1689 London Confession

[Fastfredy0]

As for texts saying God blinded etc., list them all in a separate post. Don't leave any of them out. I will, when I have time, treat them all one by one.

Oh, you're energetic .. .*giggle*
Hey, seriously, you don't have to exegete all my verses...I don't think you know what you got yourself into *smile*
A few of the verses say it's Satan doing the blinding. I say God caused Satan to do it; you say Satan does things independent of God.... you don't have to address those. The Confession calls them Second Causes; you call them First Causes even though that contradicts the Law of Causality
Again, I think it an unfair burden on you to exegete all these verses. I assume you will use the same logic for each one anyways.
Good luck. ..... ah, I mean may God's be the First Cause of your answer :yes
Aside: Darn list too long ... I have to delete some due to Forum size restrictions

God Hardens and Blinds Verses ( subset of many verses saying God control peoples (is the First Cause)

1. Exodus 4:21 I will harden his heart that he shall not let the people go … If it be asked, Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? the answer furnished by Scripture itself is, In order that God might show forth His power in him (Romans 9:17) Why did God select such a method of displaying His power? then the answer must be that being Sovereign God reserves to Himself the right to act as He pleases. Not only are we told that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh so that he would not let the Israelites go, but after God had plagued his land so severely that he reluctantly gave a qualified permission, and after that the first-born of all the Egyptians had been slain, and Israel had actually left the land of bondage, God told Moses, "And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get Me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten Me honor upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen" (Exodus 14:17-18)
2. Exodus 10:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants [making them determined and unresponsive], so that I may exhibit My signs [of divine power] among them
3. Exodus 34:23 Three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel. 24 For I will drive out and dispossess nations before you and enlarge your borders; nor shall any man covet (actively seek for himself) your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times a year.
4. Numbers 24:13 I could not do anything contrary to the command of the Lord either good or bad of my own heart. What the Lord speaks that I will speak
5. • Joshua 11:20 For it was the Lord’s intention to harden their hearts, so that they would engage Israel in battle, be completely destroyed without mercy, and be annihilated, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.
6. Samuel 2:25 If a man sins against another man, God can intercede for him, but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to their father, since the Lord intended to kill them.
7. 1 Kings 22:23 “You see, the Lord has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has pronounced disaster against you.”
8. Deuteronomy 2:30 "But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand"

1. Deuteronomy 28:63 Just as the Lord was glad to cause you to prosper and to multiply you, so He will also be glad to cause you to perish and to destroy you. You will be deported from the land you are entering to possess.
   1. Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his servants, and to all his land; 3 the great trials [of Pharaoh] which your eyes have seen, the signs and those great wonders. 4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart and mind to understand, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
   2. Joshua 11:18 Joshua had waged war a long time [at least five years] with all those kings. 19 Not a city made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites, the people of Gibeon; all the others they took in battle. 20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, that [Israel] might destroy them utterly, and that without favor and mercy, as the Lord commanded Moses.
   3. Psalm 105:25 He [God] turned their [the Egyptians] heart to hate His people [Israel], to deal subtly with His servants
   4. Psalm 141:4 Do not incline my heart to [consent to or tolerate] any evil thing, Or to practice deeds of wickedness

1. Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose—even the wicked for the day of disaster.
2. Proverbs 20:1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it whichever way He wishes.
3. Isaiah 63:17 O Lord, why have You made us [able] to err from Your ways and hardened our hearts to [reverential] fear of You? Return [to bless us] for Your servants’ sake, the tribes of Your heritage. [one of many examples of God’s sovereign will controlling the hearts of men]
4. Matthew 11:23 ... that You have hidden these things from the wise and clever and learned, and revealed them to babies [to the childish, untaught, and unskilled].
5. Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth [I openly and joyfully acknowledge Your great wisdom], that You have hidden these things [these spiritual truths] from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to infants [to new believers, to those seeking God’s will and purpose].
6. Matthew 11:27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
7. John 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their heart and being converted; otherwise, I [their God] would heal them.”

1. John 12:37 Even though He had done so many signs (attesting miracles) right before them, yet they still did not believe and failed to trust Him— 38 This was to fulfill what Isaiah the prophet said: “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm (the power) of the Lord been shown (unveiled, revealed)?” 39 Therefore they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their heart and being converted; otherwise, I [their God] would heal them.”
2. Acts 16:6,7 “Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, after they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.”
3. Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.
4. Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.

1. 2 Corinthians 3:14 But [in fact] their [Israel] minds were hardened [for they had lost the ability to understand]; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed [only] in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil [of blindness] lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns [in repentance and faith] to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

1. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them [unbelievers during the time of the anti-Christ] strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Gordon Clark writes, "The Arminians usually hold that God does not cause people to despise the truth nor does he purpose to condemn them for doing so. But this verse says, note carefully, that God plunges them into error in order that they shall be condemned.
2. Revelation 17:11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

1. Revelation 17:17 For God has put it in their hearts to carry out His purpose by agreeing together to surrender their kingdom to the beast, until the [prophetic] words of God will be fulfilled.

 

[Fastfredy0]

That is irrational. If God causes x, He is liable for the effects of x.

Oh, who is going to hold God liable? (liable - subject to undergoing or suffering something, especially something unpleasant). God does nothing wrong by definition. If He decides (causes) one nation to kill all the babies of another nation there is NO ONE TO HOLD HIM LIABLE (note: God ordered Israel to kill all the babies of a nation).
Whatever God does is good by definition. The issue with depraved men is that they hold God up to the standards set by God for men. God is transcendent. No one can hold God responsible (required to render account; answerable) for anything. God is the potter and we are the clay; some made to be adopted sons and some made to be the sons of Satan.
You have to stop applying human standards to God. God makes all the rules. God's rule for men do not apply to God.

As for Rom. 9:20, it doesn't say what you claim:

All I said was that when Paul speaks of God and evil Paul avoids a direct answer. Same thing with the Job situation.

God is dealing with sinful men, He uses them differently. God didn't make them sinful men.

Psalm 51:5 But I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. Gee, did we create ourselves when we are conceived.
Your statement contradicts Romans 11:32 32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike].

Like Pharaoh, God raised Him up to make His Name known, but Pharaoh chose to do evil. God orchestrated events so Pharaoh's free will choice would be made in the time allotted.

Well, the I put in BOLD is true, but it is only 1/2 the story. Pharaoh chose to do evil because God caused him to do so. You have to consider all of scripture. “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 14:4), and “the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt” (Exodus 14:8). I don't see how you can argue differently.
Note: This is a common mistake that does not address the issue of First Cause. People find a person who does X and because scripture does not go further into why a person did X they assume the person did it independent of God. If you want to prove that God had nothing to do with X you need to find a scripture saying a person did X and God had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Don't substitute your theories into a situation just because scripture doesn't attest the God was the First Cause everytime someone does something.

Aside: You keep using the term FREE WILL.... please define what you mean by it and give scripture supported your contention that man has Free Will as you define it. Like, if every time I found scripture that others disagreed with I would be laughed out of town if I said, well 'fairy dust' caused that situation. Now if I could define Fairy Dust and find it in scripture I would have a foundation for my belief. Show me your "Fairy Dust"; your "Free Will".

Christians have a discordant view of God. They know He is infinite, yet they treat His foreknowledge as though God is finite.

That is not my experience (not that I've done a statistical viable questionaire). Almost all Christians I've come across believe God know all things. Supposedly, Open Theists believe God doesn't know the future as that is impossible, but I've never come across and open theist. Anyways... this is tangental...

God doesn't need foreknowledge to know the future, He is Omniscient.
Foreknowledge to God, is a means of experiencing what He already knows, in a special way. God foreknew only His children whom He predestined, not the children of the Devil. That's why they aren't mentioned in Romans chapter 9. God's foreknowledge is like "highlighting text", it is "known before" the surrounding text because it seem elevated above it. But no new text is added, foreknowledge emphasizes something God already knows but wants to view from a different perspective. See Romans 11:2 "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew", foreknowing made it personal, He knew them before everyone else.

???
Sorry, I wasn't able to understand what you are saying.
I wanted to know how God knows all future events if He has not determined them beforehand.

Look up the doctrines of "Providence" and "Concurrence.

I know what these terms mean. I want to know how God can know what a person who has not been born yet will do if God is not the cause of what that non-existent person will do in the future.
Premise 1: From Nothing, Nothing comes
Premise 2: We were nothing at one time
Premise 3: God is all knowing (knows all future events)
Question: How did God know Joe would kill Suzy in 1939?

Aside: Hard to follow the conversation without direct quotes.

"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. (Jn. 3:15 NKJ)

It does not say, "whoever God selected"; It says, "whoever believes" = our choice.

I did not insert "whoever God selected" into the verse. On the other hand you inserted "our choice".
I will illustrate:
that whoever believes [via Free Will] in Him should not perish
"that whoever believes [due to God's selection] in Him should not perish
You can't be intellectually honest and insert 'causes' into a verse that God didn't put there. For the same reason I don't insert "God was the cause" into the verse even though that is my belief. Hermeneutic 101 ... use explicit verses to determine doctrine or validate implicit verses. I think if you leave your bias at the door you can see this is not a proof text for what you contend. (Aside: Yes, I have bias too *giggle*)

If Free Will is an illusion, and we are robots, how sad would that be if God wanted to share eternity with intelligent creatures who love Him for who He is?

*sobs* ... you haven't yet defined your understanding of Free Will or where you find it in the BIBLE. This term is foundational to your theology, yet you won't define it.
If we have Free Will (which you won't define so I have to guess what you mean) .... if we have Free Will then when it comes to salvation and our adoption as His son we make God a robot. He is under our control. In this situation the superior, perfect being's freedom, God's freedom, is subservient to creatures made of dust who were nothing at one time and now make God our puppet, under our control. The all powerful one is not ALL powerful after all, for we "pond-scum" have independent power of our own to commend the Omnipotent One.
How can the ALL WISE, eternal one have His purpose determined to some extent by "pond-scum"? (rhetorical question). I could go on ...

Prove it. Give us a verse saying X happened and God had nothing to do with it. Only ones I know are anthropomorphisms like God repented of this or that.
>In Him we live and breathe and have our being .... any other option is a support of dualism or deism.

"If anyone fiercely assails you it will not be from Me. (Isa. 54:15 NAU)

Hey, good and relevant answer .... Going to have to think on this one ... I can give many contradictory verses, but that would only be reason to be suspect of your verse and not proof.... hmmmm.... well, it bedtime ... I think I have an answer but it is not a simple one... gets into metaphysics which is not my specialty.... got to think on it

 

[atpollard]

Alfred Persson said:
God doesn't need foreknowledge to know the future, He is Omniscient.
Foreknowledge to God, is a means of experiencing what He already knows, in a special way. God foreknew only His children whom He predestined, not the children of the Devil. That's why they aren't mentioned in Romans chapter 9. God's foreknowledge is like "highlighting text", it is "known before" the surrounding text because it seem elevated above it. But no new text is added, foreknowledge emphasizes something God already knows but wants to view from a different perspective. See Romans 11:2 "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew", foreknowing made it personal, He knew them before everyone else.

???
Sorry, I wasn't able to understand what you are saying.
I wanted to know how God knows all future events if He has not determined them beforehand.

I think I understand Alfred Persson position on this enough to answer YOUR question. It is a matter of semantics (how one defines the terms). Let me answer using my own terms to express what I believe are his concepts:

Q. How does God know future events if He has not determined them before hand?

A. Omniscience. [Bad analogy to define omniscience: All of HISTORY is a movie that God has seen from beginning to end, so God knows EVERYTHING that is going to happen - omniscience - and God is now living inside that movie as it plays a second time. For us - the characters in the movie - everything happens sequentially, so we only know the past scenes in the movie. For God, every scene in the movie is known to Him. ... this is OMNISCIENCE.]

FOREKNOWLEDGE is different from OMNISCIENCE. [Back to my bad analogy: Within the Movie, God just decided to LIKE some of the characters 'just because' and God used His influence to make sure that their scenes made it into the final cut of the movie - FOREKNOWLEDGE is preferential treatment, not OMNISCIENCE.]

 

[atpollard]

I understand your position, but as I see a way to reconcile God knowing all, without Him causing all, I'll continue to disagree with the Confession on this.

You are in luck, I am a Particular (TULIP) Baptist. Therefore I believe, like all Baptists (Particular and General) in "Individual Soul Liberty" as one of the 5 Baptist Distinctives [things that make a person, a Baptist].

Individual Soul Liberty:​

"Definition: Every individual, whether a believer or an unbeliever, has the freedom to choose what his conscience or soul dictates is right in the religious realm. Soul liberty asks the believer to accept responsibility for his own actions and not try to force anyone else to do or believe anything contrary to his own conscience. However, this liberty is not a justification for disobeying God."​

So from my perspective, you keep disagreeing with the confession with my blessings for as long as your consciense and the Bible convince you of another truth. (Even as I continue to defend truth as I see it).

Romans 14:1-6 [NLT]

Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval. ​

​

In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.​

 

[Fastfredy0]

A. Omniscience. [Bad analogy to define omniscience: All of HISTORY is a movie that God has seen from beginning to end, so God knows EVERYTHING that is going to happen - omniscience - and God is now living inside that movie as it plays a second time. For us - the characters in the movie - everything happens sequentially, so we only know the past scenes in the movie. For God, every scene in the movie is known to Him. ... this is OMNISCIENCE.]

I can live with this analogy with one small exception. The movie will never played a second time. God wrote the script (decree) in eternity past and it is currently running for the first time as He created the scenes and the actors starting at the premiere 6000 years ago.

FOREKNOWLEDGE is preferential treatment, not OMNISCIENCE

That agrees with my definition ... Foreknowledge means: Whom God beforehand chose to love (favor). Foreknowledge is to be distinguished from “knowledge of future events”. Foreknowledge in God is that which He Himself purposes to bring to pass. In this way, from the smallest detail, under the determining decree of God events occur according to His sovereign purpose.
Seems Foreknowledge is a subset of Omniscience. Works for me

 

[Fastfredy0]

I said: Define Free Will as you use it. Again, if God does not control an action there was be another entity that does. What is the entity and who created it or is it eternal?

Your response:

I control my actions, you control yours ad infinitum. Look in the mirror for the nearest entity to you.

Again, I've asked you repeatedly .... DEFINE FREE WILL *sigh* ... at least tell my why you won't answer; after all, FREE WILL apparently is a major aspect of your theology so you must know what it means. DEFINE FREE WILL as you use it.

Your answer is illogical is it is circular reasoning ...
Self-determinism, as proposed by freewill, means one makes choices independent of God (I will define Free Will for you as you refuse to do so) and any other influence. But is logically impossible; it is a circular answer. If there is not a determining cause for the thought process, making a choice would be impossible. To be self-determined, one must be eternal and therefore uncaused. The determinative cause cannot be self-determined, without influence of past experience, state of mind or knowledge. Freewill contradicts this; it says you can reach up into the eternal realm and grab self-determination (uninfluenced). This is not possible. It contradicts the Law of Causality.
When one who supports the idea of Freewill or self-determinism is asked “why you did something he has no answer”. He will resort to a non-answer like “because I wanted to”. When asked why he wanted to he responses “because I choice to want to”; when asked why he choice to want to, he responses “because I wanted to choice to want to” … and on and on the circular reason goes.

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)

You keep proposing verses that portend to support Free Will, yet they do not.
Here's how you do it. It is simple.
1) Find a verse where someone does something (you're good at that part as shown above
2) Look for the cause of the action. If the verse says Joe did X and this was none of God's doing then you've found a Free Will verse. If the verse says Joe did X and this was of God's doing and someone else doing or caused by other external causes; then it is not Free Will
Looking at you example, again the reference does not indicate the cause.

 

[Fastfredy0]

He is not God's puppet. He rebelled against God and acts in his own interest. But it serves God's greater purpose the chaff be separated from the wheat, so they are easily gathered up and burned.

You submit no scriptural or logical proof, so I won't respond save to mention again the story of Job and Satan doing God's bidding.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Woohoo ... I've caught up ..... hand's football to atpollard ... your turn

 

[atpollard]

I can live with this analogy with one small exception. The movie will never played a second time. God wrote the script (decree) in eternity past and it is currently running for the first time as He created the scenes and the actors starting at the premiere 6000 years ago.

That works from our "Determinism" (God causes everything) perspective, but Alfred Persson and wondering approach it from more human autonomy POV ... so the "actors" get to "ad-lib their lines" to some extent.

 

[atpollard]

Woohoo ... I've caught up ..... hand's football to atpollard ... your turn

W00T! I'm in charge!

 

[GodsGrace]

That works from our "Determinism" (God causes everything) perspective, but Alfred Persson and wondering approach it from more human autonomy POV ... so the "actors" get to "ad-lib their lines" to some extent.

Ad lib is wrong.
God knows everything that is going on all around the universe.
There's nothing we say that He didn't already know.

There's just a difference between KNOWING something and CAUSING something.

Sad to say, I'm not caught up.
But I'm working on it!

 

[GodsGrace]

I can live with this analogy with one small exception. The movie will never played a second time. God wrote the script (decree) in eternity past and it is currently running for the first time as He created the scenes and the actors starting at the premiere 6000 years ago.



That agrees with my definition ... Foreknowledge means: Whom God beforehand chose to love (favor). Foreknowledge is to be distinguished from “knowledge of future events”. Foreknowledge in God is that which He Himself purposes to bring to pass. In this way, from the smallest detail, under the determining decree of God events occur according to His sovereign purpose.
Seems Foreknowledge is a subset of Omniscience. Works for me

FF
Foreknowledge and knowledge of future events is the same.

I'm NOT posting a definition!
But please learn....

 

[Fastfredy0]

W00T! I'm in charge!

No ... you're only Second Cause

You're only First Cause sometimes if you have Free Will

 

[GodsGrace]

I think I understand Alfred Persson position on this enough to answer YOUR question. It is a matter of semantics (how one defines the terms). Let me answer using my own terms to express what I believe are his concepts:

Q. How does God know future events if He has not determined them before hand?

A. Omniscience. [Bad analogy to define omniscience: All of HISTORY is a movie that God has seen from beginning to end, so God knows EVERYTHING that is going to happen - omniscience - and God is now living inside that movie as it plays a second time. For us - the characters in the movie - everything happens sequentially, so we only know the past scenes in the movie. For God, every scene in the movie is known to Him. ... this is OMNISCIENCE.]

FOREKNOWLEDGE is different from OMNISCIENCE. [Back to my bad analogy: Within the Movie, God just decided to LIKE some of the characters 'just because' and God used His influence to make sure that their scenes made it into the final cut of the movie - FOREKNOWLEDGE is preferential treatment, not OMNISCIENCE.]

Prescience means to know everything before it happens.

Omniscience means to know everything.

 

[GodsGrace]

No ... you're only Second Cause

But the Confessions say God is also the second cause.
Surely you must now this.
No time to look it up for you.
Go find it!

 

[Fastfredy0]

FF
Foreknowledge and knowledge of future events is the same.

I'm NOT posting a definition!
But please learn....

I agree with atpollard .. foreknowledge is a subset of knowledge and refers to persons.
Lot's of verses with foreknow or known and I believe they apply to people and not other things

The word “foreknowledge” is not found in the Old Testament. But “know” occurs there frequently. When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favor, denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. “I know thee by name” (Exodus 33:17). “Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you” (Deuteronomy 9:24). “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee” (Jeremiah 1:5). “They have made princes, and I knew it not” (Hosea 8:4). “You only have I known of all the families of the earth” (Amos 3:2). In these passages “knew” signifies either loved or appointed. In like manner, the word “know” is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. “Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). “I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine” (John 10:14). “If any man love God, the same is known of him” (1 Corinthians 8:3). “The Lord knoweth them that are His” (2 Titus 2:19).

The word “foreknowledge” as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form “to know.” If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that “foreknowledge” is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to “foreknow,” not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found:

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, “Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.” If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse, it will be seen that the Apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: “Him [Christ] being delivered by...”

The second occurrence is in Romans 8:29-30 “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called.” Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts, but the persons themselves, that are here in view.

“God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew”—(Romans 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2 “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.” Who are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father”? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the “strangers scattered,” i.e., the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But the Confessions say God is also the second cause.
Surely you must now this.
No time to look it up for you.
Go find it!

My guess is you got it wrong again.. it is irrelevant for my purposes

 

[atpollard]

Chapter 5, Paragraph 2:

"Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly (Acts 2:23); so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence (Proverbs 16:33); yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. (Genesis 8:22)"​

• Act 2:23 [YLT] 23 this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;
• Act 2:23 [NLT] 23 But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him.

• Proverbs 16:33 [YLT] 33 Into the centre is the lot cast, And from Jehovah [is] all its judgment!
• Proverbs 16:33 [NLT] 33 We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall.

• Genesis 8:22 [YLT] 22 during all days of the earth, seed-time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, do not cease.'
• Genesis 8:22 [NLT] 22 As long as the earth remains, there will be planting and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night."

The confession clearly supports its case that God is the CAUSE of all results from the scripture it chose to support its claim. One might engage in "yeah, but what about ..." and fight "scripture" with "scripture", but no amout of clever exegesis will reverse the plain meaning of Acts 2:23 (it was GOD's plan to kill Jesus) or Proverbs 16:33 (GOD determines the outcome of chance).

The choice of Genesis 8:22 is an interesting verse for "second causes". Much 'fuzzier' ground than God controlling things, but a fascinating BREATH of choices in a single verse.

• "as long as the earth remains" ... on the one hand, that sort of implies forever, but on the other hand, God created the earth, destroyed it with a Flood once, and promises to destroy it with Fire in the future. So less than FOREVER, and more like "for as long as GOD allows".
• "planting and harvest" ... the Farmer controls the planting, but no farmer ever made any plant grow. Then again, the farmer cannot plant on HIS SCHEDULE, but is a slave to the seasons and weather. So here is a SECOND CAUSE that appears to have some autonomy at first glance, but on closer examination is actually constrained by forces that control his autonomy without ever actually FORCING him to do anything. A very interesting picture of "free" SECONDARY CAUSES still controlled by God.
• "cold and heat" ... another interesting pair. We cannot control when a "front" moves through or the seasonal change from summer heat to winter cold ... yet does God need to exert ACTIVE CONTROL to move the earth around the sun or has God set forces and laws in motion that allow His creation to function "semi-autonimously". Not INDEPENDENT of God (who both created and sustains everything) but functioning automatically as He designed it to function. It CANNOT do other than as it was designed and created to do. [Is that a bit like fallen men and our free but fallen will?] And yet, men can build a fire (or an air conditioner) - thus we posses the Imageo Dei (image of God) and have a "spark" (pun intended) of what God has - the power to create. Not INDEPENDENT of God, but BECAUSE GOD BREATHED His breath (נְשָׁמָה/Spirit/Breath/Life) into us.
• "summer and winter" ... as discussed already: 100% NOT under our control, but just maybe, GOD ORDAINED and self-sustaining rather than requiring God's constant, active intervention. The universe fulfilling its divine purpose as an act of worship to its creator.
• "day and night" ... like heat/cold it is mostly NOT OURS, but that Imageo Dei let's us touch it on a smaller scale. Like the Seasons, perhaps the universe fulfilling its divine purpose as an act of worship to its creator.

So Genesis 8:22 was a VERY interesting choice of verses to discuss "Second Causes" (in my opinion).

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with atpollard .. foreknowledge is a subset of knowledge and refers to persons.
Lot's of verses with foreknow or known and I believe they apply to people and not other things

The word “foreknowledge” is not found in the Old Testament. But “know” occurs there frequently. When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favor, denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. “I know thee by name” (Exodus 33:17). “Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you” (Deuteronomy 9:24). “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee” (Jeremiah 1:5). “They have made princes, and I knew it not” (Hosea 8:4). “You only have I known of all the families of the earth” (Amos 3:2). In these passages “knew” signifies either loved or appointed. In like manner, the word “know” is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. “Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). “I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine” (John 10:14). “If any man love God, the same is known of him” (1 Corinthians 8:3). “The Lord knoweth them that are His” (2 Titus 2:19).

The word “foreknowledge” as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form “to know.” If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that “foreknowledge” is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to “foreknow,” not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found:

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, “Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.” If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse, it will be seen that the Apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: “Him [Christ] being delivered by...”

The second occurrence is in Romans 8:29-30 “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called.” Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts, but the persons themselves, that are here in view.

“God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew”—(Romans 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2 “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.” Who are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father”? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the “strangers scattered,” i.e., the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

You mean God doesn't know what's going to happen?

Did He tell the Israelites to fight the Caananites because they MIGHT win?

 

[GodsGrace]

Chapter 5, Paragraph 2:

"Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly (Acts 2:23); so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without His providence (Proverbs 16:33); yet by the same providence He ordered them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. (Genesis 8:22)"​

• Act 2:23 [YLT] 23 this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;
• Act 2:23 [NLT] 23 But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him.

• Proverbs 16:33 [YLT] 33 Into the centre is the lot cast, And from Jehovah [is] all its judgment!
• Proverbs 16:33 [NLT] 33 We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall.

• Genesis 8:22 [YLT] 22 during all days of the earth, seed-time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, do not cease.'
• Genesis 8:22 [NLT] 22 As long as the earth remains, there will be planting and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night."

The confession clearly supports its case that God is the CAUSE of all results from the scripture it chose to support its claim. One might engage in "yeah, but what about ..." and fight "scripture" with "scripture", but no amout of clever exegesis will reverse the plain meaning of Acts 2:23 (it was GOD's plan to kill Jesus) or Proverbs 16:33 (GOD determines the outcome of chance).

The choice of Genesis 8:22 is an interesting verse for "second causes". Much 'fuzzier' ground than God controlling things, but a fascinating BREATH of choices in a single verse.

• "as long as the earth remains" ... on the one hand, that sort of implies forever, but on the other hand, God created the earth, destroyed it with a Flood once, and promises to destroy it with Fire in the future. So less than FOREVER, and more like "for as long as GOD allows".
• "planting and harvest" ... the Farmer controls the planting, but no farmer ever made any plant grow. Then again, the farmer cannot plant on HIS SCHEDULE, but is a slave to the seasons and weather. So here is a SECOND CAUSE that appears to have some autonomy at first glance, but on closer examination is actually constrained by forces that control his autonomy without ever actually FORCING him to do anything. A very interesting picture of "free" SECONDARY CAUSES still controlled by God.
• "cold and heat" ... another interesting pair. We cannot control when a "front" moves through or the seasonal change from summer heat to winter cold ... yet does God need to exert ACTIVE CONTROL to move the earth around the sun or has God set forces and laws in motion that allow His creation to function "semi-autonimously". Not INDEPENDENT of God (who both created and sustains everything) but functioning automatically as He designed it to function. It CANNOT do other than as it was designed and created to do. [Is that a bit like fallen men and our free but fallen will?] And yet, men can build a fire (or an air conditioner) - thus we posses the Imageo Dei (image of God) and have a "spark" (pun intended) of what God has - the power to create. Not INDEPENDENT of God, but BECAUSE GOD BREATHED His breath (נְשָׁמָה/Spirit/Breath/Life) into us.
• "summer and winter" ... as discussed already: 100% NOT under our control, but just maybe, GOD ORDAINED and self-sustaining rather than requiring God's constant, active intervention. The universe fulfilling its divine purpose as an act of worship to its creator.
• "day and night" ... like heat/cold it is mostly NOT OURS, but that Imageo Dei let's us touch it on a smaller scale. Like the Seasons, perhaps the universe fulfilling its divine purpose as an act of worship to its creator.

So Genesis 8:22 was a VERY interesting choice of verses to discuss "Second Causes" (in my opinion).

God is in control of everything is different than God causing everything.
But Chapter 5.2 does state that God causes everything, first cause and second cause.

Fastfredy0 has been insisting that some things happen through a second cause, thus excusing God for evil acts.
Been telling him that I understand calvinism better than he does, but it seems he doesn't like me as much as he likes you. (he listens to you).

Re Jesus.
You won't get any argument from ANY Christian.
Jesus was supposed to die.
It was most definitely planned all along.
God used the appropriate means to bring it about at just the right time.

But I do wonder about this:
Why did Jesus have to be sacrificed under Calvinism?
Never been answered.

IF God decreed/predestinated even sinful acts,
then why was an atonement needed?

Why would God decree sinful acts and then have to pay Himself for them?
It makes no sense (as usual).

Asked Fastfredy0 this too, but no answer.
He's still trying to figure out what free will is.

'night.