7000 Years is Not Enough

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, that is crystal clear. But then you say yourself that you have to make a judgment call on what the 120 year life span that God commanded in Genesis 6 could mean. Somehow you understand that as being crystal clear, but you claim to be making just a judgment call. That doesn't ring true to me and certainly would preclude any claim of crystal clarity.

Then you may have to make a judgement call on what “crystal clear” means to you. It simply can’t be human life span since many patriarchs lived far longer than that, before or after the Flood, Abraham for example lived 175 years, then went down to 70-80 on average. If you still insist it’s about life span, well, God bless and have peace.

I'm sorry, I must have not been clear. Yes, the new Jerusalem will come down from heaven upon the 'new' earth that God pretty much created immediately preceding the coming down from heaven of the city.

Not really. Rev. 21:1-2 only says that New Jerusalem descends from heaven, doesn’t say it will land “upon the new earth.” What if the New Jerusalem IS the new earth? Even if it does descend upon the new earth, we don’t know what it would be like, whether it will operate like the old one, it’s all speculation.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

Hi Jarhead4Jesus

Well, I honestly disagree that Scripture gives us some useful template regarding the end of days for this realm. Scripture doesn't make anything clear about that. Man has read the Scriptures where it says that God established the week of days and then jumped over to where God's word has said that a day is like unto a thousand years. Then with man's logic we have extrapolated from those two bits that the entire length of days of the creation will be based on the week of 6 days for work and the seventh as a Sabbath rest.

Now, that may be true, but I don't find that the Scriptures make it particularly clear that it is. It may also be untrue and the end of this age comes at the time that God has established and it has nothing to do with the 7 day week. And honestly, all of those things you list as adding up to your total number of days for the duration of this realm just seem like a bit of nonsense to me. That we add a year just because there are years? So, I've already posted my question regarding your list of 'how' God is adding up the time unto the end and if you want to start a discussion, then that's the thing that I'm questioning the most regarding your treatise.

Looks like we're approaching this from two very different starting points. Our concepts of time, and how scripture relates to it, do not seem to have much in common.

All that I can suggest, if you're interested, is that the next time you're reading through scripture add it up for yourself.

I'm certain that I cannot convince you of anything. Regardless, what I have shared in these posts are my findings from scripture.

 

[miamited]

Not really. Rev. 21:1-2 only says that New Jerusalem descends from heaven, doesn’t say it will land “upon the new earth.” What if the New Jerusalem IS the new earth? Even if it does descend upon the new earth, we don’t know what it would be like, whether it will operate like the old one, it’s all speculation.

That's actually true! So why are you 'discussing' so diligently that your way is right? And again if we don't know what it will be like, what is it yet that you are claiming is so crystal clear? Getting back to the discussion of how many years this realm of God's creating might exist.

 

[miamited]

Hi again Carry_Your_Name

In Psalm 90 we read of an establishment of man's years be further reduced 3 score and 10. Is that correct?

Does everyone you know die on there 70th birthday? Consider that because of the dire consequences of allowing sin to just continue to manifest unabated God seems to have slowly reduced the punishment that our bodies would allow us to overcome our sin. It began eternal, but Adam died over 900 years old. In fact, Adam was only just dead when the flood came. Well, by a couple of hundred years. I believe it was Methuselah of the generations of Adam that was the last to die before the flood came. Which of course logically shortened all of the other family clans who died in the flood. Then God established one hundred and twenty years. But no, just as today, they didn't all die at 120 years of age any more than we all die today at 70.

I get your point and it's certainly worth a look, but I don't see that this 120 number is much different than the 70 number that we have today. And that there would be some significance to relate it to some future existence of God's creation. And to be honest, I'm always a bit skeptical of number puzzles to work out God's intentions. I understand them when they're given in the Scriptures, such as all the numbers that Daniel and other prophets used about future events, but I just don't see the tie in here.

Just sayin'

 

[miamited]

Hey Jarhead4Jesus

All that I can suggest, if you're interested, is that the next time you're reading through scripture add it up for yourself.

I've done that. Up until the takeover of the land of Israel. From there I have trusted what I've found and verified concerning the passage of time recording. I believe we have fairly accurate records of the ages and dates of the judges and then the kings of Israel. And carrying right into the Intertestamental period. From there we are pretty sure, from the Gregorian calander how many years have passed. I've always come up with a number about 200 off of the number calculated by the Jewish calander. And I've always allowed that such an insignificant number just lengthens the days that we must be watching. For more signs to be manifest in the world that God's word has told us that we will be seeing up until the very last of days, the tribulation of the saints. So I watch. With eye cocked to the future and ear listening to the rumbles of the earth.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

That's actually true! So why are you 'discussing' so diligently that your way is right? And again if we don't know what it will be like, what is it yet that you are claiming is so crystal clear? Getting back to the discussion of how many years this realm of God's creating might exist.

I suppose that the point is, scripture gives us a ton of information concerning God's plan for humanity. Research reveals that He has also provided a contiguous timeline from Genesis to the Revelation; With multiple paths from some events to others. That's the information that I'm trying to share here. Specifically, what does the Bible provide for its timeline, without regard to other sources.

Since you've done this for yourself, what year do you suppose for the exodus?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hi again Carry_Your_Name

In Psalm 90 we read of an establishment of man's years be further reduced 3 score and 10. Is that correct?

Does everyone you know die on there 70th birthday? Consider that because of the dire consequences of allowing sin to just continue to manifest unabated God seems to have slowly reduced the punishment that our bodies would allow us to overcome our sin. It began eternal, but Adam died over 900 years old. In fact, Adam was only just dead when the flood came. Well, by a couple of hundred years. I believe it was Methuselah of the generations of Adam that was the last to die before the flood came. Which of course logically shortened all of the other family clans who died in the flood. Then God established one hundred and twenty years. But no, just as today, they didn't all die at 120 years of age any more than we all die today at 70.

I get your point and it's certainly worth a look, but I don't see that this 120 number is much different than the 70 number that we have today. And that there would be some significance to relate it to some future existence of God's creation. And to be honest, I'm always a bit skeptical of number puzzles to work out God's intentions. I understand them when they're given in the Scriptures, such as all the numbers that Daniel and other prophets used about future events, but I just don't see the tie in here.

Just sayin'

This is a strawman argument, making an outlandishly exaggerated version of your opponent’s words. Ps. 90:10 gives a RANGE - 70 to 80 years, not fixed numbers of 70 and 80. An average life expectancy of 70-80 fits the statistics of male life expectancy, that is not a mere coincidence, it proves the bible's true and trustworthy. You may believe that life expectancy would increase to 120 in the future as science and technology advances, but that's just wishful thinking - life expectancy has declined in recent years due to the pandemic, drug abuse, unnatural diet, pollution, violence and loneliness, according to official statistics, male life expectancy data across the country all falls in within this range of 70-80. Therefore, 120 as life expectancy doesn’t match either biblical record or reality, 70-80 does.

U.S. State Life Expectancy at birth by Sex, 2020

National Center for Health Statistics

www.cdc.gov

 

[miamited]

This is a strawman argument, making an outlandishly exaggerated version of your opponent’s words.

Because I asked if everyone you knew died at 70? Ok. Sorry. If you'd like to explain a bit more about how you make the Spiritual tie-in with the 120 years here and that there will then be 120 Jubilees. As I see it God is reducing the general life of mankind in both cases.

I found this definition of strawman fallacy:

A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

Our discussion is regarding two places where I believe that God has spoken about the age that men would live. I don't see how that's a strawman to your argument that the 120 years where God speaks on the matter you just believe must be talking about something else because we know that men lived more than 120 years after that.

I don't see how my response is a strawman, but ok.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Because I asked if everyone you knew died at 70? Ok. Sorry. If you'd like to explain a bit more about how you make the Spiritual tie-in with the 120 years here and that there will then be 120 Jubilees. As I see it God is reducing the general life of mankind in both cases.

No, because it's actually 70 to 80, not exactly at 70. Saying it must be exactly 70 based on anecdotal personal account in the way you asked is a strawman fallacy. Also, it's the AVERAGE lifespan, evidenced in official statistics. Don't take my word for it, go click open that link and check it out. "By reason of strength" also is a scientifically accurate statement in regard to life expectancy. Strength comes from muscle, people with more muscle mass live healthier and longer than others whose muscles have atrophied. God only reduced human life expectancy in the case of Ps. 90:10 because it bears truth in reality, but NOT in the case of Gen. 6:3 because it doesn't match either biblical records of human lifespan or official statistics, the bible doesn't contradict itself. 120 Jubilee years is a reasonable alternative explanation. Again, if you still insist Gen. 6:3 must be about human lifespan, then that's nothing but cognitive dissonance.

 

[miamited]

It's three score and ten and you can make that into whatever number suits you.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

No, because it's actually 70 to 80, not exactly at 70. Saying it must be exactly 70 based on anecdotal personal account in the way you asked is a strawman fallacy. Also, it's the AVERAGE lifespan, evidenced in official statistics. Don't take my word for it, go click open that link and check it out. "By reason of strength" also is a scientifically accurate statement in regard to life expectancy. Strength comes from muscle, people with more muscle mass live healthier and longer than others whose muscles have atrophied. God only reduced human life expectancy in the case of Ps. 90:10 because it bears truth in reality, but NOT in the case of Gen. 6:3 because it doesn't match either biblical records of human lifespan or official statistics, the bible doesn't contradict itself. 120 Jubilee years is a reasonable alternative explanation. Again, if you still insist Gen. 6:3 must be about human lifespan, then that's nothing but cognitive dissonance.

For Carry_Your_Name and miamited,
Off topic, but, the statement in Genesis 6:3 only had one direct connection, and that was to the remaining lifespan of Methuselah. Psalms 90:10 is an unrelated matter.


miamited, what is this about supposing 120 jubilees?

 

[miamited]

miamited, what is this about supposing 120 jubilees?

Ya gotta keep up bro. Ask Carry_Your_Name

The intent when God set a date for man is 120 Jubilees. (You know 49 years and then Sabbath for the land and return all ownership to original owner.) I'd like to see that working out today, LOL! And you set the value of your land, if you wanted to sell it, on how many years the buyer would get to use it until the next Jubilee. And then the property would return to you, if you were the original owner. I always wondered how that would work on a scale as large as we deal with now? But yes, there is this idea that the length of days for this realm of God's creating is 120 jubilees and I've been asking questions about it. And of course 120 Jubilees is, interestingly enough, 6,000 years.

Anyway, I think there are several 'signs' that we will see, and some that we are seeing, that portend the return of Jesus to harvest the earth. “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Anyway, I think there are several 'signs' that we will see, and some that we are seeing, that portend the return of Jesus to harvest the earth. “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Indeed nobody knows the day or the hour. Nobody knows which year is a jubilee year and which day is the day of atonement - the tenth day of the seventh month, being the first day of a jubilee year. Modern Jewish calendar is way off.

 

[miamited]

Indeed nobody knows the day or the hour. Nobody knows which year is a jubilee year and which day is the day of atonement - the tenth day of the seventh month, being the first day of a jubilee year. Modern Jewish calendar is way off.

Probably. I mean the Jews kept pretty careful genealogical records up until Jesus' day. But I think a lot was lost in the sack of Jerusalem. Another question would be whether it would be counted from the beginning of the creation, or from the beginning of the commandment to establish the Jubilee year? When there is no law, there is no accounting for the law. If so, 120 Jubilees (6,000) years would still be 3.000 years away or so. The Israelites left Egypt and headed into the wilderness in the years from the beginning of about 2,978 or so, as I recall.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Probably. I mean the Jews kept pretty careful genealogical records up until Jesus' day. But I think a lot was lost in the sack of Jerusalem. Another question would be whether it would be counted from the beginning of the creation, or from the beginning of the commandment to establish the Jubilee year? When there is no law, there is no accounting for the law. If so, 120 Jubilees (6,000) years would still be 3.000 years away or so. The Israelites left Egypt and headed into the wilderness in the years from the beginning of about 2,978 or so, as I recall.

Of course it's counted from the Creation. Those seven feasts are feasts of the LORD - not the Jews; a jubilee year is an acceptable year of the LORD - not the Jews. Gen. 6:3 was God's decree declared from God's perspective, not man's.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Probably. I mean the Jews kept pretty careful genealogical records up until Jesus' day. But I think a lot was lost in the sack of Jerusalem. Another question would be whether it would be counted from the beginning of the creation, or from the beginning of the commandment to establish the Jubilee year? When there is no law, there is no accounting for the law. If so, 120 Jubilees (6,000) years would still be 3.000 years away or so. The Israelites left Egypt and headed into the wilderness in the years from the beginning of about 2,978 or so, as I recall.

Actually there’s another reason why it is impossible to know the day or the hour. In the Bible there’re two calendars, one is the 360-day civil calendar, each year starts in autumn, somewhere in late September to early October. Noah’s flood lasted exactly three months of 150 days, from the 17th day of the second month (Gen. 7:11) to the 17th day of the seventh month (Gen. 8:4), that shows this civil calendar was already in use even before the Flood; same goes for the three and half year great tribulation, also based on this calendar. It’s not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, but according to some sources, every 6 and 40 years a leap month (of 30 days) was added to keep up with the 365.24 day solar cycle.

The second one was a liturgical calendar ordained by God at the time of Israel’s exodus from Egypt (Ex. 12:1-2), it’s the basis for all feasts of the Lord, starting in spring, roughly half a year apart from the civil calendar. This one is a lunar calendar based on lunar cycle, each month is about 29 days on average, could be 28 to 30 days; the beginning of each month depends on the sighting of new moon in Judea, usually scouts at observatories would report the sighting to the high priests, and that marked the beginning of a new month. About every three years a leap month (Adar) was added, usually if the spring equinox precedes the Passover, then that was determined to be a leap year. Obviously since the length of lunar cycle varies, the length of each month varies, you don’t know how long the current month is, you can’t even set a date in the next month, let alone the Lord’s return in the future. “No one knows the day or the hour” was a Hebrew idiom referring to the feast of trumpet. Other feasts are all about in the middle of the month, this one though is set on the first day of the seventh month, the timing of which entirely depends on the sighting of new moon, nobody could predict when the new moon will appear, hence the name.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

Ya gotta keep up bro. Ask Carry_Your_Name

The intent when God set a date for man is 120 Jubilees. (You know 49 years and then Sabbath for the land and return all ownership to original owner.) I'd like to see that working out today, LOL! And you set the value of your land, if you wanted to sell it, on how many years the buyer would get to use it until the next Jubilee. And then the property would return to you, if you were the original owner. I always wondered how that would work on a scale as large as we deal with now? But yes, there is this idea that the length of days for this realm of God's creating is 120 jubilees and I've been asking questions about it. And of course 120 Jubilees is, interestingly enough, 6,000 years.

Anyway, I think there are several 'signs' that we will see, and some that we are seeing, that portend the return of Jesus to harvest the earth. “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

If we do the math according to Leviticus 25, (49 x 120 = 5880), then add 1 for the final 50th year.
The 50th year of one jubilee cycle, and the 1st year of the next jubilee cycle, are the same year.
The seven year cycles are not broken up by the jubilee year.

Still, it doesn't make sense that God would prescribe 120 jubilee's, but didn't bother to mention or explain what a jubilee was for another 981 years (1537 to 2518). And then, when he did explain the jubilee, it was only relevant to one people group and one small part of the earth.

In the context of the biblical narrative, the 120 years of Genesis 6:3 is not relevant to the jubilee cycle.

 

[Jarhead4Jesus]

miamited, have you researched the scriptures to identify a particular year for the exodus? If so, what is your calculation?

 

[miamited]

miamited, have you researched the scriptures to identify a particular year for the exodus? If so, what is your calculation?

Seems to me, and it's been a long time since I did the entire work, but I think the Exodus came about year 3,000. 2978 is exactly what I came to. Now, that's years from creation, not years B.C. Here's how I came to that number.

1656 to the flood. Noah was 600 years old. Two years after the flood, Shem had a son named Arphaxad. The duration of the creation is now 1658 years. 1,958 years to the birth of Abraham. The birth of Isaac when Abraham was 100 would have brought us to 2058 years that the creation has existed. Isaac had Jacob when he was 60 and Jacob had Joseph when he was 91. So that would add 151 years = 2531 . Joseph was 17 when he went into Egypt. The Israelites had grown into a nation size group while in Egypt that started during Joseph's life. The Scriptures then tell us that the Israelites sojourned for 430 years in Egypt. 430 + 17 is 447 years from Joseph's birth to the Exodus = 2978. The Israelites left Egypt in the 2,978th year of the existence of this realm of God's creating. They wandered for 40 years in the wilderness and so about the 3,018th year of the life of this realm of creation, the Israelites prepared to take the promised land.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If we do the math according to Leviticus 25, (49 x 120 = 5880), then add 1 for the final 50th year.
The 50th year of one jubilee cycle, and the 1st year of the next jubilee cycle, are the same year.
The seven year cycles are not broken up by the jubilee year.

There’re two critical errors in this math. First, a jubilee year starts not on the first day of the first month, but the tenth of the seventh, so the year before that is only as long as half of a regular year; second, as I’ve pointed out, God ordained a new calendar at the time of the Exodus (Ex. 12:1-2), a “regular year” is a lunar year, which is about 11 days shorter than a solar year, so the length of a year is different.