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1John 3:9 What does it mean?

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As it pertains to 1 John 3:9, there is a very purposeful and intentional dilemma placed there, by John the Apostle, who was obviously divinely inspired to pen same. We already know some things prior to arriving at 1 John 3:9, that we can not say we have no sin and be "in truth" from 1 John 1:8. We also know we can be and in fact "are" forgiven, yet it's still sin, regardless, in our failings.

John is very pointed in his statements, particularly in the KJV. Other paraphrased versions have "washed and dumbed" this down, because in their own minds, they can not and do not see this as possible. But it is a fact, as written.

1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This my dear fellow believers, shows the PRESENCE OF THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, within us, and it's quite simple to see this. Yes, the 'seed' of Christ IS planted in our temple.

From there, it gets more interesting, as we try to fathom the other side of the equations.
 
1John 3:
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

What does verse 9 means? Just for starters, the fact that verse 10 indicates that verse 9 is something visible, even measurable to the point of distinguishing children of God from children of the devil eliminates interpretations like this is referring to something merely internal to those born of God.

Nor is it referring to perfect behavior, as 1John 2:1;1:8,10; not to mention Gal 5:17 all indicate those born of God will sin from time to time.

What I find interesting about 1John is that in the Greek whenever John is referring to lifestyle he uses the present tense. And whenever John is referring to a snapshot event, or a behavior uncharacteristic of the person, he uses the aorist (which we don't have in English and so you lose something in the translation)




In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin. And this is a distinguishing mark of those born of God. Thus when Paul says, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God.

Hi bcbsr, I always thought a good example of what you explained is given in (John 13:5-10). A man that has already been bathed (cleansed) does not need cleansed again, but only his feet as he walks in this world of sin. The believer is cleansed as before the law from all sin, "once for all" (Heb. 10:1-12). But throughout our earthly life we bring our daily sins to the Father in confession or lose fellowship until we confesses our sins. And we do that through Christ who is our propitiation..(Gal. 5:17-18)

In Christ
Douglas Summers
 
As it pertains to 1 John 3:9, there is a very purposeful and intentional dilemma placed there, by John the Apostle, who was obviously divinely inspired to pen same. We already know some things prior to arriving at 1 John 3:9, that we can not say we have no sin and be "in truth" from 1 John 1:8. We also know we can be and in fact "are" forgiven, yet it's still sin, regardless, in our failings.

John is very pointed in his statements, particularly in the KJV. Other paraphrased versions have "washed and dumbed" this down, because in their own minds, they can not and do not see this as possible. But it is a fact, as written.

1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This my dear fellow believers, shows the PRESENCE OF THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, within us, and it's quite simple to see this. Yes, the 'seed' of Christ IS planted in our temple.

From there, it gets more interesting, as we try to fathom the other side of the equations.
I view sin as a direction that is in separation from God. Therefore sin has two connotations described as, a place, or condition, and also an action. So, I can have sin in that I am separated from God as in a condition or place, but I also can not sin further as in an action that would separate me further in sin. And this is due to Christ within me. 2 Timothy 3:13.
 
I view sin as a direction that is in separation from God. Therefore sin has two connotations described as, a place, or condition, and also an action. So, I can have sin in that I am separated from God as in a condition or place, but I also can not sin further as in an action that would separate me further in sin. And this is due to Christ within me. 2 Timothy 3:13.

The dilemma is in Romans (7:7-25) Many teach false doctrines that the law is done away with, but God is not lawless. The Laws are the very standard of God's nature. Paul, before he was saved stood perfect in the law (Phil. 3:1-9) or confidence in the flesh. But it was only after he was saved that he saw the law had fooled him.....it was actually condemning him (Rom. 7:7-14) because he now has two natures. So the battle begins between the two.. (Rom. 7: 15-25) Not Paul and the Holy Spirit, but Saul and the holy Spirit, Paul is out of the conflict (of confidence in the flesh). He now lives by faith. He now lives under the law of Christ.. What is the Law of Christ? That we love as He loved (John 15:9-13; 1 Cor. Chapter 13) So we do not void the law (Rom. 3:31) (for it is Holy ,righteous, and true (Rom. 7:12) So the purpose of the law is to condemn sin in us, but NEVER the new man, conforming to the image of Christ. We are no more under the condemnation of death which is demanded by the law . The reason? The demand of the law has already been satisfied by God in Jesus Christ and all by faith that have received the gift of grace from our creator. So we are out of any conflict, for Christ is our eternal propitiation.. This is not something we act out, this is a new birth. You must be born again, Really!

In Christ
Douglas Summers
 
The dilemma is in Romans (7:7-25) Many teach false doctrines that the law is done away with, but God is not lawless. The Laws are the very standard of God's nature. Paul, before he was saved stood perfect in the law (Phil. 3:1-9) or confidence in the flesh. But it was only after he was saved that he saw the law had fooled him.....it was actually condemning him (Rom. 7:7-14) because he now has two natures. So the battle begins between the two.. (Rom. 7: 15-25) Not Paul and the Holy Spirit, but Saul and the holy Spirit, Paul is out of the conflict (of confidence in the flesh). He now lives by faith. He now lives under the law of Christ.. What is the Law of Christ? That we love as He loved (John 15:9-13; 1 Cor. Chapter 13) So we do not void the law (Rom. 3:31) (for it is Holy ,righteous, and true (Rom. 7:12) So the purpose of the law is to condemn sin in us, but NEVER the new man, conforming to the image of Christ. We are no more under the condemnation of death which is demanded by the law . The reason? The demand of the law has already been satisfied by God in Jesus Christ and all by faith that have received the gift of grace from our creator. So we are out of any conflict, for Christ is our eternal propitiation.. This is not something we act out, this is a new birth. You must be born again, Really!

In Christ
Douglas Summers
I've seen this debate of whether the law is done away with or not. It is in my view, mostly arguing semantics. For what it's worth, I think your last line says it all, "You must be born again, Really!" Either Christ on the cross is the Power of God, or a placebo.
 
I've seen this debate of whether the law is done away with or not. It is in my view, mostly arguing semantics. For what it's worth, I think your last line says it all, "You must be born again, Really!" Either Christ on the cross is the Power of God, or a placebo.
It's not a debate, It is the Truth (John 3:1-12) Only a person who is not sure would give that kind of answer, "Either Christ on the cross is the Power of God, or a placebo".[/QUOTE] HERE is the answer of the born again (Rom. 1:1-5; 16:24-27; 1 Cor. 1:1-9; 2 Cor. 13:11-14; Gal. 1:1-5). Paul and the other ministers of the faith wrote from the Spirit (born again) most of us just write what they wrote with no Spiritual understanding. Picking Scripture apart and teaching of our own understanding. It should be our lives endeavor to know our lord to the fullest. We spend to much wasted time leaning on our own understanding. God needs labors, not debaters. Sure, we need to study the Scriptures, but how many of us have asked God to enlighten us, without predigest. So, what gift do you think the Holy Spirit empowered you with? Every born again christian has at least one gift, Some have more.

In The Lord who dwells in our inner man by Grace
Douglas Summers
 
(Lets all understand this IS a debate forum, so debate is allowed here and members are not allowed to restrict other members from participating in debate within the ToS and the guidelines of this forum. A member's differing view, or his pointing out possible differing views of others does not give one the right to question his faith per ToS section 2.4 or tell him he is not allowed to debate in this forum.)
 
It's not a debate, It is the Truth (John 3:1-12) Only a person who is not sure would give that kind of answer, "Either Christ on the cross is the Power of God, or a placebo". HERE is the answer of the born again (Rom. 1:1-5; 16:24-27; 1 Cor. 1:1-9; 2 Cor. 13:11-14; Gal. 1:1-5). Paul and the other ministers of the faith wrote from the Spirit (born again) most of us just write what they wrote with no Spiritual understanding. Picking Scripture apart and teaching of our own understanding. It should be our lives endeavor to know our lord to the fullest. We spend to much wasted time leaning on our own understanding. God needs labors, not debaters. Sure, we need to study the Scriptures, but how many of us have asked God to enlighten us, without predigest. So, what gift do you think the Holy Spirit empowered you with? Every born again christian has at least one gift, Some have more.

In The Lord who dwells in our inner man by Grace
Douglas Summers
I think you misunderstand me. I was agreeing with your post. I am saying that Christ is not a placebo. I simply wanted to reframe the real issue of the debate over whether the law is obsolete or not, so as to bypass the semantic confusion that arises. 1 Timothy 3:16.
16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,[d]
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
 
The dilemma is in Romans (7:7-25) Many teach false doctrines that the law is done away with, but God is not lawless.

Moses law has been declared obsolete and has vanished away, having been nailed to the cross and abolished in His flesh.
Hebrews 8:13
Ephesians 2:14-15
Colossians 2:14

God's kingdom laws are eternal.

Abraham obeyed the laws and commandments of the Lord, 430 years before the law was added.

We are to obey God's laws as Abraham obeyed
 
I've seen this debate of whether the law is done away with or not. It is in my view, mostly arguing semantics. For what it's worth, I think your last line says it all, "You must be born again, Really!" Either Christ on the cross is the Power of God, or a placebo.
Gods Law(s) do have power. They are HOLY, JUST, RIGHT, SPIRITUAL.

But what do they really do? Paul shows us "how" the Law operates, in Romans 7:7-13. Yes, this really DID happen within Paul. He saw what the law did to him internally and saw in that, A PROBLEM of very deep proportions.

THIS is exactly the POWER OF THE LAW:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Anyone who thinks they are "legal" inside have actually been deceived by indwelling sin. The Law does work quite entirely predictably by the RESISTANCE of indwelling SIN, to the LAW.

Paul saw in the above, his own, personal wretched state. There is no "truthful" avoidance of this conclusion because the LAW works adversely with indwelling sin. It can do no other. This is in fact the 'basis' of Paul's entire understanding of salvation by GRACE, through faith, alone.

Paul reiterates this identical matter, again, here:

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

There is no avoiding Paul's conclusions regardless of any claims to the contrary.

There is no "legal" person. It is scripturally impossible, because scripture has made THIS conclusion, and it CAN NOT be changed.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

An no, we are not "saved" in order to be "legally obedient" under the law.

There is however another aspect to the LAW, and this is what makes it so difficult to come to grips with. AFTER we are led to personally confront what indwelling sin does, there is the Spirit of the Law that comes into action. This, the Spiritual Actions, indwelling sin can NOT do. This is GOD IN CHRIST dwelling in us, LOVING.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So, now, we have all these various voices, claiming they are legally obedient by their works, or any other measures they use to justify themselves, yet, they openly potentially condemn other believers to hell? Who are they kidding, but themselves?

Love does no such things.



 
Moses law has been declared obsolete and has vanished away, having been nailed to the cross and abolished in His flesh.
Hebrews 8:13
Ephesians 2:14-15
Colossians 2:14

God's kingdom laws are eternal.

Abraham obeyed the laws and commandments of the Lord, 430 years before the law was added.

We are to obey God's laws as Abraham obeyed
If the law is obsolete then who is a sinner. If there is no law, then there is no condemnation for anyone. It tells us plainly, "Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID; YEA, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW. After by grace, God lead Israel out of Egypt (a type of the world we live in, even today) and walked ahead and behind Israel keeping them safe by His grace, When they reached Mt. Sinai, God ask them if they would obey His voice and Covenant. Instead of asking to continue in the grace of God that lead them out of Egypt, they said, "All that the LORD hath spoken, we will do". Thus, under law, not grace. So the contract or covenant was drawn up between God and Israel. The works of law.
There was nothing wrong with that Covenant of law. The problem was with Israel. (Heb. 8:7-8) So God voided the covenant...NOT THE LAW (Heb. 8:9-13) The covenant Israel made to God was they would obey what ever He said.(Exodus 19:8) So now the Old Contract has become void and fadeth away (NOT THE LAW), for it is no more a binding contract. The arbitration has been satisfied (by God in Jesus Christ)
 
I think you misunderstand me. I was agreeing with your post. I am saying that Christ is not a placebo. I simply wanted to reframe the real issue of the debate over whether the law is obsolete or not, so as to bypass the semantic confusion that arises. 1 Timothy 3:16.
16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,[d]
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

Hi childeye, What I wrote was not personal about you, it's about us. If a man Is born again he is zealous for the Spirit's filling and personal fellowship with God. Where is the positive and Spiritual fortitude? Instead we have many striving about words and their own understanding. Is our testimony seen in our everyday walk? I was looking up gospel singing artiest. Every singer that started out in the Church Choir, that went to secular singing, have ALL become either drug addicts, died from drugs, turned to vulgar lyrics and do not recognize God. Yet if they sing a gospel song, everyone considers them to be a christian. The world does not know the difference, why? because they do not see any difference. That is my point, they see no conviction. There is no conviction in most of our fellowship...if you can call it that.(2 Tim. 3:1-8; 4:1-4)
 
f the law is obsolete then who is a sinner.

Can you show me in the law of Moses, where it says for us not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Remember, the law was added 430 years after the Abrahamic Covenant. Galatians 3:19

Abraham obeyed the laws and commandments of the Lord before Moses was born. Genesis 26:5


JLB
 
Hi childeye, What I wrote was not personal about you, it's about us. If a man Is born again he is zealous for the Spirit's filling and personal fellowship with God. Where is the positive and Spiritual fortitude? Instead we have many striving about words and their own understanding. Is our testimony seen in our everyday walk? I was looking up gospel singing artiest. Every singer that started out in the Church Choir, that went to secular singing, have ALL become either drug addicts, died from drugs, turned to vulgar lyrics and do not recognize God. Yet if they sing a gospel song, everyone considers them to be a christian. The world does not know the difference, why? because they do not see any difference. That is my point, they see no conviction. There is no conviction in most of our fellowship...if you can call it that.(2 Tim. 3:1-8; 4:1-4)
I'm not sure what gift I have. I think I discern spirits well. It's obvious that you are bothered by what you call a lack of conviction. I would surmise form your words two things; that you feel we should walk the walk more than talk the talk, and you therefore probably wonder why so many Christians parrot the scriptures, rather than speak from their own personal testimony. 1 John 3:9 after all, is about experiencing first hand being born of God, not reading about it.
 
I'm not sure what gift I have. I think I discern spirits well. It's obvious that you are bothered by what you call a lack of conviction. I would surmise form your words two things; that you feel we should walk the walk more than talk the talk, and you therefore probably wonder why so many Christians parrot the scriptures, rather than speak from their own personal testimony. 1 John 3:9 after all, is about experiencing first hand being born of God, not reading about it.
Yes.
 
Can you show me in the law of Moses, where it says for us not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Remember, the law was added 430 years after the Abrahamic Covenant. Galatians 3:19

Abraham obeyed the laws and commandments of the Lord before Moses was born. Genesis 26:5


JLB
Everything command or instruction that God gives us is a law. That is what sin is, disobedience to God's commands or wishes. It is called transgressions. The purpose of the law of Mosses were all the ceremonial types. A school teacher till the fulfillment of God's work in Jesus The Christ.These were part of the law. The Ten commandments were from God, His moral standard for His Creation. We are no more under a school teacher. (The Epistle to the Galatians) (Book of Hebrews) But God still holds us to a moral standard,(Roman 7:7-14) The indwelling Holy Spirit that has written it in our hearts. And by Grace through faith we believe God.
 
1John 3:
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

What does verse 9 means? Just for starters, the fact that verse 10 indicates that verse 9 is something visible, even measurable to the point of distinguishing children of God from children of the devil eliminates interpretations like this is referring to something merely internal to those born of God.

Nor is it referring to perfect behavior, as 1John 2:1;1:8,10; not to mention Gal 5:17 all indicate those born of God will sin from time to time.

What I find interesting about 1John is that in the Greek whenever John is referring to lifestyle he uses the present tense. And whenever John is referring to a snapshot event, or a behavior uncharacteristic of the person, he uses the aorist (which we don't have in English and so you lose something in the translation).

In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin. And this is a distinguishing mark of those born of God. Thus when Paul says, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God.

I've come into this thread late and I have not read the entire thread. I apologise if this exegesis of the text has been covered.

These translations provide an accurate understanding of what the verse says and help to unlock its meaning:

I John 3:9 (ESV): 'No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God'.

1 John 3:9 (NIV): 'No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God'.

1 John 3:9 (NLT): 'Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God'.

Oz
 
I've come into this thread late and I have not read the entire thread. I apologise if this exegesis of the text has been covered.

These translations provide an accurate understanding of what the verse says and help to unlock its meaning:

I John 3:9 (ESV): 'No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God'.

1 John 3:9 (NIV): 'No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God'.

1 John 3:9 (NLT): 'Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God'.

Oz
I think we have covered this basic principle, but a refresher of the fundamentals is always good. I believe the issue is now, a matter of the fear that if/when we do presently sin, then how can we claim to have Christ? Or to rephrase, the problem is how is it that we could sin if Christ is in us? Wouldn't we then never sin? If so, then none of us would need confess our sins and be cleansed. 1 John 1:9. James 5:16.
 
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