1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[Anaphora]

If one are still committing sin, one is not in Christ...as there is no sin in Christ.
If one is still committing sin, they are walking in the "flesh", and not in the Spirit.

I already documented difference between Christian sinners and habitual sinners.

Christian people sin daily in the flesh and have to repent.

Epistle John. 1:9. If we confess our sins,He is just to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1:10 . If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Reprobates follow satan. They wont repent and they listen to false preachers. The truth hurts thier ears.
ADOKIMOS in Greek means = reject, cast away. Reprobates.
1 Corinthians 9:27
Titus 1:16
Hebrews chapter 6:8
Describes a reprobates on judgement day, God himself will reject them. They might claim to be Christian pejople, but thier actions speak clearly.

Romans chapter 1:21-23. Reprobates
Self worship
Self gratification
Idols /Rebellion
Hate the truth
Listening to fake shepherds
Dead works
Cross reference, 1 Corinthians chapter 13:5.
Those who love and serve God. They repent.
Have good works
Produce fruit for God
Are disciplined
Obedience to God.
Study sound doctrine

The difference between children of darkness and children of light.

I'm not going to waste any more time on this. I moved on to other threads.
Take care.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I already documented difference between Christian sinners and habitual sinners.

I think it is a mistake to call unrepentant folks, who are not in Christ, who are still walking in the "flesh", Christians

Christian people sin daily in the flesh and have to repent.

Epistle John. 1:9. If we confess our sins,He is just to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1:10 . If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Addressing those in the darkness-sin.
Sinners can't say they that they have no sin.
The folks from your 1 John 1:9 verse, who actually repent of sin receive forgiveness, but further sin just makes their repentance from sin a lie to God.

Reprobates follow satan. They wont repent and they listen to false preachers. The truth hurts thier ears.
ADOKIMOS in Greek means = reject, cast away. Reprobates.
1 Corinthians 9:27
Titus 1:16
Hebrews chapter 6:8
Describes a reprobates on judgement day, God himself will reject them. They might claim to be Christian pejople, but thier actions speak clearly.

Romans chapter 1:21-23. Reprobates
Self worship
Self gratification
Idols /Rebellion
Hate the truth
Listening to fake shepherds
Dead works
Cross reference, 1 Corinthians chapter 13:5.
Those who love and serve God. They repent.
Have good works
Produce fruit for God
Are disciplined
Obedience to God.
Study sound doctrine

The difference between children of darkness and children of light.

I'm not going to waste any more time on this. I moved on to other threads.
Take care.

 

[RBDERRICK]

If people aren’t born with a sinful nature, where does a person’s “own lust” come from?

Same place as Lucifer's: From ourselves.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

Do you not understand the reading, which calls lust 'our own', and not God's? If we are created with it, then Christ is the creator of our lust, and is His own created in us. Even as our souls and bodies are not our own alone, but God's by creation.

Christ creates all things good, especially angels and men.

The old accusation of Satan and unrepentant sinners against God, is that it's God's fault for creating them that way.

"It's not my fault. God made me this way..."

James rebukes this lie:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The whole point of truth here, is that angels and men can rebel and sin against God, and if we do, then it is our own lust enticing us, not God tempting us from the womb.

Some Christians believe we are born with sin nature from, and don't consider they are accusing Christ of making us sinners on earth. I used to be one. That in itself is not destructive error, since I also knew that repenting of sinning for Jesus' sake, results in removing all lust and sin from the heart and life.

However, the error becomes destructive to the self-justifiers, that begin to blame their created sin nature on continued sinning. It's the unrepentant Christian lie of our souls not being at fault and condemned, but is only the 'sin nature' acting out again. Some even descend into the childishly of actually blaming their body for sinning.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Sinful believer" is an oxymoron.

True, but only In the context of sons obeying the Lord. In the Bible there is no believing in the Lord without obeying Him.

However, the Bible also recognizes dead faith, where one does believe like the devils, that there is one true God, but they do not repent to obey Him.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

And so there are both unrepentant beleivers and unbelievers alike.

If you beleive that God is going to destroy the wicked on the last day, you will quit committing sin.

Ought to certainly, but no guarrantee we will. Afterall, Adam knew the truth, but did not do it, nor did he repent.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was being deceived in the transgression.

That's why he had to be driven out of the garden in the end. He not only transgressed, but he also did not repented.

When I first believed the truth of repenting from Jesus' sake, I didn't. I remained slave to my sinning. I did however pray for God's mercy to grant me repentance, and with His longsuffering He has done so by His great grace.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Hopeful 2]

True, but only In the context of sons obeying the Lord. In the Bible there is no believing in the Lord without obeying Him.

OK.

However, the Bible also recognizes dead faith, where one does believe like the devils, that there is one true God, but they do not repent to obey Him.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
And so there are both unrepentant beleivers and unbelievers alike.

If they believed Him, they would cower in some corner.

Ought to certainly, but no guarrantee we will. Afterall, Adam knew the truth, but did not do it, nor did he repent.

Are you not thankful that our rebirth is from God's seed and not Adam's ?

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was being deceived in the transgression.
That's why he had to be driven out of the garden in the end. He not only transgressed, but he also did not repented.

He got what was promised.

When I first believed the truth of repenting from Jesus' sake, I didn't. I remained slave to my sinning. I did however pray for God's mercy to grant me repentance, and with His longsuffering He has done so by His great grace.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

How long have you been a non-sinner ?

 

[RBDERRICK]

So, would you agree

I know this sounds mundane or even boorish, but it's not what we say or agree with, but what God says, and whether we agree with Him or not.

I gave the Bible answer to what a sinner is: ungodly, unrighteous, tresspassing transgressor against God.

This shows that any effort to downgrade sin and sinners, as being something less than a sinning enemy of God by sinful works.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by bad works, yet now hath he reconciled.

that a sinner someone whose life is characterized by willful, unrepentant sin?

Now you are asking about being a sinner, as defined by frequency, and not just the act.

While there is certainly a difference between a current act and habitual deeds, there is no difference in the judgment of God between the act and the frquency.

Trying to define committing sin to a 'commitment' to sin, is trying to say someone committing the act, is somehow not 'committed' to it.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

It's the same as trying to judge being a friend or enemy of God, based on frequency, not the act.

Both sense and the judgment of God knows, that the one committing adultery, theft, murder, lying slander, etc... is at the time an adulterer, thief, murderer, and slanderer.

Rioteous living can certainly ruin the life, but committing the act surely kills the soul with death toward the Spirit of life.

For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The soul that is sinning, it shall die.

But he that is sinning against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commits iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning.

Whosoever is born of God is not committing sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot be sinning, because he is born of God.

Those who are sinning against God are sinners against God and dead to God. Past and future don't matter at the time, but only the act of enmity with God.

The effort to stand on past righteousness, and discount current sinning, is false. As well as saying believers only sinning from 'time to time', are still alive to God all the time.

One man while sinning against God in spirit by lust, and works of the flesh, is alive to God. There are no sin 'throw-offs' with the living God and Judge of all the earth.

Of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which are doing such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

God is a God of the present, and He judges by what we are doing now, not by yesterday which is past, nor by tomorrow which may not come.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and are doing the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

There is no repspect of persons with God in His righteous judgment against disobeying Him. This excludes either faith or freuqency exonerating the one doing the act.

...Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which are doing such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What you initially said was:

“1 John 1 is not a mandate from God for those walking in the light, to also be sinners.”

That is very different from:

“1 John 1 is declaring we must all say we have sin in our lives.”

I see. But since we are supposed to be speaking for God, then preaching it ought mean God says so.

If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:

The title rebukes anyone teach such a thing, not God. Must and mandate are the same thing in practice.

Obviously God is not telling believers to be sinners; that is absurd.

To honest believers, not to dishonest self-justifiers. My arguments are to expose the lies by showing their absurd conclusions. Reductio ad absurdum, reduction to absurdity.

If the natural unsaid conclusion is absurd, then so the argument supplying it must be equally absurd.

So let's walk through to the conclusion: Some say 1 John 1 declares no person on earth (especially the believers), must ever think nor say we have no sin in life. Therefore, no believer (other than Jesus) can ever rightly say we are not sinning in life.

Therefore, we must always say we are sinning in life, or be found liars saying we have no sin.

Conlcusion: In order not be liars, we must sin in life, in order to rightly say we have sin. It becomes a commandment to sin, so as not to lie by saying we have no sin in life.

1 John 1 is saying no such thing, but only rebuking the obvious hypocrites, that are saying they have no sin in life, while still sinning.

The serpent is subtle, and makes the simple confusing, by turning the truth of God into a lie of unrepented sinful man.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

As you say, it is utterly absurd to ever suggest the Lord Jesus Christ is somehow commanding His own people to sin. However, that would be the case, if we are to ensure we can rightly say we have sin in life.

If we're not sinning, how can we rightly say we have sin?

But, what he is saying is that believers must continually confess their sins and he will forgive us and cleanse us.

True. If we're sinning. And if we are not sinning, what do we confess?

Confessing to sin, that we have not committed, is as the lie of saying we have not sinned, when we did.

The lie of the devil with 1 John 1 sounds confusing, but it is obvious. The devil wants every person on earth, especially beleivers, to always be sinners, and to alway say they have sin in life. The devil never wants any repented believer in Christ Jesus, to ever say we are saints, and not sinning.

How can any saint in Christ Jesus have sin, when in Him there is no sin?

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

It's a simple test: What is the response when any Christian believer ever says we are now walking with Jesus as he walked, and still being tempted yet without sinning?

Do we say "Praise the Lord, Jesus wins again! And has made another overcomer in life as He is!" Or, "You're a liar, because we all still sin! The Bible says we all still have sin!!"

What say you? I have repented of my sinning for Jesus' sake, and I am not sinning with Him today.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your kind of believer certainly does by your own boasting admission.

You minister sin to all believers like you, and the Bible ministers sin to no one.



It isn't, and has nothing to do with 1 John 1 rebuking them that justify their continued sinning.

Instead of acknowledging the truth and repenting, an old lie against the law of the Lord is brought in to justify continued unrepentance.

The Lord has never commanded nor taught God's eternal perfection on earth.

Sinning is not imperfection, and imperfection is not sinning. Nor is sinning against God a 'mistake' on earth, but a wilfull act of disobedience to God's word.

Sinning is doing unrighteous works of the flesh from a corrupt heart of lust.



He does. Sin not. Same as Jesus. Go and sin no more.

God's commanded resolution for continued hardened sinning, is to repent of the sinning and trespassing for Jesus' sake. It's not by the unrepentant counting their works of iniquity as just being 'imperfect'.

1 John 1 is against self-justified unrepented sinning. 1 John 2 is for them that do not justify any sinning, but repent for Jesus' sake.

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[RBDERRICK]

There is a clear command to believers,

True. It is a lie for anyone committing a work of darkness, to say they have no sin and are walking in the light with Jesus Christ.

but it clearly is not to sin.

Even truer. God never commands any of His sons and children of the light, to say they have sin in life, much less to commit sin

Where, exactly, does this passage reject “any doctrine of believers, that says they are saved by their own faith alone, and need not be justified by their work”?

It's the reason why they reject any believer, that says they are not sinning in Christ Jesus.

If that's so, then their self-justifying doctrine fails.

Again, you need to be more precise in your wording. What do you mean by “sinful” and “sinful believers (or Christians)”?

Being sinful is being a sinner by sinning. Anyone sinning, is sinful.

As James says, there are believers in one God, but so do the devils believe the same. But they are still sinning.

Are you a believer? Are you sinning? Are you sinful when sinning?

This, too, depends on what you mean by “sin in their lives.”

Sinning in life.

I don’t understand these two points.

Once again, you talk as if you've never heard any Christian teaching they are in the light now by faith alone, even when they are still sinning?

And, that they are no more condemned while sinning?

If you are doing a work of the flesh, are you sinning? Are you judged and condemned as others doing the same thing?

And, yet:



The consistent message throughout the NT is that we are saved by grace through faith, not by works.

This is also a consistent message of unrepented believers, who say they are saved by grace through faith alone, apart from works.

That's opposite of the Bible, which says no man is saved by their own faith alone. The Bible only forbids being saved and jusified by our own works without Christ.

As v. 10 shows, we are created for good works. Good works are evidence of justification; they don’t justify us.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

And not by our works only are we justified or condemned, but also by our words.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

God judges our works, therefore, it is not possible to justify or condemn any man apart from our works.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

 

[RBDERRICK]

You are correct. John does rebuke unrepentant sinners. We agree.

Then you are rebuked.

1 John can, and does, serve another purpose.

To rebuke unrepented believers, that are still condemned with unbelieving sinners.

And specifically sinful belivers that say they are in the light, while walking in darkness.

And also say they have no sin condemned by God.

It is written to believers who still sin from time to time.

Correct. unrepented believers that still walk in darkness, and not in the light with Jesus.

And that is all of us.

This personal accusation against all believers is false. There is no safety in numbers, especially when made up to justify oneself.

John includes himself as a repentant sinner.

Sinful believers that seek to justify their sinning, do. Along with their other apostle and bad example of being a double hearted worst of sinners.

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

John speaks of himself walking in the light while writing the words of Christ.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

He includes himself in the warning of the Lord against hypocrisy of naming Christ and walking in darkness. The warning also includes the delusional belief, that we are not condemned with the world, if we are ever walking with the world in darkness.

So did Paul in his letters.

That other sinful apostle for self-justifying sinners to follow into more sinning.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

That is what makes the Christian life possible for me.

Christian life and religion is not necessarily Christians walking with Jesus with His pure religion.

Same for Jews living in the Jews religion, that rejects Jesus as Lord and God, much less walking with Him.

John and Paul showed me, with their own words, they were sinners saved by grace, through faith in Jesus.

The only sinners saved by grace through faith, are repented saints saved by grace from sinning, through the faith of God.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Sinners saved by grace while sinning, is through their own faith and grace.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

That faith of Jesus that saves us from sinning, is not our own from ourselves, but it is the gift of God to them that repent of their sinning for Jesus's sake.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Just like me.

If anyone is following a sinful apostle into the worst of sinning, then they are become just like him.

If anyone makes an apostle to be the worst of sinners, then their apostle is made just like them.

and still make mistakes.

Downgrading sin against God to a mistake, is the dumbing down of the gospel of God into a sinful relgion.

I repent every day before I rest. I want to keep my relationship with God as pure as I can.

Saying we're sorry at the end of every sinful day for the day's sinning, is not repenting of the sinning.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

God's repentance is of thoughts and works, not just thoughts alone.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

The sorriness of the world for doing evil, without repenting of the evil, still works the death of sinning.

Believers sin.

Those who believe in sinning, sin. It's their faith.

I forgive you.

I don't need any forgiveness for not sinning, neither ask for it.

I have not repented of doing righteousness.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of:

I am not going to pick apart your words.

Those who have no words to correct, can either agree and do them, or ignore them and do their own thing anyway.

You may pick mine apart all you like.

I only rebuke words corrupting the words of God, by the words of God.

Isn't it interesting that when we forgive others we forgive ourselves?

Human social psychology is not the truth of God.

God does not forgive Himself, if He forgives others. Not do the righteous and innocent, that have done no

 

[RBDERRICK]

If one are still committing sin, one is not in Christ...as there is no sin in Christ.
If one is still committing sin, they are walking in the "flesh", and not in the Spirit.

It is necessary to suspend the Lord's common reasoning among men, in order to defy 1 John 1, and still say we are in the light while walking in darkness.

Christ lightens every man and woman coming into the world with understanding. That light must be perverted in order to not understand common truth.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is necessary to suspend the Lord's common reasoning among men, in order to defy 1 John 1, and still say we are in the light while walking in darkness.

Unfortunately, most readers are trying to use scripture to justify their sins.
By separating 1 John 1:8 from the context of the rest of 1 John, they have a false biblical reason not to repent of sin.
The same darkened minds uses the same tactics on Romans 7, to accuse Paul of sin.

Christ lightens every man and woman coming into the world with understanding. That light must be perverted in order to not understand common truth.

I'ld call that light a conscience.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Yep.

 

[RBDERRICK]

John is speaking to me.
How do I know?
I believe, and I sin.
That is not boastful.
I am ashamed to admit it.
I try to be perfect as Jesus commanded us.
But I cannot do it.
That is my honesty.
Do you believe John was boasting about his sin?
Or was he being honest?

1John 2:1 reinforces Jesus' command.
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. . . . "

What are the very next words in the verse.
" . . . And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

Why did John write this?
Is he boasting?
Is he"any man?"
1 John is written to believers.
Are you a believer?
I am.
I am "any man."
Is it written to you and me?
I know it's written to me.
The grace of God endures with me.
I live in, and because of, His grace.
I didn't stop needing it after I received Jesus.
I confess my sins that I might be cleansed from all unrighteousness.
Paul starts his letters by asking for grace and peace to the believers to whom he is writing.
Why do believers need grace?
Believers sin.
I hope you understand what I am saying.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[RBDERRICK]

If 1John is written to believers, who is the "we" in verse 8?

1 John 1 is written to all believers. However, not all believers do believe in doing the same thing.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

As with the children of Israel, not all Israelites were of the Israel of God. And so today, not all believers are of the faith of Jesus Christ.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I believe, and I sin.

And so, we see believing in sinning. Which is the clear division between all believers spoken of in 1 John 1.

As in James 2, the believers in one God are divided between believers with faith to do His righteousness, and the believers with faith to do their own unrighteousness.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The rebuke of 1 John 1 is not just to believers that sin, but is more specifically to the believers that have faith to sin and be in the light with Jesus Christ.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For

Not all believers are sinning, nor are all believers that sin, believe they can sin and have fellowship with Jesus Christ in the light. Only the deceitful believers have faith to be in the light of Christ, while walking in darkness.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

The faith of believers in sinning is dead to God, because their faith is not to do His righteousness.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that is doing righteousness is born of him.

 

[Free]

I know this sounds mundane or even boorish, but it's not what we say or agree with, but what God says, and whether we agree with Him or not.

I agree, but that just begs the question, right? In order to agree with God, one must be certain they understand what God actually has said. Given that no book of the Bible was written in English, shouldn’t one have to study what was written in the original languages in order to have a full or better understanding?

I gave the Bible answer to what a sinner is: ungodly, unrighteous, tresspassing transgressor against God.

You have given an answer, yes, but what does “sinner” mean in the context of 1 John 1?

This shows that any effort to downgrade sin and sinners, as being something less than a sinning enemy of God by sinful works.

You’re begging the question.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by bad works, yet now hath he reconciled.

Please start posting the exact references to the verses you quote as a courtesy to those with whom you are in discussion, so they don’t have to find other ways of looking for them. Besides, it is standard theological practice.

Now you are asking about being a sinner, as defined by frequency, and not just the act.

Again, how is “sinner” defined in 1 John 1?

While there is certainly a difference between a current act and habitual deeds, there is no difference in the judgment of God between the act and the frquency.

Are you sure? Is the act the actual sin?

Trying to define committing sin to a 'commitment' to sin, is trying to say someone committing the act, is somehow not 'committed' to it.

I don’t understand what you’re saying here.

It's the same as trying to judge being a friend or enemy of God, based on frequency, not the act.

What is?

Both sense and the judgment of God knows, that the one committing adultery, theft, murder, lying slander, etc... is at the time an adulterer, thief, murderer, and slanderer.

I don’t understand what you’re saying here.

Rioteous living can certainly ruin the life, but committing the act surely kills the soul with death toward the Spirit of life.

What act? Is it just one act that is needed?

Those who are sinning against God are sinners against God and dead to God. Past and future don't matter at the time, but only the act of enmity with God.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

The effort to stand on past righteousness, and discount current sinning, is false.

Who is discounting current sin? What do you even mean by that?

As well as saying believers only sinning from 'time to time', are still alive to God all the time.

But what does John actually say in 1 John?

One man while sinning against God in spirit by lust, and works of the flesh, is alive to God. There are no sin 'throw-offs' with the living God and Judge of all the earth.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

God is a God of the present, and He judges by what we are doing now, not by yesterday which is past, nor by tomorrow which may not come.

Do you have any Scripture to support that?

There is no repspect of persons with God in His righteous judgment against disobeying Him. This excludes either faith or freuqency exonerating the one doing the act.

Where is that stated in Scripture?

 

[Free]

I see. But since we are supposed to be speaking for God, then preaching it ought mean God says so.

Right. So shouldn't one be very sure they know what God said and just not think they know?

The title rebukes anyone teach such a thing, not God.

What title? Teaching what? What do you mean "not God"?

Must and mandate are the same thing in practice.

Sure, but, again, what you said and what John says are two different things.

What you initially said was:

“1 John 1 is not a mandate from God for those walking in the light, to also be sinners.”

That is very different from:

“1 John 1 is declaring we must all say we have sin in our lives.”

To honest believers, not to dishonest self-justifiers. My arguments are to expose the lies by showing their absurd conclusions. Reductio ad absurdum, reduction to absurdity.

If the natural unsaid conclusion is absurd, then so the argument supplying it must be equally absurd.

I agree, but it's your argument that is supplying it.

So let's walk through to the conclusion: Some say 1 John 1 declares no person on earth (especially the believers), must ever think nor say we have no sin in life. Therefore, no believer (other than Jesus) can ever rightly say we are not sinning in life.

Therefore, we must always say we are sinning in life, or be found liars saying we have no sin.

Conlcusion: In order not be liars, we must sin in life, in order to rightly say we have sin. It becomes a commandment to sin, so as not to lie by saying we have no sin in life.

Your conclusion doesn't follow. John states the simple and obvious fact that everyone has sin in their life, but in no way does that become a command to sin. The command is to not sin, but if and when a believer does sin, to confess it and God will forgive and cleanse.

1 John 1 is saying no such thing, but only rebuking the obvious hypocrites, that are saying they have no sin in life, while still sinning.

He is speaking to believers who say they have no sin. Such a person is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them.

The serpent is subtle, and makes the simple confusing, by turning the truth of God into a lie of unrepented sinful man.

Agreed.

As you say, it is utterly absurd to ever suggest the Lord Jesus Christ is somehow commanding His own people to sin. However, that would be the case, if we are to ensure we can rightly say we have sin in life.

Again, your conclusion doesn't follow.

If we're not sinning, how can we rightly say we have sin?

Well, that's the thing. No one is without sin; not even you. But, again, you need to define "sin," "sinner," and "sinning" in the context of 1 John.

True. If we're sinning. And if we are not sinning, what do we confess?

If you read what I wrote, which is what John wrote, you would see that one cannot claim to be without sin, hence the need to continually confess. The idea is to grow in holiness and so sin less.

Confessing to sin, that we have not committed,

Why would someone confess to sin they have not committed?

is as the lie of saying we have not sinned, when we did.

Yes, that is one of John's points. One is lying if they say they have no sin.

The lie of the devil with 1 John 1 sounds confusing, but it is obvious. The devil wants every person on earth, especially beleivers, to always be sinners, and to alway say they have sin in life. The devil never wants any repented believer in Christ Jesus, to ever say we are saints, and not sinning.

It would seem that John's point is that the lie of the devil is for those who claim to be believers to say they have no sin. He spells it out pretty clearly that such people are self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them.

How can any saint in Christ Jesus have sin, when in Him there is no sin?

Because believers still live in this world, right?

It's a simple test: What is the response when any Christian believer ever says we are now walking with Jesus as he walked, and still being tempted yet without sinning?

Do we say "Praise the Lord, Jesus wins again! And has made another overcomer in life as He is!" Or, "You're a liar, because we all still sin! The Bible says we all still have sin!!"

What say you? I have repented of my sinning for Jesus' sake, and I am not sinning with Him today.

Well, John says such a person is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It would seem that John's point is that the lie of the devil is for those who claim to be believers to say they have no sin. He spells it out pretty clearly that such people are self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them.

Can't a person who has just been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins say they have no sin?

 

[Free]

Can't a person who has just been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins say they have no sin?

Maybe for a second, maybe for a minute, who knows. But, before the day is out they will have sinned many times.

 

[Corinth77777]

Hopeful 2 what church do you attend?

 

[Corinth77777]

All men have sinned is a true fact. Man created and made sinners by Christ from the womb is a factual lie.

I only take the Bible is true fact.


True fact. We do so by grace that helps usto sin not by any temptation.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.



True fact again.

Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

Factual lie. The Bible preaches if we sin, not we will sin.



Factual lie. The go-to doctrinal excuse for sinning with the flesh, is that it's the body's fault.

As if the body made by Christ is responsible for being sinned with.

It's the Christian liberal version of blaming the gun, and not the shooter.




Man does by man's grace that is doctrinal cover for sinning.

God's grace is only for helping not to sin. Not for help not to be condemned while sinning.



Man's when for sinful man, not God's if for obedient sons.




True. If we repent after the sinning, not while doing the sinning.



In this life yes, even as with the Son in the flesh.




With the double hearted and disobedient yes, unlike the Son and His faithful brethren.


The fight is lost for every man while sinning. And the war is lost by any man sinning unto the grave.

The war is only won by obedient sons, that fight as Jesus and sin not unto the end.

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



True. And if we walk after the flesh, we are not in the Spirit and none of Christ's.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Whosoever abiding in him is not sinning: whosoever is sinning hath not seen him, neither known him.



True. The obedient sons that continue in the faith of Jesus and walk in the Spirit, shall not sin with the flesh.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The doctrine that all sons will sin and fall into darkness, the lie of disobedient children that justify their own double hearts.

It's only factually true for themselves, not for all.

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Hide only the factual truth of God's words in your heart, and cast out the lies of unrepented sinful man.

Then you may wholly repent of all your sinning for Jesus' sake, and begin to preach if we sin, not when we will sin.

You will be freer to do so by first casting out the lie, that Christ makes all men's bodies with sin in them, so that He tempts man to sin with their own body.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

interesting for I was just listening to something call depravity.

So explain what is meant by born in sin and shaped iniquity ?