1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[Jethro Bodine]

I personally don't find in scripture where a believer can "go back to unbelief", would that not be "un-born again".

Yes, that's what it would be.

a "born again" returns to being "un-born". That doctrine is never taught in scripture.

The Bible says a person can be disconnected from Christ by not abiding in what we heard in the beginning (1 John 2:24 NASB). And anyone who does not have Christ does not have eternal life (1 John 5:12 NASB).

Being born again is simply having the Holy Spirit in you, but so many think it an impossible thing that the Holy Spirit can be taken out of a person as easily as He came into a person.

I don't believe that "it takes faith that produces works to be saved", but I do believe that faith that saves will produce works. I don't believe that works are "obligatory" but a "natural"(change in nature) out working of the new creation in Christ Jesus. I do believe that we are made righteous in Christ Jesus but the work of God is in response to our faith. I do believe "faith that saves will produce works". Faith that doesn't change a person isnot faith, but a works of the flesh. There is no salvation outside, without, Christ.

I'm at a loss as to how this is somehow different than what I've been saying.

 

[FreeGrace]

The Bible says a person can be disconnected from Christ by not abiding in what we heard in the beginning (1 John 2:24 NASB). And anyone who does not have Christ does not have eternal life (1 John 5:12 NASB).

The context has been shown to be loss of fellowship, not loss of relationship. There is no way to equate being "disconnected" and being "unborn". In fact, there is no parallel in life or Scripture of being "unborn". It's simply not possible.

Being born again is simply having the Holy Spirit in you

It isn't all that "simple". To be born again means that something dead has been "made alive" (Eph 2:5). And being born again is what the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee for the day of redemption.

And, there's no verses or passages that speak of the sealing with the Holy Spirit being broken for any reason.

but so many think it an impossible thing that the Holy Spirit can be taken out of a person as easily as He came into a person.

The Bible actually deals with this notion directly. Jesus said this:
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— NIV

So, how about facing Jesus' words honestly. I asked the Father for the Counselor, who we know is the Holy Spirit, to be with "you" meaning believers FOREVER. How long is that, exactly?

But your position is that the Holy Spirit won't be with some believers forever. So your position is in direct conflict with the words of Jesus.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Yes, that's what it would be.


The Bible says a person can be disconnected from Christ by not abiding in what we heard in the beginning (1 John 2:24 NASB). And anyone who does not have Christ does not have eternal life (1 John 5:12 NASB).

Being born again is simply having the Holy Spirit in you, but so many think it an impossible thing that the Holy Spirit can be taken out of a person as easily as He came into a person.


I'm at a loss as to how this is somehow different than what I've been saying.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

I know that you don't adhere to "John was a prophet to the circumcision" and that church doctrine was never given to any of the apostles to the circumcision. That is what is stated in Galatians 2:6-10 and is the basis on which 2 Timothy 2:15 is written. I know that you will probably refer to 2 Timothy 3:16, which I believe.

I have read in the old testament that the Holy Spirit came upon people to do a specific job, but never did he indwell them as He does the Church. David is the only old testament person that the Spirit indwelled. I have never read a verse that states that once we are sealed with the Spirit that the seal can broken by any one. We are sealed unto the day of redemption. Redemption has 3 phases: 1. we have been redeemed from the penalty of sin. 2. we have been redeemed from the power of sin. 3. we will be redeemed from the presence of sin when we meet the Lord in the air at then end of this age.

It only take faith to receive salvation; works come from that salvation, not salvation comes from the work.

 

[JLB]

What should be clear is that the verse tells us that those who have been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED cannot, therefore, ever PERISH.

What is clear is the words... "therefore cannot ever perish" are no where to be found in 1 Peter 1:23.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
1 Peter 1:22-25

 

[JLB]

This doesn't change the FACT that those who have been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED cannot ever PERISH.

Where does the phrase "can not ever perish" appear in 1 Peter 1:23.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
1 Peter 1:22-25

 

[JLB]

The phrase "end of your faith" means exactly what it SAYS. It does NOT say end of your life, as your position seems to be arguing.

The "end of your faith" as found in a Greek lexicon:
telos (tel'-os); from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid):

What is the definite point or goal of faith in Christ? Salvation. Which occurs WHEN one believes, not at the end of one's life.

What is the "conclusion of an act or state"? WHEN one believes in Christ.

So, it's a gross error to equate "end of your faith" with "end of your life". The words "faith" and "life" aren't in any way equal.

The point is: Salvation is received at the end of your faith, not the beginning.


Do you have faith in Jesus Christ?


Yes or No?



JLB

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Please quote any scripture that states that Christ is "king' to the Church. There multitudes that say we, the body of believers, are his bride and will be present at the marriage supper in heaven as his bride, but never as his "subjects", friends of the bridegroom, as Israel is. We are heirs and joint heirs; is an heir ever a subject?

Please answer the question I asked you.

Who is our King, if not Christ Jesus our Lord?

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. 1 Timothy 1:16-17


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

What is clear is the words... "therefore cannot ever perish" are no where to be found in 1 Peter 1:23.

Let's take a quick look at the definition of "imperishable" then:
adjective
1.
not subject to decay; indestructible; enduring.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
1 Peter 1:22-25

And, how does this support your very odd contention that "imperishable" doesn't mean "cannot ever perish"??

The fact is, that is exactly what "imperishable" does mean. What is imperishable will not perish EVER.

But that's only IF words mean things. But apparently they do not in your mind.

With that kind of mentality, one can argue anything, regardless of the illogic or unreasonableness of it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where does the phrase "can not ever perish" appear in 1 Peter 1:23.

From the meaning of what is found in that verse: "imperishable". Or some translations have "incorruptible".

Since it seems that words don't mean things in your philosophy of life, I'll provide the definition of "incorruptible" as well:
adjective
1.
not corruptible:
incorruptible integrity.
2.
that cannot be perverted or bribed:
incorruptible by money.
3.
that will not dissolve, disintegrate, decay, etc.:
an incorruptible metal.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
1 Peter 1:22-25

OK, once again you've provided v.22-25. What's your point? What are you trying to prove?

All that has been done is to ignore the clear meaning of v.23. Those who have been born again will not perish, will not be corrupted.

You've certainly not shown otherwise.

All that has been shown is the opinion that words don't mean things. With such a view as that, one can argue for anything, or against anything at all.

 

[FreeGrace]

The point is: Salvation is received at the end of your faith, not the beginning.

No, the point is: when is the "end of your faith"? I've already shown the Greek word and its meaning.

Do you have faith in Jesus Christ?

Of course I do.

But it's clear that you're not aware of what "end of your faith" means.

You're using it to mean "end of your life" but have failed to show any evidence for that.
But when words don't mean things, one can argue pretty much anything at all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It only take faith to receive salvation; works come from that salvation, not salvation comes from the work.

I'm amazed that you think I have said otherwise.

And you're reading way too much meaning into the word 'sealed' in regard to the Holy Spirit sealing the believer. Removing the Holy Spirit from a (former) believer is hardly the rock that God can not move.

The context has been shown to be loss of fellowship, not loss of relationship. There is no way to equate being "disconnected" and being "unborn". In fact, there is no parallel in life or Scripture of being "unborn". It's simply not possible.

It is impossible to still have eternal life if you do not have Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ IS eternal life.

20...we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5: NASB)

Contrary to OSAS thinking, when a branch gets cut out of a tree it no longer has the tree it was once connected to. You can't have the life of a tree you are no longer connected to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And, there's no verses or passages that speak of the sealing with the Holy Spirit being broken for any reason.

There is but you have chosen to change it's meaning:

"if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19 NASB bold and underline mine)

Only those who's names are written in the Book of Life can enter into the New Jerusalem:

"27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life." (Revelation 21:27 NASB bold mine)

And all those names who aren't written in the Book of Life go into the Lake of Fire:

"...if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15 NASB bold mine)

There is no middle ground between the New Jerusalem and the fiery hell where unrewarded, disobedient 'believer's go in the next life as hyper-grace insists. You are either in the city of God, or outside of it consigned to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. To say otherwise is to change the prophecy of Revelation. And the penalty for doing that is the very thing hyper-grace insists cannot happen to a former believer--loss of eternal life/salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is impossible to still have eternal life if you do not have Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ IS eternal life.

It seems words don't mean things to some people, which results is this comment.

Those who have believed are held by Jesus Christ, not the other way around as your position seems to want to spin it.

John 10:28 is clear and plain. He holds us and we will never perish.

20...we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5: NASB)

Great verses, neither of which supports your claim that one who has believed and is sealed with the Holy Spirit can have this seal broken for any reason.

And we all know what a claim without evidence is; opinion.

Contrary to OSAS thinking, when a branch gets cut out of a tree it no longer has the tree it was once connected to. You can't have the life of a tree you are no longer connected to.

Not only do words have no meaning, metaphors seem not to either for some people.

To apply any metaphor to conclude loss of salvation is stunning. Especially since the Bible has clear and plain words about eternal security.

 

[JLB]

No, the point is: when is the "end of your faith"? I've already shown the Greek word and its meaning.

Yes, and Salvation is received at the end of our faith.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

As long as you are in this life, there is the opportunity for you to be tested, that the genuineness of your faith can be evaluated, and hopefully be shown to give honor to God.

Like anything that we have faith for in this life, whether a job, and a spouse or healing... it is at the end, or fulfillment of that time of standing in faith and believing for what God has promised that we receive the thing promised.

When the Lord promised Abraham, to make his descendants as many as the sand in the seashore, though he was childless, Abraham had faith for children, or as it were, he had a son by faith, which meant he did not actually have a son yet, but had faith from God for a son.

Here is where it began:

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3

Abraham did not have a child, instantly, but he had the promise [word] of God that produced faith, for a child.

At the fulfillment or consummation [end] of this [word of] faith, he would receive a child, so that he would become a great nation.

So it is with us who believe and have not yet seen... whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

We who believe, have the hope of Salvation, because we have faith, [the promise of salvation] or salvation by faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

again

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23



JLB

 

[smaller]

Yes, and Salvation is received at the end of our faith.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

As long as you are in this life, there is the opportunity for you to be tested, that the genuineness of your faith can be evaluated, and hopefully be shown to give honor to God.

No one was worthy to begin with. That's exactly why we have A Savior. To Save. We don't assess our salvation by our "abilities."

The Working of Christ Himself IS involved in these matters. Not just the person. The person, in and of themselves having zero to give to God or to add to God. God Is Only Pleased by His Own Son. No one else can make such a pleasing performance.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

What you think you see in 1 Peter 1 isn't even there to be seen. Your position removes the Working of Christ and replaces it with only the working of the believer. That isn't faith in Him, but in ourselves. I have no such faith in myself whatsoever. IF I did, why Christ? What happened to Jesus and His Work, His Effectiveness, in your positions pictures? Your positions cast Him and His Effective Working aside entirely at the slightest causes of those unable to save themselves to begin with.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 Peter 1:23-24
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Everyone agrees that when one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, they are saved, given eternal life and have been born again.

Those who spouse loss of salvation have not been able to explain how one who has been born again can be UN-born for any reason.

I hope that at least one from the loss of salvation position will explain how 1 Peter 1:23 is not about eternal security.

What does "imperishable seed" refer to? It clearly refers to the status of being born again.

So, those who believe have been born again of imperishable seed.

Since imperishable seed cannot perish, how does that verse fit into the position of loss of salvation?

Peter is contrasting the efficacy of the imperishable word of the gospel preached (vs.25), and it's strength in redemption, with the perishable things of the first covenant and it's weakness in redemption (vs.18).

"...you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

24For,
“ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS,
AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS.
THE GRASS WITHERS,
AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,

25BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.”
And this is the word which was preached to you." (1 Peter 1:18-25 NASB capitals and italics in original)​

Just because the word of the Lord endures forever, being imperishable, doesn't mean those who believe that word will, or must endure forever. Peter is not making that point anywhere in the passage. You are drawing that inference. In fact, you're just saying that's what imperishable seed means without providing any evidence to prove it. You're just making a statement about what you think the seed being imperishable means. But we can easily see that's hardly the point Peter is making. And, it's very easy to see that the imperishable seed is the word of God, and that Peter is contrasting that to that which is perishable (gold and silver).

No issue of OSAS is being raised in the passage. None whatsoever. It does not address the issue of the necessity either way to continue to believe the imperishable word, or not continue to believe it in order to be saved. We have other scriptures that show us the necessity to continue to believe (hold fast) the imperishable word of the gospel in order to be presently saved.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Please answer the question I asked you.

Who is our King, if not Christ Jesus our Lord?

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. 1 Timothy 1:16-17


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

If you would do a comprehensive study of 1 Timothy 1:17 you would find "Now to the King eternal" refers to Christ as the "king, leader, prince, commander, of the ages. Scripture states that we are heirs and co-heirs with Christ and that we will rule and reign with him in the age to come, the millennium. The millennium is the earthly kingdom promise to Israel and as the bride of Christ, we will rule with him in that kingdom.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I'm amazed that you think I have said otherwise.

And you're reading way too much meaning into the word 'sealed' in regard to the Holy Spirit sealing the believer. Removing the Holy Spirit from a (former) believer is hardly the rock that God can not move.


It is impossible to still have eternal life if you do not have Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ IS eternal life.

20...we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5: NASB)

Contrary to OSAS thinking, when a branch gets cut out of a tree it no longer has the tree it was once connected to. You can't have the life of a tree you are no longer connected to.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

If the branch is cut off, it is not alive physically, but is it still a grape branch? What does fire represent in scripture? Judgment? Yes, it represents judgment. What is it that comes after physical death? Scripture states that it is judgment.

Scriptures state that all will stand in judgment before Christ, that is not disputed. The believer will stand in judgment for his works; not to determine destination, that was determined in life, but to determine rewards.

About 1000 years after the judgment of the believers, the first resurrection; scripture states that the rest of the dead will stand in judgment, again, not to determine destination, but to determine the degree of punishment according to the amount of truth that has been ignore.

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

If you would do a comprehensive study of 1 Timothy 1:17 you would find "Now to the King eternal" refers to Christ as the "king, leader, prince, commander, of the ages. Scripture states that we are heirs and co-heirs with Christ and that we will rule and reign with him in the age to come, the millennium. The millennium is the earthly kingdom promise to Israel and as the bride of Christ, we will rule with him in that kingdom.

Great, we are heir's and joint heirs with Christ, which means we are to reign as kings with Him.

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, [referring to the Church] 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:5-6

and again

9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood [ referring to the Church]
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
Revelation 5:9-10

Even though we are joint heirs with Him, and reign with Him as kings, He is still our King, and reigns and rules as King of kings.

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” Revelation 17:14

• Jesus is our King.
• Jesus is the King of the Kingdom of God.

We are transferred into His kingdom, when we repent and believe the gospel, as we are delivered from the dominion of darkness.


If Jesus is not our King, then who is?



JLB

 

[JLB]

No one was worthy to begin with. That's exactly why we have A Savior. To Save. We don't assess our salvation by our "abilities."

The Working of Christ Himself IS involved in these matters. Not just the person. The person, in and of themselves having zero to give to God or to add to God. God Is Only Pleased by His Own Son. No one else can make such a pleasing performance.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

What you think you see in 1 Peter 1 isn't even there to be seen. Your position removes the Working of Christ and replaces it with only the working of the believer. That isn't faith in Him, but in ourselves. I have no such faith in myself whatsoever. IF I did, why Christ? What happened to Jesus and His Work, His Effectiveness, in your positions pictures? Your positions cast Him and His Effective Working aside entirely at the slightest causes of those unable to save themselves to begin with.

Another deceitful attempt at mis-representing my words and the word of God.

Where do you see any such "self effort" or the promoting of "my abilities", or "saving myself".

Faith is the action of obedience, which comes from hearing the Voice of God and obeying what He says.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Noah built the Ark.
Noah built the Ark by faith, as he responded with obedience to what God told him to do.

There had never been an Ark built before, as there had never been rain before, which tells us God Himself guided Noah with grace and wisdom to do what he could not do otherwise.

This is the life of faith; not "self effort" or "self salvation", but the life of faith. The obedience of faith.

I will ask you not to misrepresent me and what I say, by twisting my words.

Here is what I posted:

There are no such words of "self effort" or "self salvation" or "my abilities" mentioned.

You are a deceiver and a mocker, sir.

Yes, and Salvation is received at the end of our faith.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him,yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

As long as you are in this life, there is the opportunity for you to be tested, that the genuineness of your faith can be evaluated, and hopefully be shown to give honor to God.

JLB