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1John 3:9 What does it mean?

I do not hear any voice that seeks to justify the entirety of themselves.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
 
smaller said:
The vessel of dishonor is instantly known, by the claim of being "only" a vessel of honor.
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20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21

Paul teaches those who are vessel's of honor are used by the Master for every good work.

I don't see where Paul teaches that those who claim to be a vessel honor, are "instantly known as vessels of dishonor".

Could you elaborate what you mean by this?


JLB
 
We, individually, personally, do have a vessel of dishonor to "personally" divide ourselves from. We are also to HATE that vessel.

"if anyone cleanses himself from the latter"

This is not talking about "me" as opposed to anyone else, but of me in my planting with good and evil, internally.
 
If I lie to myself, and say that "evil present" within me, the vessel of dishonor is exonerated, blessed, under Grace, forgiven, I am only fooling myself.

The vessel of internal evil can be no other than what it is.

Paul again exemplifies this identical matter here, from Galatians 4:

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Abraham himself, the father of faith had TWO SONS, one of honor, Isaac, and one of dishonor, Ishmael.

This is a Divine Expression of Abraham himself, personally, and of each of us as children of faith, who are to see ourselves as Abraham expressed himself in HIS TWO SONS.

Isaac had the SAME TWO SONS. Esau and Jacob.

"he that was born after the flesh who persecutes" and "him that was born after the Spirit" is the personal condition of EVERY individual believer. These TWO stand in each of our respective shoes. There is no way that "he that was born after the flesh, who persecutes" will find any justifications in Gods Eyes.

It is impossible for Ishmael or Esau to be justified by God just as it is impossible for any of us to justify the "vessel of dishonor" in our own flesh.
 
The "son of the natural" always comes before the "son of the Spirit."

First the natural, THEN, the spiritual. The "first son" and the "last Son."
 
Here is the first, natural "son" and the last spiritual "son", in The Order and Way of God:

1 Corinthians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This is the PICTURE of YOU.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The Son of The Spirit can look upon their own natural son and see it for what it is.
 
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The second son (still natural,) the SECOND SON, Jacob, came before his father as a liar, a usurper, literally draped in goat skin, and in effect STOLE the blessing from his elder flesh brother, Esau.

This is AN ALLEGORICAL PICTURE of The Honest Son, the second son, not yet divided from his own present reality.

And in that, Jacob, the second son, was BLESSED, because he was honest before his father.

The "first son" the "natural son" the "elder vessel" the "vessel of dishonor" is to SERVE the Son of the Spirit, the SECOND SON, and be subservient to the second, the latter Son.

We, individually are to RULE over our own first son.

When Jacob laid his own TWO HANDS upon the sons of Joseph, he laid them "wittily" understanding that the eldest son, Manasseh, was not the son of blessing. But it was the younger son, Ephraim, that was to receive THE BLESSINGS OF GOD.
 
smaller said:
If I lie to myself, and say that "evil present" within me, the vessel of dishonor is exonerated, blessed, under Grace, forgiven, I am only fooling myself.

The vessel of internal evil can be no other than what it is.

Paul again exemplifies this identical matter here, from Galatians 4:

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Abraham himself, the father of faith had TWO SONS, one of honor, Isaac, and one of dishonor, Ishmael.

This is a Divine Expression of Abraham himself, personally, and of each of us as children of faith, who are to see ourselves as Abraham expressed himself in HIS TWO SONS.

Isaac had the SAME TWO SONS. Esau and Jacob.

"he that was born after the flesh who persecutes" and "him that was born after the Spirit" is the personal condition of EVERY individual believer. These TWO stand in each of our respective shoes. There is no way that "he that was born after the flesh, who persecutes" will find any justifications in Gods Eyes.

It is impossible for Ishmael or Esau to be justified by God just as it is impossible for any of us to justify the "vessel of dishonor" in our own flesh.
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20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21

This scripture teaches us we can be either a vessel for honor [gold or silver] or a vessel for dishonor [wood or clay].


It's one or the other.

You are now trying to take of your paradox theory, which involves two opposing realities and apply it to what Paul taught us by his use of parabolic imagery, about becoming a vessel for honor, as opposed to being a vessel for dishonor.

Paul does not teach us that we have these two vessels within us, but cleansing ourself of the one, so that we can be the other.

So your statement - those who claim to be a vessel honor, are "instantly known as vessels of dishonor", is simply not true.


JLB

 
The "first" and the "second" are expressed throughout the scriptures.

We can see this same example in Cephas (the hollow stone) and Peter, the second son, the SOLID ROCK.
We can see this in Saul turned to Paul, the second son.
We see it in Abram to Abraham.
We see it in Cain and Abel, the first son and the second son.
We see it in Aaron, the older son, and Moses, the younger son.
In Esau and Jacob. In Manasseh and Ephraim. And in many many other places.

We can even see it in JOB, where "his first children" were destroyed where? Yep, in the home of the ELDER BROTHER.

Job 1:13
And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

We can even see it in Job, where the youngest person present, Elihu, waited until LAST to speak, and corrected the "elders" with the Wisdom of God.

Job 32:
2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
 
JLB said:
.
It's one or the other.

JLB
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The second son, the son of the Spirit, can look upon himself, honestly, and see his own natural son for what it is.

The natural son can not make such honest sights. It is impossible for them to see themselves honestly and quite frankly it is a waste of time to expect them to.
 
FreeGrace said:
The statement about "cannot go on sinning" refers to the fact that the believer cannot sin from his new nature. The believer continues to sin from his human nature, the "old man", the flesh.
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Okay, let's apply your understanding to the passage:

9 No * one who is born of God practices sin (from the new nature, but rather practices sin from the old nature), because His seed abides in him; and he cannot * sin (from the new nature, only from the old nature), because he is born of God. 10 By this (sinning from the old nature, not the new nature) the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother (the one who practices sin from his old nature). (1 John 3:9-10 NASB parenthesis mine)

This still makes the person who sins from his old nature a child of the devil, as opposed to a child of God.
 
smaller said:
So let's see who is honest and who is not so honest.

There are Words of God in Christ that every christian, down to the last believer, FEARS to hear. Yet Jesus has solidly and securely advised us, particularly as believers that we, that what we perceive ourselves to be, shall LIVE by every Word of God. (Luke 4:4 Matt. 4:4)

Not just the Words we like, but by EVERY WORD of God. Should we then find DEATH when we should hear LIFE in every Word?

So, now I stand before God in Christ, fully knowing the DIVINE PARADOX. That the person that is me, is comprised internally of both good and evil. I submit to this reality of God. I submit that I am His subject, made this way, internally. Literally of TWO separate (internal) vessels, one to honor, as a child of God, and one to dishonor, as a vessel of destruction.

Then, at either "my end" or our "collective" end, comes Jesus with these Words:

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

An honest person should say to themselves, yes, I have sinned. I "have" sin as a present tense reality. Sin is iniquity.

Why then would I NOT hear those Words? I expect to, and will DELIGHT in hearing same. Because I understand that

A. I, as a child of God, a vessel of HONOR, I will LIVE by every Word of God.

and

B. the vessel of dishonor in the lump of "me" WILL NOT, but will be damned and condemned, rightfully so. These "vessels" will find their ending in the LoF.

No vessel of dishonor will want to hear those Words. They can not hear. They will not hear. They will fight to their END not to hear. They will in fact run and hide from same Those Words of God. They will insulate and isolate themselves by any means to NOT HEAR those Words.

Yet these are The Words of LIFE.
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Hi smaller, Here is the paradox explained in Scripture (Rom. 7:14-25) and here is the results of no condemnation explained in Scripture (Rom. 8:1).

In Christ
Douglas Summers
 
When any "believer" sees, the role of personal dominion changes or is "reversed."

Here was the prior internal dominion over the "minds and hearts" of every last one of us who believe today:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When we were SAVED, we were placed OVER that prior "internal" mind and heart blinding ruler. We were, in effect, turned AWAY from the power and dominion of Satan.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

But to say that the struggle, the wrestling match was halted, is not true. IN every way Satan is the ruler of the first/natural son, and continues to be so.
 
Douglas Summers said:
Hi smaller, Here is the paradox explained in Scripture (Rom. 7:14-25) and here is the results of no condemnation explained in Scripture (Rom. 8:1).

In Christ
Douglas Summers
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I TOTALLY agree that there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ. None. Not one SPECK.
 
smaller said:
So let's see who is honest and who is not so honest.

There are Words of God in Christ that every christian, down to the last believer, FEARS to hear. Yet Jesus has solidly and securely advised us, particularly as believers that we, that what we perceive ourselves to be, shall LIVE by every Word of God. (Luke 4:4 Matt. 4:4)

Not just the Words we like, but by EVERY WORD of God. Should we then find DEATH when we should hear LIFE in every Word?

So, now I stand before God in Christ, fully knowing the DIVINE PARADOX. That the person that is me, is comprised internally of both good and evil. I submit to this reality of God. I submit that I am His subject, made this way, internally. Literally of TWO separate (internal) vessels, one to honor, as a child of God, and one to dishonor, as a vessel of destruction.
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"7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened." (1 Corinthians 5:7 NASB bold mine)
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Happened to me.
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So you may think. The "honest son" will see himself for what he remains to be. Planted in weakness, corruption, dishonor and in quite a natural body that is and remains "subject to" the intrusions of the TEMPTER.

No dishonest son can stand on this ground.

The fact is you were always a child of God who was intentionally BLINDED by God's placement of a spirit of disobedience/slumber/stupor/darkness when you started your life in this world. When "your tables" were turned, you were given DOMINION in Christ, but the conditions to DOMINATE over have not "yet" disappeared or evaporated for any of us. That will not happen until dishonor, corruption and weakness and the natural body PASS away.

It is on this ground that our mutual HOPE is formed within us all. We are all, WHO SEE God in Christ, children of God, bound with weakness, corruption, dishonor in a natural body. It is both pointless and fruitless to see otherwise. We produce our "fruit" in the ground of WICKEDNESS. It is NOW the "dung" beneath our feet, and yet in our "roots."
 
smaller said:
The second son, the son of the Spirit, can look upon himself, honestly, and see his own natural son for what it is.

The natural son can not make such honest sights. It is impossible for them to see themselves honestly and quite frankly it is a waste of time to expect them to.
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In what Paul teaches in second Timothy 2:20-21, this is not the case as Paul plainly says -

... he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master.


JLB
 
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