Then just make some deep, profound statement and see where it goes.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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1John 3:9 What does it mean?
- Thread starter bcbsr
- Start date
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
Those in Christ who walk after the flesh, are condemned.
Jesus used this word to describe those who do not believe/obey the Gospel.
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16 NKJV
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 KJV
Paul teaches us about Christians who walk after the flesh, to fulfill it's sinful desires, and the result of Christians who do...
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21
John also teaches us about those who do this things as well.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8
JLB
I know two people who were out of control alcoholics of the worst kind, and Jesus healed them instantly and miraculously. They now lead productive lives according to many standards. Some might say that they can still go back at any time, but it has been decades and I don't see it happening. I see people preaching free will and that sin is a free choice. And therefore, walking in the spirit or walking in the flesh is also a free choice. Everybody has a free will according to this teaching. It's like teaching that Godliness is a prerogative rather than a Spirit that decides for us, from within us. So what does unbelieving mean in Revelation 21:8? I don't believe in free will, so that I can believe in deliverance through Christ.
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Paul distinguished between believers, (those who are in Christ) with unbelievers, (those not walking according to the flesh but according to the Spirit). This verse does not support your view.
In order to support your view, find a verse that clearly speaks to the idea that a believer can be removed from being "in Christ".
That would be those who never believed.
As previously proven, the phrase "not inherit the kingdom of God" does not refer to entering the kingdom, but having an inheritance IN the kingdom, per Eph 5:5 - For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
The obvious key here is "unbelieving". Those who never believed.
God's plan is salvation for those who have believed (aorist tense refutes your theory). Those who have believed have been placed in union with Christ per Eph 1:13 and sealed with the Holy Spirit per v.14 and 4:30. There is NO mention of this seal being broken by any means. And this seal is a promise of God for what? The day of redemption.
Furthermore, all believers receive eternal life per 1 Tim 1:16 - Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
If salvation can be lost, removed, taken away, etc, etc, etc, then eternal life really isn't so eternal, is it.
There is no evidence in Scripture of eternal life being removed or taken away from anyone.
Even the failure of King Saul didn't cause him to lose his salvation, as we know from what Samuel told him at a seance:
1 Sam 28:19 - “Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”
Please don't patronize me by saying that all Samuel was telling Saul that he would join Samuel in the grave. No believer, much less the prophet Samuel, would ever make such a stupid statement. He came back from Paradise to tell the idiot Saul that he was going to join him the next day. And that would be in Paradise, in spite of the utter failure of King Saul to do the Lord's will.
That is actually what Paul clearly taught in Romans 6. For example:
v.12,13 - 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
I've underlined the 3 commands that Paul made. Commands are actually choices; we can either consent and obey, or refuse and rebel. Recall Isa 1:19-20 - 19 “If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land; 20 “But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword.” Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
Back to Romans 6:
v.16 - Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Here, Paul makes very clear the choice before every believer; we either present ourselves to slaves of sin, or to slave of obedience.
If it weren't a free choice, then we'd all just be robots or puppets. I call that puppet theology. The Bible doesn't teach that, as Romans 6 clearly shows.
I don't find any logic to your conclusion. Christ delivers (saves) only those who believe in Him. Does God choose who will believe? Where is that found in Scripture?
smaller
Member
Romans 9:
11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ;
IF God has not called, there will be no response.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
This hatred of God was upon Esau before he was even born and did any good or evil.
And conversely, the Love of God was upon Jacob before he was even born and did any good or evil.
Seabass
Member
1) Rom 9:13 is taken from Malachi 1:1-4 which was said centuries AFTER Esau died, not before Esau was born and therefore is not said about the individual Esau. The context in Malachi 1:1-4 is about people/nations and not about individuals. God loved Jacob means God loved Israel. God hated Esau means God hated Edom. It's not uncommon in OT language for a nation to be called after its progenitor, Gen 36:1,8,19
Jer 49:10 Esau had long been dead so this cannot refer to the individual Esau. Esau refers to Edom. Same with Obadiah 1:6.
2) 'hate' as used in bible language can mean love less or have less favor and not just emotional hate Gen 29:30,31; Mt 10:37 cf Luke 14:26
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My question was "does God choose who will believe?" Rom 9:11 does not answer that question. It does mention that election has a purpose, which should be obvious. God certainly doesn't choose randomly.
But Rom 9:11 is a quotation from Mal 1:2-3, which was written 400 yrs AFTER the twins were born, and we know from v.4 that Malachai was referring to Edom, the descendants of Esau, who persistently persecuted Israel, the descendants of Jacob.
Paul quoted Malachai to show that God had chosen the people of Israel as His people, not the descendants of Esau.
And it should be clear from reading the OT that this election could not have been about being chosen for salvation, given the widespread rebellion among the Jews throughout their history.
So again, what verse tells us that one is chosen for salvation?
Here are 6 categories of Biblically described election:
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9
5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 6:70 {included Judas}
6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15
Each of these elections has a specific purpose, and is different from the others. And none were chosen for salvation.
So, where is that idea found, since it's not found in Scripture?
smaller
Member
Yes, God does chose who believes and who does not. And yes, Romans 9 states exactly that premise.
You are certainly welcome to paint the matters however you please, but God did in fact choose to Love Jacob and to hate Esau. How far you want to dig into the matters is progressively interesting. And no, I do not understand the intricacies of who or why anyone comes to believe. I do believe however that it is basically impossible for anyone to believe unless God Himself allows them to call upon Him.
It's actually much more interesting than just that. Paul does elaborate on this particular matter at length AND makes it personal, right down to the last of us and every one of us, individually.
And you see only fleshly Jews. I do not see them that way, but in the Way that Paul describes in Romans 11:8, that it was God Himself who placed upon them the spirit of slumber or stupor, so they COULD NOT hear or see. This same principle is reiterated in many places in the scriptures, from the beginning of man, with Adam.
This "principle" is revealed by Jesus in Mark 4:15. And this is the principle that Paul takes on in all his writings, even to himself, personally.
This same principle is deployed also in the O.T. Here for example:
Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And yes, that IS of THE LORD.
IF "freewill" had any remote semblance of TRUTH, there would be no logical reason in the world why an entire generation of Israelites were ALL destroyed in the desert because of UNBELIEF, save 2. And this after seeing ALL the incredible miracles in their delivery.
There was NOT only 2 people out of an entire generation who had the "freewill" to "cross over" into the promised land. God is in fact showing His Superiority AND His Ways in this matter and it's NOT freewill, but HIS WILL.
And it WAS His Will both to BLIND THEM and to KILL THEM for unbelief.
The question you might ask yourself is this: Even though they died in unbelief, WERE THEY SAVED?
I believe they were ALL saved, because they were (and still ARE!) ALL Gods Children. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt. 23:9. And NEVER has God in Christ abandoned them.
Paul elaborates on this same matter in Romans 11:25-32, showing that ALL of Israel shall be saved, even those who were enemies of the Gospel, as they were MADE SUCH in behalf of US.
So, be thankful for their blindness! And be MERCIFUL to them, for THAT, HIS MERCY raining/reigning down, will be the SIGN of the end and the flood that destroys the world. (Isaiah 54:8-10)
Romans 11:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
Please point out the exact verse that says so. I cannot find anything remotely related to being chosen for salvation.
[Please review Tos 2.4] Paul directly quoted Malachai. He wasn't referring to the twins themselves, but their descendants. Which supports the election of the people of Israel, but obviously not for salvation. Many were rebellious throughout their history.
[Please review Tos 2.4] That's how far. If God chooses who will believe, there should be at least a verse that says so.
Well, it's either that He causes them to, or He allows them to. [Please review Tos 2.4] Of course God allows everyone to call upon Him. Just consider Acts 17:26,27 - 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times (WHEN) and the boundaries of their habitation (WHERE), 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us
I believe these verse are clear that God created mankind to seek Him, and He places everyone WHEN and WHERE He does so that they may SEEK Him. And He is not far from each one of us.
Yes. See Acts 17:26,27.
Know which OT passage Paul was quoting? Isa 6:9,10. Here's how Luke quoted it in Acts 28 - 26saying, ‘Go to this people and say, “You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
27 For the heart of this people has become dull, And with their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes; Otherwise they might see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.”’
Paul's version doesn't actually say that God made them to "not see or hear". And Luke's version DOES say that they closed their own eyes and ears to they couldn't hear. And Luke adds that "otherwise, they might see and hear, and God would heal them".
That is the PRECISE reason. The entire nation failed to trust God. And they suffered the clear consequences for it; physical death rather than entering the promised land. btw, that included Moses himself. Yet, his unbelief was different from the rest of the crowd minus 2; he disobeyed God when told to speak to the rock. He struck the rock instead. For that, he failed to enter the promised land.
Is this a suggestion that God kept them from believing the miracles and not letting them enter the land? That is incredible!! And totally unbelievable.
I never said there were. All of them were free to believe and trust in God's provisions or not. They chose to not believe.
To suggest that it was God's will for the vast majority of the first generation of the Exodus to reject Him is [Please review Tos 2.4] .
Because He wouldn't let them believe, or they chose not to believe? They chose not to believe. Which is the only sane reason He killed them.
I have no doubt about it.
I believe they were because of what Paul said in 1 Cor 10:1-4
"1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ."
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smaller
Member
Well, even you have supposedly "chosen" yourself. I subscribe to this:
1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Reason would seem to "dictate" that since an unbeliever DOES NOT HAVE The Holy Spirit, that they have to be 'given' same in order to 'say.' And that, it would again seem reasonable to see, to reside upon The Giver of same.
Paul does not reference "decendants of Esau," but Esau himself in Romans 9, as hated by God, having done nothing good or evil.
The Call of God is always God's Call. (Isaiah 51:2) As much as "we" like to take credit, after the fact, for ourselves.
Causes.
Were that the case, we wouldn't have these types of situations to observe:
Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Perhaps they might. Perhaps they might not. There is more going on than meets the surface eye. God is every bit ALSO about the present judgment of these matters as well, and this also plays it's role in and on the earth, yet it is largely unseen:
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I don't see man as just man. A person who does not believe obviously has this problem:
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
And that is why the freewill premise can't stand.
We ourselves were under the identical problem, prior to belief:
Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
And it is in fact GOD who has placed or BOUND everyone under this "blinding spirit."
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
And, thusly ONLY GOD in Christ can "unbind" and "unblind." Acts 26:18 shows us that we were "TURNED" from the power of Satan, and unto God in Christ.
God Himself said that in the Deut. 29:4 statement, above. This same position is also reiterated by many of the O.T. prophets as well. To many to cite. The N.T. writers bow to this principle.
I might even observe that there remain many who can NOT see this or hear this. And if they can NOT, it is GOD who has made it so.
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How does one come to such a conclusion? When the gospel was presented to me, I believed it. Then God saved me. All of that is Biblically accurate.
The subject of this passage is spiritual gifts. And v.2 and v.3 are contrasts between unbelievers, who have not the Holy Spirit, and believers who do have the Holy Spirit.
No, reason would dictate looking at what the verse is actually saying.
Paul directly quoted from Mal 1:2,3, who was speaking of descendants of Esau. btw, even Jacob wasn't chosen for salvation. How was he saved? The same way everyone in the OT was saved: by believing in the Messiah.
I've never argued otherwise. This is just preaching to the choir.
I said this: "Well, it's either that He causes them to, or He allows them to. So which side is yours?"
Then your theology can be rightly referred to as puppet theology.
Why would one think any of this is about being chosen for salvation? Moses was speaking to the second generation of Israel, those who were under 20 y/o when the 12 spies went out to spy out the promised land, and the entire first generation (except Joshua and Caleb) believed the stupid majority report, and as a result, forfeited getting into the promised land. v.9 is instructive; if they follow the "terms of this covenant" they "will prosper".
How about reading ch 30 for some insight into free will and God's mercy.
The issue of Acts 17:26,27 is that God has placed everyone in time and place so that men will seek Him. Of course some will and some will not.
Let's back up to 3:15-16; and please note the chronological order presented by Paul: 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Per the order of 2 Cor 3:15-16, I see free will.
This doesn't prove or even support your view. Why would one think so?
Let's actually read that verse: to whom I am sending you, 18to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
If anything, God was sending Paul to open their eyes. That's what the text says. How would Paul actually do that? By preaching the gospel. And how does one "receive forgiveness of sins"? Through belief in Jesus per Acts 10:43.
And how is one sanctified? By faith in Christ.
Romans 6 proves that man has free will. But one must be objectively open to receive what Paul wrote:
v.12,13 - 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
I cannot imagine anyone missing the obvious issue of choice here by the command to "not let sin reign", and "do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin".
v.16 - Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Once again, Paul is telling his audience that we are "presenting ourselves" as slaves, to either:
#1 slaves of sin, resulting in death, or
#2 slaves of obedience, resulting in righteousness.
This is a choice. A free choice. There is no evidence in Scripture that God determines this choice.
Stan1953
Member
John is consistent throughout 1 John 3...he presents a lifestyle of sinning that is not acceptable to one claiming to be a Christian. Contrary to what many claim, we do not become SINLESS when we are saved.
1 John 3:9
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3:8
The one who continues to · sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose—that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, because God’s seed abides in him. He cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:9
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3:8
The one who continues to · sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose—that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, because God’s seed abides in him. He cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
smaller
Member
Unlikely that any of that came about apart from the working of God in Christ, present tense at the time.
It is entirely likely that the "god of this world" who blinds the minds of unbelievers is in fact an evil puppet who can do no other things but that which is evil. John 8:44. And this operation does transpire "in man" via temptations, even within believers. No one makes the tempter "legal" or "obedient" or "under Grace." The other working "in man" is the basis of unmerited Grace and necessitates Gods Involvement within every believer prior to them even being able to believe.
So, yes, unbelievers ARE blinded puppets and are so via the blinding of the mind by the "god of this world." 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and many other scriptural citings.
To think that an entire nation, that of Israel and it's people, were an accidental coalition of individual "freewill" components would be a bizarre conclusion imho.
God in Christ directed Paul to turn people from the power of Satan. Acts 26:18. God in Christ was 'with' Paul, working, in order to perform this. As it pertains to this particular topic, 1 John 3:9, if we observe the workings of the tempter within any believer, we can see how it is that "we" can not sin, yet the other operation/operator can. We have an advocate. Satan, the tempter, does not.
The "veil" is their blindness, induced by the "god of this world" upon their minds, exactly in accord with Mark 4:15's presentation of fact by Jesus. This is a principle of The Word. Where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to sin via theft of Word and the blindness that provokes. That this "activity" transpires 'also' in believers is "evidenced" by our own open extreme separations and divisions.
I suppose anyone would if they can't see or perceive the open declarations of scripture for the Operations of God in Christ or the tempter operating within man. I consider such sights scripturally untenable, and freewill a basic false sight, as it eliminates the other wills.
No one cares to hear that their own sin is in fact "of the devil." Yes, even the mere "thoughts" of sin. Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19, Mark 7:21 and others.
The Pride of the devil in people refuses to submit to this fact of God. 1 John 3:8. And is proof of believers "partial blindness" to these matters.
We are called to "divide" ourselves from that slaveship and it's master, which operation is in fact "internal."
Let me get this straight, you are teaching that a person who is walking according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh is an unbeliever? WOW!!!
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
Sorry but a person who is in Christ and walks according to the Spirit is not an unbeliever.
A person who is in Christ Jesus, but is walking according to the flesh, is not promised to be free from condemnation.
Condemnation or damnation is a reference to being damned along with the unbelievers... those who do not believe will be damned. MK 16:16
The promise of no condemnation is to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh.
Paul teaches this principle to the Church at Galatia.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
People who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will be condemned to the fires of hell. Matthew 25:41
The same warning is giving by Paul in Romans 8:1, to those who are in Christ, but walk in the flesh.
Paul gives the same warning in Romans 6...Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Paul is warning Christians of obeying the desires of the flesh which is sin. Walking in obedience to the flesh will bring about condemnation.
The promise of no condemnation is to those who do not walk after the desires of the flesh to obey them, but to those who walk after the Spirit, to obey the Spirit.
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16
JLB
Is this a disagreement with my statemnet, or what?
So, if an evil puppet, who is pulling his strings? The only answer can be God Himself. That is just plain wrong. And it seems you're entirely comfortable with the idea that man is a puppet, whose strings are pulled by God. Righrt or wrong?
This doesn't make any sense to me. Please re-word.
People are blinded by their own negative volition. Acts 28:26,27 - 26saying, ‘Go to this people and say, “You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; 27 For the heart of this people has become dull, And with their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes; Otherwise they might see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.”’
What does "they have closed their eyes" mean? They did it to themselves. The Bible has a term for it: they "refused to believe" (Acts 14:2, 19:9 NIV) In Rev 2:20, Jezebel "refused to repent".
What I find bizarre is using the words "accidental coalition" in describing Israel. And I have no idea what the phrase "individual freewill components" even refers to. Please clarify.
So Paul did that?
What is the point here? I have no idea.
Let's examine Scripture regarding this veil of blindness. And please notice the chronological order presented by Paul:
2 Cor 3:15,16 - 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
The veil of blindness is removed AFTER one turns to the Lord. Not as Calvinism believes.
Please explain the odd claim that free will "eliminates the other wills". What on earth is that about? How does freedom and opportunity to choose between options eliminate anything???
Really? What verse or passage says this? In fact, Paul was clear about who we present ourselves to as slaves (freedom of choice) in Romans 6.
I said this:
"Paul distinguished between believers, (those who are in Christ) with unbelievers, (those not walking according to the flesh but according to the Spirit). This verse does not support your view."
Rom 8:1 - Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
In your post #120, you quoted Rom 8:1 this way:
"1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
Those in Christ who walk after the flesh, are condemned."
The problem is what was added to Scripture, by the phrase "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit", which does NOT appear in Rom 8:1.
My response was a typo. The parenthesis should have read "those not walking according to the Spirit, but according to the flesh".
Again, there are NO verses that teach that any of these things can be reversed. Why anyone thinks they can is only kidding themselves, and ignoring clear promises of God.
If salvation can be lost, then God is a liar. Plain and simple. Because He has promised or pledged those who have believed with a seal FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. How come you've never bothered to explain Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5?
"Paul distinguished between believers, (those who are in Christ) with unbelievers, (those not walking according to the flesh but according to the Spirit). This verse does not support your view."
OK, let's go back to the verse at hand, to help bring some light to the subject.
Rom 8:1 - Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
In your post #120, you quoted Rom 8:1 this way:
"1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
Those in Christ who walk after the flesh, are condemned."
The problem is what was added to Scripture, by the phrase "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit", which does NOT appear in Rom 8:1.
My response was a typo. The parenthesis should have read "those not walking according to the Spirit, but according to the flesh".
There are no verses to support your claim. And Rom 8:1 doesn't.
Those who never believed (never regenerated, never forgiven, never justified, never given eternal life) will be damned.
Again, there are NO verses that teach that any of these things can be reversed. Why anyone thinks they can is only kidding themselves, and ignoring clear promises of God.
Quit misquoting Scripture.
Same principle as found in Gal 5:5 where Paul warned of having no inheritance IN the kingdom of God. Nothing about loss of salvation.
If salvation can be lost, then God is a liar. Plain and simple. Because He has promised or pledged those who have believed with a seal FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. How come you've never bothered to explain Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5?
Conflating 2 unrelated passages. [Please review ToS 2.4]
There is NOTHING about walking in the flesh in 8:1.
OK, where in ch 6 does Paul warn of loss of salvation? Specifically?
Show the verse that clearly indicates loss of salvation.
Your theology is a works based salvation, no different that that of the Pharisees of Jesus' day. I reject it. Just as your camp rejects all the promises of eternal security.
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smaller
Member
We've done this drill on "freewill" quite a few times now. No "will" that is blinded by the god of this world is free. 2 Cor. 4:4. There was an action of God in Christ "in you" that rebuked this blinder and his blindness "in you and I and everyone who believes" in order for "us" to believe.
Otherwise, without this Divine Intervention of God in Christ, people remain spiritually DEAD and BLINDED within by the "god of this world."
Gods Word prompts Satan to work adversely, as Satan was made by God to do and to perform. Mark 4:15, Prov. 16:4, Col. 1:16 and others.
YEP!
IF God did not intend Satan and his minions to exist, they would not exist.
Man has been Divinely Purposefully been put into and under subjection. 1 Cor. 15:42-49.
Rev. 4:11
Only if we refuse to see or CAN NOT see, that they are blinded by the god of this world.
And, if a person, even a believer, can NOT see this, then they also are presently suffering a lack of sight from that same adverse working, Divinely so.
Even though it is quite plainly seen by others.
Douglas Summers
Member