GodsGrace
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You said THE HOLY SCRIPTURE AS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN.
My point is that we can't know what was originally written....
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1689 London Confession
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
My point is that we can't know what was originally written....
- May 4, 2020
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Well, the originally written books/letters of scripture are 100% accurate and so, when analyzing the Confession I made a slight adjustment as I see it.
Agreed, if you mean we can't know with 100% accuracy. One can be confident with, I'll make up a number ... 99% accuracy ... and the following verse (assuming it is accurate ... lol) Matt. 24:35
Reasoning:
- the following verse (assuming it is accurate ... lol) Matt. 24:35
- The fact that so many copies were made is reason to be confident we have something that is close to the original. Many copies means we can do comparisons to lessen the chances of accidental mistakes or tampering .... unlike the Quran which was made from memory and later the variant copies destroyed so that powers that be could have the version they wanted.
Textual variants in the New Testament
- In 2005, Bart D. Ehrman reported estimates from 200,000 to 400,000 New Testament variants based on 5,700 Greek and 10,000 Latin manuscripts, various other ancient translations, and quotations by the Church Fathers.
- There are approximately 180,000 words in the New Testament
- The vast majority of variants are of no significance i.e. spelling, etc
- There are no doctrinal discrepancies
- Mark 16:9-20 not found in older manuscripts (story of Mary Magdalene)
- John 5:4 only found in KJV, NKJV and NASB (my favorite)
- John 7:53-8:11 Passage omitted in the critical text. See Jesus and the woman taken in adultery
- Matthew 18:11 MT/TR: For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. CT: Verse omitted
- Mark 11:26 MT/TR: But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses. CT: Verse omitted (similar verse in Matthew 6:14-15)
- Romans 16:24 MT/TR: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. CT: Verse omitted
Textual variants in the New Testament - Wikipedia
- Jan 23, 2011
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Yes, if the devil didn't take away the word, they could have believed and be saved:
"Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Lk. 8:12 NKJ)
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Many verses appear to contradict each other, go to any Atheist website and you'll find a list. But the contradictions aren't real. One must act like "Sherlock Holmes" and find the situation where the data does NOT contradict:
For example, Paul says election is unconditional:
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)
Peter says election was conditioned on foreknowledge:
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:2 NKJ)
The analogy of two blind men, one holding the tail, the other the Trunk of an elephant, contradicting each other when asked to describe an elephant----applies.
The unseen "Elephant's Body": There are two versions of everyone existing today.
The first existed in the mind of God when He contemplated creating all things. It is unfallen, and its free will truly free of all delusion and slavery to sin. The unfallen versions consist of two groups, Children of God (who freely love God and His righteous laws), and the children of the Devil who freely choose evil. This version never came into existence, it remains solely in the Mind of God.
In order that God not lose any of His children He foreknew, He predestined their fallen versions to be conformed to His Son and be saved to the uttermost.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 NKJ)
God only "Foreknew" His children, in His Omniscience He already knows all things and both groups. He chose to ONLY foreknow His children, to experience them in a special way and not just "know" them intellectually. And God loved them even more. Therefore, He would not create if even one of these could be lost because of the Devil's deceit and the fallen realm's temptations. Highlighted text is the analogy I use to describe this. God's Children were "highlighted" so they were "known before" surrounding text.
The Second is the fallen version that exists now. Nothing we are or do in this fallen realm conditioned election.
Calvin and Arminius were like the blind men, they didn't see the "elephant's body" that reconciled the "contradiction":
What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News
What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...
endtimenews.net
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- Jan 23, 2011
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This should have its own thread. I certainly agree with it. Few realize today it was Athanasius, Eastern Orthodox who saved this doctrine from the Arminians.
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I can't agree. This really should have its own thread. Its logically impossible to say God predetermines all events, and then not hold Him responsible for everything that happens. That's the fallacy of equivocation, either He predetermines everything or He does not.
God knows all things via two methods: 1) He is Omniscient having infinite intellectual capacity; 2) all things exist in Him, past present future. He doesn't have to predestine events for them to occur as He permits for His own purposes.
In other words, nothing can be truly random to God of infinite intellectual capacity; God permits random events occur, but because everything exists in the infinite mind of God He can't be surprised by them.
It is Christ who gives all things concrete existence, as "the Word" (John 1:1-3) He "verbalizes" God's thoughts giving it "being, coherence". But His "providence" and "concurrence" means He is not the "first cause" of everything, for example "evil". Evil Beings do evil things, they are the first cause of evil. God providentially and via concurrence allows these things to exist for His own purposes, but the first cause of evil remains with the one who caused it.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:15-17 NKJ)
The analogy I think of is the movie "the Matrix" where Neo and crew did what they wanted in the Matrix, even though they and it were computer generated. In the computer and by its power the Matrix and all in it "consists", "held together." But the computer didn't cause Neo's actions or dictate his thoughts etc.
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The heavens declare God's glory in unmistakable terms, but not the name of Jesus. For that you need the Bible, so I agree with them:
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)
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None of those verses support the claim, and here is one that contradicts it and then seems to support it:
15 If anyone does attack you, it will not be my doing; whoever attacks you will surrender to you.
16 "See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc; (Isa. 54:15-16 NIV)
When someone is mugged, God didn't send the mugger. He didn't decree it.
But God does create the environment where free will choice becomes manifest. He fans the coals and forges the weapon, the destroyer to wreak havoc, but in neither case is He "first cause". The weapon and destroyer existed before He created the environment that permitted their full manifestation.
Pharaoh is a great example. Pharaoh hardened his own heart, AFTER God permitted his magicians duplicate the miracles God did. That deceived the Pharoah into believing he could resist God, which was what he wanted to do.
10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.
11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:
12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.
13 Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.
14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go. (Exod. 7:10-14 NIV)
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said. (Exod. 8:15 NKJ)
No "hardening energy" went from God to Pharaoh's heart. God orchestrated events so that Pharaoh's free will choice to resist God would occur in the time allotted to serve God's purposes:
16 "But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. (Exod. 9:16 NKJ)
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared (2675 καταρτίζω katartizo) for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:22-24 NKJ)
2675 καταρτίζω katartizo
Meaning: 1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete 1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair 1a1) to complete 1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust 1b1) to fit or frame for one's self, prepare 1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be.
"Fitted to destruction" KJV. Pharaoh was fitted, rendered, completed when his magicians gave him courage to do what his free will wanted, to resist God.
That results in his destruction, therefore KJV is right on.
Its their fault, not God's doing:
For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)
So when Paul says God made them blind, I understand God gets the credit because He didn't step in and make them see
Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day." (Rom. 11:8 NKJ)
Like the "strong delusion God will send", He is credited with sending it because He stopped restraining the Devil who energizes it, and it was a judgment against the apostates for deviating from God's Word of Truth for experiences that have no parallel in the New Testament:
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thess. 2:7-12 NKJ)
Paul contrasts those who follow their spiritual experiences and false prophets etc., to sola scriptura Christians who follow the tradition of the apostles (which became Scripture):
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work. (2 Thess. 2:13-17 NKJ)
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atpollard
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Job is a better example. Did God ever touch Job? No. Was God responsible as the “first cause” for all that befell Job? You becha. Satan was the TOOL guided by God to do to Job what God permitted and willed … not one iota more and not one iota less.
I, personally, prefer the example of Joseph (son of Jacob). God did not COMPEL the evil desires or actions in the heart of anyone that ‘harmed’ Joseph (his brothers, the wife, the prisoners) yet God set careful boundaries on what evil He would permit and what evil He would not permit (the brothers wanted to KILL Joseph, but were prevented from doing so and were only allowed to sell him into slavery). Throughout it all, the hand of God shaped Joseph for the work that God had prepared in advance for Joseph to walk in and, as Joseph concludes in the end “what you meant for evil, God meant for good”. God had a plan all along that God guided to the end that God had predetermined … with each creature acting according to its own will and in fulfillment of God’s plan.
Never in the story of Job or Joseph is God not “large and in charge”.
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I'm not sure what you are saying, perhaps its a typo. First cause would mean God caused Joseph's brothers to do what they did.
But concerning Job, this seems to be "a special case". Not sure his situation applies elsewhere.
I'm not "special pleading", Job is a "special case." The issue was "does God make mistakes? If He does, He is not God according to His own standards, and should permit the Devil and his fallen angels do what they want to."
That must be inferred from the text. I know at first read it sounds wrong.
God says there is no one like Job, blameless. Satan replies "you are wrong, Job has selfish motives for serving you"
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"
9 So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 "Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 "But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1:8-12 NKJ)
Satan said "You are wrong".
If God really was wrong, then He isn't God for according to His own standards, God uniquely doesn't make mistakes. He alone knows the future, perfectly:
9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, (Isa. 46:9-10 NKJ)
Selfishness was the iniquity Satan found in himself:
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. (Ezek. 28:14-15 NKJ)
Satan was deceived by "confirmation bias". He realized he served God for selfish motives, and confirmation bias skewed his judgment. He projected selfishness onto everyone and believed all serve God for selfish motives.
He thought proving God wrong was a "slam dunk". So he bet everything on the argument. Everything about Job chapter I is special. That was "the heavenly court" and they were there to hear Satan's argument against God.
Satan was able to convince a third of heaven's angels who must have realized their own selfish motives for serving God.
That was their plan. Prove God wrong, and He would recuse Himself, disqualify Himself as God.
He would do that, because God is true to His word.
God would have conceded He wasn't God, if Satan could prove his argument.
Hence, Job is tested so all the gathered angels could judge for themselves if God made a mistake about Job.
Job proved Satan wrong, he really was unlike anyone on earth suffering all that but never cursing God.
But Jesus proved unselfish love exists, beyond any doubt. God the Son "made Himself of no reputation", leaving all the privileges and prerogatives of God, because He loved the Father more than life itself and loved man with true unselfish love.
4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Phil. 2:4-11 NKJ)
AND the Father proved unselfish love exists, when He gave His only begotten Son the "apple of His eye" so all who believe in Him shall not perish.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, (Jn. 3:16 NKJ)
In effect, two witnesses proved unselfish love exists, and by two witnesses everything is established.
The incarnation of Christ so proved Satan wrong neither he or his demons can say "Jesus Christ came in the flesh", they choke on the words; the terror of the Lord makes them unable to think:
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1 Jn. 4:2-3 NKJ)
Origin of Satan and Demons | End Time News
Satan is the head of the demons and led their rebellion against God; he now leads them in propagating evil in the world. According to Scripture, Satan was a particularly powerful and high-ranking angel who led one third of the angelic host to rebel against God (Eph 2:2; Rev 12:1–12). Satan is a...
endtimenews.net
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atpollard
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Genesis 50:20 [NASB] "As for you, you meant evil against me, [but] God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to keep many people alive.
According to Joseph and scripture, whose plan was it for Joseph to go to Egypt?
Some things that would NOT have happened if Joseph had not gone to Egypt:
- The children of Jacob would not have been reconciled.
- There would have been massive death by starvation in the 7 year famine.
- The Tribe of Israel would not have moved to Egypt.
- The Nation of Israel would not have been enslaved in Egypt (no "slaves to sin" analogy).
- No Moses story (prefiguring "Christ as the Deliverer").
- No plagues culminating in the Passover (no "Last Supper" or "blood of the lamb").
- No Exodus story (no "wilderness vs Promised land" analogy; no 40 years/40 days testing lessons).
- No Moses lifting the bronze serpent on a staff story (referenced by Christ in John 3).
However, God did not need to make satan WANT to harm Job ... God merely needed to permit it. In the same way, God does not need to MAKE people do evil, God merely needs to permit it. In the story of Joseph, God would not permit them to kill Joseph, but God would permit them to sell Joseph. They provided their own malice and God provided merchants heading to Egypt at a convenient moment. In Romans 1, God does not FORCE anyone into reprobation, but God repeatedly allows them to follow THEIR DESIRES into deeper reprobation.
God restrains our evil desires ... or He does not. If He does not, they are still OUR evil desires born of OUR fallen nature.
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atpollard
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Context, context, context ...
Isaiah 54: [NIV]
1 “Afflicted city, lashed by storms and not comforted,
I will rebuild you with stones of turquoise,
your foundations with lapis lazuli.
12 I will make your battlements of rubies,
your gates of sparkling jewels,
and all your walls of precious stones.
13 All your children will be taught by the LORD,
and great will be their peace.
14 In righteousness you will be established:
Tyranny will be far from you;
you will have nothing to fear.
Terror will be far removed;
it will not come near you.
15 If anyone does attack you, it will not be my doing;
whoever attacks you will surrender to you.
16 “See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc;
17 no weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
and this is their vindication from me,”
This is ALL ABOUT God being in charge!
atpollard
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1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (traditional)
1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (modern English)
1 Heb. 1:3; Job 38:11; Isa. 46:10–11; Ps. 135:6
2 Matt. 10:29–31
3 Eph. 1; 11
4 Acts 2:23
5 Prov. 16:33
6 Gen. 8:22
7 Acts 27:31,44; Isa. 55:10–11 8 Hosea 1:7
9 Rom. 4:19–21
10 Dan. 3:27
11 Rom. 11:32–34; 2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Chron. 21:1
12 2 Kings 19:28; Ps. 76:10
13 Gen. 1:20; Isa. 10:6–7,12
14 Ps. 1, Ps. 21; 1 John 2:16
15 2 Chron. 32:25–26,31; 2 Cor. 12:7-9
16 Rom. 8:28
17 Rom. 1;24–26,28, 11:7–8
18 Deut. 29:4
19 Matt. 13:12
20 Deut. 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12–13
21 Ps. 81:11,12; 2 Thess. 2:10–12
22 Exod. 8:15,32; Isa. 6:9–10; 1 Pet. 2:7–8
23 1 Tim. 4:10; Amos 9:8–9; Isa. 43:3–5
[atpollard:]
Nothing too difficult ... just Free Will, First Cause, Divine Sovereignty and the Problem of Sin addressed in the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith.
(What is there in HERE that anyone might disagree with?)
1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (modern English)
Of Divine Providence
Chapter 5
Paragraph 1
God the good Creator of all things, in His infinite power and wisdom does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things,1 from the greatest even to the least,2 by His most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were created, according unto His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will; to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.31 Heb. 1:3; Job 38:11; Isa. 46:10–11; Ps. 135:6
2 Matt. 10:29–31
3 Eph. 1; 11
Paragraph 2
Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly;4 so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence;5 yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.64 Acts 2:23
5 Prov. 16:33
6 Gen. 8:22
Paragraph 3
God, in his ordinary providence makes use of means,7 yet is free to work without,8 above,9 and against them10 at His pleasure.7 Acts 27:31,44; Isa. 55:10–11 8 Hosea 1:7
9 Rom. 4:19–21
10 Dan. 3:27
Paragraph 4
The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in His providence, that His determinate counsel extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men;11 and that not by a bare permission, which also He most wisely and powerfully binds, and otherwise orders and governs,12 in a manifold dispensation to His most holy ends;13 yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceeds only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.1411 Rom. 11:32–34; 2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Chron. 21:1
12 2 Kings 19:28; Ps. 76:10
13 Gen. 1:20; Isa. 10:6–7,12
14 Ps. 1, Ps. 21; 1 John 2:16
Paragraph 5
The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does often times leave for a season His own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends.15 So that whatsoever befalls any of His elect is by His appointment, for His glory, and their good.1615 2 Chron. 32:25–26,31; 2 Cor. 12:7-9
16 Rom. 8:28
Paragraph 6
As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin does blind and harden;17 from them He not only withholds His grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts;18 but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had,19 and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;20 and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,21 whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God uses for the softening of others.2217 Rom. 1;24–26,28, 11:7–8
18 Deut. 29:4
19 Matt. 13:12
20 Deut. 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12–13
21 Ps. 81:11,12; 2 Thess. 2:10–12
22 Exod. 8:15,32; Isa. 6:9–10; 1 Pet. 2:7–8
Paragraph 7
As the providence of God does in general reach to all creatures, so after a more special manner it takes care of His church, and disposes of all things to the good thereof.2323 1 Tim. 4:10; Amos 9:8–9; Isa. 43:3–5
[atpollard:]
Nothing too difficult ... just Free Will, First Cause, Divine Sovereignty and the Problem of Sin addressed in the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith.
(What is there in HERE that anyone might disagree with?)
- Jan 23, 2011
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Everything you say is accurate, but I still dispute God is "first cause" of the evil the brothers did. And to prove that I will cite an excerpt of the Westminster Confession of Faith:
"As the Westminster Confession of Faith declares, God is the sole ultimate “First Cause” of all things (V/ii). With Calvin we must confess that God’s will “is, and rightly ought to be, the cause of all things that are.”30 But God is neither the author of sin nor the chargeable cause of sin. And we must insist upon this for three reasons. The first is simply this: The Bible teaches that “God is light; in him there is no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5) and that he tempts no one to sin (James 1:13). The second reason is this: While he certainly decreed all things, God decreed that all things would come to pass according to the nature of “second causes,” either (1) necessarily, as in the case of planets moving in their orbits, (2) freely, that is, voluntarily, with no violence being done to the will of the creature, or (3) contingently, that is, with due regard to the contingencies of future events, as in his informing David what Saul and the citizens of Keilah would do to him if David remained in the city of Keilah (1 Sam. 23:9–13). Therefore, whatever sinfulness ensues proceeds only from men and angels and not from God."-Reymond, R. L. (1998). A new systematic theology of the Christian faith (pp. 372–373). T. Nelson.
I think it elementary the very reasons cited for God not being the author of sin is proof God is not "first cause" of everything. Its impossible the God of light cause darkness. Its impossible the God who tempts no one to sin tempted to sin. Its impossible God is first cause when beings act freely, no violence done to their free will.
The statements made by the Confession are self-contradictions.
The "exceptions" are sophistry, equivocations. They defy "plain reason", violate Occam's Razor. No one on their own, left to ponder free will, deduces God is first cause of wrong choices. By Definition, Free Will doesn't have foreign causes of choices.
Sherlock Holmes would do better than Calvin or Arminius. Both reach logical conclusions they KNOW contradict parts of scripture, so they equivocate lest the logical conclusions refute their thesis.
All scripture is beneficial for doctrine, when details don't fit, you got something wrong.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)
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atpollard
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- #115
Fastfredy0
See, I come by my "wishy-washyness" honestly. Even the Baptist Confession places one foot firmly in each contradictory camp. "Of course God causes EVERYTHING" and "Of course God doesn't cause sin".
The problem is that both me and the confession are trying REALLY HARD to stick to scripture over LOGIC ... and LOGIC says it is EITHER/OR while Scripture appears to say BOTH are true. So one or the other (scripture or logic) must be rejected and both the Baptist Confession and I chose to embrace SCRIPTURE and acknowledge that it is "illogical" or "a mystery".
See, I come by my "wishy-washyness" honestly. Even the Baptist Confession places one foot firmly in each contradictory camp. "Of course God causes EVERYTHING" and "Of course God doesn't cause sin".
The problem is that both me and the confession are trying REALLY HARD to stick to scripture over LOGIC ... and LOGIC says it is EITHER/OR while Scripture appears to say BOTH are true. So one or the other (scripture or logic) must be rejected and both the Baptist Confession and I chose to embrace SCRIPTURE and acknowledge that it is "illogical" or "a mystery".
atpollard
Member
- Nov 30, 2016
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- Thread starter
- #116
It is YOU that claim that God is the first cause of the evil that the brothers did, not I.
I claim God is the FIRST CAUSE of JOSEPH being sold into slavery in Egypt. Was that ultimately an "evil act"? Joseph, Moses (the author) and God (who inspired scripture) say that Joseph being sold into slavery was part of God's plan for GOOD. I believe Joseph, Moses and God.
What I claim about the EVIL that the brothers did is twofold:
- God prohibited (restrained) the brothers from the evil of killing Joseph as they wanted.
- God permitted (allowed) the brothers to do the evil of selling Joseph into slavery as they wanted.
This is what both Scripture and the Baptist Confession affirm: God works ALL THINGS according to His will and God uses secondary causes to accomplish it.
- Jan 23, 2011
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Sorry, I misunderstood. But saying God is first cause of the good plan, doesn't carry over to the acts the brothers did, means YOU and I agree.
You don't really believe God is First Cause of everything as the confession says.
If you want to maintain you do follow the Confession, then you must prove your position isn't dependent upon equivocation fallacy.
Because right now you are creating "exceptions to the rule", and exceptions don't prove a rule, they disprove it.
Either God is the first cause of what the brothers did, or He is not.
And if "not", then you and I agree, and we both disagree with the confession.
brightfame52
Member
- Dec 3, 2020
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alfred p
I do, If God isnt the first cause of everything, then something or someone else shares in that distinction which leads to dualism
I do, If God isnt the first cause of everything, then something or someone else shares in that distinction which leads to dualism
- May 4, 2020
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Yeah, I was going to say something along the lines of: "Well, that's a mouthful".Nothing too difficult ... just Free Will, First Cause, Divine Sovereignty and the Problem of Sin addressed in the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith.
(What is there in HERE that anyone might disagree with?)
- May 4, 2020
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I admire your openness. We are dealing with the perpetual "thorn in Christians thigh", theodicies. R.C. Sproul was of our ilk, but never could explain it. The confession is man's systematic organization of God's communication to man and is fallible though its method of construction makes it less so than anything else I know of.See, I come by my "wishy-washyness" honestly. Even the Baptist Confession places one foot firmly in each contradictory camp. "Of course God causes EVERYTHING" and "Of course God doesn't cause sin".
The problem is that both me and the confession are trying REALLY HARD to stick to scripture over LOGIC ... and LOGIC says it is EITHER/OR while Scripture appears to say BOTH are true. So one or the other (scripture or logic) must be rejected and both the Baptist Confession and I chose to embrace SCRIPTURE and acknowledge that it is "illogical" or "a mystery".
Also, as I am reading along as you present the confession I sometimes want a definition of terms like: Define "Author of Sin"; maybe we assign an improper definition to what they meant.
Re: Logic and Scripture
hmmm ....1) Scripture rules, but depraved man's interpretation of Scripture is fallible
2) Logical - Reasoning or capable of reasoning in a clear and consistent manner. To be rational.
God could not be infinitely perfect without wisdom. A rational nature is better than an irrational nature. A man
is not a perfect man without reason; how can God without it be an infinitely perfect God? “Wisdom is the
most eminent of all virtues; all the other perfections of God without this, would be as a body without an eye,
a soul without understanding. Stephen Charnock
So, it may be that the two sources of knowledge as both infallible, but how we appropriate them is fallible. Example: they had the logical problem with evil.
Premise 1: God created all things
Premise 2: Evil is a thing
Conclusion: God created evil
If the premises are true then the conclusion must be true. But this contradicts scripture. In this case, the logic was based on a false premise. Guys (Augustine) smarter than us proposed:
First:
1) All things that God created are good;
2) evil is not good;
3) therefore, evil was not created by God.
Second:
1) God created everything;
2) God did not create evil;
3) therefore, evil is not a thing. ... and he goes on to prove that evil is not a thing, but a lack of a thing (righteousness)
Then there are two biblical places dealing with theodocies. Roman 9:19-21 and the story of Job. God does answer the question; he asserts His supremacy; end of story.
Well, "a mystery" is a pleasant,easy solution
but I can tell you dislike that option, you're too organized .. .lol... and I think we both subscribe to "let God be true, but every man a liar" ... God is perfect/supreme even if that makes us pond-scum (which we are)
.... any ways ... not like I know ... just theorizing ... maybe God gets 'ticked off' at us going into this area ... seemed to be 'ticked' with Job ... or maybe just giving little demonstration of His glory ... on the other hand He says to "study to show thyself approved" ... and meditate on Him ...
.... I'll send you something in private conversation to consider for what it's worth