12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

[JLB]

(Removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[Drew]

That is merely your opinion. Even unbelievers understand the concept of the soul separating from the body. James noted it in James 2:26. People refer to those who have died as having "passed away". Their body is present, but THEY have passed away. Or "dearly departed". Your view is (incorrect), imho. (Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)

It is not "merely my opinion". The concept of "death" is universally understood to denote the end of all life functions. When we say "the dog died", we do not intend our hearers to conclude that the dog's soul lives on and that only its body has died. As I have already pointed out, this idea of a soul that bears consciousness and can survive death is not a Hebrew concept, it is a Greek concept. I have shown that the author of Leviticus associates the soul with "blood", implying that the soul is certainly not the kind of thing that can be separated from the body. What is your response? On what grounds do you base you base your belief in a soul that can fly away fully alive from a dead body? And yes, many unbelievers also believe in this kind of soul. But this is only because our Western thinking was so deeply influenced by Greek thought. Did Greeks write the Bible? No, people from an entirely different culture wrote the Bible. And the term "passed away" is merely a soft way saying "died". The frequent use of this softer term does not change the fact that "death" generally denotes the end of life in all respects.

 

[Drew]

To claim that forever and ever is somehow a temporary condition, that somehow ceases rather than continuing without end, is (in my opinion a) (Edited, Obadiah) misrepresentation of God's word (Edited, ToS 2.4, "Respect where people are in their spiritual walk..." Obadiah)

Here is a text from the Old Testament

Isaiah 34:9-10
Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

This prophecy was fulfilled - Edom was indeed defeated.

Question: Is smoke rising from Edom today? No it is not. So we have clear Biblical precedent of the image of "forever" being used to denote a time interval that is, in fact, not really forever at all.

What is your response?

Was Edom not defeated after Isaiah wrote these words?

If "forever" really always mean "forever", why do we not see smoke rising from Edom today?

 

[reba]

Undecided me has a question for those who believe in internal torment
What is your definition, understanding etc..... of the word death

 

[Drew]

(Removed, response to removed sections of a post. Obadiah.)

 

[FreeGrace]

Then you don't agree with Thayer's 'definition' 1e for destroy in Matt 10:28. Those are his words.
Me either. That was my main point and question to you. I appreciate your answer. With a metaphorical eternal misery off the table we can work thru the "idle threat" take on the verse.

I don't believe the eternal misery is "metaphorical". I believe it is real, which we get a glimpse of with the rich man requesting lazarus to drop some water on his tongue. That isn't metaphorical imho.

I asked: "Once a person is given Eternal Life, can that person lose their Eternal Life?"
I agree and greatly appreciated your Eternal Life thread. I think you are spot on correct and made an excellent case there. However, if Eternal Life has a literal meaning, then so does "destroy" or for that matter "Second Death".

Again, the word can carry the meaning of eternal misery.

Here's why I originally asked you the Eternal Life question at the risk of it seeming off-topic to this thread:

Another one (the next one) of Thayer's 'definitions' and referenced verses thereof for apollumi is:

Romans 14:15 ... Do not destroy by your food that person for whom Christ died.
​

His 'definition' for "destroy" here reads:
Do not cause another to lose eternal salvation by your food….

Then he's dead wrong on that. There are no verses that clearly and unambiguously state that eternal life can be removed, lost, forfeited, etc, etc. The same for salvation. What God gives is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

How do you like his Greek scholarship now?

He's an arminian, obviously. And put his "spin" into certain texts.

(This does not address the issue.) (Edited, Obadiah) I used to think the same thing about this verse. (Edited, disingenuous. "Wondering out loud" about another's theology does not result in you typing it in this forum. Obadiah) The verse says much more than God is able to destroy the body/soul:

1. It says fear that He is able to do that. Which is why I feel justified in calling it a threat. And used to think, like you, it was just an attribute of God that He never demonstrates.

The fact that God is able doesn't mean that He has done or will do it. So you are NOT justified in thinking that He does or will do that. The point is to FEAR Him. That's the point.

2. Also I notice that He says man is able to kill the body (and men did kill these disciples) later. The verse comes in the middle (read the context) of a literal prophecy about what these disciples would be facing in the future. Literally, not metaphorically. "Killing" by men that hated their message about Christ. So why then command them to fear something that is not literally possible in the future?

I never said it was "not literally possible" for God to kill the soul. I said that Scripture never says that He did or will.

3. Jesus then uses the stronger word "destroy" to describe God's greater and more fearful abilities.

Of course He's able. I never said otherwise. But you are making a huge leap to claim that He does.

4. Why add "in Hell" to His statement if Jesus was simply stating an attribute of God?

Maybe Jesus agreed with Thayer's translation of apollumi as applied to being in hell.

5. (There's more but I'll stop with those 4 points, since it's Classic Rider 's 12 point thread)

Which of the 12 points do you disagree with?

I'm not going to dig back to find that post. If you have the # (why they are numbered), I'll take a look.

As for me, I am aware we are talking about future (last things) events. And God has not yet actualized His ability to destroy the body/soul of the lost in Hell just yet.

I'm still looking for any verse that says that He will.

Instead I read the words of Jesus about the "everlasting fire" in Matt 25:41 and John's words about "torment for ever and ever" in Rev 20:10. I don't think you have a legitimate point.

And I'm personally not dogmatic about what He will do with the lost in the future, either. I've spent the vast majority of my life believing and being taught ECT. But I'm also not ignorant of the fact that there is only one verse in the entire Bible that talks of Eternal Torture in Hell and it's not even talking about humans but rather The Devil and his angels.

But we know that humans will be thrown into the SAME LoF. Rev 20 says so.

The rest; "death", "destruction", "destroying", "consuming", etc.

But speaking of being dogmatic about the future fates of the lost (as compared to that of the saved), please look again at James 4:12:

James 4:12 There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. ​

Hmm?

Hmm what? Yes, God is able to destroy. In this context, James contrasts heaven and hell. Those in heaven are saved from hell. Those in hell are NOT saved.

Concerning the ability of God not being actually evidenced yet (just that He's able to do something) toward the lost you said:

"And while certainly [God] is able to destroy souls, there is NO evidence in Scripture that He ever has or will. "

James 4:12 says the same thing as Matt 10:28 does (minus the fear and Hell part),

God's able to ______

So how about applying your view toward God's abilities to the saved's fate in the same way you have to the lost's?

You keep missing the point. Being able and actually doing something are different.

[God] "who is able to save"

And while certainly [God] is able to save souls, there is NO evidence in Scripture that He ever has or will.

Of course there is evidence that He has, and keeps on doing it.

Doesn't sound right does it? Because it's not right.

None of your view sounds right.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's not difficult nor really "discernment" when the Scripture says "as good AS dead".

Yeah, it really does require discernment to understand the context of "dead" in each verse. Sometimes it refers to physical death, sometimes eternal death, once impotence, sometimes loss of fellowship. I've given the verses. It's up to you to look them up.

Dead means dead.

Sure does. Which one are you speaking of: physical, eternal, sexual, fellowship?

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus is saving us from the lake of fire, but those cast into the lake are annihilated, not preserved in a state of torment forever]

You haven't proven your case. Not even provided any substantial evidence.

Simply a matter of time - I plan to lay out my whole case if time permits.

You have the rest of your life.

 

[chessman]

(Removed, response to deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[reba]

most of the threads on this subject get closed... mostly they get closed because they go personal....

Let me suggest if another member 'goes personal' at you ... do not respond in kind... in that way we moderators can remove those on the personal attack leaving the thread intact...

We are all volunteer so gives us some time... or grace... thanks

 

[FreeGrace]

stop the personal jabs .... address the issue not the person reba

 

[th1b.taylor]

Undecided me has a question for those who believe in internal torment What is your definition, understanding etc..... of the word death

Good morning peoples. Hi Reba, great question, it's difficult to understand that this string has gone for over 200 posts without a solid grip on death being in everyone's grasp but that does look to be the case. The Second death is clearly stated as truth in Rev. 20:14 and this is certainly not the only verse in scripture concerning and defining that the Lost die both the Temporal Death (death of the body until the Final Resurection) and the Spiritual Death, the Eternal Suffering in the Abyss (a.k.a. the Lake of Fire).

Now, the different deaths are described or discussed from the first chapters of the Genesis through the Reveloation of Jesus, the Christ and when Jesus was here, in the first century AD He, being God in the Flesh of a man taught more on the truth of Hell than He ever did on the fact of Heaven... are we going to sin and call God a liar? Not I.

 

[reba]

th1b.taylor what i get from reading the above is dead is not dead like we generally use the word... seems to me you are saying what we call death is is not death dead but just waiting for internal torment.. which brings to mind ...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
what is perish
Strong's says this for parish
G622

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Please forgive if this reads argumentative it is not meant so..

 

[th1b.taylor]

It is not "merely my opinion". The concept of "death" is universally understood to denote the end of all life functions.

Drew,
You are personalizing this issue making it Subjective instead of Objective and every, reasonable, scientist knows better than to go there because science deals, simply, with what is and that what is is in the Natural Realm only. To define what is in the Spiritual Realm is defined by Scripture... All of it from beginning to the end.

Your drawing on a set of scripture drawn out of it's context and that is forbidden by God. It is also illogical because, yes, more or less, forty men penned the Books of the Bible but their inspiration is from the One Author, God. That means the Christian Bible is one book, of one context, from "In the beginning..." through the very last "Amen" of Rev. 22.

From this come my first rule of Hermeneutics, "No verse nor grouping of verses can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it.

 

[th1b.taylor]

th1b.taylor what i get from reading the above is dead is not dead like we generally use the word... seems to me you are saying what we call death is is not death dead but just waiting for internal torment.. which brings to mind ...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
what is perish
Strong's says this for parish
G622

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Please forgive if this reads argumentative it is not meant so..

No mam, no argument, just iron sharpening iron.

You did not have time to read my last post because we cross posted but the answer to this is expressed in my former post.

 

[th1b.taylor]

th1b.taylor what i get from reading the above is dead is not dead like we generally use the word... seems to me you are saying what we call death is is not death dead but just waiting for internal torment.. which brings to mind ...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
what is perish
Strong's says this for parish
G622

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Please forgive if this reads argumentative it is not meant so..

Just meditating and being spanked by the LORD, The Grave holds the corpse, where it rots and worms eat it and the soul of the Lost is in Hell awaiting the Great White Throne Judgement and the Souls of the Saved are in Heaven with God while our corpses are consumed until our resurrection, one thousand years earlier.

 

[reba]

i dont see the answer.. to what is parish to you

added: ok you slid the answer in thanks

 

[reba]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So every one has everlasting life for believers it is glorious for non believers it is 'hell'?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So every one has everlasting life for believers it is glorious for non believers it is 'hell'?

My take on this is God sends no one to Hell, that is a decision left to each and every one of us and that decision is made as we live out the Temporal Life here in what we have termed the Natural Realm. (There is a good Sunday School or Bible Study lesson.)

If, and there is that giant two letter word but, if we think we will escape the Wrath of the Judgement of the Righteous God by avoiding the study of the Bible we are being silly. When Adam sinned in the Garden he took one the Sin Nature. So many today name their sons Adam without, even, understanding what Adam is, Adam is man! Man sinned, period.

I need never blame the Father of all mankind because I was never required to sin but I did. Just as I look like my mother and father, so also I sinned like them. God has given every man the route to His Free Grace and if we miss that route, we are guilty of not seeking Him making the Default Judgement our own.

But on the matter of Extinction; We are made in the image of God, see Genesis 1. And we take that to mean we look like God but I ask, "Has anyone seen the Father and lived?" Of course not, God is Spirit! The image we reflect of the Father is our Spirit, the part only God can see.

Just as I ran toward death, often certain death, in Vietnam, so should the Christian. The Christian should never live their lives in fear of the death of the body only for after this Temporal life is Eternal Life. Fear, yes, the Lost man should, and while that is not the best reason to be in Church, it is a good start.

 

[chessman]

I'm not going to dig back to find that post. If you have the # (why they are numbered), I'll take a look.

it's the 12 points of the OP I referenced. You are only re-defining death into eternal misery (or merely God's attribute depending on what post I'm looking at) from the OP's point #1 so far. You mentioned Thayer's re-definition 1e for your justification of redefining "destroy" then backtracked on his metaphorical view it but accept the rest of it at times. Even though you think "destroy" is not really about what will occur in Hell since it's merely about God's ability and not about what will actually happen in Hell even though Matt 10:28a literally did occur. But there's 11 more points to the OP.

James contrasts heaven and hell.

no, in 4:12 James contrasts saved with destroy. Thayer contrast his view of salvation with his view of Hell by referring to James 4:12. And you don't even agree with either his view of saved or his view of Hell. Odd. James doesn't mention Heaven or Hell (or impotence) in Chapter 4.

Those in hell are NOT saved.

I know. James says it's either saved or destroyed.