1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[dirtfarmer]

What He has stated over and over, is our works show proof of Christ dwelling within us, in which He Himself produces the righteous fruit of His Life from within us.

This righteous fruit [works] is the proving evidence of the living Christ dwelling with us, as we manifest His Life through deeds and words.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:34-36

Paul called this... presenting your members as instruments of righteousness.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?... 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:16-19


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

It is my understanding that God looks at the heart not external works. Man on the other hand can only see external works. Why would God need to see works to prove salvation, when he looks on the heart. By the way, when God looks on our hearts, he knows if it was for our glory among men or for his glory, even before it is accomplished.

It is my understanding that Jesus is not our king but our bridegroom and that we are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:14 " For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."
Romans 5:21 " That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."
Whose righteousness is it that reigns? It is not our righteousness because we are told that our righteousness is a "filthy rags". It is the righteousness of Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:21, " For he hath made him ( Jesus Christ) to be sin(sin offering) for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If he had...what?

If God had what, you ask?
If God had revoked "the gifts and calling of God" (Romans 11:29 NASB), then Paul would not have the gifts and calling of God. A plain read of the passage shows that Paul is saying that the gifts and calling of God that he promised the Patriarchal fathers (vs.28) have not been revoked. That's what vs. 29 means.

He's not saying once a person has eternal life they can never ever lose it, even if they no longer believe. There is no context in Romans 11, or even the whole book of Romans to support that suggestion. You have not provided a shred of evidence to support that suggestion. But of course you can't because it's not there. All you've done is used the book of Romans to define a couple of the gifts, which is not even the point of contention with me. The point of contention is, "what does it mean for the gifts and calling of God to be irrevocable?" In context, it does not refer to never being able to lose eternal life. In context it means God did not withdraw the gifts and calling of God, because of his promise to the Patriarchs. The salvation of Paul, and other elect people, being proof of that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is it our works in this world that prove to God that we are worthy of salvation?

Not the way you automatically think of what that means.
We are qualified for salvation and entrance into our inheritance by our faith in Christ, not by our works (Colossians 1:12 NASB). Our works are the evidence that we have faith in Christ.
I'm guessing you are Protestant by the way that works and faith seem to be two completely irreconcilable things. The Protestant chruch has been thoroughly indoctrinated to think that if works have to accompany justification/salvation then that can only be a works gospel. But the Bible is clear that works are the expected and obligatory outcome of the person who has been born again (1 John 3:6-10 NASB), those works being the proof of justification/ salvation, not the securing of it.

"6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:6-10 NASB)​

Ephesians 2:10 say that "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works." Does this verse stated that we are to do good works, or does it state that we created unto good works?

Both.
We are to do good works BECAUSE we are new creations in Christ.
It is because we are born again that we do the righteous things we could not do before we were born again. But the Protestant church has done a good job of misleading the church into thinking that to make righteous work an expected and obligatory outcome of being born again (see passage above) is to make the gospel the works gospel that Paul condemns. Not even remotely true.

 

[gr8grace3]

dirtfarmer here

What is it that condemns eternally to the lake of fire? Christ has paid the sin debt for the whole world. Faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the Cross is what applies that which Christ has accomplished, to our account. The only sin that cannot be pardoned is "unbelief" at the point of death. It must be pardoned while we are physically alive. Once faith is established in the cross work of Christ by an individual, that individual is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise according to Ephesian 1:13. It is whether we can break that seal, and who has the power to resurrect that which is dead after it has been crucified with Christ? In Revelation we find that only Christ has the power to break seals, not man, nor Satan. We also read that we are kept by the power of God 1 Peter 1:5. Do we have the power to determine the outcome of what we do? No, we have the power to choose what we do, but we were never given the power to determine the consequences of our actions. God has reserved that for himself.

Once born again it is impossible to be in-born again. Our works will be judged, not to determine entrance into heaven, but to determine rewards or loss of rewards.

Great post.

 

[Jim Parker]

It is my understanding that God looks at the heart not external works.

In spite of your understanding, Jesus said He will judge you according to your works.
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Mat 25:31-46 (NKJV) When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.

Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?”

And the King will answer and say to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.”

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”

Then they also will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?”

Then He will answer them, saying, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Paul Said: Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Peter said: 1 Pe 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

All of those scriptures say that, when God judges you, He will look at your your works, not at "your heart."

Don't hope that your heart's intentions will be sufficient evidence of faith in God's eyes. Faith without works is dead and will not save anyone.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Our works will be judged, not to determine entrance into heaven, but to determine rewards or loss of rewards.

By that statement you continue with your insistence on contradicting Jesus (John 5:28-29; Mat 25:31-46) and Paul (Ro 6:2-10).
Good luck with that.

 

[dirtfarmer]

By that statement you continue with your insistence on contradicting Jesus (John 5:28-29; Mat 25:31-46) and Paul (Ro 6:2-10).
Good luck with that.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

If that is how you believe, that is what you believe. It is not my job to convict you of wrong interpretation, only to point it out and pray that God will give you correct understanding. There was a time when I believed that we should literally wash the feet of other with water, but when the Spirit corrected my belief, there is nothing that can cause me to return to that belief.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

dirtfarmer,
How can you believe a doctrine that directly contradicts this verse particularly?

"anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God" (1 John 3:10 NASB)

How can you say that even the person who has no righteous life will be saved when John makes it very clear that the person who does not live righteously is not of God? You are the victim of a horrible indoctrination that is presently gripping the Protestant church. It teaches people to instantly gloss over the many passages of scripture that teach that saved people are changed people who are growing up into righteous lives, not wallowing in their old lives, taking false comfort in the church's profound misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. works justification teaching.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer,
How can you believe a doctrine that directly contradicts this verse particularly?

"anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God" (1 John 3:10 NASB)

How can you say that even the person who has no righteous life will be saved when John makes it very clear that the person who does not live righteously is not of God? You are the victim of a horrible indoctrination that is presently gripping the Protestant church. It teaches people to instantly gloss over the many passages of scripture that teach that saved people are changed people who are growing up into righteous lives, not wallowing in their old lives, taking false comfort in the church's profound misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. works justification teaching.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

Be very careful that you are not bearing false witness against me. I have never stated that any one that doesn't have the righteousness of Christ imputed to their account will be saved. I have stated many times that "We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Ephesians 2:10. It is faith in the cross work of Christ that brings salvation, not good works. It is a fact of life that we have been saved from the power of sin and from the penalty of sin, but we have yet to be saved from the presence of sin. That will happen at the 'RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS".

It is not the indoctrination of the protestant church nor the roman catholic church, that I espouse, but that which has been taught me by the Spirit of God. Jesus said in John 5:39, " Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and(but) they are they which testify of me." Our salvation is not in scriptures, but in the resurrected person of Jesus Christ, God's Son.

Saints are overtaken in faults, but as soon as they know it, they confess them and are cleansed from all unrighteousness. And yes, I do believe that people who are saved are being changed daily as they walk in those works which God has ordained that we should walk in them.

Scripture teaches " The just shall live by faith", and if you believe that it takes faith and works to be saved, then you are the one that Satan has blinded your sight.

 

[JLB]

Sure. Departing the faith in 1 Tim 4:1 means:

Means what?

Who does one have faith in, when they depart from "the faith"?

The truth Paul spoke of in 1 Tim 4:1-5 is that:

is that what ?

On the other hand, there are both Jews and Gentiles that have faith in Christ Jesus but do not have faith that every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;

So whenever we see "the faith" written in the new testament, we should interpret it to mean: "faith in what God created as good", and not faith in Christ?


Here's the context again:

8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith faith in what God created as good with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus faith in what God created as good.
14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly;15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, faith in what God created as good, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 3:8-4:4


There you go, from now on we all we just use this "re-definition", of what "the faith" means, when we come across it in the new testament.
2




JLB

 

[JLB]

It is my understanding that Jesus is not our king

Who is our King, if not Christ Jesus our Lord?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Saints are overtaken in faults, but as soon as they know it, they confess them and are cleansed from all unrighteousness.

Did you know hyper-grace doctrine teaches that even if the believer goes back to unbelief without repentance, denying Christ, they still retain Christ's eternal life? That is what is being defended in this thread.

And yes, I do believe that people who are saved are being changed daily as they walk in those works which God has ordained that we should walk in them.

Then you believe that works are the expected and obligatory outcome of faith just as I do. I do not believe that a person is made righteous in God's sight through the accomplishment of righteous works. I believe that righteous works signify that a person has been made righteous in God's sight solely through faith in the forgiveness of sin via the sacrifice of Christ (Luke 7:47 NASB).

Scripture teaches " The just shall live by faith", and if you believe that it takes faith and works to be saved, then you are the one that Satan has blinded your sight.

It takes faith that produces works to be saved. The 'faith' that does not change a person into someone who then embarks on a life of growth into the righteous stature of Christ has a 'faith' that can not save (James 2:14 NASB). In other words, the absence of righteousness at work in a person shows they don't have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works. They have a 'faith' that did not result in a born again experience (or they departed the faith). Martin Luther himself said it like this: “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”

 

[FreeGrace]

If God had what, you ask?

Yes, I ask because your post was unclear.

If God had revoked "the gifts and calling of God" (Romans 11:29 NASB), then Paul would not have the gifts and calling of God.

Which applies to every gift of God that is irrevocable. What is your point?

A plain read of the passage shows that Paul is saying that the gifts and calling of God that he promised the Patriarchal fathers (vs.28) have not been revoked.

There is NOTHING in that passage about "gifts and calling of God promised to Patriarchal father". And you've basically admitted that the passage does NOT list any such 'gifts' to Israel.

That's what vs. 29 means.

No, it means exactly what it says: the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. And Paul PLAINLY described 3 such gifts:
spiritual gifts 1:11
justification 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life 6:23

He's not saying once a person has eternal life they can never ever lose it, even if they no longer believe.

I'll tell you EXACTLY what he was saying. The gifts and calling of God is irrevocable. And since he previously noted 3 such gifts of God in the SAME EPISTLE, they are obviously included in what he SAID in 11:29.

There is no context in Romans 11, or even the whole book of Romans to support that suggestion. [/QUOTE]
It wasn't a suggestion. It IS a plain fact of Scripture, which no one has yet been able to refute:
1. The gifts of God are irrevocable.
2. Eternal life is a gift of God.
3. Conclusion of the obvious: eternal life is irrevocable.

You have not provided a shred of evidence to support that suggestion.

As I said, there was no suggestion. The point is that God's gifts, which include eternal life, are irrevocable.

The ONLY WAY your position could be correct would be if Paul specifically excluded the gift of eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable. But he didn't do that.

But of course you can't because it's not there. All you've done is used the book of Romans to define a couple of the gifts, which is not even the point of contention with me.

If there is no point of contention, then there should be agreement that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

The point of contention is, "what does it mean for the gifts and calling of God to be irrevocable?" In context, it does not refer to never being able to lose eternal life. In context it means God did not withdraw the gifts and calling of God, because of his promise to the Patriarchs. The salvation of Paul, and other elect people, being proof of that.

Having eyes, but not seeing. That sure describes your approach to verses that disagree with your opinions.

Since Paul DID describe 3 gifts of God prior to penning 11:29, there is no rational reason to exclude any of them from the meaning of 11:29.

But, we've thoroughly discussed Romans. Let's get back to the OP of this thread.

Please explain how one can be born again (spiritually) of IMPERISHABLE SEED, yet at some point in the future PERISH.

 

[FreeGrace]

Did you know hyper-grace doctrine teaches that even if the believer goes back to unbelief without repentance, denying Christ, they still retain Christ's eternal life? That is what is being defended in this thread.

I highly suggest reading the OP of this thread. And explain HOW one who has been born again spiritually by IMPERISHABLE SEED can later on actually PERISH for any variety of reasons.

It takes faith that produces works to be saved.

This is nothing other than a faith PLUS works system of salvation. And NOT found in Scripture. No matter how hard one squints.

 

[JLB]

I highly suggest reading the OP of this thread. And explain HOW one who has been born again spiritually by IMPERISHABLE SEED can later on actually PERISH for any variety of reasons.

When one reads the context and language, it becomes clear.


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

• Those who depart from the faith, can no longer expect to be kept by the power of God, for salvation which each person will receive in the end, if they continue in the faith and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

• Salvation is to be given to those who believe to the end, in which they will receive the salvation of their souls, at His coming.
• Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are not promised anything, except the eternal fires of hell.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

The key principle found in the scriptures throughout the entire bible: obeying the truth.

Faith without this principle of obedience is dead.

Those who do not obey the Gospel will will subject to God's vengeance on the Day of judgement.

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

explain HOW one who has been born again spiritually by IMPERISHABLE SEED can later on actually PERISH for any variety of reasons.

The Bible is it's best interpreter. I don't know who's quote that is, but I have found that to be the foundation for discerning scripture. Again, all one has to do is look at the context of the passage to see what Peter is talking about. He's contrasting the perishable things through which men were redeemed under the law (silver and gold, vs.18) with being redeemed through the imperishable word of the gospel of Christ, the "the living and enduring word of God" (vs.23), which, because it does endure (silver and gold/ the first covenant do not) can save to the uttermost. The significance of which Hebrews explains:

"Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:24-25 NASB)

"1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." (Hebrews 10:1-4 NASB)

As long as we are clinging to the imperishable gospel of Christ we have Christ's perfect ministry and sacrifice making intercession for us in heaven, keeping us saved from the penalty of our sins. Unlike under the law of perishable things (earthly priests who die, gold that corrodes, animals that burn up) Christ always lives, and the sacrifice of his blood is always on the altar in heaven and does not fade away, therefore, it is not necessary to reapply a sacrifice for later sin. Through our continued faith, Christ's sacrifice is always being applied to our account and does not require a subsequent sacrifice for later sin.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (that is, unless Christ is not really risen from the dead, vs.14,16)." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB parenthesis mine)

 

[dirtfarmer]

Did you know hyper-grace doctrine teaches that even if the believer goes back to unbelief without repentance, denying Christ, they still retain Christ's eternal life? That is what is being defended in this thread.


Then you believe that works are the expected and obligatory outcome of faith just as I do. I do not believe that a person is made righteous in God's sight through the accomplishment of righteous works. I believe that righteous works signify that a person has been made righteous in God's sight solely through faith in the forgiveness of sin via the sacrifice of Christ (Luke 7:47 NASB).


It takes faith that produces works to be saved. The 'faith' that does not change a person into someone who then embarks on a life of growth into the righteous stature of Christ has a 'faith' that can not save (James 2:14 NASB). In other words, the absence of righteousness at work in a person shows they don't have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works. They have a 'faith' that did not result in a born again experience (or they departed the faith). Martin Luther himself said it like this: “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

I don't study "hyper-grace". I personally don't find in scripture where a believer can "go back to unbelief", would that not be "un-born again". I do find where those that follow Christ by the power of their flesh can return to ungodliness. Scripture states that a hog can return to it mire, but never a "born again" returns to being "un-born". That doctrine is never taught in scripture.

I don't believe that "it takes faith that produces works to be saved", but I do believe that faith that saves will produce works. I don't believe that works are "obligatory" but a "natural"(change in nature) out working of the new creation in Christ Jesus. I do believe that we are made righteous in Christ Jesus but the work of God is in response to our faith. I do believe "faith that saves will produce works". Faith that doesn't change a person isnot faith, but a works of the flesh. There is no salvation outside, without, Christ.

There are many things to have faith in. I have faith that when I turn the key in my truck that it will start the engine. Faith will produce actions, but actions do not produce faith.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Who is our King, if not Christ Jesus our Lord?


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Please quote any scripture that states that Christ is "king' to the Church. There multitudes that say we, the body of believers, are his bride and will be present at the marriage supper in heaven as his bride, but never as his "subjects", friends of the bridegroom, as Israel is. We are heirs and joint heirs; is an heir ever a subject?

 

[FreeGrace]

When one reads the context and language, it becomes clear.

What should be clear is that the verse tells us that those who have been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED cannot, therefore, ever PERISH.

There is no "context and language" that changes the obvious meaning of being born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This doesn't change the FACT that those who have been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED cannot ever PERISH.

Those who depart from the faith, can no longer expect to be kept by the power of God, for salvation which each person will receive in the end, if they continue in the faith and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

Nope, the verse simply does NOT say or even mean this. The reason should be clear; when one is born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED cannot, therefore, ever PERISH. Period.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

The phrase "end of your faith" means exactly what it SAYS. It does NOT say end of your life, as your position seems to be arguing.

The "end of your faith" as found in a Greek lexicon:
telos (tel'-os); from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid):

What is the definite point or goal of faith in Christ? Salvation. Which occurs WHEN one believes, not at the end of one's life.

What is the "conclusion of an act or state"? WHEN one believes in Christ.

So, it's a gross error to equate "end of your faith" with "end of your life". The words "faith" and "life" aren't in any way equal.

Salvation is to be given to those who believe to the end, in which they will receive the salvation of their souls, at His coming.

Well, the Greek lexicon has refuted this misunderstanding. To "believe to the end" clearly means to 'believe to the end of one's life', yet the words "faith" and "life" are not in any way equated.

So your theology is based on a serious misunderstanding of what Scripture says.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are not promised anything, except the eternal fires of hell.

Yet your position cannot cite any verse that says this, or supports this.

Those who do not obey the Gospel will will subject to God's vengeance on the Day of judgement.

Apparently your position fails to understand that to "obey the Gospel" means to believe in Christ for salvation.

Your response failed to explain how one who has been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED can ever perish. The context doesn't lead to that conclusion at all.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"explain HOW one who has been born again spiritually by IMPERISHABLE SEED can later on actually PERISH for any variety of reasons."

The Bible is it's best interpreter. I don't know who's quote that is, but I have found that to be the foundation for discerning scripture.

Unfortunately your position has failed to do this.

Again, all one has to do is look at the context of the passage to see what Peter is talking about.

There is nothing in his context to conclude that one who has been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED can ever PERISH. Your position is in direct conflict with Scripture.

Jesus said those who believe WILL NEVER PERISH in John 3:16 and He said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

1 Pet 1:23 gives us the WHY such will NEVER PERISH. They have been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED.

Peter contrasted being born physically, which is of corruptible or perishable seed (our bodies will perish in the ground) with being born spiritually, which is of incorruptible or imperishable seed (our new natures cannot perish).

He's contrasting the perishable things through which men were redeemed under the law (silver and gold, vs.18) with being redeemed through the imperishable word of the gospel of Christ, the "the living and enduring word of God" (vs.23), which, because it does endure (silver and gold/ the first covenant do not) can save to the uttermost.

This is a terrible misread of the passage. The word "seed" clearly refers to birth. Recall "seed of the woman" in Genesis 3:15 as a reference to the physical birth of Christ.

As long as we are clinging to the imperishable gospel of Christ we have Christ's perfect ministry and sacrifice making intercession for us in heaven, keeping us saved from the penalty of our sins.

I'm glad that you've clearly admitted here that your position is "as long as WE are clinging to the gospel..keeps us saved". This is tantamount to keeping yourself saved by your own clinging. You've added your own works to the saving work of Christ. Your view removes grace from salvation totally.

Your response failed to explain how one who has been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED can ever perish. The context doesn't lead to that conclusion at all.