1689 London Confession

[atpollard]

If you want to maintain you do follow the Confession, then you must prove your position isn't dependent upon equivocation fallacy.

Sorry, but my position, like that of scripture, is self-contradictory and does contain within it logical fallacies. The LUTHERANS, first identified this and embraced the term "MYSTERY" to describe that point where human reason fails piece TRUTH together any further.

It is well known that all analogies fall apart if pressed far enough. It is well known that all models fail to perfectly explain the reality they represent. Why should THEOLOGY be exempt and hubris think that our REASON and LOGIC can fully comprehend the incomprehensible infinite ... He told us His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. We must expect to reach our limits when we reach for understanding of His ultimate truths.

God IS the ultimate FIRST CAUSE of all things (because NOTHING can change God) and God DOES NOT compel men to perform evil acts [because God said so, and if God lies then we have MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS to worry about].

[As an aside, If you REALLY want to get into a discussion about GOD as the First Cause ... I recommend a conversation with Fastfredy0. He and I had an extended private chat where I attempted to argue against God as First Cause and got my clock cleaned a couple times by his refutations. The consequences of a god who is not in charge are scary stuff.]

 

[jasonc]

Intellectual versus actually being subject to God allowing evil upon you and you must survive .

You want to die ,see life as vain at times .

Start from that position and discuss .much of the above applies to me .

I'm not gonna denigrate victims of rape ,bodily harm .my experience is what the war did to me and how on my bad days life can be crappy

 

[Alfred Persson]

Sorry, but my position, like that of scripture, is self-contradictory and does contain within it logical fallacies. The LUTHERANS, first identified this and embraced the term "MYSTERY" to describe that point where human reason fails piece TRUTH together any further.

It is well known that all analogies fall apart if pressed far enough. It is well known that all models fail to perfectly explain the reality they represent. Why should THEOLOGY be exempt and hubris think that our REASON and LOGIC can fully comprehend the incomprehensible infinite ... He told us His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. We must expect to reach our limits when we reach for understanding of His ultimate truths.

God IS the ultimate FIRST CAUSE of all things (because NOTHING can change God) and God DOES NOT compel men to perform evil acts [because God said so, and if God lies then we have MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS to worry about].

[As an aside, If you REALLY want to get into a discussion about GOD as the First Cause ... I recommend a conversation with Fastfredy0. He and I had an extended private chat where I attempted to argue against God as First Cause and got my clock cleaned a couple times by his refutations. The consequences of a god who is not in charge are scary stuff.]

I understand your position, but as I see a way to reconcile God knowing all, without Him causing all, I'll continue to disagree with the Confession on this.

 

[atpollard]

Chapter 5, Paragraph 1 (part 1):
"God the good Creator of all things, in His infinite power and wisdom does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things,"1

• Hebrews 1:3 "who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"
• Job 38:11 "When I said, ‘This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!’"
• Isaiah 46:10–11 "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it."
• Psalm 135:6 "Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places."

God does control all things. First and foremost, the WORD OF GOD is unambiguous in its declarations - so scripture is either true or a lie. As a former atheist, that question is of no small importance to ME. The BIBLE is either a trustworthy source of information for one to know about God (and, thereby, to come to more deeply KNOW GOD) or it is a man-made fable (as worthless as Roman or Norse mythologies which were at least written by MY ancestors).

Second there is the evidence from the definition of God (His Omni- attributes leave no room for secondary causes acting on God and controlling the actions of God without diminishing Him to the status of a lesser god).

Third there is the empirical evidence. While what I have seen, heard, etc. is of no value to anyone else ... I cannot ignore what I know from my first-hand experience. My encounters were not with a God dependent upon me, but with a God upon whom I was completely dependent. HE is the POTTER and I am the CLAY - which irrefutably defines our respective roles.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Intellectual versus actually being subject to God allowing evil upon you and you must survive .

You want to die ,see life as vain at times .

Start from that position and discuss .much of the above applies to me .

I'm not gonna denigrate victims of rape ,bodily harm .my experience is what the war did to me and how on my bad days life can be crappy

If anyone does attack you, it will not be my doing; whoever attacks you will surrender to you (Isa. 54:15 NIV)

Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.' (Deut. 32:35 NKJ)

When God decided to create beings with free will, He knew some would choose evil, cause the fall, and evil would exist in the world. But if He didn't create, then those who freely chose to live with God eternally in love would not exist.

The universal theme of Christ's sermon on the mount is the big reversal that is coming:

1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him.
2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
12 "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matt. 5:1-12 NKJ)

Consider this analogy:

1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. (Jn. 9:1-3 NKJ)

God did not cause the man being born blind because of anyone's sin. It happens because we got kicked out of paradise, because of the fall. But there will be a time when all who suffer in this life, who love God, will experience the big reversal. Then the contrast of life without God, and paradise in Him will be clearly seen.


As for those who choose to do evil. God had to permit vessels of wrath who chose evil. Otherwise, those who love Him freely would not be born.

He would have to create robots, and that would be a sick parody of life in love and joy:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:22-24 NKJ)

 

[atpollard]

Intellectual versus actually being subject to God allowing evil upon you and you must survive .

You want to die ,see life as vain at times .

Start from that position and discuss .much of the above applies to me .

I'm not gonna denigrate victims of rape ,bodily harm .my experience is what the war did to me and how on my bad days life can be crappy

Honesty.

I don't remember exactly who it was, but some "famous Christian" once said: "You know, God, you would have more friends if you treated the ones you had better." That was a "been there, felt that" moment.

Personally, I don't think that God is bothered by honesty. I never saw the point in pretending that I didn't feel one way when I prayed to God ... as if God didn't already know EXACTLY what I felt and thought. So I chose to be honest and disrespectful rather than add hypocrisy to my many other sins. [When we get to the Judgement Seat, I'll let you know how that worked out.]

Here is a hint: Life sucks with or without God.
I was raised atheist and embraced "nihilism" as my philosophy to live by. Bad stuff happens with or without faith. Faith is what helps give you the strength to keep putting one foot in front of the other (and there are days, even as a Christian, when success is measured by living to see the next day.)

I remember a quote: "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up." - Thomas Edison. Christianity is like that - we keep on because we believe in the promise of hope. A dead man really got up, so ANYTHING is possible!

 

[jasonc]

Honesty.

I don't remember exactly who it was, but some "famous Christian" once said: "You know, God, you would have more friends if you treated the ones you had better." That was a "been there, felt that" moment.

Personally, I don't think that God is bothered by honesty. I never saw the point in pretending that I didn't feel one way when I prayed to God ... as if God didn't already know EXACTLY what I felt and thought. So I chose to be honest and disrespectful rather than add hypocrisy to my many other sins. [When we get to the Judgement Seat, I'll let you know how that worked out.]

Here is a hint: Life sucks with or without God.
I was raised atheist and embraced "nihilism" as my philosophy to live by. Bad stuff happens with or without faith. Faith is what helps give you the strength to keep putting one foot in front of the other (and there are days, even as a Christian, when success is measured by living to see the next day.)

I remember a quote: "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up." - Thomas Edison. Christianity is like that - we keep on because we believe in the promise of hope. A dead man really got up, so ANYTHING is possible!

Edison ,lol.you quote Edison the thief of many things other got working .

I posted that to show for some under a battle of things thruster upon them .loss of a family member ,victim of violence ,or In my case PTSD

I don't blame God but I do have anger over why I did I serve .men died for nothing .distrust of the govt I have my life too .

That can drive one to bitterness
In church on my days since most don't get my battle ,even if I know it's wrong the desire to isolate being the biggest is intense.i hate people .the vanity of things not necessarily sin but just the oblivious way those that don't know live.shallow.im not saying that all are that way just that vets learn to hide the pain and the battle .my bad days can have me in church and not actually there .

It helps by the time the It ends the edge of blunted.i just don't tell the elders.thr video I made on mcansh park .I was angered abs wanted to harm the source but prison wouldn't solve it.so I ranted away from the source for an hour then walked a mile or two making the video .I was still steaming making the video .

 

[Alfred Persson]

Intellectual versus actually being subject to God allowing evil upon you and you must survive .

You want to die ,see life as vain at times .

Start from that position and discuss .much of the above applies to me .

I'm not gonna denigrate victims of rape ,bodily harm .my experience is what the war did to me and how on my bad days life can be crappy

A clarification:

I have observed something else under the sun. The fastest runner doesn't always win the race, and the strongest warrior doesn't always win the battle. The wise sometimes go hungry, and the skillful are not necessarily wealthy. And those who are educated don't always lead successful lives. It is all decided by chance, by being in the right place at the right time. (Eccl. 9:11 NLT)

Consider this analogy:

1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. (Jn. 9:1-3 NKJ)

God did not cause the man being born blind.
God's creation follows natural laws, He doesn't cause tornados or earthquakes unless He has specific reasons for doing so. Most of the time, s...t happens and its not His doing.

God permits evil and injustice etc. to exist, because its what Adam and Eve chose, life in a fallen world out side of God's blessing.

But as Christ said, all the evil and injustice in the world will be repaid, by God. No injustice or evil will go unpunished, and no loss suffered because of the Fall will fail to be reversed, in His kingdom.


3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev. 15:3-4 NKJ)

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
7 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
(Rev. 21:3-7 NKJ)

 

[jasonc]

A clarification:

I have observed something else under the sun. The fastest runner doesn't always win the race, and the strongest warrior doesn't always win the battle. The wise sometimes go hungry, and the skillful are not necessarily wealthy. And those who are educated don't always lead successful lives. It is all decided by chance, by being in the right place at the right time. (Eccl. 9:11 NLT)

Consider this analogy:

1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. (Jn. 9:1-3 NKJ)

God did not cause the man being born blind.
God's creation follows natural laws, He doesn't cause tornados or earthquakes unless He has specific reasons for doing so. Most of the time, s...t happens and its not His doing.

God permits evil and injustice etc. to exist, because its what Adam and Eve chose, life in a fallen world out side of God's blessing.

But as Christ said, all the evil and injustice in the world will be repaid, by God. No injustice or evil will go unpunished, and no loss suffered because of the Fall will fail to be reversed, in His kingdom.


3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev. 15:3-4 NKJ)

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
7 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
(Rev. 21:3-7 NKJ)

I don't deny that .there is a rubber that meets the road where when

The loss of your father ,your father in law both saved ,fil on his death bed,leave you and you hurt .places or songs you can't see or listen too .
When I spoke about places they went to others I hear their voice as they told me or with my dad with him .it hurts because they are alive and active but now are gone .
This can lead or add to the depression .

That's a battle and if we are honest we all will have it winning ,feel defeat .we can choose to carry on but on the bad days that gets overwhelming.

With the idiot Biden withdrawing and the bad days I can't talk to non vets easily about it.especially if I see recruiting and know what they do.yet the battle of pride I did serve will fight the anger and drain me.

Add the stress of life .fights with my wife it will add to my battle as the depression and or anger is never gone just controlled .

Don't take my post as a rant against God just showing that to grasp the fact He let me live and allowed this and I must accept it isn't a pretty clean intellectual thing .it's more of I have the option to die or pick up the sword and move forward .denying the anger and the carnality of me as well ..

There is a Spiritual element to the PTSD .

 

[Fastfredy0]

Sorry, but my position, like that of scripture, is self-contradictory and does contain within it logical fallacies.

Wow ... high five for having the integrity to admit a potential short fall. I don't know if I lack that degree of integrity or I am not smart enough to acknowledge my short falls and that I am taken in by others that address my bias'. As I said, R.C. Sproul couldn't give a bullet proof theodicy ... and possibly no one can.

[As an aside, If you REALLY want to get into a discussion about GOD as the First Cause ... I recommend a conversation with @Fastfredy0. He and I had an extended private chat where I attempted to argue against God as First Cause and got my clock cleaned a couple times by his refutations. The consequences of a god who is not in charge are scary stuff.]

Gee, it's usually me that gets my clock cleaned by you. Thanks for being patient with me. I enjoy our discussions. Still want to get into Gal. 5:2-6 one day. *giggle*

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't deny that .there is a rubber that meets the road where when

The loss of your father ,your father in law both saved ,fil on his death bed,leave you and you hurt .places or songs you can't see or listen too .
When I spoke about places they went to others I hear their voice as they told me or with my dad with him .it hurts because they are alive and active but now are gone .
This can lead or add to the depression .

That's a battle and if we are honest we all will have it winning ,feel defeat .we can choose to carry on but on the bad days that gets overwhelming.

With the idiot Biden withdrawing and the bad days I can't talk to non vets easily about it.especially if I see recruiting and know what they do.yet the battle of pride I did serve will fight the anger and drain me.

Add the stress of life .fights with my wife it will add to my battle as the depression and or anger is never gone just controlled .

Don't take my post as a rant against God just showing that to grasp the fact He let me live and allowed this and I must accept it isn't a pretty clean intellectual thing .it's more of I have the option to die or pick up the sword and move forward .denying the anger and the carnality of me as well ..

There is a Spiritual element to the PTSD .

I'll pray for you:

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. (Heb. 12:1-3 NKJ)

 

[atpollard]

Edison ,lol.you quote Edison the thief of many things other got working .

Anyone that takes naps inside his roll top desk is OK in my book.

How about this one, instead ... "If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours." - Thoreau

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yes, if the devil didn't take away the word, they could have believed and be saved:

"Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Lk. 8:12 NKJ)

Aside: This would contradict the idea of "free will"; not that I am a "free will" proponent and one would have to give their definition of Free Will before I could further validate my statement.

.... anyways ... I agree with the statement but since the context of some of this discussion is First Cause I would clarify that the devil doing "x" or "y" is under the control of God. Like, I can say the hammer killed my friend and it would be truth but it would leave out the fact that I swung the hammer; that I was First Cause.
To be First Cause is to deny any effect upon the First Cause. The First Cause must be eternal (uncaused). To have multiple First Causes is to have more that one eternal entity ... dualism.

I can give 30+ verses saying God "blinded" or "hardened" heart of people (their will was determined by God)
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
Revelation 17:11
Revelation 17:17
Romans 11:32

 

[Alfred Persson]

Aside: This would contradict the idea of "free will"; not that I am a "free will" proponent and one would have to give their definition of Free Will before I could further validate my statement.

.... anyways ... I agree with the statement but since the context of some of this discussion is First Cause I would clarify that the devil doing "x" or "y" is under the control of God. Like, I can say the hammer killed my friend and it would be truth but it would leave out the fact that I swung the hammer; that I was First Cause.
To be First Cause is to deny any effect upon the First Cause. The First Cause must be eternal (uncaused). To have multiple First Causes is to have more that one eternal entity ... dualism.

I can give 30+ verses saying God "blinded" or "hardened" heart of people (their will was determined by God)
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
Revelation 17:11
Revelation 17:17
Romans 11:32

God permits the Devil tempt etc., because it serves His purpose to separate the wheat from the chaff during our lifespans.

But permission isn't direction. The Devil picks and chooses his victims without God's help.

As for the text I cited, it proves Satan can "telepathically argue against the gospel", it does not prove God caused it.

There is a big Grand Canyon gap between one thing and the other.

To illustrate, I was in Turkey and got into a cab and told him to take me to my ship. He pulled out and hit a kid on a bike. In Turkey they would blame me. So I fled the scene. Otherwise I might still be there. Was it my fault the driver didn't look both ways? No. I did say "drive me to my ship," I didn't say "run over kids on the way."

God is not first cause of what the Devil does. And none of your scriptures even remotely proves He is.

As for texts saying God blinded etc., list them all in a separate post. Don't leave any of them out. I will, when I have time, treat them all one by one.

To avoid confusion, copy paste the entire verse and use bold font or quote the precise wording you base your argument on.

Be sure to state precisely what you see in those verses. I can't read minds.

 

[Fastfredy0]

This really should have its own thread. Its logically impossible to say God predetermines all events, and then not hold Him responsible for everything that happens. That's the fallacy of equivocation, either He predetermines everything or He does not.

I think you have an equivocation issue.
Responsible definition: Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.

No one can hold God to account. He makes the rules and He assigns responsibility. He can even make rules that cannot possibly be attained like don't sin and then hold one responsible. For God to be "responsible" He would have to make a rule to do (or not do) X or Y and then break the rule He set for Himself.
The confession says God calls ALL THE SHOTS (Decree) and is the First Cause of ALL THE SHOTS. The confession never says God is responsible (Liable to be required to give account) for anything. Romans 9::20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

God knows all things via two methods: 1) He is Omniscient having infinite intellectual capacity; 2) all things exist in Him, past present future. He doesn't have to predestine events for them to occur as He permits for His own purposes. In other words, nothing can be truly random to God of infinite intellectual capacity; God permits random events occur, but because everything exists in the infinite mind of God He can't be surprised by them.

#1 is a capability, not a method
#2 ...not sure exactly what you're saying ... but if something happens that God did not cause; rather, He permitted it then that is espousing another force besides God that determines things (dualism). What is this force? Where did it come from or is it eternal like God and therefore a competitor?

It is Christ who gives all things concrete existence, as "the Word" (John 1:1-3)

This is a contradiction of your previous statement.
Premise 1:

Christ who gives all things concrete existence

Premise 2:

God permits random events occur

If God creates everything then He controls everything. There is nothing working by permission.
Acts 17:28; Colossians 1:17, etc

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

That's a minority opinion in this forum IMO. I agree.
You seem to be a Free Will proponent ... what is your definition of FREE WILL and do you have any scripture to support your definition?

When someone is mugged, God didn't send the mugger. He didn't decree it.

Prove it. Give us a verse saying X happened and God had nothing to do with it. Only ones I know are anthropomorphisms like God repented of this or that.
In Him we live and breathe and have our being .... any other option is a support of dualism or deism.

But God does create the environment where free will choice becomes manifest. He fans the coals and forges the weapon, the destroyer to wreak havoc, but in neither case is He "first cause". The weapon and destroyer existed before He created the environment that permitted their full manifestation.

Define Free Will as you use it. Again, if God does not control an action there was be another entity that does. What is the entity and who created it or is it eternal?

Pharaoh is a great example. Pharaoh hardened his own heart, AFTER God permitted his magicians duplicate the miracles God did. That deceived the Pharoah into believing he could resist God, which was what he wanted to do.

This is missing part of the story. The story of the exodus from Egypt repeatedly affirms that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh: God says, “I will harden his heart” (Exodus 4:21), “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 9:12), “the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 10:20, repeated in 10:27 and 11:10), “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 14:4), and “the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt” (Exodus 14:8). This is an example of concurrence (both divine and human agents can cause the same event at the same time).

No "hardening energy" went from God to Pharaoh's heart.

This contradicts scripture. See above.
This is common error. Just because something happens in the Bible and God doesn't say He was the First Cause people assume God didn't cause it. When it comes to the metaphysical cause you always eventually get to the initial cause, God. This is the Law of Causality; every effect has a cause.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But concerning Job, this seems to be "a special case". Not sure his situation applies elsewhere.

Sounds like the common explanation ... it's a mystery.
Satan is God's puppet to do with as God pleases. Satan is a created being; his will is created (determined) by God. An analogy would be that Satan is programmed by God.

Everything you say is accurate, but I still dispute God is "first cause" of the evil the brothers did. And to prove that I will cite an excerpt of the Westminster Confession of Faith: .... Therefore, whatever sinfulness ensues proceeds only from men and angels and not from God.

I agree with your analysis. The WCF is not infallible. R.C.Sproul, a huge proponent of the WCF and wrote a book on it ... he said something to the effect that he could not explain the WCFs contention and other facts that seemed to conflict with the WCF. I don't agree with the WCF's contention that God PERMITS sin; that is a false premise ... it's the contention of another entity being is the First Cause other than God.

I think it elementary the very reasons cited for God not being the author of sin is proof God is not "first cause" of everything. ... The statements made by the Confession are self-contradictions.

Agreed....
WCF
Premise 1: God is First Cause of all things
Premise 2: God is NOT the Author of Sin
Premise 2: God permits some things
Conclusion: Contradiction ... the things God PERMITS were caused by something/someone else so we have a faulty premise(s) can't be correct. Which one(s)?

By Definition, Free Will doesn't have foreign causes of choices.

You haven't defined FREE WILL so I can't comment or given biblical proof of same

Sherlock Holmes would do better than Calvin or Arminius. Both reach logical conclusions they KNOW contradict parts of scripture, so they equivocate lest the logical conclusions refute their thesis.

Hmmm ... I believe Calvin offered a solution to the contradiction.... but it's what the Bible says that matters; Calvin is often a convenient guide.

Either God is the first cause of what the[Joseph's] brothers did, or He is not.

And if "not", then you and I agree, and we both disagree with the confession.

I agree with you. The confession got something wrong here. We may not agree upon exactly which part.

 

[Alfred Persson]

.

>Alfred Persson said:

>This really should have its own thread. Its logically impossible to say God predetermines all events, and then not hold Him responsible for everything that happens. That's the fallacy of equivocation, either He predetermines everything or He does not.



>I think you have an equivocation issue.

>Responsible definition: Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.

>

>No one can hold God to account. He makes the rules and He assigns responsibility. He can even make rules that cannot possibly be attained like don't sin and then hold one responsible. For God to be "responsible" He would have to make a rule to do (or not do) X or Y and then break the rule He set for Himself.

>The confession says God calls ALL THE SHOTS (Decree) and is the First Cause of ALL THE SHOTS. The confession never says God is responsible (Liable to be required to give account) for anything. Romans 9::20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”



That is irrational. If God causes x, He is liable for the effects of x.

As for Rom. 9:20, it doesn't say what you claim:

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, (Rom. 9:20-23 NKJ)

God is dealing with sinful men, He uses them differently. God didn't make them sinful men. Like Pharaoh, God raised Him up to make His Name known, but Pharaoh chose to do evil. God orchestrated events so Pharaoh's free will choice would be made in the time allotted.

Otherwise, he would be too cowardly, no telling how long it would take for him to manifest his evil.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said. (Exod. 8:15 NKJ)


>Alfred Persson said:
>God knows all things via two methods: 1) He is Omniscient having infinite intellectual capacity; 2) all things exist in Him, past present future. He doesn't have to predestine events for them to occur as He permits for His own purposes. In other words, nothing can be truly random to God of infinite intellectual capacity; God permits random events occur, but because everything exists in the infinite mind of God He can't be surprised by them.

>#1 is a capability, not a method
>#2 ...not sure exactly what you're saying ... but if something happens that God did not cause; rather, He permitted it then that is espousing another force besides God that determines things (dualism). What is this force? Where did it come from or is it eternal like God and therefore a competitor?

Christians have a discordant view of God. They know He is infinite, yet they treat His foreknowledge as though God is finite.

God doesn't need foreknowledge to know the future, He is Omniscient. Foreknowledge to God, is a means of experiencing what He already knows, in a special way. God foreknew only His children whom He predestined, not the children of the Devil. That's why they aren't mentioned in Romans chapter 9. God's foreknowledge is like "highlighting text", it is "known before" the surrounding text because it seem elevated above it. But no new text is added, foreknowledge emphasizes something God already knows but wants to view from a different perspective. See Romans 11:2 "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew", foreknowing made it personal, He knew them before everyone else.

>
>
>Alfred Persson said:

>It is Christ who gives all things concrete existence, as "the Word" (John 1:1-3)

>This is a contradiction of your previous statement.
>Premise 1:
>Christ who gives all things concrete existence
>Premise 2:
>God permits random events occur
>If God creates everything then He controls everything. There is nothing working by permission.
>Acts 17:28; Colossians 1:17, etc

Look up the doctrines of "Providence" and "Concurrence." To illustrate this principle, in the movie the Matrix the computer generated reality didn't cause Neo and crew to do anything, but it was the computer that generated the Matrix including Neo and Crew.

>
>

>Alfred Persson said:
>"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

>That's a minority opinion in this forum IMO. I agree.
>You seem to be a Free Will proponent ... what is your definition of FREE WILL and do you have any scripture to support your definition?

"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. (Jn. 3:15 NKJ)

It does not say, "whoever God selected"; It says, "whoever believes" = our choice.

If Free Will is an illusion, and we are robots, how sad would that be if God wanted to share eternity with intelligent creatures who love Him for who He is?

>
>
>Alfred Persson said:
>When someone is mugged, God didn't send the mugger. He didn't decree it.

>Prove it. Give us a verse saying X happened and God had nothing to do with it. Only ones I know are anthropomorphisms like God repented of this or that.
>In Him we live and breathe and have our being .... any other option is a support of dualism or deism.

"If anyone fiercely assails you it will not be from Me. (Isa. 54:15 NAU)

>

>Alfred Persson said:
>But God does create the environment where free will choice becomes manifest. He fans the coals and forges the weapon, the destroyer to wreak havoc, but in neither case is He "first cause". The weapon and destroyer existed before He created the environment that permitted their full manifestation.

>Define Free Will as you use it. Again, if God does not control an action there was be another entity that does. What is the entity and who created it or is it eternal?

>
I control my actions, you control yours ad infinitum. Look in the mirror for the nearest entity to you.

>

>Alfred Persson said:
>Pharaoh is a great example. Pharaoh hardened his own heart, AFTER God permitted his magicians duplicate the miracles God did. That deceived the Pharoah into believing he could resist God, which was what he wanted to do.

>This is missing part of the story. The story of the exodus from Egypt repeatedly affirms that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh: God says, “I will harden his heart” (Exodus 4:21), “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 9:12), “the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 10:20, repeated in 10:27 and 11:10), “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 14:4), and “the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt” (Exodus 14:8). This is an example of concurrence (both divine and human agents can cause the same event at the same time).

Scripture interprets scripture. We put all the details together, and assemble them like a picture puzzle and the complete picture is revealed.

We don't leave out data that doesn't agree with a confession that certainly is wrong. Pharaoh hardened his own heart, God orchestrated events so he would do it in a timely fashion. In that sense He hardened Pharaoh's heart, but the first cause of the hardening was Pharaoh himself.

Jehu is a great illustration. He put out an edict Baal worship was ok, and all the prophets of Baal gathered into one place where they were slaughtered. Jehu gave them opportunity to do what they wanted, he didn't cause them to do evil (2 Kings 10:18-28).

>Alfred Persson said:
>No "hardening energy" went from God to Pharaoh's heart.

>This contradicts scripture. See above.

Only contradicts your "hasty generalization" that omits the data Pharaoh hardened his own heart:

11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
14 So the LORD said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go. (Exod. 7:11-14 NKJ)

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said. (Exod. 8:15 NKJ)


>This is common error. Just because something happens in the Bible and God doesn't say He was the First Cause people assume God didn't cause it. When it comes to the metaphysical cause you always eventually get to the initial cause, God. This is the Law of Causality; every effect has a cause.

That is a "hasty generalization fallacy". I deal in logic, not medieval metaphysics. God created man with Free Will, He did not ordain their choices or it wouldn't be Free Will. It really is that simple.

Let Christ's Words decide this:

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Satan is God's puppet to do with as God pleases. Satan is a created being; his will is created (determined) by God. An analogy would be that Satan is programmed by God.

I confess your reply here confused me. I thought we disagreed. So I won't comment on all that "agreement we have", only about Satan.

He is not God's puppet. He rebelled against God and acts in his own interest. But it serves God's greater purpose the chaff be separated from the wheat, so they are easily gathered up and burned.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I see a way to reconcile God knowing all, without Him causing all

I'm intrigued, what's your logic for God knowing all before anything existed? Where, from who, how did God eternally know all things?

God decided to create beings with free will,

I believe this statement to be a false premise ..
I ask you to define Free Will. Also, what scripture do you have to prove your point?

1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. (Jn. 9:1-3 NKJ)

God did not cause the man being born blind because of anyone's sin.

There is NOTHING in the story that says God did or didn't cause the man's blindness. Where do you see that?

God's creation follows natural laws, He doesn't cause tornados or earthquakes unless He has specific reasons for doing so. Most of the time, s...t happens and its not His doing.

Ah, the belief in deism (A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation. Deism pictures God as uncaring and uninvolved.). Technically, since you believe God intervenes at times in His creation I suppose you are a partial deist. Partial deism, an interesting position to take .. . You can't have science without repeatable observations. But is it God that causes this repeatability? If this repeatability is caused or not cause by God is hard to prove. There's lot's of anedotal verses implying God controls everything.

• Isaiah 46:10-11 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do'"
• James 4:13 Come now [and pay attention to this], you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and carry on our business and make a profit.” 14 [a]Yet you do not know [the least thing] [b]about what may happen in your life tomorrow. [What is secure in your life?] You are merely a vapor [like a puff of smoke or a wisp of steam from a cooking pot] that is visible for a little while and then vanishes [into thin air]. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and we will do this or that.”
• Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord
• Job 36:32
• Job 37:1-13; Mark 4:38-41; Job 38:12-13

Please provide scripture verses saying 'this' or 'that' are not caused by God. Only ones I know are anthropomorphic.
I think your statement is the fallacy of equivalency. You use the term "Law of Nature" in the sense that some unknown power called the "Law of Nature" is not in reality the "Law of God".

God permits evil and injustice etc. to exist, because its what Adam and Eve chose, life in a fallen world out side of God's blessing.

Your use of the word PERMIT suggests dualism. Again I ask, what, who is the power that caused Adam will to do X or Y. Adam's will came from somewhere. Who "programmed" Adam?

But as Christ said, all the evil and injustice in the world will be repaid, by God. No injustice or evil will go unpunished, and no loss suffered because of the Fall will fail to be reversed, in His kingdom.

Technical point ... since those in hell will be there for eternity and God is just ... it seems all evil and injustice will not be repaid as there will never be enough time to complete God's sentencing.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God permits the Devil tempt etc., because it serves His purpose to separate the wheat from the chaff during our lifespans.

But permission isn't direction. The Devil picks and chooses his victims without God's help. As for the text I cited, it proves Satan can "telepathically argue against the gospel", it does not prove God caused it.

Again, this is dualism. Again I ask, who gave Satan his will to do X or Y?? Where does it says Satan is not controlled by God. The story of Job is a step by step example of God controlling the evil Satan does. (Aside: I know in a previous post you said something like "this is an exception" but that avoids our observations.)
Genesis 45:5 Now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me [Joseph] here, for God sent me ahead of you to save life and preserve our family.

God is not first cause of what the Devil does. And none of your scriptures even remotely proves He is.

We disagree. The plain reading of the text says God is the cause.

• Exodus 3:21 I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians
• Exodus 4:11 The Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute or the deaf, or the seeing or the blind? Is it not I, the Lord? 12 Now then go, and I, even I, will be with your mouth, and will teach you what you shall say.”
• Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.
• Exodus 14:17 “And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen.”
• Numbers 22:38 “Have I now any power at all to say anything? The word that God puts in my mouth, that shall I speak.”
• Job 23:14a “For He performs what is planned (appointed) for me,
• Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect. [puppets … our thoughts and plans are of NO EFFECT]
• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.

I can do many more verses. Give me a verse saying God did not cause something save an anthropomorphic verse.