101 biblical points; How the saved know they are secure in salvation

[smaller]

The Holy Spirit does no more than God did with Adam. I Pet 1:3-5 explicitly states that we are kept by the power of God THORUGH OUR FAITH. We are not kept by God without faith. Faith is a requirement of man, not God. No faith, no power of God. God does not keep our faith, that is our job, as it was Adam's job.He had a choice and so do we.

YOu think it is doubt because you hold the same as he that a one-time ascent of faith locks one in eternal relationship with Christ. There is no text in all of scripture that says this. It is a constant belief that we must maintain, not a one time "Yes" but a daily yes, year after year, so that we endure. There is no such thing as a past tense with our faith. If we lose faith, we shall lose salvation. Very logical and very scriptural.

Or the reverse, show me any text that says we shall be saved without faith?

One might do themselves well to understand what the 'evidence' of faith is:

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Many can not connect the dot on this evidence and instead relegate and link 'faith' to any number of alternative variables.

s

 

[Mitspa]

The Holy Spirit does no more than God did with Adam. I Pet 1:3-5 explicitly states that we are kept by the power of God THORUGH OUR FAITH. We are not kept by God without faith. Faith is a requirement of man, not God. No faith, no power of God. God does not keep our faith, that is our job, as it was Adam's job.He had a choice and so do we.

YOu think it is doubt because you hold the same as he that a one-time ascent of faith locks one in eternal relationship with Christ. There is no text in all of scripture that says this. It is a constant belief that we must maintain, not a one time "Yes" but a daily yes, year after year, so that we endure. There is no such thing as a past tense with our faith. If we lose faith, we shall lose salvation. Very logical and very scriptural.

Mat 11:11

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

You must be wrong again? Again I hear no one in doubt but you!

1Pe 1:5

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What do you think this "power" to be? and you seemed to have changed a word in your post? Why?:o

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

The Church up to the reformation did not allow people to have a bible. It was illegal. You could be killed by order of the church for having your own personal bible. During that time the the church had become so institutionalized, powerful and wealthy that it began to add all sorts of things that where no were in the bible. Its power had been built up over the centuries and relied on ignorance and superstition on the part of the populace. It had been indoctrinated into the people that they could only get to heaven via the church.

You should broaden your horizon. YOu are still fighting against the RCC. I/m not even speaking about the RCC, but the Orthodox.

By the 1500's the church in Europe had become a powerful money loving whore, that simply enslaved people. One of the best examples was Indulgences: These were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the head of the church which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven.

Again, you are speaking about the RCC. I'm speaking about the Church from which Rome split in 1054. It has existed, quite differently from Rome and was never impacted by either Rome or the Dark Ages, the Rennaisance and Enlightnement which were all very large contributors to western brand of Christianity.

Sola scriptura is Latin for "by scripture alone". It means that the bible contains all the knowledge necessary for anyone to know they are saved and how they are saved. In fact, it contains more than enough.

both the practice and the definition is purely a fabrication of the reformation. Such a practice did not exist outside of the west. The RCC, the Pope and Magistrate used the practice to introduce whole new doctrines, some you already mentioned, others would come since 1500.

I agree that most do not hold to this understanding that the bible holds all that is needed to know of God and salvation. When I say most people, I'm referring to the world.

Actually prior to 1500 that would be incorrect. Today, the actual practice is done only by protestants. Saying the Bible contains all, even the Bible never says this. But the real issue is not what is contained in scripture, but the personal assult that protestants have made upon the Bible to reconstruct in their own effort what it means. That is how the protestant milieu has generated thousands of views, untold number of new doctrines, ideas. Yet scripture only ever had one meaning.

If you want to in the majority of the world who do not hold to the idea that the bible is complete, and you want me to acknowledge that you are in that group of most people, then OK. You said it. You are in the majority. The statement you made that is most telling of the personal faith you have expressed is this one.

the Bible has been complete since it was Canonized. All Christians believe that the Bible is complete, no additional revelation will be added, which is why it is so easy to discern false teachings. They have never seen the light of day until that person explains it. But being complete is far different than saying it contains everything for faith and practice, or that man has the right to change the meaning of that scripture.

The statement has nothing to do with my faith. There are many agnostics, and atheists who can explain scripture as it was understood from the beginning, because they generally don't interpret scripture, but take the understanding that history provides.

During the cold war, many US high schools had a course on Communism which I taught. But I did not need to believe in communism in order to understand it, or teach it.

I have posted in this thread 101 points with Sola scriptura on how the saved are saved, and the security the saved have in their salvation by scripture alone. You said you don't have to believe it to understand it. So I guess your saying you understand it, but you just don't believe it.

exactly, I understand your position, even though I don't believe it. However, I also understand the historical meaning of scripture and that is what I believe. It has not changed in 2000 years and that speaks volumes about the power of the Holy Spirit to preserve His Gospel from the beginning.

I gave a refutation of your whole litney. NOt a single texts speaks of eternal security as you understand it. YOu have changed the meaning of the words, actually the tense of the words to support and errant interpretation. Some of the texts don't even address the topic since they address the Work of Christ on the Cross in the salvation of mankind. They are actually, those that apply, 101 texts that show eternal security does not exist in scripture.

 

[Cassian]

Mat 11:11

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

You must be wrong again? Again I hear no one in doubt but you!

1Pe 1:5

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What do you think this "power" to be? and you seemed to have changed a word in your post? Why?:o

and just how do these mean differently than I stated?

 

[Mitspa]

and just how do these mean differently than I stated?

Not ready to get into "who's" faith, but you did change the scripture. and It is His Power that keeps us

 

[Danus]

Saying the Bible contains all, even the Bible never says this.

The bible is incomplete you say? OK. That's your sentence up there in that quote, in it's entirety. Those are your words.

 

[Webb]

Hi Danus

I'd prefer that you select what you feel would be the most difficult of the 101 points on your list, then it could not be inferred that I chose something easy.

God bless

 

[Cassian]

Not ready to get into "who's" faith, but you did change the scripture. and It is His Power that keeps us

I'm glad you read well, but now put the rest of it in the text, THROUGH FAITH. Whose faith would that be? God's faith, God needs salvation?

 

[Cassian]

The bible is incomplete you say? OK. That's your sentence up there in that quote, in it's entirety. Those are your words.

Quote the text that says the Bible is all there is in faith and practice? Where is the text that says scripture is even sufficient?

 

[Mitspa]

I'm glad you read well, but now put the rest of it in the text, THROUGH FAITH. Whose faith would that be? God's faith, God needs salvation?

You know, let me be the one to say I dont understand everything!
Clearly there is a faith in the soulish realm of man, and there is a GIFT of faith that the Holy Spirit gives to some at times to do great deeds according to the Will of The Holy Spirit. It is also clear that as one walks in the Spirit, that faith is a fruit.


Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

So, whos faith? I have yet to get my mind around it all.

 

[Cassian]

You know, let me be the one to say I dont understand everything!
Clearly there is a faith in the soulish realm of man, and there is a GIFT of faith that the Holy Spirit gives to some at times to do great deeds according to the Will of The Holy Spirit. It is also clear that as one walks in the Spirit, that faith is a fruit.


Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

So, whos faith? I have yet to get my mind around it all.

It is your faith. The Spirit does not have faith. Does not need faith.We are the ones doing the gifts of the Spirit. Just as you can also do the vices, or passions which are of the devil. It does not mean that the devil is actually doing them, just that they the same fruits, just as the Spirit does not do the virtues, you do.
However, He does give grace to strengthen our faith, our love, our obedience, but it is always we doing them.

This is why the OP statement is false. Any believer can quench the Spirit. Any believer can decide NOT to follow the virtures and follow the sinful passions.

They are of God's/Spirit's will that we do them. Read the Beatitudes in Matt and it never says that the virtures are being done by the Spirit. They are requirments of every believer and as long as we believe, as long as we ask the Holy Spirit to remain, we have His Power. We lose faith, we lose the power.

 

[Mitspa]

It is your faith. The Spirit does not have faith. Does not need faith.We are the ones doing the gifts of the Spirit.

Yes a gift! The scripture is Clear.



Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Gal 5:25

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

1. The believer has everlasting or eternal life.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Eternal security was not found any any of the 101 points, it was added into each one.

Jn 5:24 heareth and believeth are present tense and as long as one maintains these present tense actions he shall not come into condemnation but if one quits hearing and believing he can come into condemnation. Eternal security provides the false security that one can quit hearing and following and still maintain salvation.

Jn 10:27 goes with v28 where v27 says those that qualify as a sheep of Christ have a present tense hearing and following and therefore cannot be snatched from God's hand as long as they maintain these present tense actions. But if one quits hearing and following he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ and removes himself from God's hand. With the first point refuted the other 100 fall like dominos.

 

[Danus]

Eternal security was not found any any of the 101 points, it was added into each one.

Jn 5:24 heareth and believeth are present tense and as long as one maintains these present tense actions he shall not come into condemnation but if one quits hearing and believing he can come into condemnation. Eternal security provides the false security that one can quit hearing and following and still maintain salvation.

Jn 10:27 goes with v28 where v27 says those that qualify as a sheep of Christ have a present tense hearing and following and therefore cannot be snatched from God's hand as long as they maintain these present tense actions. But if one quits hearing and following he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ and removes himself from God's hand. With the first point refuted the other 100 fall like dominos.

Thank you Bass. You're the first to really step up to the plate.

Just so you know how I laid the scriptures, and the points out, the scriptures are taken from the bible and clearly referenced. The points are my words in bold that explain the meaning of the scriptures I am using. On some I made two or three points using the same scripture because there are multiple points, but they are basically the same. So, in this sense the points I made do say we are secure in salvation. I clearly said that on several points.

Your point to the scripture is that Christ was saying the word "believe" in the present tense, and then your adding a false assumption to the meaning to say that if someone does not maintain this current belief situation then they are no longer saved. However, Christ does not say that at all.

In John 5:24 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. If Christ where saying what you think he's saying, He would not say "has eternal life", He'd say MAY have eternal life.

If Christ where saying what you think he's saying, He would not say "has eternal life".Here is how the scripture would look using your heretical understanding. Note I'm not going to reference this as the bible since it's wrong. I'm just rewording it the way you are reading it, which is totally wrong, but here we go. Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me MIGHT have eternal life and will possibly not be judged but Perhaps has crossed over from death to life.

Clearly Jesus did not say that those who believe might be saved, perhaps will be, or any other such word in place of the definitive WILL, HAS, or ARE. This plays into your misunderstanding of the qualification of who is Christ sheep, because you do not understand that the saved follow him BECAUSE we are His sheep. Again your using the idea that the word "believe" Implies a temporary situation, not understanding that it is the new nature of the believer in their salvation.

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

Your point to the scripture is that Christ was saying the word "believe" in the present tense, and then your adding a false assumption to the meaning to say that if someone does not maintain this current belief situation then they are no longer saved. However, Christ does not say that at all.

In John 5:24 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. If Christ where saying what you think he's saying, He would not say "has eternal life", He'd say MAY have eternal life.

YOu have created a strawman. Your statement does not even give it the meaning it actually has which is present tense. YOu need to eliminate the actual text and its present tense meaning to support your view.

the text is quite clear as is the rest of scripture. OUr salvation is only as secure as our immediate faith. We cannot guarnatee it, and God doesn't either because that was not the purpose of why we were even created, and why Christ saved us from death and sin, so man and God could get back into an eternal relationship. One freely made and maintained.

The view of eternal security actually denies the purpose of why God created man. It reduces man to something far less than an Image of God and even less than animals who at least operate by instinct. It makes man an object, a tool, to be manipulated, and even only particular men, making God a respector of persons.

 

[Danus]

Danus,



YOu have created a strawman. Your statement does not even give it the meaning it actually has which is present tense. YOu need to eliminate the actual text and its present tense meaning to support your view.

the text is quite clear as is the rest of scripture. OUr salvation is only as secure as our immediate faith. We cannot guarnatee it, and God doesn't either because that was not the purpose of why we were even created, and why Christ saved us from death and sin, so man and God could get back into an eternal relationship. One freely made and maintained.

The view of eternal security actually denies the purpose of why God created man. It reduces man to something far less than an Image of God and even less than animals who at least operate by instinct. It makes man an object, a tool, to be manipulated, and even only particular men, making God a respector of persons.

Before we go any further Let me educate you on what a "straw-man" argument is.

A straw-man argument is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (thus the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. So for me to create a straw man and argue it, lets say your position on biblical theology, I would first have to take your position and twist it into something it's not then argue that.

Your position, your view, your theology on salvation is that salvation is the personal responsibility of each individual upon hearing the gospel and deciding for themselves if they want to be saved or not. Further more, in order to keep that said salvation you yourself chose for yourself, it is up to you to make sure that you maintain it, or else you will loose it and no longer be saved. Your salvation is not secure because you may decide to simply walk away from it at any time.

Now is this your view or is this the straw-man argument you are saying I have created? Please let me know so that I can have an honest discussion with you about this topic.

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

Your position, your view, your theology on salvation is that salvation is the personal responsibility of each individual upon hearing the gospel and deciding for themselves if they want to be saved or not. Further more, in order to keep that said salvation you yourself chose for yourself, it is up to you to make sure that you maintain it, or else you will loose it and no longer be saved. Your salvation is not secure because you may decide to simply walk away from it at any time.

Incorrect. the middle part is your straw man. OUr decision to enter and to remain is all ours. But while we are IN Christ it is a mutual working out of our salvation between God and man. Man can leave the relationship because Christ is not the agent of our wills. We are. Christ cannot stop you from leaving because in His sovereign will He created us so that it was up to us, our will, our desire to be in a relationship with HIm.

The relationship itself is our salvation and in that we are greately assisted by the Holy Spirit with many things. However, those gifts are not given against our will or forced upon us. If it is all of God, then man cannot be judged. God would need to judge himself on how well He maintained our salvation. Salvation is not about entering into Christ. That is a only the beginning.

Most protestants, because they have adopted the erroneous view of the atonement, (satisfaction theory), assume that the Latin meaning of the word "justification" is a legal term and thus a judicious event in that by faith, God simply declares one "not guilty" and thus saved. It has never had that meaning. YOu need to go back to the Hebrew (tzaddiq) and Greek meaning of the word "dikaioma" which has a relational meaning, as being put into a correct relationship. It has the same meaning as reconcile. To be made righteous, means to be put into a correct relationship. That is what we do when we believe, repent, and are baptised. We enter into Christ, we are put into a correct relationship with HIm so that we now can work together toward our salvation.

Consequently all the erroneous views surrounding the root error that one is not only saved by faith, but faith alone, and then at a single moment in time and all the rest of our lives are just killing time, just biding time until we die.

OUr salvation is all about being perfected. It is all about working. It is a growing, maturing journey. We do not enter it and are saved. We have a start by entering thus any person can walk away from that relationship. We were created to be free, with an independent will, a rational soul. God is not interested in a person that is as wretched as the worst sinner, but simply declared not guilty. It is dung covered with snow. He wants the person to change, to become Christlike, to imitate Christ. It is a change of the inner man, to be conformed to His Image. To change the world, to become co-reconcilers with Christ. All of this depends solely upon man. If not, then God would simply have declared all men saved, since that is what He desires. But being saved is all up to man for which he will be judged. The work of salvation is a mutual affair, man cannot save himself alone, just as God cannot save man alone.

 

[Danus]

OK, well there is no straw man argument then Cass. I described your position, but I was a lot kinder to you in my description than you where of your own theology.

Fact: You believe that you can walk away from your salvation.

Fact: You believe that salvation is not by faith, but by works.

Fact: You believe that man decides on his own to be saved.

These are the facts of what you believe about salvation pulled right from your own description.

Your view speaks for itself. Thank you for your cantor.
While there have been some foggy explanations from you, most of what you have presented has been fairly honest and forth coming with your description of your belief and understanding of a faithless salvation. You've made refuting it easy, but what I'm saying to you is that what you have here about salvation is not totally correct to what the bible says, and is a misplaced understanding. You do not understand faith and what it means to have faith in salvation.

Danus,

Incorrect. the middle part is your straw man. OUr decision to enter and to remain is all ours. But while we are IN Christ it is a mutual working out of our salvation between God and man. Man can leave the relationship because Christ is not the agent of our wills. We are. Christ cannot stop you from leaving because in His sovereign will He created us so that it was up to us, our will, our desire to be in a relationship with HIm.

The relationship itself is our salvation and in that we are greately assisted by the Holy Spirit with many things. However, those gifts are not given against our will or forced upon us. If it is all of God, then man cannot be judged. God would need to judge himself on how well He maintained our salvation. Salvation is not about entering into Christ. That is a only the beginning.

Most protestants, because they have adopted the erroneous view of the atonement, (satisfaction theory), assume that the Latin meaning of the word "justification" is a legal term and thus a judicious event in that by faith, God simply declares one "not guilty" and thus saved. It has never had that meaning. YOu need to go back to the Hebrew (tzaddiq) and Greek meaning of the word "dikaioma" which has a relational meaning, as being put into a correct relationship. It has the same meaning as reconcile. To be made righteous, means to be put into a correct relationship. That is what we do when we believe, repent, and are baptised. We enter into Christ, we are put into a correct relationship with HIm so that we now can work together toward our salvation.

Consequently all the erroneous views surrounding the root error that one is not only saved by faith, but faith alone, and then at a single moment in time and all the rest of our lives are just killing time, just biding time until we die.

OUr salvation is all about being perfected. It is all about working. It is a growing, maturing journey. We do not enter it and are saved. We have a start by entering thus any person can walk away from that relationship. We were created to be free, with an independent will, a rational soul. God is not interested in a person that is as wretched as the worst sinner, but simply declared not guilty. It is dung covered with snow. He wants the person to change, to become Christlike, to imitate Christ. It is a change of the inner man, to be conformed to His Image. To change the world, to become co-reconcilers with Christ. All of this depends solely upon man. If not, then God would simply have declared all men saved, since that is what He desires. But being saved is all up to man for which he will be judged. The work of salvation is a mutual affair, man cannot save himself alone, just as God cannot save man alone.

Fact is, Faith in Christ, and Faith in Christ alone, saves. This is the word of God. He keeps us, and completes the work in us.

While it's easy to prove that this is what the bible says, it's impossible to prove it to those with out faith, because those with out faith can't possibly believe. They lack the one thing they need; FAITH,

The reason many get the idea from the bible that salvation is a cooperative effort with God, on their part, and that they can leave it at any time, is because they have a false faith. It is not a faith in the saving grace of Jesus Christ, but on their own ability to be good like Christ. Because they lack true faith from God they have to add to what the bible says because they don't trust it. They can't. They are too afraid to let go of their own will and truly surrender to Christ, and so, they cling to this idea that they are changing for the better to be worthy of something Christ has already done for them, It was no different in Christ time and it's no different for those people today, and if you believe you are saved by your works then you are still under the law. You are not free from the law, and you will receive justice by it.

I'll leave you with a few verses that speak to salvation/justification is by faith. You should read them, and try to think of them in the greater context of full faith. They are not difficult. There are no hidden messages. You don't need to know Greek or Hebrew or Laten because I have them here for you in English. They are simple to understand and anyone with Faith from God can relate to them with absolute ease. You're free to post what you believe. I may not be responding much more to your post, but I will read them, and I thank you for engaging me.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

 

[Cassian]

Danus,

Fact: You believe that you can walk away from your salvation.

I can walk away from a relationship which itself is the process of being saved. My salvation is not determined until my death, and offically at the judgement seat of Christ.

Fact: You believe that salvation is not by faith, but by works.

Incorrect again. Salvation is through faith. In all of scripture, faith cannot ever be separated from works. Which is why faith alone is a myth. Faith alone is a dead faith, meaningless.

Fact: You believe that man decides on his own to be saved.

Incorrect again. Man does decide but never on his own. God is constantly making the first initiative to save all men. The Holy Spirt works upon all men calling all to repentance. God created man with innate gifts by which he cannot fail to see God. Man must actively turn from God, must actively deny God to be lost. It is the work of God in you that you believe. But the believing is all up to you. YOu can accept or reject, and at any time.

While there have been some foggy explanations from you, most of what you have presented has been fairly honest and forth coming with your description of your belief and understanding of a faithless salvation.

I see we are still manufacturing strawmen.

You've made refuting it easy, but what I'm saying to you is that what you have here about salvation is not totally correct to what the bible says, and is a misplaced understanding. You do not understand faith and what it means to have faith in salvation.

I'm sure you sincerely believe that your opinion of a text is much better than the original teaching of the Holy Spirit. NOt only the original teaching, but the teaching of salvation that has never changed in 2000 years.

Fact is, Faith in Christ, and Faith in Christ alone, saves. This is the word of God. He keeps us, and completes the work in us.

I cannot disagree with the first part. But faith alone, or even by faith does not save. Christ does not complete the work in us absent of our cooperation. That is the whole purpose of our exitance, the whole purpose why Christ saved mankind from death, and why we enter into a mutual relationship.

Your veiw is really that man is but a tool, an object of God which God manipulates and then only some men to have an arrangement with Him called salvation.

The reason many get the idea from the bible that salvation is a cooperative effort with God, on their part, and that they can leave it at any time, is because they have a false faith.

I would say all Christians except the proponents of any variation of reformed faith have believed as I explained. Prior to the reformation such a view is unheard of. In fact, I have never found anyone who actually taught otherwise, in other words, there was not false teaching against the scriptural understanding of a synergistic, cooperative, mutual relationship. In fact you cannot find a text that supports your view without changing the meaning of words, and overriding scripture with the man made bias of reformed theology.

They are too afraid to let go of their own will and truly surrender to Christ, and so, they cling to this idea that they are changing for the better to be worthy of something Christ has already done for them,

As we have discussed before. YOur view of salvation actually does not include a relationship. YOu have man being saved from the Cross. You actually believe that Christ saved you, whatever that might mean and from what from the cross than by faith. i'm not eve sure faith has any real meaning in your theology, since it is mere theater, since a person was predestined to believe.

The fact is that Christ saved the world, all of mankind from the Cross. He overcame the fall. He did not save you unto a relationship, but so that you and God could enter into a relationship. What you do in that relationship has nothing to do with what Christ did not the CRoss for mankind. It is all about why God created you in the first place, and why Christ was needed to restore life to the world, an eternal existance, so that man and God could actually have eternal consequences from a mutual relationship.

Could you mention just what Christ did for you as opposed to all of mankind. How did Christ save you individually from the Cross?

It was no different in Christ time and it's no different for those people today, and if you believe you are saved by your works then you are still under the law. You are not free from the law, and you will receive justice by it.

a statement made in ignorance of the whole plan of salvation. The saving by works which Paul speaks about is the salvation Christ gave to all mankind. It is why Christ was needed. Doing the law perfectly would never give man eternal life. However, in our relationship with Christ, works are very essential. They are called works of righteousness. It is the typical confusion in protestant theology in not accepting the Gospel as it was given and then creating whole new doctrines and whole new forms of faith.

I'll leave you with a few verses that speak to salvation/justification is by faith.

Justification does not mean salvation. Justification means that we have entered into Christ by faith. It simply means that we believe that Christ saved us from death and sin. If that is all you have, then that is the very same thing the devil has as well.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

NOthing here even about justification. What we have here is that Christ so loved the world that He actually saved the world, John 4:42, I John 4:14, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, Heb 2:14, John 6:10 so that whosoever believeth on him should not perish. Again, the seeing, believing, following, are all in the present tense, active. There is no past tense here of faith. That you are being saved not just by faith, but a one-moment of faith.

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

again, that present tense active verb kills your whole theological premise. NOthing here about a guarantee of anyone faith, nothing about a one-time act of faith, or just past faith.

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

again, justification. Entrance into Christ is not salvation. It is the beginning of our salvation. To be saved one must be IN Christ, baptism enters one into Christ. But since it is a mutual relationship, man can leave at any time. He can stop believing, following, then those verses above mean nothing since he no longer believes, believeth, following, seeing.

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Yes, justified again, which is not salvation. One is justified by faith, but is saved through that same faith. One is not saved simply because he became justified by faith.

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

again justification. and this text uses the word "righteousness" as well, which means that justification by faith puts us in a favorable, or correct relationship with God. Nothing about being saved simply by being justified.

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

same meaning as above. Because Christ did all the work for our salvation from death, sin, the fall, all we need to do is believe that Christ so saved us, and we are justified, meaning, we enter into Christ in a correct relationship. Now the saving actually begins. Our salvation is a process, a working out, doing the work for which we as human beings were created to do. This is all the works that you don't want to do and think that the Holy Spirit is actually doing all of these works for you. These are the works on which you will be judged. I Cor 13:13 states faith, hope and love. The greatest is love. It is through love that all of our works are done. It is the greatest commandment which we have been commanded to keep. That takes work, perseverance and we do all of it with the Holy Spirit. We can quench the holy Spirit and then all is for naught because we do not have Christ.

Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

Justification again. NOthing about being saved simply because we are justified. It is the ONLY way we enter into Christ, faith, repentance, baptism.

Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

It is of faith, first because man could not save himself from the fall anyway. That is the grace. Christ would save all mankind, there would no longer be a distinction. All men would enter the relationship with Christ by faith because God desires that all men come to know Him and be joined with Him for an eternity.

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

again, shows your confusion between the salvation of Christ from the fall, which is all grace, not works. However, it is not even addressing the salvation of individuals, but only justification again.

Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

which Paul is reversing the language of the concept of works of the law cannot save us. Again, it is not addressing the salvation of a believer, only his justification, entrance into Christ by faith.

Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Justification again, NOthing about salvation through faith. Surely nothing of any kind of guarantee in any of these texts.

Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

When the law came, we all died. That is we now knew what sin was and knew that sin condemned us. It also aligns with Rom 11:32 in that death was the condemnation to ADam to all men through His nature, just so that God could show mercy, (salvation) from that death to all men through the Incarnation, the assumption of our fallen, mortal human nature.

Why, so that He could call all men back into an eternal relationship with Him. And we would enter that relationship by faith. But that does not constitute our salvation. OUr salvation is the journey we make with Christ becoming more Christlike, being conformed to His Image. Fullfilling the law of love.

Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

All men were saved by grace, vs 5 confirms that, and because all men were saved from death, we now can enter into a relationship with Christ which we do simply by believing He did in fact save us from death. But now comes the difficult part, vs 10, we were created and we were saved from death, so that by faith, we can enter into a relationship whereby we are saved through that faith doing the works which were also created for us.

Every single text you cited dealt with justification. NOthing either about being saved through faith, though implied in several. NOthing about any guarantee of faith. Nothing about being relationally saved in the past tense.

YOu have not even begun to refute what I have explained, so it was not so easy. YOu did a great job to show the error of the "satisfaction theory" of atonement. YOur view is based on the "declaration of not guilty" upon justification by faith thus finitely saved. A concept which is not in scripture, but can only be found in Anselm's theory superimposed on scripture. It actually contradicts your other basic premise which is predestination of a person to believe. None of that was found in these texts either. They all contradict the premise of this thread, that of "eternal security".

One can have self assurance, a form of security, if they know that are being faithful to Christ and His commands. That they take the test of faith to be sure they are still in Christ and still being saved, and working to endure to the end with God's help.