101 biblical points; How the saved know they are secure in salvation

[abide]

Sorry for the delay. Doing chores in between answering.

So your question is, how do I explain these verse in relation to salvation? humm, my first thought is do these verses suggest the saved are not saved? Matt. 24 is Jesus describing the end of the age. Matt: 25 is the parable of the 10 virgins and Rev 14 describes the Lamb and the 144,000. These are often related to end times discussions, which this is not, but you have worked it in to the discussion of salvation.

Do these verses say that the saved are not saved? No they don't. Matt 24:13 describes the nature of the saved to endure. Matt 25:10 is a parable of 10 virgins which there where some foolish ones who where not prepared. I guess the thought you may have is that those who are secure in their salvation are foolish and just do what they want. However, that's not the case.

No one says "hey your saved so party and sin", but for some reason that's the message to those who are not sure when it comes to this.

Knowing your salvation is to believe. Security in that knowledge of belief is by faith and a relationship with God.

I would say that those who do not know they are saved or can't know for sure are dealing with some sort of guilt they harbor about something in their past, or present that is keeping them from a relationship with God. I can't know what that might be.

Listen, I was a strong willful sinner who did not believe in God and never cared about it. I'll put my former willful sinful life against anyone's here. like the blind man, all I can say is that I was blind and now I see. I have no desire to go back to being blind.

I do not worry about loosing my salvation. I know where it is. It's in Christ and he's where he's always been even when I was far away from him. He's tested me plenty and will continue. I'm done. I've died. I only live in Christ.

As for the end times. I don't bother with that junk. I don't need to. can't wait if it to happens in my life time. I welcome it. I don't care if I'm killed this afternoon or 99 years from now. This life is not about me.

Would you say the word save would be similar to secure. Like a boat anchored and tied to the shore.

If a person knows the will of God and then turns away. My point is that there is ample evidence in the bible for not being too smug spriitually. Paul said, he that thinketh he stand take heed lest he fall. This would suggest that the possibility exists that even though one might be going good..HE CAN FALL. Since we are not perfect I would believe that this spiritual journey would continue until the end..this fight must continue..you are only secure or safe if you reach the end. If someone is saving you from drowning, they offer you a rope, you will only be saved..IF YOU HOLD ON to the rope and the person who is holding it. Anything can happen during the journey towards the shore, you can panic and cause problems. Of course Jesus is the Saviour and he will hold you, but you can decide not to hold on. Not sure if this is the right analogy. My mind still cannot comprehend once saved always saved.

 

[abide]

Well, we tend to judge others from the outside, on the surface. God judges the heart. Our new nature in salvation is a work in us that manifest itself to the surface in many ways. It does display in our character, but people also put on the character they want others to see.

So our new nature is not one that would be allowing our heart to agree with having an affair, but our old nature would. The old nature still resides in us, but we yield it to the new, and as we grow in Christ, we begin to see the world through His eyes and we yield more and more in faith which grows.

So, to make up a hypothetical situation where someone commits a sin or does not commit a sin and is judged for that alone, is to miss the point of salvation entirely. It's a question like, "have you told your mother you are a murderer", and telling someone they can only answer yes or no to the question. It's false dichotomy to being with.

We need to understand that sin is as much a part of who we are as an egg yoke is to a scrambled egg. Can you separate a scrambled egg? NO.

The saved are given a new nature, but the old is still there. Their new nature is in their heart with the old, but the old yields to the new. That's not to say that the old does not raise up at times, but it is put down by the new. You can slip in your willfulness to sin, but that does not mean your out of Grace if you are in God's Grace. The saved do not stay in a state of willful sin, but grow in their newness in their relationship with God, and his will for them.

That 's why it is not possible to place a legalistic standard on salvation to say if you do X then die you won't be saved, because X is a sin. We are all sinners anyway, and we can not judge the righteousness of others and compare ourselves in that way.

Grace, Mercy, and forgiveness are what the saved get. (period) Some are better than others by man's standard, but to say one is any more deserving than the other because of something in their character is to misunderstand what sin really is, and what God's message of Grace mercy and forgiveness is.

We need to understand that sin is as much a part of who we are as an egg yoke is to a scrambled egg. Can you separate a scrambled egg? NO.

Danus you are giving me brain fever now

 

[Danus]

Would you say the word save would be similar to secure. Like a boat anchored and tied to the shore.

If a person knows the will of God and then turns away. My point is that there is ample evidence in the bible for not being too smug spriitually. Paul said, he that thinketh he stand take heed lest he fall. This would suggest that the possibility exists that even though one might be going good..HE CAN FALL. Since we are not perfect I would believe that this spiritual journey would continue until the end..this fight must continue..you are only secure or safe if you reach the end. If someone is saving you from drowning, they offer you a rope, you will only be saved..IF YOU HOLD ON to the rope and the person who is holding it. Anything can happen during the journey towards the shore, you can panic and cause problems. Of course Jesus is the Saviour and he will hold you, but you can decide not to hold on. Not sure if this is the right analogy. My mind still cannot comprehend once saved always saved.

yes, he says in 1 Cor. 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! , but we need to be careful not to read the bible in bit's and pieces or we will end up with a bits and pieces understanding.

before 12 he says this. 1 Cor 10:1-11 1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.” 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

And then he says

12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! , 3 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

So Paul is not talking about one who is secure in salvation in Christ, but ones who think they are secure just because of who they are. The whole point of being saved is being saved from the judgment of God by placing faith in Christ, not in who you are or what you do to be good.

As for deciding not to want Jesus after being saved, I can't get my head around that. Personally I don't have that option, and maybe that's the difference.

I do want to be clear that I am not saying anyone is not saved. I don't know who is and who is not. All I do no is that I am....but let's suppose I'm not and i just think I am.

I know what My life was without Christ and I guess I could say I was not saved then. I know what my life is with Christ and so i can say I'm saved. But lets say I get to heaven and I'm told sorry I did not actually choose you. You just thought I did. All I could say is that I love Christ and i know I don't deserve salvation anyway, but ti will be good enough for me that I had a chance to know Christ in my life, if I'm to be condemned. I know the change in me is from God, not me. I know that can not do anything to be right. I'm surprised I've been as blessed as i have,

 

[Danus]

We need to understand that sin is as much a part of who we are as an egg yoke is to a scrambled egg. Can you separate a scrambled egg? NO.

Danus you are giving me brain fever now

Well It was a wrong question and i had to straighten it out. I realize not everyone sees the detail that I do. Listen, this is why Calvin developed what he thought was a simple way to explain the vastness of salvation, and that was just a tip of the ice burg. I think his TULIP points are the coolest things ever, but many are somewhat offended and frustrated by it because they don't fully understand it.

Personally I'd rather not type all this out, but it's the only way I can connect with others outside my area and it requires detail.

 

[BornAgain]

Well It was a wrong question and i had to straighten it out. I realize not everyone sees the detail that I do. Listen, this is why Calvin developed what he thought was a simple way to explain the vastness of salvation, and that was just a tip of the ice burg. I think his TULIP points are the coolest things ever, but many are somewhat offended and frustrated by it because they don't fully understand it.

Personally I'd rather not type all this out, but it's the only way I can connect with others outside my area and it requires detail.

Why do you believe in the Calvin doctrine?

 

[Danus]

Danus,

I read the first 2 sentences and the last 2 sentences. You are lost my friend...no! Absolutely no...how can you say you loved Christ and did noting do what he obeyed? Danus, read what you are posting.....

Well that's what happens when you only read a few sentences. You can easily misunderstand things when you don't read.

 

[BornAgain]

Well that's what happens when you only read a few sentences. You can easily misunderstand things when you don't read.

Why do you listen to a guy named Calvin rather than scripture?

 

[Danus]

Why do you believe in the Calvin doctrine?

I think we've entertained this enough. This thread is about the security of salvation and I have laid that out, yet few have really challenged it. I gave a ton of scripture and 101 points that no one seems to have the time or read.

If you want to know more about Calvin you can PM me with your questions or start a thread asking questions if you are trying to learn more. If not don't worry about it. Your not required to understand Calvin to be saved. He's just a theologian.

It's Sat night and I have a family to attend to. catch you later

 

[BornAgain]

I think we've entertained this enough. This thread is about the security of salvation and I have laid that out, yet few have really challenged it. I gave a ton of scripture and 101 points that no one seems to have the time or read.

If you want to know more about Calvin you can PM me with your questions or start a thread asking questions if you are trying to learn more. If not don't worry about it. You

r not required to understand Calvin to be saved. He's just a theologian.

Ok, fair enough...I am sorry you feel that way....do not feel that you need a theologian to save you.

 

[Webb]

Hi Danus

You say "few" have challenged your 101 points. I have, and have asked you to select the one you most feel cannot be answered and I would attend to it. I do not think it fair of you to shoot off dozens of passages and expect anyone to answer each one in detail, especially when you have not gone into any detail as to why you think they support your doctrine.

God bless, webb

 

[dadof10]

Touche. I'm sure you would know, but there are approximately 250 texts that either explicitly state, infer, or exhort one to keep the faith, otherwise one has lost salvation. Only two books in the NT do not address this fact.

Since we are being saved through our faith, even outside of anything theological or scriptural, it would be logical that if we lost faith, we would lose salvation.

I agree...

 

[Cassian]

Not really. People who know they are saved and are secure believe the Gospel. If you want to believe your not saved and can't know your saved and you want to call that the Gospel, go ahead. But the only difference is that I know 100% I'm saved and always will be, and you don't. You've said so. So what I believe of my salvation, has no bearing on what you believe it dose not effect you. And I don't require that you accept what I believe, just that you don't confuse the difference.

I think you are missing the point of having a theological or scriptual discussion. It really has nothing to do with our personal faith. It has to do with what scripture means. I don't need to believe in something in order to understand a meaning. The meaning of the Gospel of Christ is historical and has existed even before the NT was even written. Scripture is a witness to that revelation of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles.

The particular view you hold has never been a meaning of scripture for the first 1500 years of Christianity. Even now, with the advent of sola scriptura, most do not hold to this meaning of scripture.

You can believe what you will, many people believe a lot of things in scripture that are contradictory to scripture.

 

[Cassian]

I agree. I'm glad that's not an affliction I face, but I'm not so proud to think I can't be fooled as well. But, God never changes. He's always been where he's always been and a right relation ship with Him strengthens the faith he gives so that the tempter knows your virtually off limits.

Two points.

Did you explain that to either Satan or to Adam (Eve)?

Satan's most fruitfull field are christians. It is the only group he does not already have. He is fighting a serious war with God over your soul.

 

[Mitspa]

Two points.

Did you explain that to either Satan or to Adam (Eve)?

Satan's most fruitfull field are christians. It is the only group he does not already have. He is fighting a serious war with God over your soul.

Lets get this right? You think a fallen angel can do battle with the Almighty, and take something from Him that He said could never be taken from His Hand? NO! the battle is won for man, Christ has won the fight! All we need is to believe in His Victory! If some of you would spend half as much time learning to believe as you do finding reasons to doubt. You might become a help to others faith instead of "unsaving" yourself and others!


Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. :o

 

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

Lets get this right? You think a fallen angel can do battle with the Almighty, and take something from Him that He said could never be taken from His Hand? NO! the battle is won for man, Christ has won the fight! All we need is to believe in His Victory! If some of you would spend half as much time learning to believe as you do finding reasons to doubt. You might become a help to others faith instead of "unsaving" yourself and others!

Obviously you are reading from a different book called the Bible. Satan succeeded in deceiving Adam away from God's hand. Adam was in a personal relationship with God. YOu are in the very same relationship with God. It is not God letting go, but a human being rejecting God. God's love never fails. It will follow even those that reject Him right to hell.

Do you think that God hated some angels when He created them and that is why one rebelled and fell?

Man, all men, are created in His Image. All men were created to be eternally with Him. He does not desire any perish. If it was all up to Him, all individuals would be soul saved.

I say it that way because Christ did not save you personally from the Cross. He saved mankind from the fall, or particularlly from death and sin. He saved you as a human being, gave you an eternal existance, so that God could call all men back to the relationship that was lost in the Garden by Adam.

The ONLY fight Christ won was over death, satan and sin. Now it is up to you to believe that, which only justifies one, called justification by faith. This is not salvation, it is entrance into Christ's Body where your journey to salvation exists. We are free to leave that relationship as freely as Adam was free to leave. We have the same commandment as did Adam. What are you doing with those commandments, obligations of our existance and our relationship with Him. God in His Sovereign will did not determine it for you, but left that choice solely in your hands, for which you will be judged.

Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

YOu should heed the text. I just explained that above. Christ saved us from Egypt,(death) so that we could believe, if we don't we perish. It never says God believes for us, or Christ believed for us on the Cross.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,



Obviously you are reading from a different book called the Bible. Satan succeeded in deceiving Adam away from God's hand. Adam was in a personal relationship with God. YOu are in the very same relationship with God. It is not God letting go, but a human being rejecting God. God's love never fails. It will follow even those that reject Him right to hell.

Do you think that God hated some angels when He created them and that is why one rebelled and fell?

Man, all men, are created in His Image. All men were created to be eternally with Him. He does not desire any perish. If it was all up to Him, all individuals would be soul saved.

I say it that way because Christ did not save you personally from the Cross. He saved mankind from the fall, or particularlly from death and sin. He saved you as a human being, gave you an eternal existance, so that God could call all men back to the relationship that was lost in the Garden by Adam.

The ONLY fight Christ won was over death, satan and sin. Now it is up to you to believe that, which only justifies one, called justification by faith. This is not salvation, it is entrance into Christ's Body where your journey to salvation exists. We are free to leave that relationship as freely as Adam was free to leave. We have the same commandment as did Adam. What are you doing with those commandments, obligations of our existance and our relationship with Him. God in His Sovereign will did not determine it for you, but left that choice solely in your hands, for which you will be judged.



YOu should heed the text. I just explained that above. Christ saved us from Egypt,(death) so that we could believe, if we don't we perish. It never says God believes for us, or Christ believed for us on the Cross.

Adam never had the Spirit of The Risen Christ. He never had the had the Power of the Holy Spirit to keep him! Faith "believes" God can do that which He has promised! unbelief is trusting in mans ability to keep
himself.

I have heard nothing in Danus post that suggest in any way "unbelief" but yours seems full of doubt and double minded thought!:o

 

[Danus]

Hi Danus

You say "few" have challenged your 101 points. I have, and have asked you to select the one you most feel cannot be answered and I would attend to it. I do not think it fair of you to shoot off dozens of passages and expect anyone to answer each one in detail, especially when you have not gone into any detail as to why you think they support your doctrine.

God bless, webb

Well, you pick one then. . I don't have one of those points or scriptures that I feel is difficult to answer. So I don't know which one you would like to address. Read through them and let me know. I've yet to see a challenge to any of them, just a bunch of general comments and a few questions.

There are 101 biblical points and verses that say that God saves the saved, and the saved are secure in their salvation. No one has taken any of those points or verses and said otherwise.

 

[Danus]

I think you are missing the point of having a theological or scriptual discussion. It really has nothing to do with our personal faith. It has to do with what scripture means. I don't need to believe in something in order to understand a meaning. The meaning of the Gospel of Christ is historical and has existed even before the NT was even written. Scripture is a witness to that revelation of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles.

The particular view you hold has never been a meaning of scripture for the first 1500 years of Christianity. Even now, with the advent of sola scriptura, most do not hold to this meaning of scripture.

You can believe what you will, many people believe a lot of things in scripture that are contradictory to scripture.

The Church up to the reformation did not allow people to have a bible. It was illegal. You could be killed by order of the church for having your own personal bible. During that time the the church had become so institutionalized, powerful and wealthy that it began to add all sorts of things that where no were in the bible. Its power had been built up over the centuries and relied on ignorance and superstition on the part of the populace. It had been indoctrinated into the people that they could only get to heaven via the church.

By the 1500's the church in Europe had become a powerful money loving whore, that simply enslaved people. One of the best examples was Indulgences: These were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the head of the church which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven.

Basically if you knew that you had sinned you would wait until a pardoner was in your region selling an indulgence and purchase one as the head of the church, being God’s representative on Earth, would forgive your sins and you would be pardoned.

This industry was later expanded to allow people to buy an indulgence for a dead relative who might be in purgatory or Hell and relieve that relative of his sins. By doing this you would be seen by the Church of committing a Christian act and this would elevate your status in the eyes of God.

Sola scriptura is Latin for "by scripture alone". It means that the bible contains all the knowledge necessary for anyone to know they are saved and how they are saved. In fact, it contains more than enough.

I agree that most do not hold to this understanding that the bible holds all that is needed to know of God and salvation. When I say most people, I'm referring to the world.

If you want to in the majority of the world who do not hold to the idea that the bible is complete, and you want me to acknowledge that you are in that group of most people, then OK. You said it. You are in the majority. The statement you made that is most telling of the personal faith you have expressed is this one.

I don't need to believe in something in order to understand a meaning.

I have posted in this thread 101 points with Sola scriptura on how the saved are saved, and the security the saved have in their salvation by scripture alone. You said you don't have to believe it to understand it. So I guess your saying you understand it, but you just don't believe it.

 

[Cassian]

Adam never had the Spirit of The Risen Christ. He never had the had the Power of the Holy Spirit to keep him! Faith "believes" God can do that which He has promised! unbelief is trusting in mans ability to keep
himself.

I have heard nothing in Danus post that suggest in any way "unbelief" but yours seems full of doubt and double minded thought!:o

The Holy Spirit does no more than God did with Adam. I Pet 1:3-5 explicitly states that we are kept by the power of God THORUGH OUR FAITH. We are not kept by God without faith. Faith is a requirement of man, not God. No faith, no power of God. God does not keep our faith, that is our job, as it was Adam's job.He had a choice and so do we.

YOu think it is doubt because you hold the same as he that a one-time ascent of faith locks one in eternal relationship with Christ. There is no text in all of scripture that says this. It is a constant belief that we must maintain, not a one time "Yes" but a daily yes, year after year, so that we endure. There is no such thing as a past tense with our faith. If we lose faith, we shall lose salvation. Very logical and very scriptural.

Or the reverse, show me any text that says we shall be saved without faith?

 

[smaller]

Adam never had the Spirit of The Risen Christ. He never had the had the Power of the Holy Spirit to keep him! Faith "believes" God can do that which He has promised! unbelief is trusting in mans ability to keep himself.

I have heard nothing in Danus post that suggest in any way "unbelief" but yours seems full of doubt and double minded thought!:o

In order to make that claim one must divide God from Christ, which can not be done.

We do know this to be a fact from the New Testament about Adam:

Luke 3:38
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

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