4004 BC

[Ashua]

I don't even see the need for Christians to defend the 6,000 year-old Creationist position. Christians no longer defend the idea of a flat-earth, do not defend polygamy (which the Tanach/OT advocates) and generally do not believe that women are less valuable and subservient to the commands of men. I wonder why it is so hard for some Christians to accept modern science. I know many Christians who believe in evolution.

Why don't you be honest and separate the Christian religion of the Bible from the "holy roman catholic church" of the roman empire? The Bible never states the Earth is flat.

As for ethnographic norms, why don't you also get off the 21 century pc elitism and realize that cultural anthropological standards of the great civilizations of history are not "less valuable and subservient to the" commands and judgments of the modern era.


To no one person in particular:

But that is what this really has always been about, hasn't it? Not about logic, reason, evidence, interpretation, proves, conclusiveness, striving to exhaust all things and thereby arrive at an absolute end; namely "true" truth.
No, it is a people reigned by emotions. People who rebuke their fathers (or as the PC would have it, mothers) Those who believe their philosophy and social conditioning is innately superior to the former. Why? Because we are farther in the future are we of any significant "progress?" Why is it that we have to be "evolving" and not "devolving" as a people? The dark ages were superior on the time line to antiquity; but inferior in much every way.

You speak in absolutes; as one with authority to govern and to bare judgment; and as if bearing some birth right to stand over every generation's moral standing time immemorial. Why do you judge your forbears? Do you not know you are every bit as ignorant as they? Don't deceive yourselves: You will be judged by your own children for the things which they will embrace that you would not. You shall stand convicted of ignorance concerning that thing allowed by a generation that has not yet been conceived.

This is a case of ethnocentrism, plain and simple.

 

[Tailgunner]

Frank Klassen was an engineer - an architect by trade. He drew a graphic timeline of Bible history. He said that history is well documented from the time of Alexander until today. He worked backwards from then using mostly the timetable taken from the Bible and found that Adam was created on Friday April 1st 3975BC. He also calculated that Jesus was born on April 1st 5BC. The veil of the temple was also hung on April 1st - can't remember the year. The veil was a symbol of Christ's body.

His book "The Chronology of the Bible" has been out of print for sometime. It came out in the Mid 70's. If you look around you can usually find a used copy of it. It is interesting to see the graphical timelines as well as the blood line to the Messiah.

This is one of my most valued books. I have never had a problem with it and I still use it fequently.


Amazon.com: Used and New: The chronology of the Bible
Larry

Interesting, Jasher. I'll have to have a look at that book. The date that Archbishop Ussher gives is 4004 BC. Actually, he's just as specific, giving the time of creation as the evening before Sunday, October 23, 4004 BC (Julian date). Using the Gregorian calendar, this would have been the evening before Sunday, September 21, which was the first Sunday past the autumnal equinox for that year.

His book "The Annals of the World" was published in 1658. I have a copy of it - fascinating reading. I'm inclined to think that between Klassen and Ussher, we have a reasonably accurate dating.

For those who have already argued in favor of earth being roughly 4.5 billion years old, I understand why you think so. But for the Christians following this thread, just a thought: Jesus, Matthew, Peter, Paul, Luke, Jude, and the author of Hebrews took the Genesis account literally. Refer to the following verses...

Matt. 24:37-39; Luke 3:38, 17:26-27; Rom. 5:14; 1 Corinth. 15:22, 45; 1 Tim. 2:13-14; Heb. 11:17; 1 Pet. 3:20; 2 Pet. 2:5; Jude 14.

These verses include not only references to Adam, but also Noah and the Flood.

TG

 

[jasoncran]

perhaps you should read what ashua stated, we dont know how long the earth stayed in the lifeless shape before life was put on it.

keep in mind while the creation account is literal to the christian theres not much to go on as far as how and when the universe was created.

 

[Ashua]

perhaps you should read what ashua stated, we dont know how long the earth stayed in the lifeless shape before life was put on it.

keep in mind while the creation account is literal to the christian theres not much to go on as far as how and when the universe was created.

Well, I said we do not know if the totality of the universe and the earth was created simultaneously at the same time in the week of creation.

The greater expanse of the universe could have been created progressively according to the good will of God over the past 21903721907312047127423749023749237423747239048902389040023702347023470 years for all we know before the last 6,000 when Earth was formed. He may have even made "beta" worlds that have long past away. This is all vague possibility. I am certainly not promoting such a position. I have zero evidence to suggest that God has ever made a world before Earth outside of "Heaven"

Also, I proposed the position that God created an "Adult" universe and an "Adult" earth that was set to support an "Adult Adam and Eve. This would be the logical conclusion, and one completely consistent with what the Bible says about his creation of adult Adam, who at no time was an embryo, fetus, infant, or child.

People will reject that, but there is no grounds to say it is contradictory of the Biblical position. They'd rather throw hissy fits and shout loudly that it is a "cop out" in hopes that by means of volume, and repetition, it will make it so.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Why don't you be honest and separate the Christian religion of the Bible from the "holy roman catholic church" of the roman empire? The Bible never states the Earth is flat.

And the double standards begin. When it suits your preconceived beliefs you are willing to take a literalistic interpretation of the Bible, but when it doesn't you are more than willing to take the words as symbolism.

Job 38:13 (King James Version)
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Matthew 4:8 (King James Version)
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

To no one person in particular:

But that is what this really has always been about, hasn't it? Not about logic, reason, evidence, interpretation, proves, conclusiveness, striving to exhaust all things and thereby arrive at an absolute end; namely "true" truth.
No, it is a people reigned by emotions. People who rebuke their fathers (or as the PC would have it, mothers) Those who believe their philosophy and social conditioning is innately superior to the former. Why? Because we are farther in the future are we of any significant "progress?" Why is it that we have to be "evolving" and not "devolving" as a people? The dark ages were superior on the time line to antiquity; but inferior in much every way.

You speak in absolutes; as one with authority to govern and to bare judgment; and as if bearing some birth right to stand over every generation's moral standing time immemorial. Why do you judge your forbears? Do you not know you are every bit as ignorant as they? Don't deceive yourselves: You will be judged by your own children for the things which they will embrace that you would not. You shall stand convicted of ignorance concerning that thing allowed by a generation that has not yet been conceived.

This is a case of ethnocentrism, plain and simple.

I am always telling people that in the future we will be judge as barbaric. Hopefully, rights will continue to expand along the humanist continuum, and when technology allows, vegetarianism will become the norm. We will surely be judged barbaric by our descendent. The important thing is that we push the frontiers of morality, and not set ourselves up in the reactionary camp. If my belief that mutilating the genitals of girls for some idiotic conception of beauty/purity/ritual is evil, is ethnocentrism than I am an ethnocentrist. However, I am highly critical of many aspects of Western culture. I simply advocate that humanistic values apply to people everywhere, irrespective of culture. Western culture merely expresses a higher degree of humanism than most of the world.

 

[Tailgunner]

perhaps you should read what ashua stated, we dont know how long the earth stayed in the lifeless shape before life was put on it.

keep in mind while the creation account is literal to the christian theres not much to go on as far as how and when the universe was created.

Jason, I read the entire thread. It's my position that God made the entirety of everything in six days. As stated in Genesis 1:11-13, that would have meant that the first life to appear on earth would have been plant life, on the third day.

I think a literal reading of Genesis is necessary to the rest of the Bible, because if you don't read it as written, you run into the problem of having to decide in your own mind which of the Bible is true, and which is not. There is nothing in the first few chapters of Genesis that leads me to believe it's allegorical, because it's written as a straightforward account of what occurred. Since I believe the New Testament, I have great confidence also in the Old Testament.

TG

 

[jasoncran]

let me ask you this, where in the bible that men have been on the earth merely six thousand yrs?

think about, that is why i said read what ashua said about the jewish way or lineage.

how long was it into adam's life was seth, 100yrs or 500yrs?

that is what i see with your idea, yes i do believe that he created it all in six days but first day is spoken like this

in the beggining God created the heavens and the earth,
now the the earth was void and without form.

delineate that and how long it was without form?

 

[jasoncran]

Well, I said we do not know if the totality of the universe and the earth was created simultaneously at the same time in the week of creation.

The greater expanse of the universe could have been created progressively according to the good will of God over the past 21903721907312047127423749023749237423747239048902389040023702347023470 years for all we know before the last 6,000 when Earth was formed. He may have even made "beta" worlds that have long past away. This is all vague possibility. I am certainly not promoting such a position. I have zero evidence to suggest that God has ever made a world before Earth outside of "Heaven"

Also, I proposed the position that God created an "Adult" universe and an "Adult" earth that was set to support an "Adult Adam and Eve. This would be the logical conclusion, and one completely consistent with what the Bible says about his creation of adult Adam, who at no time was an embryo, fetus, infant, or child.

People will reject that, but there is no grounds to say it is contradictory of the Biblical position. They'd rather throw hissy fits and shout loudly that it is a "cop out" in hopes that by means of volume, and repetition, it will make it so.

a position i can agree with.

 

[Tailgunner]

let me ask you this, where in the bible that men have been on the earth merely six thousand yrs?

think about, that is why i said read what ashua said about the jewish way or lineage.

how long was it into adam's life was seth, 100yrs or 500yrs?

that is what i see with your idea, yes i do believe that he created it all in six days but first day is spoken like this

in the beggining God created the heavens and the earth,
now the the earth was void and without form.

delineate that and how long it was without form?

Jason, Genesis 5:3 says that after Adam had lived 130 years, Seth was born. Of course, we know that Cain and Abel were born much sooner, but Seth was the link in the genealogy.

As to the earth being without form, and void, yes, it was. I can't answer your question as to how long it was without form, but after a glance at Genesis, I would say it was probably the second or third day, definitely by the third day.

TG

 

[jasoncran]

thus ashua's point the earth as rocks and so forth is alot older possibly, that is what i mean

 

[Ashua]

And the double standards begin. When it suits your preconceived beliefs you are willing to take a literalistic interpretation of the Bible, but when it doesn't you are more than willing to take the words as symbolism.

Job 38:13 (King James Version)
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Matthew 4:8 (King James Version)
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;



I am always telling people that in the future we will be judge as barbaric. Hopefully, rights will continue to expand along the humanist continuum, and when technology allows, vegetarianism will become the norm. We will surely be judged barbaric by our descendent. The important thing is that we push the frontiers of morality, and not set ourselves up in the reactionary camp. If my belief that mutilating the genitals of girls for some idiotic conception of beauty/purity/ritual is evil, is ethnocentrism than I am an ethnocentrist. However, I am highly critical of many aspects of Western culture. I simply advocate that humanistic values apply to people everywhere, irrespective of culture. Western culture merely expresses a higher degree of humanism than most of the world.

......Too ironic. I just referred someone in the science forums abiogenesis thread to this thread to answer one of the many questions directed at me in this fatiguing neverending debate... How fitting that you bring up the high mountain vision in this thread that I must likewise refer you to the abiogenesis thread to receive your answer....

But, as for the Job verse, give me a break. Seriously. I bet in a few thousand years so one who thinks they are being clever when mocking this current age will quote someone saying "the sky is the limit" to "prove" that people in the 21st century still didnt believe in "outter space" . Learn to judge idioms and literary artistry from literal intention.

 

[Ashua]

thus ashua's point the earth as rocks and so forth is alot older possibly, that is what i mean

You know how people say if you are 30 years old, but a hard drinker and an heavy smoker that your "true age" is like 55? That is what I am saying.

The Earth is 6-7 thousand years old in terms of time line, but it is in an "artificially advanced" age, well "beyond its years".

 

[Tailgunner]

thus ashua's point the earth as rocks and so forth is alot older possibly, that is what i mean

Yes, I know what you mean, and what Ashua means also. I'm merely saying that I don't think the days of creation were indeterminate ages. It says after each day that the evening and the morning were the first day, second day, etc. I'll take that at face value, because it's what God's Word says.

TG

 

[jasoncran]

Yes, I know what you mean, and what Ashua means also. I'm merely saying that I don't think the days of creation were indeterminate ages. It says after each day that the evening and the morning were the first day, second day, etc. I'll take that at face value, because it's what God's Word says.

TG

i say that as we cant really state the earth alone is young as gospel truth, to include the age of the universe.

 

[jasoncran]

You know how people say if you are 30 years old, but a hard drinker and an heavy smoker that your "true age" is like 55? That is what I am saying.

The Earth is 6-7 thousand years old in terms of time line, but it is in an "artificially advanced" age, well "beyond its years".

that is crying rocks position as he was biblical literalist but also an old earth creationist.

and also a paleoarcheologist.

 

[Ashua]

Yes, I know what you mean, and what Ashua means also. I'm merely saying that I don't think the days of creation were indeterminate ages. It says after each day that the evening and the morning were the first day, second day, etc. I'll take that at face value, because it's what God's Word says.

TG

But God set the sun and the moon in motion in the first day. So if the sun was given to rule over the defined day, and also the moon for a "lesser light" in the night, the only way to say the days were not literally 24 hours, as defined by the orbit set in motion by God, is to say that the sun and moon were much much slower in their orbits around the earth and that in itself creates problems, both astronomically, and also biologically. (plants need to photosynthesize or theyd die if the first "day" was X billion years.....That is quite a light drought for those poor plants, no? You could argue God uses his supernatural command over nature's law to sustain the plants in a state of immortality, I suppose. Still, I defer.

 

[Ashua]

that is crying rocks position as he was biblical literalist but also an old earth creationist.

and also a paleoarcheologist.

still confused. When I hear "old age creationist" I think in terms of true, chronological age.

I consider myself a young earth creationist who believes in a (extremely) prematurely aged planet.

 

[jasoncran]

still confused. When I hear "old age creationist" I think in terms of true, chronological age.

I consider myself a young earth creationist who believes in a (extremely) prematurely aged planet.

no. i am like him in that sense.

 

[Tailgunner]

i say that as we cant really state the earth alone is young as gospel truth, to include the age of the universe.

In Genesis 1:1, it says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...". I take the heavens to mean the cosmos as a whole. Or, perhaps, it's just an introductory statement that doesn't mean He created the heavens (universe, or cosmos) on the first day. However, in Genesis 1:14-19, on the fourth day He created lights in the expanse of the heavens to be for signs and seasons, He created the greater light (sun) to rule the day, and the lesser light (moon) to rule the night. And he created the stars also. Perhaps the earth predates the rest of the universe?

TG

 

[jasoncran]

In Genesis 1:1, it says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...". I take the heavens to mean the cosmos as a whole. Or, perhaps, it's just an introductory statement that doesn't mean He created the heavens (universe, or cosmos) on the first day. However, in Genesis 1:14-19, on the fourth day He created lights in the expanse of the heavens to be for signs and seasons, He created the greater light (sun) to rule the day, and the lesser light (moon) to rule the night. And he created the stars also. Perhaps the earth predates the rest of the universe?

TG

perhaps a thread on hebrew block logic thinking vs our linear logic, as those days often build on each other and that is also a literary deviced used by the semites if im correct.