1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[Hopeful 2]

Maybe for a second, maybe for a minute, who knows. But, before the day is out they will have sinned many times.

You have a very low opinion of those who will give up their own past lives in order to glorify God.
Thanks to God's gift of repentance from sin, and rebirth from God's seed, man can walk as Jesus walked from the moment of their manifestation of desire to do so.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2 what church do you attend?

The church is called "The Church By Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)"
Thanks for asking.

 

[Free]

You have a very low opinion of those who will give up their own past lives in order to glorify God.
Thanks to God's gift of repentance from sin, and rebirth from God's seed, man can walk as Jesus walked from the moment of their manifestation of desire to do so.

My opinion based directly on Scripture and reality. It's the reality of being redeemed but still living in a fallen world. That is what John is addressing in 1 John--a true believer is saved but will still continue to struggle with sin. It's that sin doesn't define who they are--their lives are not characterized by sin like unbelievers' lives are--and they are quick to repent each time they sin, and so grow in holiness, sinning less and less.

 

[Free]

True. It is a lie for anyone committing a work of darkness, to say they have no sin and are walking in the light with Jesus Christ.

John says it is a lie for a believer to say they have no sin, himself included.

Even truer. God never commands any of His sons and children of the light, to say they have sin in life, much less to commit sin

Except that while God never commands any believer to sin, he does say that they do sin and commands that they confess those sins to receive his forgiveness and be cleansed (1 John 1:8-10).

It's the reason why they reject any believer, that says they are not sinning in Christ Jesus.

If that's so, then their self-justifying doctrine fails.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Being sinful is being a sinner by sinning. Anyone sinning, is sinful.

As James says, there are believers in one God, but so do the devils believe the same. But they are still sinning.

Are you a believer? Are you sinning? Are you sinful when sinning?


Sinning in life.

Again, you need to look at the meaning of "sin" in the context of 1 John.

Once again, you talk as if you've never heard any Christian teaching they are in the light now by faith alone, even when they are still sinning?

And, that they are no more condemned while sinning?

If you are doing a work of the flesh, are you sinning? Are you judged and condemned as others doing the same thing?

All true believers are in the light now by faith alone through grace alone, but they still sin. That's the reality of being saved and progressing in holiness in a fallen world.

This is also a consistent message of unrepented believers, who say they are saved by grace through faith alone, apart from works.

What is an "unrepented believer"?

That's opposite of the Bible, which says no man is saved by their own faith alone. The Bible only forbids being saved and jusified by our own works without Christ.

Again, it's clearly what the Bible teaches:

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (ESV)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

These verses are very clear that we are saved (justified) by grace through faith, not by works. Of course, Gal 2:16 says that we are simply "justified by faith." Salvation is a gift and gifts are just that--gifts, not something earned. As v. 10 shows, we are created for good works. Good works are evidence of justification; they don’t justify us. This is all the opposite of what you seem to be saying.

Please address what the texts are saying. By simply dismissing them and then posting other verses is to take the whole lot of them out of context and so pit Scripture against itself.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

And not by our works only are we justified or condemned, but also by our words.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

God judges our works, therefore, it is not possible to justify or condemn any man apart from our works.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

First, again, please post all the references to any verse(s) you post. Second, simply posting verses without any commentary is something that even atheists can do. It doesn't show that one understands what is stated, especially when other context is ignored.

 

[Hopeful 2]

My opinion based directly on Scripture and reality. It's the reality of being redeemed but still living in a fallen world. That is what John is addressing in 1 John--a true believer is saved but will still continue to struggle with sin. It's that sin doesn't define who they are--their lives are not characterized by sin like unbelievers' lives are--and they are quick to repent each time they sin, and so grow in holiness, sinning less and less.

I prefer to trust what scripture says, without man's interference.
That which is born of God's seed cannot commit sin.
Or are you prepared to say that the fruit of God is liars, thieves, adulterers, and murderers ?

 

[Free]

I prefer to trust what scripture says, without man's interference.

Which would be great but for your own interference. If you studied what John actually says and read closer, all of which I have provided for you previously, you would see that what you believe is not what Scripture says.

That which is born of God's seed cannot commit sin.

Where is that stated in Scripture?

Or are you prepared to say that the fruit of God is liars, thieves, adulterers, and murderers ?

No, the fruit of God is a holy people, “washed . . . sanctified . . . justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor 6:11, ESV). But nowhere is it taught that we are without sin, which gets to the heart of what John is saying in 1 John 1:8-10. We are being made holy and will be made perfect when Christ returns.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Which would be great but for your own interference. If you studied what John actually says and read closer, all of which I have provided for you previously, you would see that what you believe is not what Scripture says.

I know that God's seed cannot bring forth evil men.

Where is that stated in Scripture?

It is in 1 John 3:9.
Just like any other seed, God's seed can only bring forth after it self.

No, the fruit of God is a holy people, “washed . . . sanctified . . . justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor 6:11, ESV). But nowhere is it taught that we are without sin,

Here are three verses that don't agree with your POV...
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

which gets to the heart of what John is saying in 1 John 1:8-10. We are being made holy and will be made perfect when Christ returns.

You really can't tell the difference between washed, sanctified, justified people; and liars, thieves, adulterers and murderers ?
You really can't tell the difference between those walking in darkness-sin; and those walking in the light-God ?

 

[Free]

I know that God's seed cannot bring forth evil men.

Of course, but it is a seed. Don't seeds take time to grow and mature into whatever outcome is meant to be? Couldn't God's seed be expected to help get rid of evil in men as they slowly mature into what He wants them to be?

It is in 1 John 3:9.
Just like any other seed, God's seed can only bring forth after it self.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
...
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

First, note that in 2:1, which clearly ties into what he just said in chapter 1 (it is one continuous letter, after all), John refers to those he is writing to as "My little children." This is not a term for unbelievers, but a term of affection for believers that are likely his spiritual children or spiritually younger or less mature than he was.

Second, John certainly seemed to think that he was a sinner, along with every other believer:

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Third, John's use of the verb "confess" in 1:9 is in the "present subjunctive, speaking of continuous action." The translation of this verse given in Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, is: "If we continue to confess our sins, faithful is He and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from every unrighteousness."

Fourth, John uses the plural "sins" in 1:9, which speaks to specific sins, not just sin in general as in verse 8. This supports his claim that "if we [continually] confess our sins," God will forgive and cleanse us. We need to be continually confessing our sins, according to John, which is nonsense if Christians no longer sin.

Fifth, John says that believers sin and anyone who claims to be without is self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, and makes God a liar and his word isn’t in them:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
...
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Those are some very strong cautions for any believer who claims to be without sin.

John considers himself and all believers as saved people who still struggle with sin, and so need to confess their sins continually before God. He knows that living sinless in this life just isn't possible and that is why we need to continually confess and why we have an advocate with the Father. However, sinning should become increasingly less frequent in the life of the believer.

We should also consider what he says in chapter 3:

Both Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament and The Expositor's Greek Testament show that the Greek grammar of 1 John 3:6, 8, and 9, like in 1:9, is also talking about continuous and habitual action:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

Why would John say that? Because he is simply repeating what Jesus said, as recorded by him, in John 8:34:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. (ESV)

"The Greek grammar here is such that Jesus is speaking of those who constantly do sin, who live in sin" (Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary: John, p. 53).

John has already stated in chapter 1 and 2 that believers sin, and repeats that in chapter 5. So, who is John speaking of in 1 John 3:4-10? Those who live a willfully sinful lifestyle, those whose lives are characterized by sin; they cannot be believers. Yet he makes the case that believers do sin. It's just that their lives are not characterized by it--they confess their sins because they have an advocate before the Father.

It’s worth noting that in chapter 5, once again John explicitly says that believers commit sin:

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (ESV)

John's message is consistent throughout the book: believers sin, but their lives are not characterized by sin the way unbelievers' lives are. Willful, ongoing, unrepentant sin is a sign that someone is an unbeliever. Nowhere does John say, nor Scripture, that "God's seed brings forth sinners (or sin);" just as it is never stated that believers never sin.

Everything in 1 John shows that John is writing to believers and those who think they are believers, warning them that their behaviour, their character, will show whether or not they actually are believers. But nowhere does John state that believers don't sin; he explicitly says they do in 1:8, 10 and 5:16. He also says, however, that there is forgiveness and cleansing if believers continually confess their sins (1:9; 2:1), because believers have an advocate before the Father (2:1).

Believers are justified and commanded to be holy and submit to God, but we still struggle against the flesh, which causes us to still sin, and the devil, who tempts us to sin. Much of the NT deals with sinful actions of believers, as they learn to live their lives in Christ while growing in holiness, which is no different than believers today.

Here are three verses that don't agree with your POV...
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

How, exactly, do they not agree with my point of view?

You really can't tell the difference between washed, sanctified, justified people; and liars, thieves, adulterers and murderers ?

You really can't tell the difference between those walking in darkness-sin; and those walking in the light-God ?

How did you come to those conclusions, because they are not from anything I have said?

 

[Consecrated Life]

What is manifested in the flesh is just the evidence of the sin already committed in the heart
Jesus says that sin is committed in the heart where only God sees it, long before the evidence of the sin is made manifest.
The Christian fully understands the experiencing of sin within the inner soul where only God see it, and where no other human can see it.
A person who makes claims , unsolicited no less, of never sinning to other people is implicitly referring to their flesh, not their spirit.
Their carnal mind walking in the flesh and living for the flesh, their obsession to the flesh rather than the Spirit amounting to nothing more than a dare to Satan, rather than a testament to the great gift of a growing soul through the gift and Power of God.
Their lack of Spiritual understanding overflowing for all to see.

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Unfortunately, most readers are trying to use scripture to justify their sins.

I call it being justified by doctrine alone.

People can believe anything they want in this life, but no doctrine made by man, will be played when the Lord judges us all by our works.

By separating 1 John 1:8 from the context of the rest of 1 John, they have a false biblical reason not to repent of sin.

Exactly. Hearing the truth from others is refreshing.

I have found that most all false doctrine, and even prophecy, has it's source in wanting to believe in eternal salvation by just bleieving in it, not by obeying the Lord.

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The same darkened minds uses the same tactics on Romans 7, to accuse Paul of sin.

Amen and amen. They want to justify their own double heartedness for life, and even try to make Paul out to be the worst of sinners ever. Both before and after his conversion to Jesus Christ.

Romans 7 is resolved by the simple fact, that Paul first speaks of himself at present being dead to sinning, and married to the new man in Christ Jesus.

Then he backtracks to how he was a disobedient hearer before whole-hearted conversion to Jesus.

What God has written for empathy with sincerely double minded believers, that know they are wretched and need deliverance, the self-justifiers use to promote disobedience for life. And then claim Rom 8 no more condemnation, while still walking after the flesh.

I'ld call that light a conscience.

True.

The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

The conscience is the light of the soul's candle, searching all things of the heart.

If the light is false, then so is all the soul in greater darkness.

Yep.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Of course, but it is a seed. Don't seeds take time to grow and mature into whatever outcome is meant to be? Couldn't God's seed be expected to help get rid of evil in men as they slowly mature into what He wants them to be?

An apple seed will never be anything but an apple.
God's seed will never manifest the fruit of the devil.

First, note that in 2:1, which clearly ties into what he just said in chapter 1 (it is one continuous letter, after all), John refers to those he is writing to as "My little children." This is not a term for unbelievers, but a term of affection for believers that are likely his spiritual children or spiritually younger or less mature than he was.

The "any man" (one)" are the unbelievers that those who have already used the Advocate will direct the seeker to.
The unbelievers don't know God, so those who do know God will steer them to the Advocate.
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

Second, John certainly seemed to think that he was a sinner, along with every other believer:

If we...walk in darkness, we cannot say we have fellowship with the Father, that we have no sin, or that we have never sinned.
If we...walk in the light, we can say we have fellowship with Father, have no sin, and as all men have sinned, verse 10 applies to all.

Third, John's use of the verb "confess" in 1:9 is in the "present subjunctive, speaking of continuous action." The translation of this verse given in Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, is: "If we continue to confess our sins, faithful is He and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from every unrighteousness."

If we confess, we can be washed by the blood of Christ, and we can walk in the light from hence forth.
There is no sin in the light.

Fourth, John uses the plural "sins" in 1:9, which speaks to specific sins, not just sin in general as in verse 8. This supports his claim that "if we [continually] confess our sins," God will forgive and cleanse us. We need to be continually confessing our sins, according to John, which is nonsense if Christians no longer sin.

Right, as our confession will be for all the sins we committed while walking in darkness.

Fifth, John says that believers sin and anyone who claims to be without is self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, and makes God a liar and his word isn’t in them:

You must be misreading it.
Believers walk in the light, which is God.
As there is no sin in God, how do you suppose sinners can be in God ?
Sin shows they know not God, and are walking in darkness.

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Written of those walking in darkness.

1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

All have sinned, so nobody can say they have not sinned.
But we don't have to keep walking in the darkness.

Those are some very strong cautions for any believer who claims to be without sin.

You are reading into it something that is not there.

John considers himself and all believers as saved people who still struggle with sin,

Wrong.
He is making it possible for that church, and all that followed it, to discern who was and who was not walking in God.

we should also consider what he says in chapter 3:
Both Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament and The Expositor's Greek Testament show that the Greek grammar of 1 John 3:6, 8, and 9, like in 1:9, is also talking about continuous and habitual action:

Your source is a false prophet.
The fruit that betrays him ?...Continued sinfulness without end.

Why would John say that? Because he is simply repeating what Jesus said, as recorded by him, in John 8:34:

John didn't say it, your false prophet and accommodator for sin said it.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. (ESV)

If one can never cease from sinning, they are practicing sin until death.

"The Greek grammar here is such that Jesus is speaking of those who constantly do sin, who live in sin" (Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary: John, p. 53).

Those walking in darkness won't quit sinning.
Unless they have a true. real. permanent repentance form sin.
Then they can be washed of their past sins and start walking in God, in Whom is no sin.

John has already stated in chapter 1 and 2 that believers sin,

Sinners will not inherit eternal life.
They don't walk in the light, which is God.

Everything in 1 John shows that John is writing to believers and those who think they are believers, warning them that their behaviour, their character, will show whether or not they actually are believers. But nowhere does John state that believers don't sin; he explicitly says they do in 1:8, 10 and 5:16. He also says, however, that there is forgiveness and cleansing if believers continually confess their sins (1:9; 2:1), because believers have an advocate before the Father (2:1).

He is writing to believers, but about unbelievers.

Believers are justified and commanded to be holy and submit to God, but we still struggle against the flesh,

Too bad you don't believe Rom 6:6 or Gal 5:24 or Col 2:11-12.
If you did, you would know the "flesh" has been circumcised.

How, exactly, do they not agree with my point of view?

You said holy, washed, sanctified people are not free from sin.
My verses showed that they are free from sin.

How did you come to those conclusions, because they are not from anything I have said?

You are saying that believers walk in darkness.
You are saying that those who do not know God are walking in the light.
Both are erroneous ideas.

 

[Hopeful 2]

What is manifested in the flesh is just the evidence of the sin already committed in the heart
Jesus says that sin is committed in the heart where only God sees it, long before the evidence of the sin is made manifest.
The Christian fully understands the experiencing of sin within the inner soul where only God see it, and where no other human can see it.
A person who makes claims , unsolicited no less, of never sinning to other people is implicitly referring to their flesh, not their spirit.
Their carnal mind walking in the flesh and living for the flesh, their obsession to the flesh rather than the Spirit amounting to nothing more than a dare to Satan, rather than a testament to the great gift of a growing soul through the gift and Power of God.
Their lack of Spiritual understanding overflowing for all to see.

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Skin and bones can do nothing without the mind's complicity.
Thank God we get the mind of Christ at our rebirth from God's seed ! (1 Cor 2:16)

 

[RBDERRICK]

I agree, but that just begs the question, right? In order to agree with God, one must be certain they understand what God actually has said.

No, they must believe what God actually says, and take Him at His word.

How much understanding does it take to believe we must repent of our sinning, to have living faith in God?

God speaks to man on a child's level. Too many think God can only communicate approximately with man, because He is Spirit, which leaves plenty of room to 'understand' something other than what is plainly said to any child.

If more believers read the Bible, as parents talking to their own children, then less believers would try to read the Bible some other more 'spiritual' way.

Given that no book of the Bible was written in English, shouldn’t one have to study what was written in the original languages in order to have a full or better understanding?

It can help in certain things, but cannot possibly be necessary for the first principles of Christ to repent of sinning and have faith toward God.

Otherwise, only linguists could know the truth of repentance unto salvation.

It's actually more likely for leanred 'schiolars' seeking to corrupt the word by running to the Greek and Hebrew, rather than enlighten what we already know in our own language.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

Faith in God includes faith He has kept His words perfectly intact, and has them tranlsated accurately into all languages.

You have given an answer, yes, but what does “sinner” mean in the context of 1 John 1?

Sinners that say they are in the light, while walking in darkness.

Are you sure? Is the act the actual sin?

Aside from stating the obvious that act is in actual, I really don't play the word game.

Once again, God has written His words to us on a gradeschool level. Only 'higher learners' learns how to make simple things less simple.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

The serpent did the same with the surety of God's words, by making them less sure.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.

Well, maybe but certainly not surely...

I don’t understand what you’re saying here.

You've never heard some believers saying 1 John 3 is only speaking of those committed to sin in life, and not to those just committing the act?

They call it sinning 'from time to time', but not really committed to it.

God calls it committed to sin, when committing it.

What is?

Trying to distinguish between an act of sin, and being committed to sinning.

We are friends or enemies of God by what we are doing now. Frequency has nothing to do with it, because tomorrow is past, and tomorrow may not come.

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

I don’t understand what you’re saying here.

It speaks for itself. I can only be so plain about things. Are you saying you've never heard how stupid is as stupid does? Or the tree is known by the fruit? Or wickendness proceeds from the wicked, and righteousness from the righteous?

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

What act? Is it just one act that is needed?

To sin against God? Yes. Are you saying that the act of sinning against God, is not really sinning against God?

The soul that sins, it shall die.

Are you saying that for the believer, it's no longer the act that is judged, but only the faith?

There is no faith toward God, while doing an unrighteous work against Him.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Who is discounting current sin? What do you even mean by that?

When anyone says they are not condemned at the time of their sinning against God.

Once again, have you never heard certain Christians preaching they are no more condemned for sinning, once they believe in Christ, even when still sinning?

But what does John actually say in 1 John?

Those walking in darkness of sin, are not in the light of Christ.

Those committing sin, now have sin condemned by God.

Do you have any Scripture to support that?

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

Where is that stated in Scripture?

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

For there is tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that is doing evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that is working good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God.

God only judges the works we do, not the beliefs we hold. God does not judge us different from our works, based upon our faith or unbelief.

Trees are judged by their fruit. What we do outwardly, is what we are inwardly. Faith is as faith does.

No evil fruit is produced by a good tree, nor can a good tree have evil fruit. No one doing evil has a good heart. And a good heart does no evil.

No one is imputed righteousness by faith alone, while doing unrighteousness in sight of God and man.

 

[RBDERRICK]

An apple seed will never be anything but an apple.
God's seed will never manifest the fruit of the devil.

The "any man" (one)" are the unbelievers that those who have already used the Advocate will direct the seeker to.
The unbelievers don't know God, so those who do know God will steer them to the Advocate.
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

If we...walk in darkness, we cannot say we have fellowship with the Father, that we have no sin, or that we have never sinned.
If we...walk in the light, we can say we have fellowship with Father, have no sin, and as all men have sinned, verse 10 applies to all.

If we confess, we can be washed by the blood of Christ, and we can walk in the light from hence forth.
There is no sin in the light.

Right, as our confession will be for all the sins we committed while walking in darkness.

You must be misreading it.
Believers walk in the light, which is God.
As there is no sin in God, how do you suppose sinners can be in God ?
Sin shows they know not God, and are walking in darkness.

Written of those walking in darkness.

All have sinned, so nobody can say they have not sinned.
But we don't have to keep walking in the darkness.

You are reading into it something that is not there.

Wrong.
He is making it possible for that church, and all that followed it, to discern who was and who was not walking in God.

Your source is a false prophet.
The fruit that betrays him ?...Continued sinfulness without end.

John didn't say it, your false prophet and accommodator for sin said it.

If one can never cease from sinning, they are practicing sin until death.

Those walking in darkness won't quit sinning.
Unless they have a true. real. permanent repentance form sin.
Then they can be washed of their past sins and start walking in God, in Whom is no sin.

Sinners will not inherit eternal life.
They don't walk in the light, which is God.

He is writing to believers, but about unbelievers.

Too bad you don't believe Rom 6:6 or Gal 5:24 or Col 2:11-12.
If you did, you would know the "flesh" has been circumcised.

You said holy, washed, sanctified people are not free from sin.
My verses showed that they are free from sin.

You are saying that believers walk in darkness.
You are saying that those who do not know God are walking in the light.
Both are erroneous ideas.

I would say I wish I were so succint and pithy. But I know I like to ramble on.

Good work at sharply rebuking believers, that justify their continued sinning.

No one is walking in the light with Jesus, and in darkness with the devil at the same time.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be fornicating, or coveting, or idolatrous, or railing, or being drunk, or extorting; with such an one no not to eat.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What title? Teaching what?

I John 1 is against sinning believers, saying they are in the light, while doing a work of darkness.

What do you mean "not God"?

God is not telling all believers to say they have sin. Not all believers are sinning and not in Christ Jesus, in whom is no sin.

What you initially said was:

“1 John 1 is not a mandate from God for those walking in the light, to also be sinners.”

That is very different from:

“1 John 1 is declaring we must all say we have sin in our lives.”

"You've never heard of any believer saying 1 John 1 is declaring we must all say we have sin in our lives?"

If you're not going to quote me accurately, then we can't have a reasonable argument.

Your conclusion doesn't follow. John states the simple and obvious fact that everyone has sin in their life,

You're preferred reading, not mine.

He states the obvious fact that believers who are sinning, cannot say they have no sin in Christ Jesus, nor are walking in His light with Him.

but in no way does that become a command to sin.

If we are commanded never to say we have no sin, then we are commanded to say we have sin. And so we are commanded to sin, in order to honestly say we have sin.

The command is to not sin, but if and when a believer does sin, to confess it and God will forgive and cleanse.

If we sin, we still have an Advocate with the Father, that all sinners of the world have. And He will forgive and wash any man repenting with godly sorrow.

However, the revolving door of double hearted sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting, may close shut, if our confession becomes with lips only.

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

He is speaking to believers who say they have no sin.

He is speaking to sinning believers, who say they have no sin.

Such a person is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them.

True. No believer while sinning against God, has any truth in them, if they also say they have no sin condemned by God.

Well, that's the thing. No one is without sin;

Christ is. And them in Christ Jesus are without sinning, even as there is no sinning in Him.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

not even you.

I'm not interested in your sinning.

Jesus is my example, not you.

But, again, you need to define "sin," "sinner," and "sinning" in the context of 1 John.

No, I don't. The Bible says once or twice is enough.

If you read what I wrote, which is what John wrote,

What you write and what John writes are not the same to me. What John writes and what I write are not the same to you.

I own't say I have sin in Christ Jesus, while not sinning in Him.

You can say you have sin while sinning all you wish. It's better than saying you have no sin condemned by God, while sinning against Him.

you would see that one cannot claim to be without sin, hence the need to continually confess.

If continually sinning, yes.

The idea is to grow in holiness and so sin less.

We only grow in holiness of the Lord, while obeying Him, not while sinning unrighteously against Him.

The sinners' religion of sinning less, is not the pure religion of keeping ourselves from sinning.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

We know that whosoever is born of God is not sinning; but he that is begotten of God is keeping himself, and that wicked one is touching him not.

Why would someone confess to sin they have not committed?

Exactly. And why would anyone say they have sin, when not sinning?

It would seem that John's point is that the lie of the devil is for those who claim to be believers to say they have no sin.

Those who claim to be believers while sinning against the Lord and god, we claim to be believing.

It's the same lie of the devil rebuked in James 2, for anyone claiming they are believers, while not doing the righteousness of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is not doing righteousness is not of God.

Because believers still live in this world, right?

Sinful believers live in and of the world. Righteous believers live in but not of the world.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore is being a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Walk ye not according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the children of disobedience:

They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Sinful believers that justify their sinning, do not hear the message of Jesus to no more sin with the world. They only hearken to the message of still sinning with the world.

1 John 1 is the rebuke to sinning believers, that say they are no more condemned with the world, while doing the same old sins of the world.

I'll ask again: Are you in the light of Christ, when you are sinning again? Are you condemned with the world, when you are sinning of the world again?

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course, but it is a seed. Don't seeds take time to grow and mature into whatever outcome is meant to be? Couldn't God's seed be expected to help get rid of evil in men as they slowly mature into what He wants them to be?


1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
...
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

First, note that in 2:1, which clearly ties into what he just said in chapter 1 (it is one continuous letter, after all), John refers to those he is writing to as "My little children." This is not a term for unbelievers, but a term of affection for believers that are likely his spiritual children or spiritually younger or less mature than he was.

Second, John certainly seemed to think that he was a sinner, along with every other believer:

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Third, John's use of the verb "confess" in 1:9 is in the "present subjunctive, speaking of continuous action." The translation of this verse given in Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, is: "If we continue to confess our sins, faithful is He and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from every unrighteousness."

Fourth, John uses the plural "sins" in 1:9, which speaks to specific sins, not just sin in general as in verse 8. This supports his claim that "if we [continually] confess our sins," God will forgive and cleanse us. We need to be continually confessing our sins, according to John, which is nonsense if Christians no longer sin.

Fifth, John says that believers sin and anyone who claims to be without is self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, and makes God a liar and his word isn’t in them:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
...
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Those are some very strong cautions for any believer who claims to be without sin.

John considers himself and all believers as saved people who still struggle with sin, and so need to confess their sins continually before God. He knows that living sinless in this life just isn't possible and that is why we need to continually confess and why we have an advocate with the Father. However, sinning should become increasingly less frequent in the life of the believer.

We should also consider what he says in chapter 3:

Both Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament and The Expositor's Greek Testament show that the Greek grammar of 1 John 3:6, 8, and 9, like in 1:9, is also talking about continuous and habitual action:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

Why would John say that? Because he is simply repeating what Jesus said, as recorded by him, in John 8:34:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. (ESV)

"The Greek grammar here is such that Jesus is speaking of those who constantly do sin, who live in sin" (Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary: John, p. 53).

John has already stated in chapter 1 and 2 that believers sin, and repeats that in chapter 5. So, who is John speaking of in 1 John 3:4-10? Those who live a willfully sinful lifestyle, those whose lives are characterized by sin; they cannot be believers. Yet he makes the case that believers do sin. It's just that their lives are not characterized by it--they confess their sins because they have an advocate before the Father.

It’s worth noting that in chapter 5, once again John explicitly says that believers commit sin:

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (ESV)

John's message is consistent throughout the book: believers sin, but their lives are not characterized by sin the way unbelievers' lives are. Willful, ongoing, unrepentant sin is a sign that someone is an unbeliever. Nowhere does John say, nor Scripture, that "God's seed brings forth sinners (or sin);" just as it is never stated that believers never sin.

Everything in 1 John shows that John is writing to believers and those who think they are believers, warning them that their behaviour, their character, will show whether or not they actually are believers. But nowhere does John state that believers don't sin; he explicitly says they do in 1:8, 10 and 5:16. He also says, however, that there is forgiveness and cleansing if believers continually confess their sins (1:9; 2:1), because believers have an advocate before the Father (2:1).

Believers are justified and commanded to be holy and submit to God, but we still struggle against the flesh, which causes us to still sin, and the devil, who tempts us to sin. Much of the NT deals with sinful actions of believers, as they learn to live their lives in Christ while growing in holiness, which is no different than believers today.


How, exactly, do they not agree with my point of view?


How did you come to those conclusions, because they are not from anything I have said?

Great post!

 

[Consecrated Life]

1 John 1 first preaches the doctrine of Christ to walk as He walked in the light, and then rejects doctrinal self-justification while walking in darkness.

Exactly
Anyone you hear & see seeking self-justification by burdensome claims of purity of their flesh you can be sure is not walking in the Light but is living by the same carnal spirit of darkness by which the Pharisees & the Scribes gloried in the flesh.
Stooping down to the darkness of the grave, rather than rising up to the Light of God's heaven.
Anxious , craving , straining pathetic claims of little mortals so manifestly burdened and restless as a consequence of their neutralizing God's Eternal Spiritual Peace in favor of complete surrender to the cold system of glorying & boasting in decaying flesh.
So desperately destitute of God's Peace and rest and having neither .
Spiritually dead, their ceaseless restless pursuit of peace and rest in testifying of the purity of their own decaying flesh before the faces of men and women leads them on and on in the darkness of their thoughtless surrender to things carnal that can never ferry them over across Jordan to God's land of Light & Spiritual Life.
The Pharisees & Scribes would have welcomed them with open arms .

 

[RBDERRICK]

interesting for I was just listening to something call depravity.

Babes from the womb are not depraved children of the devil made with sin in them. And certainly not by the true God and Creator making all men and women in His image.

I've dared anyone believing that wicked garbage to pick up their newborn babes, and sweetly call them their own little depraved children of hell...

I don't think anyone has ever done so. (Unless of course it is some wicked 'parent' hating their own unwanted babies...)

So explain what is meant by born in sin and shaped iniquity ?

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Here's the cliff notes:

Faith is the true words of God given to His prophets and apostles, and translation accuracy is necessary, but not doctrinal loyalty to any translator.

Behold, I was shapen into iniquity; and into sin did my mother conceive me.

A superficial knowledge of ancient languages knows that many words can be accurately translated more than one way.

Both of the above translations are grammatical correct, but the second one is more doctrinally true in context of the whole Bible.

If you want the whole package, you can read on:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

We see the verse does not say sin has passed upon all men, but only the death of sin by men doing their own sinning. And since all men have sinned, then death by sin has passed upon all men.

We also see that sin has entered the world by man sinning, so that sinful people create a whole world of iniquity.

Therefore unlike Adam and Eve, all people have been born into a world of sin and iniquity. Which included the 2nd Adam Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.

And so, Behold, I was shapen into iniquity; and into sin did my mother conceive me, is equally correct in translation, but far better in Biblical doctrine of God.

The same can be said for another verse that sin nature lovers go to:

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

People can take this to mean that the flesh of man is sinful, and also that the Son came to condemn the flesh's sin.

However, another equal translation with different doctrine is:

God sending his own Son in the likeness of fleshy sinners, and for sin, condemned sinning with the flesh:

This translation is doctrinally confirmed by another verse:

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren.

Jesus Christ was made bodily in every way the same as His own brethren after the flesh, which includes being circumcised the 8th day as all Jewish males.

The verse first verse only confirms that all men have sinned, and so all men are sinners. But Jesus Christ coming in the flesh only confirms coming as any man, without reference to the sinfulness of all men.

And in another place:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

And also:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Once again, just a confirmation of Jesus Christ have the same fleshy bodies of all men made by God, with nothing said about all men being sinners, nor any flesh being 'sinful'.

And of course, God being perfectly complete in His word, so as to leave no room for doubt:

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The same natural seed of Abraham and David, was made in the flesh and blood body of the Second Adam, that was in the womb of Mary, who was born in the lineage of David and Abraham and Noah and Adam.

Therefore we can perfectly know something that ought need no explanation nor proof, if not for the false doctrines of carnal men:

Jesus Christ is come in the flesh of man.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (of man) is not of God:

No Scripture should ever be taken out of context of all Scripture, and Scriptures of God do not need to include all known doctrine of God in ever verse.

We must not forsake what is known true elsewhere, just because it isn't specifically include in one place. We could doctrinally say:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the (same) flesh (of man) is not of God:

Anyone saying Jesus Christ is not come in the flesh, is a liar. Anyone saying Jesus Christ is not come in the flesh all men, is a liar.

Those who preach a utopian immortal flesh and blood of Adam, is a foolish myth maker. And anyone saying the Second Adam is come in the same utpoiam immortal flesh of the first Adam, but not in the flesh of all other men and women, is a lying myth maker.

God still creates all men and women in His image, and makes all natural flesh the same as that of Adam and Evem which seed by David was in the flesh of Jesus Christ. And it was the Holy Spirit who made the body for the Son, out of the fleshy womb of Mary.

Afterall, He did so for Adam from the dust of the earth, and for Eve from the rib of a man.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Exactly
Anyone you hear & see seeking self-justification by burdensome claims of purity of their flesh you can be sure is not walking in the Light but is living by the same carnal spirit of darkness by which the Pharisees & the Scribes gloried in the flesh.
Stooping down to the darkness of the grave, rather than rising up to the Light of God's heaven.
Anxious , craving , straining pathetic claims of little mortals so manifestly burdened and restless as a consequence of their neutralizing God's Eternal Spiritual Peace in favor of complete surrender to the cold system of glorying & boasting in decaying flesh.
So desperately destitute of God's Peace and rest and having neither .
Spiritually dead, their ceaseless restless pursuit of peace and rest in testifying of the purity of their own decaying flesh before the faces of men and women leads them on and on in the darkness of their thoughtless surrender to things carnal that can never ferry them over across Jordan to God's land of Light & Spiritual Life.
The Pharisees & Scribes would have welcomed them with open arms .

I.e. irresponsible children of disobedience blaming their sinning on their poor hapless bodies.

Natural flesh and blood bodies, that are still made and shaped by Christ Himself.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

 

[Consecrated Life]

I.e. irresponsible children of disobedience blaming their sinning on their poor hapless bodies.

Exactly.
Just as Jesus said , you will never find God's child blaming anyone or anything but themselves alone when they come to repentance before their loving & merciful Father .
Good Lookin out RBDERRICK.


Luke 15:18-19
I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.