1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[RBDERRICK]

John says it is a lie for a believer to say they have no sin, himself included.

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

The beginning of 1 John 1 is the good and true news of what repented saints are having and doing in deed and in truth.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Hypocrisy enters in vs 6 for the rest of the chapter: If we are saying something, that we are not doing, or saying the opposite of what we are doing.

If I am still sinning like you, and saying I have no sin, then I would be lying.

You are not lying when saying you still have sin, because as you plainly say, you are still sinning.

Except that while God never commands any believer to sin,

God is not commanding anyone to say we have sin, nor to sin.

It's the self-justifying Christian sinners that make it a 'rite of passage' into their fellowship of religious darkness.

Any Christian refusing to also say we have sin, and to also acknowledge we are sinning, is declared anathema to Christian religion.

It's the motive for all persecuation of the saints by hypocritical believers, beginning with Cain attacking Abel for being righteous.

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

he does say that they do sin and commands that they confess those sins to receive his forgiveness and be cleansed (1 John 1:8-10).

For all those walking in darkness and not in the light with Jesus Christ.

All true believers are in the light now by faith alone through grace alone, but they still sin.

This is the dcotrine of being saved and walking in the light, while sinning in darkness, that is the lie condemned in 1 John 1.

You do right by saying you have sin, while still sinning. The great error is also saying you are also in the light with Christ, while sinning and having sin.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

That's the reality of being saved

That's the lie believed for sinning unto the end in death.

But shun unholy and vain speech: for they will increase with continued ungodliness.

That's the reality of being saved

and progressing in holiness in a fallen world.

I know that's the reality of your salvation and progressive religion.

But, the pure relgion of Jesus Christ is not human progressivism.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Only those that obey God's command to repent at once from all our sinning and trespassing against Him, are now wholly sanctified and justified in Christ Jesus.

I understand your religion of sinning less by progressive repentance at your own pace, and don't doubt it's your practice in life. But it's not mine, because it's not God's whole-hearted pure religion declared in the Bible.

No one is trying to stop anyone from living out a sinner's religion unto death, but no one else has to agree with it, much less do the same.

 

[RBDERRICK]

These verses are very clear that we are saved (justified) by grace through faith, not by works.

What is clear is what you are saying, and clearly not what the Bible is saying.

Once anyone quotes this from the Bible: "We are saved by grace through faith, not by works."

Then I will of course believe it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I call it being justified by doctrine alone.

People can believe anything they want in this life, but no doctrine made by man, will be played when the Lord judges us all by our works.


Exactly. Hearing the truth from others is refreshing.

I have found that most all false doctrine, and even prophecy, has it's source in wanting to believe in eternal salvation by just bleieving in it, not by obeying the Lord.

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Amen and amen. They want to justify their own double heartedness for life, and even try to make Paul out to be the worst of sinners ever. Both before and after his conversion to Jesus Christ.

Romans 7 is resolved by the simple fact, that Paul first speaks of himself at present being dead to sinning, and married to the new man in Christ Jesus.

Then he backtracks to how he was a disobedient hearer before whole-hearted conversion to Jesus.

What God has written for empathy with sincerely double minded believers, that know they are wretched and need deliverance, the self-justifiers use to promote disobedience for life. And then claim Rom 8 no more condemnation, while still walking after the flesh.


True.

The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

The conscience is the light of the soul's candle, searching all things of the heart.

If the light is false, then so is all the soul in greater darkness.

IN THIS FORUM IT'S NECESSARY THAT YOU STATE THE VERSE WHICH YOU POST. JUST POSTING IT IN ITALICS IS NOT SUFFICIENT.
THANKS

 

[Free]

An apple seed will never be anything but an apple.
God's seed will never manifest the fruit of the devil.

The "any man" (one)" are the unbelievers that those who have already used the Advocate will direct the seeker to.
The unbelievers don't know God, so those who do know God will steer them to the Advocate.
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

If we...walk in darkness, we cannot say we have fellowship with the Father, that we have no sin, or that we have never sinned.
If we...walk in the light, we can say we have fellowship with Father, have no sin, and as all men have sinned, verse 10 applies to all.

If we confess, we can be washed by the blood of Christ, and we can walk in the light from hence forth.
There is no sin in the light.

Right, as our confession will be for all the sins we committed while walking in darkness.

You must be misreading it.
Believers walk in the light, which is God.
As there is no sin in God, how do you suppose sinners can be in God ?
Sin shows they know not God, and are walking in darkness.

Written of those walking in darkness.

All have sinned, so nobody can say they have not sinned.
But we don't have to keep walking in the darkness.

You are reading into it something that is not there.

Wrong.
He is making it possible for that church, and all that followed it, to discern who was and who was not walking in God.

Your source is a false prophet.
The fruit that betrays him ?...Continued sinfulness without end.

John didn't say it, your false prophet and accommodator for sin said it.

If one can never cease from sinning, they are practicing sin until death.

Those walking in darkness won't quit sinning.
Unless they have a true. real. permanent repentance form sin.
Then they can be washed of their past sins and start walking in God, in Whom is no sin.

Sinners will not inherit eternal life.
They don't walk in the light, which is God.

He is writing to believers, but about unbelievers.

Too bad you don't believe Rom 6:6 or Gal 5:24 or Col 2:11-12.
If you did, you would know the "flesh" has been circumcised.

You said holy, washed, sanctified people are not free from sin.
My verses showed that they are free from sin.

You are saying that believers walk in darkness.
You are saying that those who do not know God are walking in the light.
Both are erroneous ideas.

So, here is the main issue. On the one hand you say, “I prefer to trust what scripture says, without man's interference.” On the other hand, because of what John actually wrote in the Greek, some of which some translations don't translate well, you don't really "trust what scripture says, without man's interference." First, there is the interference of an poor translation by translators. Second, there is your own interference of not being willing to do proper study and learn what the Greek states; it's what the Greek states that is more important.

As I pointed out, even in the English, John uses the plurals “we,” “us,” and “our,” so that John is including himself in all that he says, such as in confessing sins. Then, in the Greek, John says to continually repent for sins (plural). If that is a statement for unbelievers to confess, why do they need to continually confess? It should be once and then they’re saved and no longer need to confess, according to you, correct?

Also, you have yet to address the fact that in chapter 5 John explicitly states believers sin, which agrees with what he already stated in the the first chapter—that believers sin. Additionally, you haven’t dealt with what John recorded Jesus saying in John 8:34, which John bases his own writing on—it is all about people’s lives being characterized by wilful, unrepentant sin.

So, based on what John actually wrote, those who walk in darkness have lives that are characterized by wilful, unrepentant sin. Those who walk in the light are justified (free from the guilt of sin) and are in the process of being set free from the power of sin (sanctification). So, believers still struggle against sin but are commanded to continually confess their sins to receive forgiveness and cleansing. In that way, believers grow in holiness and sin less and less (again, sanctification).

Until you acknowledge and deal with those points, until you decide to do some serious study, and as long as you stick to one translation (and a poor one as far as this discussion goes), you actually don’t trust in scripture without man’s interference. Interference is written all over your position, both your own and the translators’.


Same for you RBDERRICK (I’m not going to address the same problems for both of you separately). And, please, always put the biblical reference for each verse or passage. No one should have to chase down the verses you post.

 

[Free]

What is clear is what you are saying, and clearly not what the Bible is saying.

Once anyone quotes this from the Bible: "We are saved by grace through faith, not by works."

Then I will of course believe it.

I have no idea what your point is here. Please try and be more clear and precise in your wording.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So, here is the main issue. On the one hand you say, “I prefer to trust what scripture says, without man's interference.” On the other hand, because of what John actually wrote in the Greek, some of which some translations don't translate well, you don't really "trust what scripture says, without man's interference." First, there is the interference of an poor translation by translators. Second, there is your own interference of not being willing to do proper study and learn what the Greek states; it's what the Greek states that is more important.

As I pointed out, even in the English, John uses the plurals “we,” “us,” and “our,” so that John is including himself in all that he says, such as in confessing sins. Then, in the Greek, John says to continually repent for sins (plural). If that is a statement for unbelievers to confess, why do they need to continually confess? It should be once and then they’re saved and no longer need to confess, according to you, correct?

Also, you have yet to address the fact that in chapter 5 John explicitly states believers sin, which agrees with what he already stated in the the first chapter—that believers sin. Additionally, you haven’t dealt with what John recorded Jesus saying in John 8:34, which John bases his own writing on—it is all about people’s lives being characterized by wilful, unrepentant sin.

So, based on what John actually wrote, those who walk in darkness have lives that are characterized by wilful, unrepentant sin. Those who walk in the light are justified (free from the guilt of sin) and are in the process of being set free from the power of sin (sanctification). So, believers still struggle against sin but are commanded to continually confess their sins to receive forgiveness and cleansing. In that way, believers grow in holiness and sin less and less (again, sanctification).

Until you acknowledge and deal with those points, until you decide to do some serious study, and as long as you stick to one translation (and a poor one as far as this discussion goes), you actually don’t trust in scripture without man’s interference. Interference is written all over your position, both your own and the translators’.


Same for you RBDERRICK (I’m not going to address the same problems for both of you separately). And, please, always put the biblical reference for each verse or passage. No one should have to chase down the verses you post.

I trust what I can read, without using someone else's interpretation of what is written.
Especially when the interpretation leads to any accommodation for sinning.
When ever I see the false doctrine of "practice sin", I know it is of the devil.
It in essence says that apple seeds can sometimes bear onions, but still be born of the apple tree.
Those born of God's seed cannot bear the fruit of the devil.
Why you think God's seed can bear the devil's fruit is beyond me.

 

[Free]

I trust what I can read, without using someone else's interpretation of what is written.
Especially when the interpretation leads to any accommodation for sinning.
When ever I see the false doctrine of "practice sin", I know it is of the devil.
It in essence says that apple seeds can sometimes bear onions, but still be born of the apple tree.
Those born of God's seed cannot bear the fruit of the devil.
Why you think God's seed can bear the devil's fruit is beyond me.

You seem to not have understood a word of what I just wrote. You are using someone else's interpretation of what is written; that is the whole point. I'm not sure why you don't understand that. The translation you use, is called a translation for a reason--because it is an English translation of words written in ancient languages. And that translation is poor as it does not at all get John's meaning across in English, as the ESV and other translations do.

Again, do some actual, serious study of what the Greek states, which is to say of what John actually wrote. Until then, you do not trust what John actually wrote, because you are trusting in someone else's inaccurate translation of what John wrote.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You seem to not have understood a word of what I just wrote. You are using someone else's interpretation of what is written; that is the whole point. I'm not sure why you don't understand that. The translation you use, is called a translation for a reason--because it is an English translation of words written in ancient languages. And that translation is poor as it does not at all get John's meaning across in English, as the ESV and other translations do.

Again, do some actual, serious study of what the Greek states, which is to say of what John actually wrote. Until then, you do not trust what John actually wrote, because you are trusting in someone else's inaccurate translation of what John wrote.

I don't want to be reading anything that accommodates sin.
The devil has done just that in most every post KJV interpretation of the bible.
I will not swallow the devil's bait.

Perhaps you can find some instance of apple seeds not "practicing" bringing forth onions ?

 

[Free]

I don't want to be reading anything that accommodates sin.
The devil has done just that in most every post KJV interpretation of the bible.
I will not swallow the devil's bait.

You’re fallaciously begging the question, which really seems to be an excuse for intellectual laziness. Again, the KJV is a poor translation in this discussion because it is not actually getting John’s meanings across to the English reader. The Greek says what it says, which is that believers are to continually confess their sins for forgiveness and cleansing. According to your belief, we confess once and are saved, never needing to confess again. But that contradicts what John wrote. Even the English plurals of “we,” “us,” and “our” have yet to be addressed by you, as is John’s unequivocal statement in 1 John 5:16 that believers sin.

Do you think John wrote in KJV English? If not, then what is stopping you from going to the Greek and doing some actual, serious study?

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/1.htm

Perhaps you can find some instance of apple seeds not "practicing" bringing forth onions ?

Perhaps you can find some instance of a seed planted that instantly grows to full maturity and perfection.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You’re fallaciously begging the question, which really seems to be an excuse for intellectual laziness. Again, the KJV is a poor translation in this discussion because it is not actually getting John’s meanings across to the English reader.

But it does get the message across.
1 John 3:9's message is reiterated in 1 John 5:8..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Peter knew the message..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)
So did Paul..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

The Greek says what it says, which is that believers are to continually confess their sins for forgiveness and cleansing.

If they are believers, and Peter's first command to pricked hearts was repent, (Acts 2:38), how come these believers you cite haven't repented ?

According to your belief, we confess once and are saved, never needing to confess again. But that contradicts what John wrote. Even the English plurals of “we,” “us,” and “our” have yet to be addressed by you, as is John’s unequivocal statement in 1 John 5:16 that believers sin.

According to the doctrine which is according to Godliness, (1 Tim 6:3), repentance from sin is either real, and never necessary again; or it is false and a lie to God.

Do you think John wrote in KJV English? If not, then what is stopping you from going to the Greek and doing some actual, serious stud
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/1.htm

What I read and believe was sufficient for 400 years.
If it were untrue, God would have interceded during the years of supposed darkness.

Perhaps you can find some instance of a seed planted that instantly grows to full maturity and perfection.

What the Progenitor sows, always has the Progenitor's characteristics.
Seed has been bringing forth after itself, AND NO OTHER SEED, since Genesis 1:11.
No Greek scholar, or other accommodator for sin, can change that.

 

[GodsGrace]

But it does get the message across.
1 John 3:9's message is reiterated in 1 John 5:8..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Peter knew the message..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)
So did Paul..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

If they are believers, and Peter's first command to pricked hearts was repent, (Acts 2:38), how come these believers you cite haven't repented ?

According to the doctrine which is according to Godliness, (1 Tim 6:3), repentance from sin is either real, and never necessary again; or it is false and a lie to God.

What I read and believe was sufficient for 400 years.
If it were untrue, God would have interceded during the years of supposed darkness.

What the Progenitor sows, always has the Progenitor's characteristics.
Seed has been bringing forth after itself, AND NO OTHER SEED, since Genesis 1:11.
No Greek scholar, or other accommodator for sin, can change that.

You posted 2 Cor 5:21.
Why is it necessary for us to be righteous IN CHRIST, if we could be sinless and be righteous with our own perfect behavior?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You posted 2 Cor 5:21.
Why is it necessary for us to be righteous IN CHRIST, if we could be sinless and be righteous with our own perfect behavior?

2 Cor 5:21...""For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
It is only by being "in Christ" that we can behave obediently all the time.
If one is not in Christ, they can't behave obediently to God all the time.

 

[RBDERRICK]

ame for you RBDERRICK (I’m not going to address the same problems for both of you separately).

No problem. Good idea.

So, here is the main issue.

The main issue is between preaching the gospel of being justified by works, vs the gospel of being justified not by works.

Which enters into the difference between walking in the light with Christ, and not walking in darkness, vs saying we are in the light with Christ, while walking in darkness.

Do you say you are in the light with Christ, while you are committing a work of darkness?

On the one hand you say, “I prefer to trust what scripture says, without man's interference.” On the other hand, because of what John actually wrote in the Greek, some of which some translations don't translate well, you don't really "trust what scripture says, without man's interference." First, there is the interference of an poor translation by translators. Second, there is your own interference of not being willing to do proper study and learn what the Greek states; it's what the Greek states that is more important.

Little children can come to Him and believe His words. Not just little linguists.

Origninal language word study can help, but is not necessary to prove the principles of Christ.

And many people also abuse language 'scholarship' as a diversion.

Ex: Created christ believers manipulate the Greek to preach the word was a god.

Then, in the Greek, John says to continually repent for sins (plural).

If a believer is continually sinning.

If that is a statement for unbelievers to confess

This is disengenuous. I've nevefr said 1 John 1 is only about unbelievers. It's a specific warning to all believers against being disobedient and saying we are walking in the light with Jesus Christ.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him.

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. (Titus 1)

It should be once and then they’re saved and no longer need to confess, according to you, correct?

According to he Bible that is true, if we sin not.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. (1 John 2)

Also, you have yet to address the fact that in chapter 5 John explicitly states believers sin,

This is true. Disobedient believers are committing sin against God, just like any other sinner against God.

And if they insist on sinning against God unto death, then the faithful believers aren't even supposed to pray for them. Even as God todl Samuel to stop wasting time praying for rebllious king Saul.

If someone sets themselves to sin unto death, then God let's them alone, and Jesus tells us to do the same.

This includes self-justifiers saying they are also walking in the light unto glory, while sinning unto the end of this life.

which agrees with what he already stated in the the first chapter—that believers sin. Additionally, you haven’t dealt with what John recorded Jesus saying in John 8:34, which John bases his own writing on—it is all about people’s lives being characterized by wilful, unrepentant sin.

God never says all His people are wilful unrepentant sinners. All people have sinned, and many repent not, but the few repent for Jesus' sake.

And you've said as much in words of your doctrine, but now you openly call yourself a wilful unrepentant sinner.

Refreshing honesty.

So, based on what John actually wrote, those who walk in darkness have lives that are characterized by wilful, unrepentant sin.

This is true.

Those who walk in the light are justified (free from the guilt of sin)

This is the lie. You're preaching an unjust judge that has respect of persons' beliefs, and so does not judge their works the same as others.

Jesus saves His people from their sins. Another christ decieves people into thinking they are only saved from condemnation of sinning, not the sinning that condemns the whole world.

and are in the process of being set free from the power of sin (sanctification).

Progressivism is not God's pure relgion of keeping ourselves from sinning.

What work of the flesh is it, that you keep doing, so that you must keep confessing it and saying you still have that sin in your life?

Is there a timeline you've chosen to repent of it? Or will you carry it to the grave?

God's repentance unto salvation is from all sins and trespasses now, for Jesus' sake. Man's repentance for religion is from his own will, and at his own leisure.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So, believers still struggle against sin

Struggling and failing is for unrepented sinners. Enuring and overcoming is for obedient saints.

In that way, believers grow in holiness and sin less and less (again, sanctification).

Thnak you. A clear statement for progressive religion of wilful unrepented sinners.

Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: (2 Peter 2)

 

[RBDERRICK]

I have no idea what your point is here. Please try and be more clear and precise in your wording.

No problem.

"We are saved by grace through faith, not by works."

This is never quoted in the Bible. This is a misquote from the Bible, that changes the wording, and does not finish the whole verse.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The salvation and justification of God is not of any works that man can boast of.

No verse in the Bible ever excludes any and all works from being saved and justified by Christ. But only the works man can boast of without Christ, which are by the law and of our own righteousness.

The works of God we now do in the flesh through Jesus Christ, are the necessary good works to be justified by Jesus Christ.

God does not exclude His own works from His own justiifcation and kingdom. Otherwise, God would not judge works to justify or condemn a man.

The subtlety with Scripture, is that God excludes any and all works from justifying man by Jesus Christ.

The open lie is that any man is saved and justified by their own faith alone, without works.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Cor 5:21...""For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
It is only by being "in Christ" that we can behave obediently all the time.
If one is not in Christ, they can't behave obediently to God all the time.

That's not the point here.
Don't overlook the point.

IF we need to be IN CHRIST to be righteous....

It means WE CANNOT BE RIGHTEOUS of our own .

OF COURSE we need Christ....this is totally besides the point.
If we don't have Christ we have no hope of salvation.

The question is:
If we can be so perfect why would we have to be IN CHRIST (not believe in Christ) in order to be righteous?

When God looks at one of us, He must see His Son...
NOT US.
Because we are all marred by sinning.

This is why we must be clothed IN CHRIST.

Romans 3:14 We are made righteous thru faith, not by works.
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

1 Corinthians 1:30
And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

​

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.



I don't read anywhere in the NT that states that we are to be perfect.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's not the point here.
Don't overlook the point.
IF we need to be IN CHRIST to be righteous....

OK...

It means WE CANNOT BE RIGHTEOUS of our own .

True.

OF COURSE we need Christ....this is totally besides the point.
If we don't have Christ we have no hope of salvation.

True.

The question is:
If we can be so perfect why would we have to be IN CHRIST (not believe in Christ) in order to be righteous?

We can't be perfect outside of Christ.

When God looks at one of us, He must see His Son...
NOT US.
Because we are all marred by sinning.

Only the "old man" was marred by sin.
The new creature isn't, as it doesn't commit sin.

This is why we must be clothed IN CHRIST.

Doesn't it then stand to reason that those in Christ don't sin and are righteous ?

Romans 3:14 We are made righteous thru faith, not by works.
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

True, the works of the Law: circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, etc. won't help anyone.

1 Corinthians 1:30
And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

Those "in Him" are truly righteous, illustrating the "sinless" perfection so many abhor.

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Only those "in Christ" can pray for those not "in Christ".

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

One of my favorite scrip's !

I don't read anywhere in the NT that states that we are to be perfect.

Apparently then, you think there is sin in Christ.
If we have been baptized into Christ, how can we be sinful or less perfect than Christ ?

Here are a few verses either commanding us to be perfect or illustrating that we are perfect.
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
I have more if you need convincing.

 

[Free]

But it does get the message across.
1 John 3:9's message is reiterated in 1 John 5:8..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Again, you're not taking in the full context. First, John clearly states that believers sin in 1 John 5:16, so he cannot be saying what you think he is saying in 5:18, or he is contradicting what he said two verses earlier. You have yet to even acknowledge the fact that John says believers sin in 5:16, much less deal with it. Second, as in 1 John 1, 3:9 and 5:18 are speaking of those for whom sin does not define who they are; it isn't habitual, wilful, unrepentant sin and characteristic of the person. That can only apply to believers. What it doesn't say--what he doesn't say anywhere in his writings--is that believers never sin once they are justified.

Peter knew the message..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)
So did Paul..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

How, exactly do these relate to the discussion? You can't just quote verses as though they support your position without explaining how.

If they are believers, and Peter's first command to pricked hearts was repent, (Acts 2:38), how come these believers you cite haven't repented ?

You're talking about two different things and conflating repentance with confessing, and in the process ignoring John's statement to repent continuously of sins. That is what you have to deal with. If, as you believe, when a person first repents and becomes a believer, they're a believer and no longer have sins to confess. However, John is clearly saying that a certain group of people need to continuously confess their sins and God will forgive and cleanse them.

That contradicts your claim. So, clearly John is speaking to believers, those who have repented and turned to God but still struggle with sin. That is the only explanation, especially since John states that believers sin in 5:16. We also haven't even really touched on the numerous times that the writers of the NT are writing to deal with wrongdoing (sin) by believers. For example:

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
...
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Idleness is sin and so Paul tells believers to disassociate from a fellow believer who is idle. The NT has many such examples.

According to the doctrine which is according to Godliness, (1 Tim 6:3), repentance from sin is either real, and never necessary again; or it is false and a lie to God.

Again, repentance and confession are two different things.

What I read and believe was sufficient for 400 years.
If it were untrue, God would have interceded during the years of supposed darkness.

Is that why God didn't step in and correct mention of unicorns and Easter? Every translation has its issues and biases; even the original translators of the KJV knew this. It's unfortunate that so many that are KJV-only don't actually read the preface to the original 1611 written by the translators, to see that they didn't consider their translation to be perfect.

What the Progenitor sows, always has the Progenitor's characteristics.
Seed has been bringing forth after itself, AND NO OTHER SEED, since Genesis 1:11.
No Greek scholar, or other accommodator for sin, can change that.

Okay, so you have no example. That's that then and your argument to seed has no bearing on what John says. So, let's lay that aside and focus on what John actually writes.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Again, you're not taking in the full context. First, John clearly states that believers sin in 1 John 5:16, so he cannot be saying what you think he is saying in 5:18, or he is contradicting what he said two verses earlier. You have yet to even acknowledge the fact that John says believers sin in 5:16,

OK, I see what you are hung up on.
You see the word "brother" and instantly feel it is a brother in Christ.
But knowing that God's seed cannot bring forth sinners, the brother in question is either familiar or national in nature.
No sinner is reborn of God's seed.

Second, as in 1 John 1, 3:9 and 5:18 are speaking of those for whom sin does not define who they are;

True, as those in Christ don't commit sin.
Sinlessness defines them.

it isn't habitual, wilful, unrepentant sin and characteristic of the person. That can only apply to believers. What it doesn't say--what he doesn't say anywhere in his writings--is that believers never sin once they are justified.

If a man has never been a non-sinner, the entire life of the man has been sinful.
How much more habitual can one get ?

How, exactly do these relate to the discussion? You can't just quote verses as though they support your position without explaining how.

They all deal with living without sin.

You're talking about two different things and conflating repentance with confessing,

What would be the use of confessing if one doesn't repent too ?

and in the process ignoring John's statement to repent continuously of sins.

If one has ONE real repentance from sin, they won't sin anymore.
If one quits smoking, why would they need to keep quitting smoking ?

That is what you have to deal with. If, as you believe, when a person first repents and becomes a believer, they're a believer and no longer have sins to confess.

If the repentance from sin was true, they won't sin again.

However, John is clearly saying that a certain group of people need to continuously confess their sins and God will forgive and cleanse them.

Only those walking in the darkness would keep committing sins and need continual confessions.

That contradicts your claim.

Not at all.

So, clearly John is speaking to believers, those who have repented and turned to God but still struggle with sin. That is the only explanation, especially since John states that believers sin in 5:16. We also haven't even really touched on the numerous times that the writers of the NT are writing to deal with wrongdoing (sin) by believers. For example:

Only a false repentance would lead to more sin.
Those doing "wrongdoing" are not Christians.
They are unrepentant, walking in the "flesh", posers.

Idleness is sin and so Paul tells believers to disassociate from a fellow believer who is idle. The NT has many such examples.

Shouldn't we also disassociate from adulterers, liars, thieves, and murderers too ?

Again, repentance and confession are two different things.

They are indeed.
But a confession without repentance is a waste of time.

Is that why God didn't step in and correct mention of unicorns and Easter? Every translation has its issues and biases; even the original translators of the KJV knew this. It's unfortunate that so many that are KJV-only don't actually read the preface to the original 1611 written by the translators, to see that they didn't consider their translation to be perfect.

As I said already, if there had been some real issue, God would have stepped in to correct it.

Okay, so you have no example. That's that then and your argument to seed has no bearing on what John says. So, let's lay that aside and focus on what John actually writes.

The only proof either of us need is... what fruit can any seed bring forth?
God's seed cannot bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, murderers, or defenders of sin.

 

[Free]

The main issue is between preaching the gospel of being justified by works, vs the gospel of being justified not by works.

That is one issue but a different one from what we are talking about. Being justified by works is anti-gospel because it is anti-grace and makes Christ's death insufficient.

Which enters into the difference between walking in the light with Christ, and not walking in darkness, vs saying we are in the light with Christ, while walking in darkness.

Do you say you are in the light with Christ, while you are committing a work of darkness?

Going by what John writes in 1 John, all believers sin, hence the need to continually confess sins to receive forgiveness and cleansing from God.

Little children can come to Him and believe His words. Not just little linguists.

Origninal language word study can help, but is not necessary to prove the principles of Christ.

And many people also abuse language 'scholarship' as a diversion.

And many people don't want to put in the serious study to gain a proper understanding of what is said in the Greek. In the very least, multiple translations should be used. In this case, studying the Greek goes a long way to understanding what John actually wrote.

Ex: Created christ believers manipulate the Greek to preach the word was a god.

No, Christ believers did such a thing. Some may have struggled to truly understand what John stated, but it is those who aren’t saved that believe “the Word was a god.”

If a believer is continually sinning.

Exactly, because all believers continue to struggle with sin, to greater or lesser degrees on the path of sanctification.

This is disengenuous. I've nevefr said 1 John 1 is only about unbelievers. It's a specific warning to all believers against being disobedient and saying we are walking in the light with Jesus Christ.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him.

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. (Titus 1)

Again, please cite Scripture properly. That means book, chapter, and verse(s).

God never says all His people are wilful unrepentant sinners. All people have sinned, and many repent not, but the few repent for Jesus' sake.

And you've said as much in words of your doctrine, but now you openly call yourself a wilful unrepentant sinner.

Refreshing honesty.

Nowhere have I said any such things. You have completely misunderstood what I have written. Please go back and reread.

This is the lie. You're preaching an unjust judge that has respect of persons' beliefs, and so does not judge their works the same as others.

To be justified, which is what the initial point of salvation is, is to be declared righteous; that is what it means. God is just because he is the one who died in our place, making the payment for our sins, and freely gives salvation by his grace to those who repent and put their faith in Christ (Eph 2:4-10).

Jesus saves His people from their sins.

Of course he does.

Another christ decieves people into thinking they are only saved from condemnation of sinning, not the sinning that condemns the whole world.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Progressivism is not God's pure relgion of keeping ourselves from sinning.

And, yet, you teach that works are necessary for salvation.

What work of the flesh is it, that you keep doing, so that you must keep confessing it and saying you still have that sin in your life?

Is there a timeline you've chosen to repent of it? Or will you carry it to the grave?

What works do you do to help you attain salvation? Why is Jesus’s death and resurrection not enough for you? What do you think you can add to what what God has done, by coming in flesh himself, that would make one iota of difference?

God's repentance unto salvation is from all sins and trespasses now, for Jesus' sake. Man's repentance for religion is from his own will, and at his own leisure.

You’re conflating repentance unto salvation with what John is talking about in 1 John 1, namely, continually confessing sins. Two different things.

You also still need to deal with the fact that John says “if we [continually] confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9, ESV).

First, John says “we,” including himself among those he is talking to. Second, he tells those he is talking to to continually confess their sins. If John was talking about repentance unto salvation, and that happens only once, then why would he tell them to continually confess?

More than that, you must account for 2:1, where John not only calls his readers “my little children,” which would be referring to believers, he says that he was “writing these things . . . so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (ESV). Notice what he doesn’t say—that they must repent. Why? Because of what he wrote in 1:9.

In other words, he is writing to believers (and includes himself), telling them to continually confess their sins for forgiveness and cleansing from all unrighteous. And, while he doesn’t want them to sin, he knows they will, and so reminds them that they have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ himself.

I don’t see how your position can account for any of what John says here. Not to mention that he explicitly states that believers sin in 1 John 5:16; one more thing you need to account for.

Struggling and failing is for unrepented sinners. Enuring and overcoming is for obedient saints.

And even obedient saints struggle and fail. As they grow in holiness, they will fail less and less.

Thnak you. A clear statement for progressive religion of wilful unrepented sinners.

There simply is no way to come to that conclusion from what I have written.

 

[RBDERRICK]

If one is not in Christ, they can't behave obediently to God all the time.

Exactly, even as they declare of themselves, they are only obedient from time to time, when not disobeying Him from time to time.

The half-hearted progressive religion of unrepented Christian sinners, is not the pure religion of whole-hearted repentance, faith,a nd obdience toward God through Jesus Christ.