1John 3:9 What does it mean?

[FreeGrace]

We've done this drill on "freewill" quite a few times now. No "will" that is blinded by the god of this world is free. 2 Cor. 4:4. There was an action of God in Christ "in you" that rebuked this blinder and his blindness "in you and I and everyone who believes" in order for "us" to believe.

"In order for us to believe"? Sure, where is that taught? How come no one can provide any verse that teaches that God chooses who will believe? The reason is real simple; God doesn't choose who will believe. He saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

Otherwise, without this Divine Intervention of God in Christ, people remain spiritually DEAD and BLINDED within by the "god of this world."

The problem with such a view is that this blindness by Satan is universal and complete. Yet, once again, Scripture itself refutes such a view.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

This verse clearly acknowledges that there are those who come to God and that there are "those who seek Him", all without the Calvinistic spin that God is the cause of it.

Acts 17:26,27 - 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

These verses verify that God determined the WHEN and WHERE each person is placed on earth and for the purpose "that they would seek God", clearly indicating that men can and DO seek Him. All without the Calvinistic spin.

Gods Word prompts Satan to work adversely, as Satan was made by God to do and to perform. Mark 4:15, Prov. 16:4, Col. 1:16 and others.

I have no idea what your point is or even what the statement "God's Word prompts Satan to work adversely" means.

IF God did not intend Satan and his minions to exist, they would not exist.

I don't deal in the "what if's" [Please review ToS 2.4]. I deal only with the "what IS" facts of Scripture. Of course God intended everything He created to exist. So what? What are you trying to prove?

I said this:
"And it seems you're entirely comfortable with the idea that man is a puppet, whose strings are pulled by God. Right or wrong?"

Man has been Divinely Purposefully been put into and under subjection. 1 Cor. 15:42-49.

How does being put under subject equal being a puppet? There is no connection.

Only if we refuse to see or CAN NOT see, that they are blinded by the god of this world.

We aren't refusing because of Satan. To refuse anything is a CHOICE, once again proving freedom of choice, or as some call it, free will. Free to choose.

And, if a person, even a believer, can NOT see this, then they also are presently suffering a lack of sight from that same adverse working, Divinely so.

Even though it is quite plainly seen by others.

Believers who think that God chooses who will believe are "seeing" things. There are no verses that say such a thing. Believers who reject the fact that the Bible teaches that man is able to freely choose to either consent and obey, or to refuse and rebel, per Isa 1:18-20, have closed their eyes, just the same as how Paul quoted from Isa 6:9,10 in Acts 28:27.

 

[smaller]

"In order for us to believe"? Sure, where is that taught? How come no one can provide any verse that teaches that God chooses who will believe? The reason is real simple; God doesn't choose who will believe. He saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

The freewill claim is that there is "nothing" to stop anyone from believing, and that claim is obviously false, as the god of this world IS involved in spiritual blindness. 2 Cor. 4:4

The freewill position has no account of the obvious other party and in effect, ends up blaming man when there are other directions to look.

The problem with such a view is that this blindness by Satan is universal and complete. Yet, once again, Scripture itself refutes such a view.

Yes, that is in fact the case, as evidenced again, by Eph. 2:2, showing this "universal principle" of spiritual captivity UNDER Satan's induced blindness. Acts 26:18.

This verse clearly acknowledges that there are those who come to God and that there are "those who seek Him", all without the Calvinistic spin that God is the cause of it.

One does not have to be a "calvinist" to understand spiritual blindness by Satan. It's there in the scriptures to observe. Calvinism itself makes no account for this matter, and instead, blames the "total depravity" of man RATHER THAN the total depravity of SATAN. So, the calvin premise is, in this way, extremely faulty as well. Calvin was apparently just as blind to the matter in blaming only man. Just as much as the freewill premise.

I have no idea what your point is or even what the statement "God's Word prompts Satan to work adversely" means.

I cited Jesus' Fact on the matter, here: Mark 4:15. This shows "Satan's adverse actions" which same are prompted by the Word. It's fairly simple to read. Much harder to take "personally."

We aren't refusing because of Satan.

So says you. Jesus shows us that we do have an adversary, and that adversary works internally, in the spiritually blinded. So much so that many believers can't even see the facts of it.

 

[FreeGrace]

The freewill claim is that there is "nothing" to stop anyone from believing, and that claim is obviously false, as the god of this world IS involved in spiritual blindness. 2 Cor. 4:4

Well, that is NOT my claim. I believe what the Bible says about free choice. Everyone has it. That's all. Actually, there's many things that can "stop" someone from believing. Jesus mentioned one in the parable of the soils. Some actually quit believing because of trials or temptations. But there are many others things as well. Whoever claims what you've noted doesn't have a clue as to what the Bible says.

The freewill position has no account of the obvious other party and in effect, ends up blaming man when there are other directions to look.

My view is the Biblical free will position. People are free to choose either to "consent and obey" God, or "refuse and rebel" against Him. We see this choice in Isa 1:18-20.

We also see choice in Deut 11 and 30.

There is no doubt from the Bible about man having free choices to make. To suggest that all of man's choices come from God is unbiblical.

Yes, that is in fact the case, as evidenced again, by Eph. 2:2, showing this "universal principle" of spiritual captivity UNDER Satan's induced blindness. Acts 26:18.

Sure, ignore the verses that refutes this claim. Whatever.

One does not have to be a "calvinist" to understand spiritual blindness by Satan.

And I never said one had to be, either.

It's there in the scriptures to observe.

ANd the opposite is just as clear: Cornelius. Where would one read that God had opened his eyes before he "worshiped God"? It doesn't. Pure speculation and assumption that God did.

Calvinism itself makes no account for this matter, and instead, blames the "total depravity" of man RATHER THAN the total depravity of SATAN. So, the calvin premise is, in this way, extremely faulty as well. Calvin was apparently just as blind to the matter in blaming only man. Just as much as the freewill premise.

Yes, Calvin had his problems. So, what is the problem with the "freewill premise"? I mean mine, not what you've claimed as the "freewill premise". My view is the Bible teaches that man is free in making choices, either for or against God, as Isa 1:18-20 clearly indicate. What's wrong with that view?

So says you. Jesus shows us that we do have an adversary, and that adversary works internally, in the spiritually blinded. So much so that many believers can't even see the facts of it.

This completely missed my point. The FACT of refusal requires a choice to make. Where in Scripture do we read about Satan making those choices for us? We don't. Simple as that.

The FACT of refusal proves the existence of free choice, in fact. One cannot refuse something unless one is free to.

I think your understanding about free will is terribly misguided. I think a straw man has been created by Calvinism for the purpose of attack.

Why not rather deal with what free will really is? It is freedom to choose between available options. That immediately removes the stupid argument that man can't choose to do whatever man is unable to do. That conflates ability with choice. There is no relationship between the two.

For example, no human can vertically jump 10 feet in the air. That doesn't mean that man is not free to try, but free will has nothing to do with accomplishing it.

To claim that because man cannot vertically jump 10 feet in the air man does not have free will is ludicrous. Jumping up 10 feet in the air isn't about free will. It's about ability.

So, care to deal with my view of it? Or would you rather stay with your straw man and pound the tar out of it?

 

[smaller]

Well, that is NOT my claim. I believe what the Bible says about free choice. Everyone has it. That's all. Actually, there's many things that can "stop" someone from believing. Jesus mentioned one in the parable of the soils. Some actually quit believing because of trials or temptations. But there are many others things as well. Whoever claims what you've noted doesn't have a clue as to what the Bible says.

That may be true if God in Christ had no "Actively Working" will in man OR the devil and his messengers had no "actively adverse working" will in man. Scripture doesn't make that case:

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2 Corinthians 11:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

When the other Will/will's are seen, freewill is shown for what it is, lacking a full picture of the field of scriptural engagements.

But, unless and until a believer see's their own internal temptations as of and from the devil, from a will that is not theirs, they will not submit to this conclusion, as they are in fact clouded by that other will.

2 Timothy 2:
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[JLB]

Hi JBL, These warnings are to the self righteous and deceived among true believers. Not to the born again (1 Cor. 6:11). The Lord warned us that there would be tares among the wheat. But let them mature together and He would gather them out of the harvest.

So you are saying that a person in Christ is a tare?

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Those who are in Christ, who walk according to the flesh are not promised to be free from condemnation.

The promise of "no condemnation" is to those who walk according to the Spirit.

The ink had not even had time to dry on what Paul had written in this letter to the Romans, found in Chapter 6...

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

"death", "damnation", "not inheriting the kingdom of God", all end with the same result... being cast into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and His angels.


James explains -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death...Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
James 1:14-15,21

Both Paul and James are addressing Christians, not unbelievers.


JLB

 

[JLB]

OK, let's go back to the verse at hand, to help bring some light to the subject.

Rom 8:1 - Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

In your post #120, you quoted Rom 8:1 this way:
"1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Those in Christ who walk after the flesh, are condemned."
The problem is what was added to Scripture, by the phrase "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit", which does NOT appear in Rom 8:1.

That's funny!

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 NKJV

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 KJV

Paul also says in Romans 8 -

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

and again

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13


Here again tom the Corinthians - Just so you can't claim Paul was warning unbelievers, I will preface with what he wrote in the previous chapter -

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." 1 Corinthians 5:9-13


For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside...

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

and again


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

These scriptures are a warning to Christians not to live a lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh...




JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

So you are saying that a person in Christ is a tare? Really JBL !

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Those who are in Christ, who walk according to the flesh are not promised to be free from condemnation.

The promise of "no condemnation" is to those who walk according to the Spirit.

The ink had not even had time to dry on what Paul had written in this letter to the Romans, found in Chapter 6...

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

"death", "damnation", "not inheriting the kingdom of God", all end with the same result... being cast into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and His angels.


James explains -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death...Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
James 1:14-15,21

Both Paul and James are addressing Christians, not unbelievers.


JLB

Hi JLB, You are living by the natural man's understanding. You can not believe God, nor do you want to. For it is foolishness to man. For in the beginning God gave man the simple truth of His wisdom. But man gave it up to their own understanding. So it pleased God to save us by Faith which is folly to man. For when they knew God they thought it nothing to behold. You must be born again. That is not a phrase to just be thrown around, it is an actual rebirth of the new man. I have been where you are at. I made the same arguments, but I'am free from that now, never to go back. I know I'm not worthy, but that is why it is said, We are saved by Grace through faith in God's works.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB, You are living by the natural man's understanding. You can not believe God, nor do you want to. For it is foolishness to man. For in the beginning God gave man the simple truth of His wisdom. But man gave it up to their own understanding. So it pleased God to save us by Faith which is folly to man. For when they knew God they thought it nothing to behold. You must be born again. That is not a phrase to just be thrown around, it is an actual rebirth of the new man. I have been where you are at. I made the same arguments, but I'am free from that now, never to go back. I know I'm not worthy, but that is why it is said, We are saved by Grace through faith in God's works.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

Doug,

Please follow the Forums guidelines by answering the many referenced scriptures that I posted, with the point you are making, with scripture.

I posted several scriptures that warn us of the consequences of following after, walking after, being enticed by and practicing the works of the flesh.


If you believe that a person who is in Christ, a believer, a Christian, can live a lifestyle of immorality, following after the desires of the flesh, such as what Paul mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21, then please say why, with the scriptures that support your theory.


Thanks JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Well, that is NOT my claim. I believe what the Bible says about free choice. Everyone has it. That's all. Actually, there's many things that can "stop" someone from believing. Jesus mentioned one in the parable of the soils. Some actually quit believing because of trials or temptations. But there are many others things as well. Whoever claims what you've noted doesn't have a clue as to what the Bible says."

That may be true if God in Christ had no "Actively Working" will in man OR the devil and his messengers had no "actively adverse working" will in man. Scripture doesn't make that case:

I am not following your reasoning. It's true because the Bible HAS made that case, as I showed, yet you've chosen to ignore, rather than deal with. Isa 1:18-20 and Deut 11 and 30.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Yes, this is true, but don't forget other very pertinent verses: Eph 5:18 - be filled with the Spirit. Gal 5:16 - walk by means of the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Eph 4:30 - do not grieve the Holy Spirit, 1 Thess 5:19 - do not quench the Holy Spirit.

These are direct commands to either DO or STOP doing. These are choices. And we make our own choices.

These verses give us the mechanism as to whether God actually IS working in us to do His will and good pleasure.

When believers grieve or quench the Holy Spirit, God isn't working in us to do His will and good pleasure, obviously.

When the other Will/will's are seen, freewill is shown for what it is, lacking a full picture of the field of scriptural engagements.

This doesn't even make any sense. I've explained free will; it is the freedom to choose from available options, as Isa 1:18-20 and Deut 11 and 30 very clearly show.

But, unless and until a believer see's their own internal temptations as of and from the devil, from a will that is not theirs, they will not submit to this conclusion, as they are in fact clouded by that other will.

I'm not aware of any believer who isn't aware that all sin originated from the devil.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 NKJV

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 KJV

So what? NASB - Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
NIV - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

The NASB uses formal equivalence and NIV uses dynamic equivalence for translations. Kind of the opposite ends of the spectrum. And neither includes the words that the KJV or NKJV uses.

Here's the ESV, another formal equivalence: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

How about the 1599 Geneva Bible - 1 He concludeth that there is no condemnation to them, who are grafted in Christ through his Spirit

How about the Living Bible, a paraphrase translation - So there is now no condemnation awaiting those who belong to Christ Jesus.

NLT (New Living Translation - paraphrase) - So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.
RSV - There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
God's Word translation - So those who are believers in Christ Jesus can no longer be condemned.

Regardless, it seems there is a disagreement among translations. But it doesn't matter. Paul is simply distinguishing between believers by the phrase "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit". His point is that believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, unlike that of unbelievers.

Paul also says in Romans 8 -

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

and again

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13


Here again tom the Corinthians - Just so you can't claim Paul was warning unbelievers, I will preface with what he wrote in the previous chapter -

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." 1 Corinthians 5:9-13

Where in any of these passages does one read about loss of salvation? I'm not seeing anything resembling that.

For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside...

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

This is getting tired. I've already showed the parallel passage from Eph 5:5 which speaks of such a lifestyle having no inheritance IN the kingdom. That's the point. They will be in the kingdom, but just not have any inheritance IN it.

and again
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Interesting that you've never bothered citing Eph 5:5, the parallel passage to both Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6 and is saying the same thing, except in Eph 5, Paul says they will have no inheritance IN the kingdom. Same difference.

These scriptures are a warning to Christians not to live a lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh…

Yes they are. But there is NOTHING about loss of salvation. You've not proven your claim.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Doug,

Please follow the Forums guidelines by answering the many referenced scriptures that I posted, with the point you are making, with scripture.

I posted several scriptures that warn us of the consequences of following after, walking after, being enticed by and practicing the works of the flesh.


If you believe that a person who is in Christ, a believer, a Christian, can live a lifestyle of immorality, following after the desires of the flesh, such as what Paul mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21, then please say why, with the scriptures that support your theory.


Thanks JLB

I do not believe that a born again believer can follow after the desires of the flesh. In other words, he does not practice sin. But a born again believer can backslide. But the born again believer has two natures now, the Spirit of Christ and the spirit of man. (Gal. 5:16-18) But the Spirit Gives victory over sin, for we are not under law.(v 18) While a man has the desires of the flesh at times, He is strengthen by the Spirit to pull away from such living by a guilty conscience.(vs 22-26) Romans Chapter 7 is the testimony of a saved man fighting with the old man, Paul vs. Saul- Romans Chapter 8 is his victory over the old man. The natural man never feels guilty in God, he only feels bad about being caught, for he does not know God. In 1 John 3:9, John is saying we do not practice sin, But if we sin, then (1John 1:8 thru 2:2:1, 2)

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[childeye]

That is actually what Paul clearly taught in Romans 6. For example:

v.12,13 - 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

The issue was about deliverance from addiction. 2 Peter 2:9
I'm saying that these people testify that they were delivered from their sin, miraculously by God in Jesus' name. They couldn't stop drinking, even though they wanted to, and God healed them. Romans 6:12-13, is not teaching we are both free to sin and free to not sin, back and forth forever, so as to establish our own unique identity apart from God. It's saying we're free to not sin only because of God through Christ, and only in Christ, is there life. Romans 6:20, Romans 6:22. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

I've underlined the 3 commands that Paul made. Commands are actually choices; we can either consent and obey, or refuse and rebel. Recall Isa 1:19-20 - 19 “If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land; 20 “But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword.” Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

First of all, I don't accept the premise that a command is a choice particularly since being devoured by a sword is not desirable. Therefore, a command from God is not optional unless I think I know better than the God Who created the entire universe. To see a command as an option is implying that rebellion is somehow viable in my contemplation. Only the unjust would consider it an option to act unjustly. It's a matter of spiritual content. That's why one must be willing so as to give consent. Therefore, I don 't dispute that we have a will with which we will consent to the Truth of God with, but first comes conviction. I therefore have concluded that I am utterly dependent upon the Spirit of Light to correct me from all error which I otherwise would do. Romans 6:23 verifies this. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. To say it is God and not I, is therefore not inappropriate. For nor can I honestly say, I could have freely not believed any time I wanted to. I either believe or I don't. Something is either true or it isn't. I know that, and the Spirit confirms this within me. So since I believe, nay but rather, know that I must walk in the Spirit so as not to walk in the flesh, I have no choice. Without Him I cannot live.

Back to Romans 6:
v.16 - Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Here, Paul makes very clear the choice before every believer; we either present ourselves to slaves of sin, or to slave of obedience.

Of course this is true that 'by default' we are going to present ourselves to a master in the context of good and evil. This is still spiritual and a matter of faith, and not a matter of free choice. Spiritual powers are not equal free choices in any respect, since one is falsehood. I don 't dispute that I can sin because my flesh has lusts, but I don't see it as my free will to have those lusts nor defeat those lusts. Therefore I depend upon the Spirit of Light to correct me from error, hence I do not see any free choice, lest error is counted as correctness. There is only 1 ONE WAY to Life. It's a one way road to Life.

If it weren't a free choice, then we'd all just be robots or puppets. I call that puppet theology. The Bible doesn't teach that, as Romans 6 clearly shows.

Romans 6 is saying we need Christ to be free from sin. It's about spiritual content, which you can call puppet theology if you want to. I am not ashamed of being called a puppet of Christ, since that is what I desire to be. That's why Romans 8:1 says this, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. See, without the Spirit I would be walking in the flesh.

I don't find any logic to your conclusion. Christ delivers (saves) only those who believe in Him. Does God choose who will believe? Where is that found in Scripture?

John 6:64-65,
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 6:12-13, is not teaching we are both free to sin and free to not sin, back and forth forever, so as to establish our own unique identity apart from God.

"so as to establish…"??? Where did this come from? Rom 6:16 makes clear the CHOICES believers have. We either present ourselves as slaves to sin, or to righteousness. And Paul obviously stressed the importance and need to present ourselves as slaves to righteousness, not sin.

It's saying we're free to not sin only because of God through Christ, and only in Christ, is there life.

All believers have been given eternal life. That's not the issue. Again, see above for explanation.

First of all, I don't accept the premise that a command is a choice particularly since being devoured by a sword is not desirable.

Everyone is free to have their own opinion, but a command can be either followed, or rejected. That is a choice.

I don't follow the comment about being devoured by a sword, though. What is the point here? It doesn't seem to fit any context of the discussion. Please clarify.

Therefore, a command from God is not optional unless I think I know better than the God Who created the entire universe.

Optional?? So, every command from God is ALWAYS followed exactly? That would mean that believers, who are commanded to live holy and blameless lives no longer sin. Does that fit your lifestyle?

Again, a command creates a choice; to either follow it or not. A choice. There are believers who do NOT follow the commands of God. And there are serious consequences for such action. It falls under the doctrine of divine discipline, as seen in 1 Cor 10 and 11:30, and 1 Jn 5:16. And many examples are given in Scripture.

To see a command as an option is implying that rebellion is somehow viable in my contemplation.

What is meant by "viable"? Doable? Or just another option that is legitimate? That's the problem with using "option". Sounds like just another legal or legitimate choice, when it ISN'T legal or legitimate.

The reality of life is that believers, children of God, actually CAN rebel against Him. They are not supposed to, but they CAN. It's a lousy "option", or choice. But it's still a choice.

Only the unjust would consider it an option to act unjustly.

Gots a news flash. All sinners sin! But they aren't supposed to.

It's a matter of spiritual content.

Rather, it is a matter of spiritual growth and application of God's Truth (doctrine).

So since I believe, nay but rather, know that I must walk in the Spirit so as not to walk in the flesh, I have no choice. Without Him I cannot live.

[Please review ToS 2.4] Yes, every believer has a choice to make. Paul made that very clear by giving 4 specific commands for believers.
Be filled with the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:18
Stop grieving the Holy Spirit - Eph 4:30
Walk by means of the Holy Spirit and you will NOT FULFILL the lusts of the flesh - Gal 5:16
Stop quenching the Holy Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

These are choices we make. Whether we're conscious of it or not. Notice what happens to believers who are NOT walking by means of the Spirit: "or you will fulfill the lusts of the flesh".

Of course this is true that 'by default' we are going to present ourselves to a master in the context of good and evil.

Rom 6:16 is crystal clear; it's a choice. The choice is to WHOM we present ourselves.

This is still spiritual and a matter of faith, and not a matter of free choice.

[Please review ToS 2.4] Of course it is a matter of choice. To whom we present ourselves, per Rom 6:16. And the 4 commands Paul gave believers. These are choices and ARE spiritual issues and a matter of faith.

Spiritual powers are not equal free choices in any respect, since one is falsehood.

How does "falsehood" negate choice? Satan makes many choices, and he is the father of falsehood and lies? [Please review ToS 2.4]

I don 't dispute that I can sin because my flesh has lusts, but I don't see it as my free will to have those lusts nor defeat those lusts.

When Paul commands believers to "put to death the lusts of the flesh", per Col 3:5, that is a choice to make. We either put it to death, or we don't.

Therefore I depend upon the Spirit of Light to correct me from error, hence I do not see any free choice, lest error is counted as correctness.

Maybe your spiritual "vision" needs some correction. The FACT that you've admitted that you depend on the Spirit IS A CHOICE. Some believers don't do that. That's also a choice.

There is only 1 ONE WAY to Life. It's a one way road to Life.

And…it's a choice.

Romans 6 is saying we need Christ to be free from sin.

Paul was writing to believers. They already HAVE Christ. His point is to choose wisely when presenting ourselves to whom we will obey. Rom 6:16

It's about spiritual content, which you can call puppet theology if you want to.

This is complete misunderstanding of my posts. Puppet theology is how some view Calvinism; that God makes all choices of people. Spiritual content is extremely important for ALL believers, and has nothing to do with any particular theology. Apart from spiritual growth, the believer will never be able to fulfill what he was predestined for; to be Christ-like in this life.

I am not ashamed of being called a puppet of Christ, since that is what I desire to be.

[Please review ToS 2.4]

We are commanded to imitate Christ (Gal 4:19). That's NOT puppetry in any sense.

That's why Romans 8:1 says this, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. See, without the Spirit I would be walking in the flesh.

That's from the KJV, which is from much older manuscripts, dated to the 10th Century. The better manuscripts, which have been found AFTER the KJV was written, dating back to the 2nd Century, do not have the phrase following "in Christ Jesus". That was inserted AFTER the original writing.

John 6:64-65,
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

What do these verses prove? What's the point here?

 

[JLB]

So what? NASB - Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
NIV - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

The NASB uses formal equivalence and NIV uses dynamic equivalence for translations. Kind of the opposite ends of the spectrum. And neither includes the words that the KJV or NKJV uses.

Here's the ESV, another formal equivalence: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

How about the 1599 Geneva Bible - 1 He concludeth that there is no condemnation to them, who are grafted in Christ through his Spirit

How about the Living Bible, a paraphrase translation - So there is now no condemnation awaiting those who belong to Christ Jesus.

NLT (New Living Translation - paraphrase) - So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.
RSV - There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
God's Word translation - So those who are believers in Christ Jesus can no longer be condemned.

Regardless, it seems there is a disagreement among translations. But it doesn't matter. Paul is simply distinguishing between believers by the phrase "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit". His point is that believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, unlike that of unbelievers.

When you compare what Paul wrote in the rest of Romans and to other Churches there is just no question about how Romans 8:1 should read -

Paul also says in Romans 8 -

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

and again

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

Here again tom the Corinthians - Just so you can't claim Paul was warning unbelievers, I will preface with what he wrote in the previous chapter -

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." 1 Corinthians 5:9-13


For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside...

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Couldn't be more clear!

and again


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


These scriptures are a warning to Christians not to live a lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh...

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


James confirms -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:14-15


Scripture after scripture, and warn upon warning, exhorting us to turn from sin, and not let sin reign and have dominion in our mortal bodies, so that we end up obeying sin, which leads to practicing the works of the flesh... which ultimately will lead to death, to condemnation and not inheriting the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

"so as to establish…"??? Where did this come from? Rom 6:16 makes clear the CHOICES believers have. We either present ourselves as slaves to sin, or to righteousness. And Paul obviously stressed the importance and need to present ourselves as slaves to righteousness, not sin.

Eternal Death! That's the point.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


James explains this more -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:14-15

and again

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. James 4:6



Peter also warns -

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

When you compare what Paul wrote in the rest of Romans and to other Churches there is just no question about how Romans 8:1 should read -

Paul also says in Romans 8 -

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

and again

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

Here again tom the Corinthians - Just so you can't claim Paul was warning unbelievers, I will preface with what he wrote in the previous chapter -

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." 1 Corinthians 5:9-13


For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside...

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Couldn't be more clear!

and again


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


These scriptures are a warning to Christians not to live a lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh...

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


James confirms -

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:14-15


Scripture after scripture, and warn upon warning, exhorting us to turn from sin, and not let sin reign and have dominion in our mortal bodies, so that we end up obeying sin, which leads to practicing the works of the flesh... which ultimately will lead to death, to condemnation and not inheriting the kingdom of God.

It is good to pay close attention to what Paul wrote, for sure. Especially in Romans, where he clearly defined what he meant by God's gifts, before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal Death! That's the point.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

Should one always interpret "death" as eternal death in Scripture?

James explains this more -
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:14-15

If one thinks v.15 speaks of eternal death, then any and every sin committed by any and every believer will result in eternal death. How does that make any sense?

and again
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. James 4:6

Relevance here?

Peter also warns -

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

Depends how one understands what "latter end" means. Some will assume it means in eternity, but there is no reason to assume such a thing.

 

[smaller]

I said this:
"Well, that is NOT my claim. I believe what the Bible says about free choice. Everyone has it. That's all. Actually, there's many things that can "stop" someone from believing. Jesus mentioned one in the parable of the soils. Some actually quit believing because of trials or temptations. But there are many others things as well. Whoever claims what you've noted doesn't have a clue as to what the Bible says."

Perhaps the point of observations will continue to be missed. There are "other wills" that operate "in man" that are not the person's will.

Evil thoughts for example, are shown by Paul, with same transpiring within him in adverse manners by the observation of the law(s) against lust. Paul tracks this down for us, and pinpoints this to the operations of indwelling sin within his own flesh, Romans 7:7-13, that he termed "no longer I" twice in Romans 7:17-20. Paul concluded from this very very truthful exercise on his part, that he did in fact, as a fact, have "evil present with him" as a direct result of the presence of indwelling sin. Romans 7:21. There is nothing there that even smacks of "freewill." This is what we "all" down to the last of us, deal with internally. Few are able, like Paul, to be transparent and HONEST about it. That takes a SPECIAL WORK of God in Christ within, to come to grips with the fact that we are sinners, even after salvation. And even worse, that this "sin" too is demonic and "of the devil." 1 John 3:8. Believers have been very busy ignoring these connections and our mutual difficulties for quite some time now.

I am not following your reasoning. It's true because the Bible HAS made that case, as I showed, yet you've chosen to ignore, rather than deal with. Isa 1:18-20 and Deut 11 and 30.

IF you think you see freewill there, it doesn't exist. The conscience of man assuredly deals with evil thoughts, and these, according to Jesus, are defiling and they defile us. There is "no choice" to having these thoughts or not. We all bear an evil conscience. Heb. 10:22. I can't honestly ask God in Christ to "bless my evil conscience" or even less, to overlook it. I wait for the day, in HOPE, when I will SHED that internal adversary. IN the meantime we are all left to deal with it. Some can be honest about it. Most can not, and will overlook it and seek to cover it up and 'excuse' both that working and themselves in the process. The Prophets and the Apostles KNEW the "woe is me" understanding, and conveyed it about themselves, openly. This is the bad foundation of the "human race" that necessitates our needs for God in Christ. Paul could not have gotten any more personally derogatory in these matters, in his "wretched man am I" declarations. I revel in his brutal HONESTY. Romans 7:24. That didn't change after Paul was saved. It was, and is, the foundation that faith is built on.

These are direct commands to either DO or STOP doing. These are choices. And we make our own choices.

Anyone who thinks they have "chosen" themselves into sinlessness is simply not being truthful with themselves. 1 John 1:8. We can't even be "IN TRUTH" if we are not truthful and honest. And, honestly, we are in fact sinners, all. Whether it shows up on the outside or not. Outside showings only reveal a deeper form of slaveship, but believers can be just as much the raging sinner within as well, just as Paul shows us for himself in 1 Tim. 1:15.

And there are SPIRITUAL REASONS that this happens. We DO have an internal adversary, with an operational will that is against not only us, but everyone. Eph. 6:11-13. To enter into faith brings us head on with this internal adversary, and was in fact the source of Paul's statement of fact in 1 Tim. 1:15, openly sourced and directed to view by Paul in 2 Cor. 12:7. Paul shows us in that that in his own flesh he carried his own, personal, ADVERSARY. Paul does not ask us to "bless that working or worker" but to CONDEMN same, and DIVIDE.

I'm not aware of any believer who isn't aware that all sin originated from the devil.

Yes, "our" sin is demonic. 1 John 3:8. This is the most bitter part of Word's Reality, and the hardest part of all to accept. And it is so because the OTHER PARTY does not want anyone to know this connection, within. IT resists every revealing of God in Christ, even to the blinding of the MINDS of those who can not see. 2 Cor. 4:4. Eph. 2:2.

Christianity's call is unto EXPOSURE and CONDEMNATION of this working, worker, in ALL his ways. There is no "bless me Lord" to any of this matter.

We seek HIS MERCY, always, because of our factual condition. Part of His Mercy is truthful EXPOSURE.

 

[JLB]

Should one always interpret "death" as eternal death in Scripture?

Context dictates.

If one thinks v.15 speaks of eternal death, then any and every sin committed by any and every believer will result in eternal death. How does that make any sense

It makes sense in light of what the scriptures teach....

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

If we confess our sin, He will forgive us....

But let's say, we don't ever confess our sins, because we have been taught that once we are saved, we are always saved, and all the sins we ever commit are already forgiven.

We go through life, without being cleansed of the unrighteousness of our sins, because we were taught that all of our sins we will ever commit are automatically forgiven forever and ever, because once we are saved we are always saved.

Then we form a habit of practicing sexual immorality and become a slave to this lifestyle...

Now this sin, which could have been forgiven and cleansed has become a lifestyle of bondage because...
each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15

Sin that is never dealt with and cleansed, can become full grown and eventually bring forth death.

Confess your sins, one to another that you may be healed.
James 5:16


JLB

 

[JLB]

I do not believe that a born again believer can follow after the desires of the flesh.

each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15

What are we drawn away from, by our own desires, if not from a place of righteousnes to a place of unrighteousness..,From a place of light to a place of darkness. ?

JLB