1689 London Confession

[brightfame52]

Faith is NOT a benefit.
Faith is a gift from God.
It CANNOT be a work because Paul stated that if it's a work then it cannot be a gift.
Romans 11:6

You keep saying faith is a work.

Who's right?
You or Paul?

Faith is a work, when you make it a requirement you meet to get saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith is a work, when you make it a requirement you meet to get saved.

I don't know.
It seems like a simple enough concept.

What does Romans 11:6 mean?

Is it possible to be saved without faith?

Did you give yourself faith?

How did you get faith?

 

[GodsGrace]

Baptist Distinctives: Individual Soul Liberty​

Every individual, whether a believer or an unbeliever, has the freedom to choose what his conscience or soul dictates is right in the religious realm. Soul liberty asks the believer to accept responsibility for his own actions and not try to force anyone else to do or believe anything contrary to his own conscience. However, this liberty is not a justification for disobeying God. The believer must still act according to the principles of Scripture.

Individual soul liberty is a particularly Baptist principle. Most denominations attempt to exercise control over their members to some extent, but Baptists limit such control by demanding that every believer is ultimately responsible to God. Individuals have the right to disagree with others, follow their own conscience, and not feel compelled to adopt any views they disagree with. This does not suggest that every believer is a “lone wolf” or that believers need not submit to the leadership of their church. Soul liberty simply asserts that every believer has the right to act in accordance with his own conscience, and that no one can force anyone to believe or act against his theological viewpoint.

• John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?”
• Romans 14:5-12, 21 One indeed esteems a day above another day; and another esteems every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind. He who regards the day regards it to the Lord; and he not regarding the day, does not regard it to the Lord. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, does not eat to the Lord, and gives God thanks. For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For both if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. . . . But why do you judge your brother? Or also why do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ. . . . It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything by which your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak.
• Acts 15:39 And the contention was so sharp between [Paul and Barnabas], that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus.

[ie. I disagree with your interpretation - I believe that there are no 'faithless saints' as the Confession claims - but support your right to follow your conscience.]

Could you tell me where the confession states there are faithless saints? Otherwise we'll get to it eventually...

 

[atpollard]

I dont know what you talking about friend. You all over the place.

• I disagree with your opinion that faith is a work and, therefore, the Confession is in error.
• I am a baptist (like the Baptist Confession).
• One of the "distinctives" (things that makes a Baptist be a Baptist and not some other CREDOBAPTIST denomination) is called "Individual Soul Liberty" ... The belief that YOU need to follow YOUR conscience and I need to follow MY conscience.
• Given all of the above, I will not fight over your right to be wrong about FAITH and the Baptist Confession.

That's all I meant by post #357.

 

[GodsGrace]

• I disagree with your opinion that faith is a work and, therefore, the Confession is in error.
• I am a baptist (like the Baptist Confession).
• One of the "distinctives" (things that makes a Baptist be a Baptist and not some other CREDOBAPTIST denomination) is called "Individual Soul Liberty" ... The belief that YOU need to follow YOUR conscience and I need to follow MY conscience.
• Given all of the above, I will not fight over your right to be wrong about FAITH and the Baptist Confession.

That's all I meant by post #357.

Agreed.
Paul clearly states that faith cannot be a work.
Nothing much to debate.

 

[atpollard]

Could you tell me where the confession states there are faithless saints? Otherwise we'll get to it eventually...

It doesn't.

"Saint" = one who is saved
Confession states that "Faith" is a requirement of God for his Covenant:

Chapter 7, Paragraph 2, [in Modern English]

• Since humanity brought itself under the curse of the law by its fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace.2 In this covenant he freely offers to sinners life and salvation through Jesus Christ. On their part he requires faith in him, that they may be saved,3 and promises to give his Holy Spirit to all who are ordained to eternal life, to make them willing and able to believe.4

If, as brightfame52 suggests, FAITH is a work and NOT required for salvation, then one can be saved without FAITH (as a hypothetical possibility). A person that is both SAVED and has no FAITH, as was suggested possible, would be a "faithless saint".

I merely presented it as the alternative case if the Baptist Confession was wrong. The Baptist Confession states that God requires Faith of those He saves. I happen to also believe that God GIVES the faith that God requires, but that is another issue for another day.

 

[brightfame52]

atpollard

I disagree with your opinion that faith is a work

Thats okay.

 

[GodsGrace]

It doesn't.

"Saint" = one who is saved
Confession states that "Faith" is a requirement of God for his Covenant:

Chapter 7, Paragraph 2, [in Modern English]

• Since humanity brought itself under the curse of the law by its fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace.2 In this covenant he freely offers to sinners life and salvation through Jesus Christ. On their part he requires faith in him, that they may be saved,3 and promises to give his Holy Spirit to all who are ordained to eternal life, to make them willing and able to believe.4

If, as brightfame52 suggests, FAITH is a work and NOT required for salvation, then one can be saved without FAITH (as a hypothetical possibility). A person that is both SAVED and has no FAITH, as was suggested possible, would be a "faithless saint".

I merely presented it as the alternative case if the Baptist Confession was wrong. The Baptist Confession states that God requires Faith of those He saves. I happen to also believe that God GIVES the faith that God requires, but that is another issue for another day.

Agreed.
In fact I had never read about faithless saints anywhere in reformed writings.

Faith is a gift from God.

IF faith was a work, and we are the ones who do good works/deeds, then we would be able to save ourselves.

Which brightfame52 rails against.
So he's a bit confused, I'm afraid.

Maybe he's the Pelagian!
JK

God offers
Man accepts
God freely gifts faith and salvation

It's so clear in Eph 2,8...

 

[atpollard]

Agreed.
In fact I had never read about faithless saints anywhere in reformed writings.

Faith is a gift from God.

IF faith was a work, and we are the ones who do good works/deeds, then we would be able to save ourselves.

Which brightfame52 rails against.
So he's a bit confused, I'm afraid.

Maybe he's the Pelagian!
JK

God offers
Man accepts
God freely gifts faith and salvation

It's so clear in Eph 2,8...

You are a troublemaker, aren't you?

He is less "WRONG" than ADAMANT in his SOVEREIGN MONERGISM.
One must admire his conviction that we bring NOTHING to salvation (even God given faith).
It is really about the ORDO SALUTIS. I would argue that GOD gives Faith before GOD does the saving and brightfame52 would argue that GOD does the saving before God gives us Faith.

So "wrong" doesn't really enter into it. GOD is correct and WE (all) are just speculating.

 

[atpollard]

Agreed.
Paul clearly states that faith cannot be a work.
Nothing much to debate.

I never let the fact that there was nothing to debate stop me from debating. [Yes, I am a troublemaker, too.]

What about the "faith of demons" that James talks about ... is that a work?
The Pharisees that were called a "brood of vipers" had a faith that was all about works, right?

So there is a "Faith" that comes from fallen man and is "BAD" and a "Faith" that is a gift from GOD and is "GOOD" (as everything from God is good.) The trick is knowing which is which. As the "I never knew you" parable tells us, some people think they have one when they really have the other. (How is that for a bummer of a thought).

 

[GodsGrace]

You are a troublemaker, aren't you?

He is less "WRONG" than ADAMANT in his SOVEREIGN MONERGISM.
One must admire his conviction that we bring NOTHING to salvation (even God given faith).
It is really about the ORDO SALUTIS. I would argue that GOD gives Faith before GOD does the saving and brightfame52 would argue that GOD does the saving before God gives us Faith.

So "wrong" doesn't really enter into it. GOD is correct and WE (all) are just speculating.

Here's the problem A...
If 2 persons have totally opposing views, one must be wrong.

I agree with you re order salutis..
God gifts us faith and we become saved.

Faith is necessary for salvation so it makes no sense that we need to be saved first in order to be saved.

Eph 2,8 would read...
For it is by grace that you are saved through salvation....

We are, instead, saved through faith.

And yes.
I'm here to make trouble.
Keep you guys alert!

 

[atpollard]

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (traditional)
1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (modern English)

Of Christ the Mediator​

Chapter 8​

Paragraph 1​

It pleased God, in His eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, His only begotten Son, according to the covenant made between them both, to be the mediator between God and man;1 the prophet,2 priest,3 and king;4 head and savior of the church,5 the heir of all things,6 and judge of the world;7 unto whom He did from all eternity give a people to be His seed and to be by Him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.8

1 Isa. 42:1; 1 Pet. 1:19–20 2 Acts 3:22
3 Heb. 5:5–6
4 Ps. 2:6; Luke 1:33
5 Eph. 1:22–23
6 Heb. 1:2
7 Acts 17:31
8 Isa. 53:10; John 17:6; Rom. 8:30

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​

Paragraph 2​

The Son of God, the second person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal God, the brightness of the Father's glory, of one substance and equal with Him who made the world, who upholds and governs all things He has made, did, when the fullness of time was complete, take upon Him man's nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities of it,9 yet without sin;10 being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her: and the power of the Most High overshadowing her; and so was made of a woman of the tribe of Judah, of the seed of Abraham and David according to the Scriptures;11 so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion; which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.12

9 John 1:14; Gal. 4;4
10 Rom. 8:3; Heb. 2:14,16–17, 4:15
11 Matt. 1:22–23
12 Luke 1:27,31,35; Rom. 9:5; 1 Tim. 2:5

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Paragraph 3​

The Lord Jesus, in His human nature thus united to the divine, in the person of the Son, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure,13 having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge;14 in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell,15 to the end that being holy, harmless, undefiled,16 and full of grace and truth,17 He might be throughly furnished to execute the office of mediator and surety;18 which office He took not upon himself, but was thereunto called by His Father;19 who also put all power and judgement in His hand, and gave Him commandment to execute the same.20

13 Ps. 45:7; Acts 10:38; John 3:34
14 Col. 2:3
15 Col. 1:19
16 Heb. 7:26
17 John 1:14
18 Heb. 7:22
19 Heb. 5:5
20 John 5:22,27; Matt. 28:18; Acts 2:36

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Paragraph 4​

This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake,21 which that He might discharge He was made under the law,22 and did perfectly fulfill it, and underwent the punishment due to us, which we should have born and suffered,23 being made sin and a curse for us;24 enduring most grievous sorrows in His soul, and most painful sufferings in His body;25 was crucified, and died, and remained in the state of the dead, yet saw no corruption:26 on the third day He arose from the dead27 with the same body in which He suffered,28 with which He also ascended into heaven,29 and there sits at the right hand of His Father making intercession,30 and shall return to judge men and angels at the end of the world.31

21 Ps. 40:7–8; Heb. 10:5–10; John 10:18
22 Gal 4:4; Matt. 3:15
23 Gal. 3:13; Isa. 53:6; 1 Pet. 3:18
24 2 Cor. 5:21
25 Matt. 26:37,38; Luke 22:44; Matt. 27:46
26 Acts 13:37
27 1 Cor. 15:3–4
28 John 20:25,27
29 Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9–11
30 Rom. 8:34; Heb. 9:24
31 Acts 10:42; Rom. 14:9–10; Acts 1:11; 2 Pet. 2:4

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Paragraph 5​

The Lord Jesus, by His perfect obedience and sacrifice of Himself, which He through the eternal Spirit once offered up to God, has fully satisfied the justice of God,32 procured reconciliation, and purchased an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father has given unto Him.33

32 Heb. 9:14, 10:14; Rom. 3:25–26
32 John 17:2; Heb. 9:15

 

[atpollard]

​

Paragraph 6​

Although the price of redemption was not actually paid by Christ until after His incarnation, yet the virtue, efficacy, and benefit thereof were communicated to the elect in all ages, successively from the beginning of the world, in and by those promises, types, and sacrifices wherein He was revealed, and signified to be the seed which should bruise the serpent's head;34 and the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,35 being the same yesterday, and today and for ever.36

34 1 Cor. 4:10; Heb. 4:2; 1 Pet. 1:10–11
35 Rev. 13:8
36 Heb. 13:8

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Paragraph 7​

Christ, in the work of mediation, acts according to both natures, by each nature doing that which is proper to itself; yet by reason of the unity of the person, that which is proper to one nature is sometimes in Scripture, attributed to the person denominated by the other nature.37

37 John 3:13; Acts 20:28

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Paragraph 8​

To all those for whom Christ has obtained eternal redemption, He does certainly and effectually apply and communicate the same, making intercession for them;38 uniting them to Himself by His Spirit, revealing to them, in and by His Word, the mystery of salvation, persuading them to believe and obey,39 governing their hearts by His Word and Spirit,40 and overcoming all their enemies by His almighty power and wisdom,41 in such manner and ways as are most consonant to His wonderful and unsearchable dispensation; and all of free and absolute grace, without any condition foreseen in them to procure it.42

38 John 6:37, 10:15–16, 17:9; Rom. 5:10
39 John 17:6; Eph. 1:9; 1 John 5:20
40 Rom. 8:9,14
41 Ps. 110:1; 1 Cor. 15:25–26
42 John 3:8; Eph. 1:8

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Paragraph 9​

This office of mediator between God and man is proper only to Christ, who is the prophet, priest, and king of the church of God; and may not be either in whole, or any part thereof, transferred from Him to any other.43

43 1 Tim. 2:5

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Paragraph 10​

This number and order of offices is necessary; for in respect of our ignorance, we stand in need of His prophetical office;44 and in respect of our alienation from God, and imperfection of the best of our services, we need His priestly office to reconcile us and present us acceptable unto God;45 and in respect to our averseness and utter inability to return to God, and for our rescue and security from our spiritual adversaries, we need His kingly office to convince, subdue, draw, uphold, deliver, and preserve us to His heavenly kingdom.46

44 John 1:18
45 Col. 1:21; Gal. 5:17
46 John 16:8; Ps. 110:3; Luke 1:74–75

 

[GodsGrace]

I never let the fact that there was nothing to debate stop me from debating. [Yes, I am a troublemaker, too.]

What about the "faith of demons" that James talks about ... is that a work?
The Pharisees that were called a "brood of vipers" had a faith that was all about works, right?

So there is a "Faith" that comes from fallen man and is "BAD" and a "Faith" that is a gift from GOD and is "GOOD" (as everything from God is good.) The trick is knowing which is which. As the "I never knew you" parable tells us, some people think they have one when they really have the other. (How is that for a bummer of a thought).

LOL

What are we here for if not to debate.


I think you and I know the different types of faith.
The demons had faith, believed, God existed, of course. But they did not have faith IN God.
As to Matthew 7,23 those might have believed as the demons did, but they were lawless and were not Disciples of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Forgot the brood of vipers.
They taught works but without love for God and faith in Him.
The keeping of The Law.
The Law kills but the Spirit gives life.

Faith without works is a dead faith.
Works without faith are dead works.

 

[atpollard]

OK, this is a personal axe to grind that I have

Chapter 8 Parahraph 4 says:
"and did perfectly fulfill it, and underwent the punishment due to us, which we should have born and suffered,23"

offering THESE VERSES in support:

• Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
• Isa. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
• 1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So no commentary from me, just a question. Does this scripture actually SAY that:

• Jesus underwent the punishment due to us?
• We should have born and suffered it?

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, this is a personal axe to grind that I have

Chapter 8 Parahraph 4 says:
"and did perfectly fulfill it, and underwent the punishment due to us, which we should have born and suffered,23"

offering THESE VERSES in support:

• Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
• Isa. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
• 1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So no commentary from me, just a question. Does this scripture actually SAY that:

• Jesus underwent the punishment due to us?
• We should have born and suffered it?

Wish I was home.

The above would be the Penal SUBSTITUTION theory.

This theory was not a part of the early church because it's conveying the idea of a wrathful God that required sacrificial satisfaction. Unfortunately, it's an atonement theory that was born with the reformation.

I agree with you.
It's not so much that God wanted to PUNISH us for the fall, but that the disobedience to such an almighty God was so great that He could not have a rapport with such creatures as ourselves.
Could we say God was very hurt?

So we had to be Bought Back, redeemed from the evil one to whom Adam sold us. The Ransom Theory.

I also like the Cristus Victor Theory, Jesus as our example.

Why do YOU have a problem with this?

 

[GodsGrace]

I lied!
I don't really wish I was home.
On vacation.
Wish I had my computer.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, this is a personal axe to grind that I have

Chapter 8 Parahraph 4 says:
"and did perfectly fulfill it, and underwent the punishment due to us, which we should have born and suffered,23"

offering THESE VERSES in support:

• Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
• Isa. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
• 1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So no commentary from me, just a question. Does this scripture actually SAY that:

• Jesus underwent the punishment due to us?
• We should have born and suffered it?

PS
Galatians 3,13 is the only verse remotely supporting the Penal Sub theory but it's not really what it's saying.

It's talking about the curse of the law.
We are no longer under The Law.
Of Moses.
613 laws.
We are dead to the civil and ceremonial laws and must only follow the 10.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It CANNOT be a work because Paul stated that if it's a work then it cannot be a gift.
Romans 11:6

Faith is a work. A work is a physical or mental exertion to accomplish a purpose. With faith the exertion is mental and the purpose is salvation. Now to the apparent contradiction of Roman 11:6 that my statement presents.
If faith is a work how can it be a gift? The answer is simple, the work of faith is done by the Spirit that causes one to believe salvificly (regeneration/born again). Since the Spirit does the work that causes us to believe it is thus a gift as man does nothing but exercise the faith/gift he has been given. This is confirmed in John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent”. THis verse speaks of belief being a work of God.

brightfame52 never comprehends this concept and always says this is works salvation on man's part.

Faith is a work, when you make it a requirement you meet to get saved.

He doesn't understand the logic.

Bright's logic
Premise 1: Faith is a requirement of salvation
Conclusion: Man saved by his works
.. everyone know premise 1 is true but he comes to a faulty conclusion

This is the fix to his logic
Premise 1: Faith is a requirement of salvation
Premise 2: Faith is the work of God (John 6:29)
Conclusion: Man NOT saved by his work of faith; rather, he is saved by God's work/gift of causing you to believe

Bright will not get this ...seen him over and over and over again wrongly accuse people of works salvation.