1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[JLB]

Yes, of course it does. And eternal life, being a gift of God, AND...the gifts of God being irrevocable, is irrevocable.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Your argument is not only un-founded in that, salvation nor eternal life is mentioned in verse 29, but mainly because the call of the Gospel still remains to the Jews, and is without repentance, meaning; they still have the opportunity to be saved, which Paul points out in his own life.

Can you explain how a person can have an "irrevocable gift of eternal life" while at the same time, have the call to salvation still available to them?

If a person still has an opportunity to receive salvation, how can they at the same time "possess eternal life", something that is still available to them through the calling of the Gospel; if they humble themselves, repent and confess Jesus as Lord.

Your "theology" places eternal life in those who have yet to obey the Gospel, by confessing the Lord Jesus.

Paul just mentioned this in the previous chapter, and is the context of Romans 11.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Israel Rejects the Gospel -

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:8-17


How can Jews you have yet to believe the Gospel, though they still are called, have eternal life?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"No, I'm merely noting that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God."

No, you're not merely doing that.

Well, that is exactly what I've been doing.

You have assigned a meaning to "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (vs.29) that the context does not support in any way shape or form.

The error is in trying to EXCLUDE ALL the gifts that Paul had already noted before he wrote 11:29. By mentioning "gifts of God" in 11:29, EVERYTHING that Paul previously described as a gift of God BECOMES CONTEXT FOR THAT VERSE.

Here's the whole sentence from which you are un-rightly dividing vs.29 from:

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29 NASB)​

Who is 'they' in the verse?

The "they" are Israel. So what? v.29 isn't limited to Israel, as is being ASSUMED. Pure conjecture, nothing less.

Doctrine isn't developed on assumption and conjecture. It's based on what the Word SAYS clearly.

Here is what the Word of God has SAID clearly:
1. The gifts of God are irrevocable. Note that there is nothing anywhere in ch 11 to exclude any of God's gifts from v.29.
2. Eternal life is a gift of God. Paul never excluded this gift from v.29.

Whatever one thinks the "gifts of God to Israel" are, they also extend to all of God's gifts. Because Paul never limited gifts to whatever it is that some think have been given to Israel only.

In fact, there is nothing in ch 11 to even conclude "gifts of God to israel". The view has no support whatsoever.

 

[FreeGrace]

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Since we DON'T find any of these qualifiers before "gifts", such as:
"a few", "some", "a number of", "many", or "most", we can be assurred that Paul meant ALL of God's gifts.

Your argument is not only un-founded

I JUST proved that it is your argument is unfounded. Paul didn't limit the "gifts of God" to exclude the gift of eternal life.

in that, salvation nor eternal life is mentioned in verse 29

Since Paul had already previously described 3 specific gifts of God, there is no reason for him to repeat himself. So your arguement is again, unfounded

but mainly because the call of the Gospel still remains to the Jews, and is without repentance, meaning; they still have the opportunity to be saved, which Paul points out in his own life.

Unless and until someone can prove that "the call of the gospel to the Jews" is what the gift means in 11:29, your argument is again, unfounded.

Can you explain how a person can have an "irrevocable gift of eternal life" while at the same time, have the call to salvation still available to them?

I don't have to since the question is faulty and doesn't make sense. I can easily explain how a person can have the irrevocable gift of eternal life: they believed in Christ. And God's will is that those who believe will HAVE eternal life, per John 6:40.

By the very fact that one has the irrevocable gift of eternal life shows, proves, demonstrates that the call to salvation WAS available to them.

If the call wasn't available to them, they COULDN'T even have eternal life.

If a person still has an opportunity to receive salvation, how can they at the same time "possess eternal life", something that is still available to them through the calling of the Gospel; if they humble themselves, repent and confess Jesus as Lord.

This is too confused imo to even try to answer.

Your "theology" places eternal life in those who have yet to obey the Gospel, by confessing the Lord Jesus.

Then please explain HOW that is possible, since I've never even come close to making that statement.

In fact, my theology is clear and simple: the call to salvation is available to everyone, per Titus 2:11, those who believe in Christ HAVE eternal life per John 5:24.

How can Jews you have yet to believe the Gospel, though they still are called, have eternal life?
JLB

I can't figure out your question since you've already acknowledged that Paul HAD eternal life.

I can't figure out WHY you've come to the conclusion that anyone who hasn't believed the gospel could even have eternal life.

Your claims have a lot of explaining to do.

But you've been long on claims, and very short on explanations up to this point.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

1 Thessalonians 5:8-9, " But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, " Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work."

If we are not appointed to wrath, but to salvation, and have been given "everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, how is it that OSAS is a false doctrine?

 

[smaller]

dirtfarmer here

1 Thessalonians 5:8-9, " But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, " Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work."

If we are not appointed to wrath, but to salvation, and have been given "everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, how is it that OSAS is a false doctrine?

It is God in Christ Himself who set that fire in the churches, where every person is dead set against another. That is the arousal and empowering of indwelling sin and evil present, in our own members, trying by every bit of power to destroy one another.

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Let it burn. The hotter the better.

There is no deeper form of fleshly arrogance and hypocrisy, that sits any man with indwelling sin and evil present in the Eternal Adverse Judgment Chair.

That action is God, Actively Working against the flesh.

Fire up!

 

[JLB]

Oh, gee. I guess the words "and the calling" somehow magically and mystically change the meaning of "the gifts...of God are irrevocable".

Absolutely!

By saying "calling", Eternal life can not possibly be included, because the calling of Salvation remains available to the Jews who at first have reject Christ Jesus as both Messiah and Lord.

How can Jews you have yet to believe the Gospel, though they still are called, have eternal life?


Of course it's clear to all that you understand this, because you keep quoting only half of the verse.

Here is what Romans 11:29 actually says: For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Oh, gee. I guess the words "and the calling" somehow magically and mystically change the meaning of "the gifts...of God are irrevocable"."

Absolutely!

And that's why I so strongly disagree with your position.

By saying "calling", Eternal life can not possibly be included, because the calling of Salvation remains available to the Jews who at first have reject Christ Jesus as both Messiah and Lord.

Why is it difficult to understand that Paul was mentioning 2 different things in v.29? iow, BOTH God's gifts AND God's call are irrevocable.

So, all the things that are described as God's gifts are irrevocable. Which means they will not be taken away by God, who gave them.
And, God's call, which means "to invite" is never withdrawn.

How can Jews you have yet to believe the Gospel, though they still are called, have eternal life?{/QUOTE]
This question continues to make no sense. Those who "have yet to believe the gospel" do NOT have eternal life. But they DO have the invitation. When they believe, THEN they HAVE the irrevocable gift of eternal life.

Of course it's clear to all that you understand this, because you keep quoting only half of the verse.

No need to include all of the verse to prove that eternal life is irrevocable.

Here is what Romans 11:29 actually says: For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
JLB

At least now I see where all your confusion lies. Paul was describing TWO separate things that are irrevocable:
All of God's gifts, of which Paul specifically described previously in Romans, AND God's invitation to the gospel.

So, I will repeat: BOTH God's gifts are irrevocable, AND God's call is irrevocable.

So now your confused question can be laid to rest.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Oh, gee. I guess the words "and the calling" somehow magically and mystically change the meaning of "the gifts...of God are irrevocable"."

Yes.

How can Jews you have yet to believe the Gospel, though they still are called, have eternal life?

 

[dirtfarmer]

It is God in Christ Himself who set that fire in the churches, where every person is dead set against another. That is the arousal and empowering of indwelling sin and evil present, in our own members, trying by every bit of power to destroy one another.

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Let it burn. The hotter the better.

There is no deeper form of fleshly arrogance and hypocrisy, that sits any man with indwelling sin and evil present in the Eternal Adverse Judgment Chair.

That action is God, Actively Working against the flesh.

Fire up!

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Would you mind explaining what fire you are talking about. It is not sin, because the strength of sin is the law and Christ fulfilled the law, therefore, those in Christ are not subject to the law, but are heirs and fellow-heirs with Christ.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Would you mind explaining what fire you are talking about. It is not sin, because the strength of sin is the law and Christ fulfilled the law, therefore, those in Christ are not subject to the law, but are heirs and fellow-heirs with Christ.

The eternal torture fire some of these destroyers of other believers bear is in fact already "within" themselves. That's why I say, not only let it burn, but pour gas on it.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

 

[dirtfarmer]

The eternal torture fire some of these destroyers of other believers bear is in fact already "within" themselves. That's why I say, not only let it burn, but pour gas on it.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

So, you don't believe that we should pray for the salvation of all men?

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

So, you don't believe that we should pray for the salvation of all men?

Depends on how you see the scriptural construct of man. Can we pray that a believer be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh? Yep! Not very nice, granted. But that quest is also put forth to us. 1 Cor. 5:4-5.

How much more do we then pray, TO THAT END for murderers in the church, killing people in the name of God? Not only killing, but sentencing believers to burn alive forever? How much more for pedophiles in the church? You get the picture here? It's called turn on the GAS and let them run to their own end.

Now, in light of this, how much more harshly does God Himself judge and deal with those not of faith, in the world? These are not always pretty pictures. Not at all.

The "end" of a lot of faith in Jesus quests ends up in some VERY VERY bad internal places. And this particular altered form of "killing" is the favorite pastime of unfortunately quite a lot of believers. They get sucked and suckered into the black morass of eternal damnation judgment to other believers. Happens every day, "in the church."

Do you know what the doctrine of the Nicolations is, that Jesus references in Rev? That doctrine which HE HATES?

Nicolaitans = "destruction of people"

And there, at that altar, the majority supplicate themselves. Divine Judgment is not an easy or petty matter to fall into. All those who chortle unto themselves, that they are avoiding what they cast upon another believer are only kidding themselves. They have taken that form of fire into themselves.

It's the worst fate that God has to offer any believer. They have been cursed by God.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Kind of puts a real perspective of what is going on on the inside, don't you think?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Oh, gee. I guess the words "and the calling" somehow magically and mystically change the meaning of "the gifts...of God are irrevocable"."

Yes.

There is NO magic nor mystic in God's Word. Only in people's minds.

How can Jews you have yet to believe the Gospel, though they still are called, have eternal life?

How was my answer to this question not understood?

The question is fallacious, since NO ONE who "has yet to believe" can have eternal life. One MUST first believe the gospel in order to have eternal life.

Why haven't you explained how my view could be such nonsense? I've shown that your question has no basis for my views, therefore, it cannot be answered.

Everyone is called to believe the gospel, per Titus 2:11. If there is disagreement, please explain.

Only those who believe the gospel have eternal life, per John 3:15,16, 6:40, 47, 11:25-26.

Once again, as I posted earlier:

I can't figure out WHY you've come to the conclusion that anyone who hasn't believed the gospel could even have eternal life.

Your claims have a lot of explaining to do.

But you've been long on claims, and very short on explanations up to this point.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The "they" are Israel. So what?

Yes, the 'they' in the sentence is Israel. Israel is the subject of the sentence for whom Paul says the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable:

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29 NASB)​

According to the sentence, God's gifts and calling being irrevocable means the Israelites are what by God?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we are not appointed to wrath, but to salvation, and have been given "everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, how is it that OSAS is a false doctrine?

Because it ignores the whole counsel of scripture that teaches us that the promises are conditioned on a person continuing to believe.

Somewhere along the line in the Protestant church Paul's 'faith vs. works for justification' teaching got changed into there being no conditions whatsoever to be justified/saved, so that even the necessity for a continued believing got removed for fear of that making the gospel a works gospel. How ridiculous.

 

[smaller]

Because it ignores the whole counsel of scripture that teaches us that the promises are conditioned on a person continuing to believe.

Somewhere along the line in the Protestant church Paul's 'faith vs. works for justification' teaching got changed into there being no conditions whatsoever to be justified/saved, so that even the necessity for a continued believing got removed for fear of that making the gospel a works gospel. How ridiculous.

Paul never taught any man could "earn" their way into heaven by any stretch of the imaginations. To rule over the evil present with us is the only thing laid before us all. But to say we don't have evil present to rule over only makes us into liars about it and pawns to it. Romans 7:21.

Now, ask me how much worth the work of any man with evil present in them is worth? I'll tell you exactly nothing. Filthy rags righteousness is the best description of such works, from The Mouth of God:

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Do any of us think we get to blow hole to God about how great we ruled over evil present, thereby earning our way into heaven? I'd dare say God would say BIG DEAL. So did a lot of other people do the same thing, and they believed NOT.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Depends on how you see the scriptural construct of man. Can we pray that a believer be turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh? Yep! Not very nice, granted. But that quest is also put forth to us. 1 Cor. 5:4-5.

How much more do we then pray, TO THAT END for murderers in the church, killing people in the name of God? Not only killing, but sentencing believers to burn alive forever? How much more for pedophiles in the church? You get the picture here? It's called turn on the GAS and let them run to their own end.

Now, in light of this, how much more harshly does God Himself judge and deal with those not of faith, in the world? These are not always pretty pictures. Not at all.

The "end" of a lot of faith in Jesus quests ends up in some VERY VERY bad internal places. And this particular altered form of "killing" is the favorite pastime of unfortunately quite a lot of believers. They get sucked and suckered into the black morass of eternal damnation judgment to other believers. Happens every day, "in the church."

Do you know what the doctrine of the Nicolations is, that Jesus references in Rev? That doctrine which HE HATES?

Nicolaitans = "destruction of people"

And there, at that altar, the majority supplicate themselves. Divine Judgment is not an easy or petty matter to fall into. All those who chortle unto themselves, that they are avoiding what they cast upon another believer are only kidding themselves. They have taken that form of fire into themselves.

It's the worst fate that God has to offer any believer. They have been cursed by God.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Kind of puts a real perspective of what is going on on the inside, don't you think?

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You do understand in 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 it is not the "body of the believer" that is turned over but "the flesh"

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You do understand in 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 it is not the "body of the believer" that is turned over but "the flesh"

Of course. But equally noted, is what the flesh contains. Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 5:17.

We might be cognizant of our conditions of planting. 1 Cor. 15:42-46. But, the flesh can neither see NOR agree to any of those terms and conditions noted above. In fact, it is impossible.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Because it ignores the whole counsel of scripture that teaches us that the promises are conditioned on a person continuing to believe.

Somewhere along the line in the Protestant church Paul's 'faith vs. works for justification' teaching got changed into there being no conditions whatsoever to be justified/saved, so that even the necessity for a continued believing got removed for fear of that making the gospel a works gospel. How ridiculous.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

Am I to assume that you are not "protestant"?

So it is your belief that we are kept by our own power? The power of belief and not the power of God, that he gives us to believe, and you want to call faith a condition/work; is that what I am to understand. How do you understand 1 Thessalonians 1:5, " For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sakes."
Whose power? Man's power or the power of God? Does not God give power to believe?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Of course. But equally noted, is what the flesh contains. Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 5:17.

We might be cognizant of our conditions of planting. 1 Cor. 15:42-46. But, the flesh can neither see NOR agree to any of those terms and conditions noted above. In fact, it is impossible.[/QUOT

Of course. But equally noted, is what the flesh contains. Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 5:17.

We might be cognizant of our conditions of planting. 1 Cor. 15:42-46. But, the flesh can neither see NOR agree to any of those terms and conditions noted above. In fact, it is impossible.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You do realize that the "old nature" has been rendered powerless?