25 quotes on Calvinism

[GodsGrace]

Willing: Done, given, or accepted voluntarily or ungrudgingly.

When it comes to accepting Christ salvificly it is always done by "willing" people. The deeper question is: who creates and has the power to change a person's will?

John 3:16 ... whosoever believes ... who creates and has the power to change a person's will such that they believe salvificly?

Predestination or "good luck"?

Where does John 3:16 state anything about the power to change a person?

Please show this....


John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”


Please answer my question above.
Where does John 3:16 speak about a person changing?


Also, do you notice that John 3:21 states that HE WHO PRACTICES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT.

Again....nothing about God choosing anyone for salvation....
but HOW man may come to God....
BY PRACTICING THE TRUTH.
HE WHO PRACTICES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT.

 

[GodsGrace]

Willing: Done, given, or accepted voluntarily or ungrudgingly.

When it comes to accepting Christ salvificly it is always done by "willing" people. The deeper question is: who creates and has the power to change a person's will?

John 3:16 ... whosoever believes ... who creates and has the power to change a person's will such that they believe salvificly?

Predestination or "good luck"?

PS
In the reformed soteriological system it IS luck.

Other Christians are free TO CHOOSE God's method by which to be saved.
God is so loving!

 

[brightfame52]

Fastfredy0

When it comes to accepting Christ salvificly it is always done by "willing" people.

Thats correct because its the New Creature that believes in Christ, the old man is still in unbelief

 

[Fastfredy0]

But by your own definition it would no longer be VOLUNTARILY. You see FF, IF it's God making you be saved

God is not "making" you believe against your will. He changes your will so that you willingly (voluntarily) believe with 100% of the time.

If I offer you $1M then I will change your will and you will willingly (voluntarily) take the money. Same idea.

Definition of "make": To cause to exist or happen ... Gods causes (makes) us believe. We do it willingly (voluntarily).


Similarly, Romans 11:32 For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone.
Everyone willingly (voluntarily) disobeys and the cause is God. You never self-determined that your will would have a sin nature. You were given a will that is naturally disobedient. It is not as if you created your own will out of nothing Nothing is what you once were.

We are, as often said, just puppets in God's hands.

I don't think God wants to interact with puppets

You have not bible verse to back you up. You make God into a puppet when it comes to salvation. You say, "I read the rule book (bible) and it says I can control God to the extent that He must adopt me as His child if I just push the right buttons". You control God; you make Him adopt you because of what you think you did independent of God.

Because it's OUR CHOICE to be a part of that Kingdom....

As with your definition of Free Will you don't go deep enough into the concept to understand it. I agree it is our choice to be part of the Kingdom ... the crux of the disagreement is "what is the cause of our choice". You never dive that deeply into the process. Your like a hammer and take credit for the carpentry, never realizing a Carpenter has been causing you to to the carpentry.

Take a deeper dive into the thought process:
God could not foreknow that things would be, unless he had decreed they should be. He cannot “look into the future”, so to speak, to find out what will happen for that would be knowledge acquired from learning; God is immutable and omniscient and therefore cannot learn. Furthermore, from nothing nothing comes and since before creation nothing existed, all knowledge must come from God and the source of His knowledge is His wisdom and ability to cause all things. If God's knowledge of his creatures were derived from the creatures by the impression of anything upon him, as there is upon us, he could not know from eternity, because from eternity there was no actual existence of anything but himself; and therefore there could not be any images shot out from anything, because there was not anything in being but God. Stephen Charnock

Predestination or GoodLuck

 

[Fastfredy0]

Where does John 3:16 state anything about the power to change a person?

It doesn't. That's my point! It simply says if one believes one is saved. The verse does not say what the cause of belief is.

1) For God so loved the world that whosoever believed [due to God's causation] shall have eternal life
or
2) For God so loved the world that whosoever believed [due to self-determination causation] shall have eternal life.

You bias reads into the verse what is not there. You insert [due to self-determination causation] when the verse doesn't give a cause. You believe in 'works salvation' which is contrary to scripture. Definition of work: a mental or physical activity done to achieve a purpose. You even believe one can be saved without knowing Christ; you created a second gospel though you have yet to say how it works. You just insert things into being to tie up loose ends like "everyone has a chance to be saved".

 

[Fastfredy0]

In the reformed soteriological system it IS luck.

You need to read a dictionary. Your statements don't make sense.
Luck: The chance happening of fortunate or adverse events; fortune.

Reformed theology believes God is the cause of all things and therefore they believe there is no such thing as "luck".

You, on the other hand believe you will what your desires are independent of God. How you chose your desires is a "mystery" (luck).

God is so loving!

Definition of Love (agape): to favor (Friendly or favorable regard; approval or support.)
God does not love (favor, approve, support) most people as that vast majority of people will spend eternity in agony (hell).

To understand God as best as one can one must integrate all aspects of His word into a cohesive oneness.
Read some "systematic theology" books. The Roman Catholic author some.... your RC leaning might lead you there.
In you vernacular: Good Luck

 

[GodsGrace]

They are elected, chosen, predestined by the Lord.

WHERE does it state this ??

As to how and why? Only He knows.

Comfy.
Chalk it up to mystery when you can't explain it.

He does not need to explain to us anything.

Interesting.
So why get the OT written by inspiration and the NT by biographical information?

I learned that the entire bible is God's letter to us....
It's knowing about His rapport with us....
How He wants to save us and keep us safe....
When we say we are SAVED .... it's not only from hell, you know.

It's the story of God's relationship with us, His most precious creation.

Seems to me that God is using both the OT and especially the NT to ADVISE us as to HOW to get saved.

God Desires Us To Know Him​

First and foremost, God’s desire is that we would know Him. Not just know about Him, in the same way we know about science or mathematics. God wants us to know Him personally and intimately.
Throughout the Bible, we see God drawing near to people again and again. He revealed Himself to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and the people of Israel.

He made a way for them to fellowship with God and have a close relationship with Him. In the greatest revelation of all, God sent Jesus to show us what He is like.
In John 14:9-11, Jesus said:

He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Why does God reveal Himself to us? So that we would know who God is and what He is like. We can learn some things about God from creation, like that He is powerful, creative, and mighty. But we can’t know that God is loving or holy or full of mercy. He must show these things to us.
Because He loves us and wants us to have a relationship with Him, God reveals Himself to us. Each of us was created to know God and we won’t be satisfied apart from Him. Knowing God is the greatest, most wonderful, most joyful thing.
In Matthew 13:44-46, Jesus spoke of the great value of knowing God:

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

God is the treasure hidden in a field and the pearl of great price. Nothing compares to knowing Him. He is worth more than anything this life has to offer. God desires that each of us should know Him.


Source: https://www.lwf.org/gods-desires-fo...ants us to know,a close relationship with Him.

 

[brightfame52]

GodsGrace

This is why Jesus taught that we have to belong to the Kingdom....
Because it's OUR CHOICE to be a part of that Kingdom....

Actually its Gods choice Lk 1232

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

It was prepared for them from the foundation Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

So your comment here isnt even biblical.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Actually its Gods choice

Definition of choose: to select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out.

You choose God salvificly because He chose you. God chooses to cause you to choose to believe salvificly; no one chooses to believe unless God chooses to cause them to do so. Both man and God chose, it's a matter of the cause of choosing that is the crux of the varying positions of people.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Regeneration

Are there any signs of that having happened ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Where does John 3:16 state anything about the power to change a person?

Right before this section, Jesus clearly explained how the power to change sinners takes place; jn.3
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus explained it is the supernatural work of the Spirit to turn a sinner into a saint.

Also, do you notice that John 3:21 states that HE WHO PRACTICES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT.

Again....nothing about God choosing anyone for salvation....
but HOW man may come to God....
BY PRACTICING THE TRUTH.
HE WHO PRACTICES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT.

So you are now suggesting that ungodly sinners practice truth when the bible teaches the direct opposite?
rom8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

You say these unsaved people can submit to God and practice truth??? Maybe take another look at this conclusion.

 

[Iconoclast]

electedbyhim said:
They are elected, chosen, predestined by the Lord.

WHERE does it state this ??

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Adrian Rogers cannot help here, as he did not understand it.

 

[Iconoclast]

You know what BF?
Sometimes I get tired of debating.
You can have Acts 13:48.

We already had it!

Some things God did predestinate.

Could you name those things, so we know what you mean?

But not who will be saved and who will not.

Sure He did.

Of course God has to DESIRE everything that happens or it will not happen.

Where does it say that?

So, in some way, He created the situation by which the person that desires it, can be saved.

Who are these people? Are they just random persons? Scripture says: no man seeks God, no not one.

It cannot be more clear than in John 3:16 - stated by Jesus Himself.
But the reformed choose to believe what man has taught and not what JESUS HIMSELF has taught.

Every Reformed person believes jn.3...everyone

God desires that no man be lost but that all men come to the saving knowledge of God.
1 Timothy 2:4

The gospel goes worldwide

2 Peter 3:9

This is speaking of the fact that not one of the elect will be lost.

Jesus would have liked Jerusalem to believe in Him,,,,
BUT THEY WERE NOT WILLING.

He was addressing the totally depraved leaders...He says they were not willing, because they are depraved, they would not.

Maybe Fastfredy0 could grace us with his dictionarial knowledge and explain what WILLING means.

two words are used. thelo....desire......bulomai...decreed, destined, and purposed.

God is not partial -
Romans 2:11
Acts 20:34
Leviticus 19:5 (if MAN must be impartial,,,,must not God???)

this has nothing to do with it.

And check this out:

God desires to inform us as to HOW we can be saved...

Ezekiel 18:19-20
19“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?


1. Does the above sound as if God takes pleasure in the death of the wicked?

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but die they will.

2. Thus, why should God desire that ANY man die?

All sin will be punished, in the sinner, or the substitute

3. Does the above seem to you to be instructions on how to be saved?

No...it is mans responsibility...men cannot do this, in order to be saved.

If not why was it written?
Why would I care if I'm responsible for other's sins or not if ANYWAY, it will be God to decide my fate???

We are responsible.

 

[electedbyhim]

Are there any signs of that having happened ?

I will not take the bait.

 

[electedbyhim]

You are wrong.
Paul taught it...
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
If Paul's teachings aren't enough, I have more from Peter and John.

While perfect obedience in the OT was not yet possible, since the resurrection of Christ and rebirth from God's seed it is possible

You have Paul's teachings above.
Here are Peter's...
"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)
I still have John's to go.

Those are called temptations, and even Jesus had them...but since Jesus' resurrection, we have been equipt to resist temptations. (James 4:7)

That verse of 1 John, with verses 6 and 10, address those walking in darkness-sin.
It is the sinners who cannot say they have no sin.
Those who walk in the light-God can say they have no sin, as there is no sin in God. (1 John 1:5)

People who want to call themselves Christians, don't want to keep committing sin.
They could have just converted to Judaism for that.

Telling a member they are wrong goes agianst CF TOS.

You are missing the mark by breaking the rules.

 

[brightfame52]

Definition of choose: to select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out.

You choose God salvificly because He chose you. God chooses to cause you to choose to believe salvificly; no one chooses to believe unless God chooses to cause them to do so. Both man and God chose, it's a matter of the cause of choosing that is the crux of the varying positions of people.

I agree, but I dont believe the elect ever made a choice, God made the choice and as a result they are caused to believe the Truth via the Sanctifying work of the Holy Spirt 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we see the mechanics of it here, Gods choice to Salvation from the beginning, Sanctification of the Spirit, belief of the Truth corresponding to the Call of the Gospel

 

[Iconoclast]

PLEASE explain,,,IF God will pick and choose who will be saved...
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to teach us about the Kingdom of God and how to be a part of it??

Because of sin and death entering at the fall, unsaved men and women cannot understand the things of the kingdom of God, unless the Spirit illuminates a believer, how these things can be.

The reformed faith is man-made because it was INVENTED in the 1,500s AD.

This is not accurate, purely speculative as the basis of reformed faith is rooted in the OT.

True Christianity has been around since soon after Jesus died....that would be 2,000 years.

Maybe you could define for us what you describe as this pure, true Christianity.

WHY would a new teaching from 500 years ago be the correct teaching?

There are many factors that you are ignoring here, that enter into this discussion.

Were all the previous theologians dumb?

Yes, most were. Who were these theologians? Many were illiterate .You cannot just go back and put us into the shoes of people who lived between 100ad-1500 ad. They did not have, google, internet, books, TV, Radio, Commentaries, word study books, interlinears, concordances, bibles,....etc....this makes this point dubious.

If you study the Apostolic Fathers you'll learn that NONE OF THEM believed in predestination.....

They had tons of errors and speculations.

EXCEPT ONE who was born about 400 years after Jesus and who had come to Christianity from gnosticism.

What people glean from anti Calvinists web sites are caricatures and falsehoods. For example, can you list 10 things Augustine wrote that were direct quotes from Gnostic teachings? Go ahead and list them. If you cannot, you would be doing what the bible calls being a tale bearer. [taking something someone said, and not knowing if it is true, then repeating it as if it was true.]

Studying the Fathers is a great practice and brings us to the truth of the NT since they were taught by the Apostles themselves.

This is also not true. What "church father " was taught directly by the apostles? list 10 teachings that they were taught directly by an apostle??? Anyone can create a story until it gets checked out.

You have a doubt about something?
Study the Apostolic Fathers.
The Apostolic Fathers.
When Christianity was still in its pure form.

Not really, it was already being attacked and corrupted in the time of the Apostles.
Acts 20:
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I will not take the bait.

I find it odd that those who beleive in Calvinism all think they will be saved, but can't tell me how they know that .
Is it just faith in Calvin, whose ideas came hundreds of years after the apostles wrote of how we can tell ?
That sounds like faith in Calvin, instead of faith in Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Telling a member they are wrong goes agianst CF TOS.

You are missing the mark by breaking the rules.

You will need to disprove all the scriptures I used in post 119, saying men could live without sinning, to prove your point.

 

[brightfame52]

GodsGrace

21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Correct, and who doeth truth except one who has been regenerated ?Thats who comes to the light, which manifests they have been wrought on by God

Do you think an unregenerate sinner, dead in sin,who loves darkness rather than light, all the sudden begin to practice the truth and comes to the light ??