with the "whole Church". Spare me.