4004 BC

[Tailgunner]

But God set the sun and the moon in motion in the first day. So if the sun was given to rule over the defined day, and also the moon for a "lesser light" in the night, the only way to say the days were not literally 24 hours, as defined by the orbit set in motion by God, is to say that the sun and moon were much much slower in their orbits around the earth and that in itself creates problems, both astronomically, and also biologically. (plants need to photosynthesize or theyd die if the first "day" was X billion years.....That is quite a light drought for those poor plants, no? You could argue God uses his supernatural command over nature's law to sustain the plants in a state of immortality, I suppose. Still, I defer.

Ashua, I'm speaking here from a position of roughly 24 hour days. If God created plants on the third day, there wouldn't be a problem if the sun wasn't created until the fourth day.

TG

 

[Tailgunner]

perhaps a thread on hebrew block logic thinking vs our linear logic, as those days often build on each other and that is also a literary deviced used by the semites if im correct.

Can't answer to that, Jason. I haven't studied logic.

TG

 

[jasoncran]

Can't answer to that, Jason. I haven't studied logic.

TG

it helps to understand how the creation story is written and that seemingly contradiction on the day of adam's "birth"

 

[Tailgunner]

it helps to understand how the creation story is written and that seemingly contradiction on the day of adam's "birth"

I'm not sure what contradiction you mean, Jason, about the day Adam was created.

TG

 

[jasoncran]

I'm not sure what contradiction you mean, Jason, about the day Adam was created.

TG

lets see here.

genesis 2

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

now then genesis one vs 24 on

And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

which day is it that he made men? day six or day seven.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

......Too ironic. I just referred someone in the science forums abiogenesis thread to this thread to answer one of the many questions directed at me in this fatiguing neverending debate... How fitting that you bring up the high mountain vision in this thread that I must likewise refer you to the abiogenesis thread to receive your answer....

But, as for the Job verse, give me a break. Seriously. I bet in a few thousand years so one who thinks they are being clever when mocking this current age will quote someone saying "the sky is the limit" to "prove" that people in the 21st century still didnt believe in "outter space" . Learn to judge idioms and literary artistry from literal intention.

The only difference is that a flat-earth model was considered normal back in the day, so your analogy falls flat on its face (no pun intended). It would be equivalent of making a statement about the big crunch and then after the big crunch is disproved, claiming it was just an idiom. You are being arbitrary.

 

[Tailgunner]

which day is it that he made men? day six or day seven.

OK, I see what you mean now. In Genesis 1, it states that man was made on the sixth day. God wouldn't have made man on the seventh day, as He did no creative work on that day. Chapter 2 is a summary that gives more detail of what happened on Day 6.

TG

 

[Sparkey]

There are many things that I don't understand. How can all of God's works be completed when I pray to him and ask him to do stuff for me now? It's just the way it is. It doesn't make sense to me because that's not how I do things. I would not respond to my son's flat tire emergency before I got his phone call. Yesterday, I received an answer to prayer that I still don't see then end of. Will I know more tomorrow? Will God?

~Sparrow

 

[jasoncran]

The only difference is that a flat-earth model was considered normal back in the day, so your analogy falls flat on its face (no pun intended). It would be equivalent of making a statement about the big crunch and then after the big crunch is disproved, claiming it was just an idiom. You are being arbitrary.

prove to me by writing that moses and the jews then believed in a flat earth, as one the greeks are the one credited with that, and when the greeks did that, the jews were under rule of persia. the empire that tried to conquer athens so i doubt the jews then would listen to gentiles on what their testament was supposed to say.

gentiles were viewed by jews are worthless. You didnt eat, talk to the gentile , unless you had too.

the ot was put together in greek about the time of 100 yrs aristotile/plato and that was only because of the illeterate hellinstic jews that couldnt speak hebrew.

and also on that note that thinking is the same about as saying that darwin wasnt in favor of eugenics and felt that the toe was agaisnt the black and other colored races. he clearly stated that the negro was a lower species.

i guess he was ignorant of his own toe.


One of the most important yet least-known aspects of Darwin is his racism: Darwin regarded white Europeans as more "advanced" than other human races. While Darwin presumed that man evolved from ape-like creatures, he surmised that some races developed more than others and that the latter still bore simian features. In his book, The Descent of Man, which he published after The Origin of Species, he boldly commented on "the greater differences between men of distinct races". 1 In his book, Darwin held blacks and Australian Aborigines to be equal to gorillas and then inferred that these would be "done away with" by the "civilised races" in time. He said:


At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes... will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla. 2

so please i guess that one was an "idiom" too.

 

[caseagainstfaith]

and also on that note that thinking is the same about as saying that darwin wasnt in favor of eugenics and felt that the toe was agaisnt the black and other colored races. he clearly stated that the negro was a lower species.

Ah, the old, "Darwin was a racist" ad hominem. I suppose it was only a matter of time. By today's standards, you would likely say Darwin was a racist. So was Jefferson and most of the US founding fathers. On the other hand, for his time, Darwin was rather enlightened.

"I have watched how steadily the general feeling, as shown at elections, has been rising against Slavery. What a proud thing for England, if she is the first European nation which utterly abolish is it. I was told before leaving England, that after living in slave countries: all my options would be altered; the only alteration I am aware of is forming a much higher estimate of the Negros character. It is impossible to see a negro & not feel kindly toward him;"

"But I suppose you are all too overwhelmed with the public affairs to care for science. I never knew the newspapers so profoundly interesting. N. America does not do England Justice: I have not seen or heard of a soul who is not with the North. Some few, & I am one, even and wish to God, though at the loss of millions of lives, that the North would proclaim a crusade against Slavery. In the long run, a million horrid deaths would be amply repaid in the cause of humanity. What wonderful times we live in. Massachusetts seems to show noble enthusiasm. Great God how I should like to see the greatest curse on Earth Slavery abolished. "

 

[caseagainstfaith]

prove to me by writing that moses and the jews then believed in a flat earth,

Prove to me that they didn't. We are talking about a time when people were not very educated. This isn't an ad hominem, its simply a fact. I don't know my history of when various facts were discovered, and who might have known that the earth was a sphere, but, its never been the case, then or now, that the average populace was terribly up on current science.

 

[jasoncran]

Ah, the old, "Darwin was a racist" ad hominem. I suppose it was only a matter of time. By today's standards, you would likely say Darwin was a racist. So was Jefferson and most of the US founding fathers. On the other hand, for his time, Darwin was rather enlightened.

"I have watched how steadily the general feeling, as shown at elections, has been rising against Slavery. What a proud thing for England, if she is the first European nation which utterly abolish is it. I was told before leaving England, that after living in slave countries: all my options would be altered; the only alteration I am aware of is forming a much higher estimate of the Negros character. It is impossible to see a negro & not feel kindly toward him;"

"But I suppose you are all too overwhelmed with the public affairs to care for science. I never knew the newspapers so profoundly interesting. N. America does not do England Justice: I have not seen or heard of a soul who is not with the North. Some few, & I am one, even and wish to God, though at the loss of millions of lives, that the North would proclaim a crusade against Slavery. In the long run, a million horrid deaths would be amply repaid in the cause of humanity. What wonderful times we live in. Massachusetts seems to show noble enthusiasm. Great God how I should like to see the greatest curse on Earth Slavery abolished. "

doesnt matter, he was what he was and when was that written?

slavery in england was abolished in 1772.

and the book the descent of man was written in........ 1874

so your point is? may be had realised an opps and was challenged to change. but he did say that in a book

one hundred yrs after the fact of the slavery was outlawed in england.

so then why would he say that.

 

[caseagainstfaith]

doesnt matter, he was what he was

Ah, so you know what you know and other facts are immaterial.

Jefferson said something about how apes want to mate with negros or something like that. I don't remember the exact quote. So, we can just throw out everything he ever wrote? He's a racist, that's it, right?

You Christians always cry "context". If skeptics point out the barbarity of the OT, we are told we need to keep in mind the "context", the culture of the time.

But, when it comes to Darwin, forget context, he said something racist, so, that's it, end of story. Yes, he said some racist things. Congratulations! You win!

Thanks for help prove my points on Christian hypocrisy !

 

[Gendou Ikari]

prove to me by writing that moses and the jews then believed in a flat earth, as one the greeks are the one credited with that, and when the greeks did that, the jews were under rule of persia. the empire that tried to conquer athens so i doubt the jews then would listen to gentiles on what their testament was supposed to say.

gentiles were viewed by jews are worthless. You didnt eat, talk to the gentile , unless you had too.

the ot was put together in greek about the time of 100 yrs aristotile/plato and that was only because of the illeterate hellinstic jews that couldnt speak hebrew.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

In early Egyptian[8] and Mesopotamian thought the world was portrayed as a flat disk floating in the ocean. A similar model is found in the Homeric account of the 8th century BCE in which "Okeanos, the personified body of water surrounding the circular surface of the Earth, is the begetter of all life and possibly of all gods."[9]

The Hebrew Bible carried forward the ancient Middle Eastern cosmology, such as in the Enuma Elish, which described a circular earth with a solid roof, surrounded by water above and below,[10][11] as illustrated by references to the "foundations of the earth" and the "circle of the earth" in the following examples:

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."[12]
"For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's; upon them he has set the world."[13]
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."[14]

There are isolated quotations which can be taken as evidence of something different:

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing."[15]

but these are complicated by references to "pillars of the heavens" in subsequent stanzas.

and also on that note that thinking is the same about as saying that darwin wasnt in favor of eugenics and felt that the toe was agaisnt the black and other colored races. he clearly stated that the negro was a lower species.

i guess he was ignorant of his own toe.


One of the most important yet least-known aspects of Darwin is his racism: Darwin regarded white Europeans as more "advanced" than other human races. While Darwin presumed that man evolved from ape-like creatures, he surmised that some races developed more than others and that the latter still bore simian features. In his book, The Descent of Man, which he published after The Origin of Species, he boldly commented on "the greater differences between men of distinct races". 1 In his book, Darwin held blacks and Australian Aborigines to be equal to gorillas and then inferred that these would be "done away with" by the "civilised races" in time. He said:


At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes... will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla. 2

so please i guess that one was an "idiom" too.

Charles Darwin probably was a racist. Most of the people back in the day were racists. I do not know much about Darwin. Nor do I care that much about him. You are thinking with an inerrantist mind and applying that to non-believers. I do not feel the need to believe that my intellectual heroes (not that Darwin is one of my heroes) were perfect. I am an ardent Keynesian when it comes to Economics, but Keynes went to third-world countries and paid for prostitute boys (i.e. lowest was 16-years of age - disgusting).

Okay, so now that I've accepted Darwin as a racist, can we stop all this play and just admit that the Tanach (Old Testament) supports a flat-earth?

 

[jasoncran]

Ah, so you know what you know and other facts are immaterial.

Jefferson said something about how apes want to mate with negros or something like that. I don't remember the exact quote. So, we can just throw out everything he ever wrote? He's a racist, that's it, right?

You Christians always cry "context". If skeptics point out the barbarity of the OT, we are told we need to keep in mind the "context", the culture of the time.

But, when it comes to Darwin, forget context, he said something racist, so, that's it, end of story. Yes, he said some racist things. Congratulations! You win!

Thanks for help prove my points on Christian hypocrisy !

really? i know that full well what jefferson did. i never said that but that he was racist.i dont pull punches on what the men were at the time. just returning the favor you all like to do.

as well that was after the law written,

but that is also what you all claimed on the bible believing jews that wrote the ot were all flat earthers.

and it has to only be flat earthers. when in fact what did the jews then actually believe?

show me any ancient hebrew commentary prior to daniel the prophet.

prove me wrong.

show me one hebrew text on creation that states the earth is a flat earth and not stated in the bible,.as i'm believe the ot priests did teach and preach.

how also was the torah, tanakh taught?

 

[jasoncran]

Quoting from Wikipedia:

In early Egyptian[8] and Mesopotamian thought the world was portrayed as a flat disk floating in the ocean. A similar model is found in the Homeric account of the 8th century BCE in which "Okeanos, the personified body of water surrounding the circular surface of the Earth, is the begetter of all life and possibly of all gods."[9]

The Hebrew Bible carried forward the ancient Middle Eastern cosmology, such as in the Enuma Elish, which described a circular earth with a solid roof, surrounded by water above and below,[10][11] as illustrated by references to the "foundations of the earth" and the "circle of the earth" in the following examples:

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."[12]
"For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's; upon them he has set the world."[13]
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."[14]

There are isolated quotations which can be taken as evidence of something different:

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing."[15]

but these are complicated by references to "pillars of the heavens" in subsequent stanzas.

so that its is that from the hebrew themselves, not some archeologist saying the what the jews believed.

that is like saying the jews believed what some other culture believed because they traded with them

we trade with islamic nation does that mean we believe as they do?

think about what you said. is it possible yes, but does that mean that the verse itself supports that.

ashuas defense is well said in hebrew things arent so easily translated

 

[Deavonreye]

Also, I proposed the position that God created an "Adult" universe and an "Adult" earth that was set to support an "Adult Adam and Eve. This would be the logical conclusion, and one completely consistent with what the Bible says about his creation of adult Adam, who at no time was an embryo, fetus, infant, or child.

People will reject that, but there is no grounds to say it is contradictory of the Biblical position. They'd rather throw hissy fits and shout loudly that it is a "cop out" in hopes that by means of volume, and repetition, it will make it so.

There are paramount issues with a deity creating an "adult universe/earth". I hope it would be easy to see.

 

[Tailgunner]

There are paramount issues with a deity creating an "adult universe/earth". I hope it would be easy to see.

That's true, Deavonreye, but I see some issues with a 14 billion year old universe and the resulting development into that which now is. For example, cause and effect. What caused the big bang? Who or what caused matter itself to come into existence? If there were no cause, then why does anything exist at all?

I've read some of the explanations. A singularity (getting out of my league, because I'm not a physicist) that somehow reached a critical point and exploded, and thus began the universe. But it doesn't answer anything. What caused it?

TG

 

[Deavonreye]

That "singularity" theory may be a bit outdated. I believe that the newest thought has an eternal universe of seemingly infinite time frames. In other words, if time is infinite into the future, it must also be infinite going back in time as well. And a universe that goes through phases . There are a variety of possibilities, of course, none of which could be tested, . . . but the contraction-expansion theory, that the universe goes through these phases every so often [in universal terms, 100's of billions of years]. Another theory talks about multiverses.

As for "the earth/universe being created with age", I find that far more problematic.

 

[Tailgunner]

If you're talking about the Steady State theory of the universe, I thought that theory had long since been abandoned due to the problems that arise with the laws of thermodynamics. If the universe had existed from eternity, then it would have long ago reached near total entropy. Also, it seems the expansion-contraction scenario suffers from the same problem with violation of thermodynamic law, eventually. Wouldn't it at some point just run down?

TG