JT, what are your thoughts concerning the time duration of the 'little season' of Revelation 20?
7000 Years is Not Enough
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I'm not sure what that means. We're not given enough information to know more about that period of time. We'll have to wait and see.
Revelation 20 is not the only place in scripture that uses the term 'little season'. If you look into it a little more I think you'll see that there is enough information to, at least, determine how long it will NOT be. And knowing how much time remains after the thousand-year reign of Christ would help a lot when considering the full timeline.
Hey Jarhead4Jesus
Since you dug it up, let's discuss.
I'm not sold on some accounting of numbers that add up to your account of time upon the earth, when you add a one, just because there are years. Then you add a seven because of the 7 day week established by God. Honestly, I really can' think of any rational explanation that explains this conception of a number that you have arrived at using the data you've provided. You add the number of days from the crucifixion to the cross? Why don't you add the number of days that God ordered the Israelites to choose and hold the sacrificial lamb of the Passover? Surely that's got to be akin to the rationale I see in some of these other number choices. The number of days that Noah's family spent on the ark? Really? Is there any reasonable explanation that you can offer that such a thing should account for days of the earth?
How did you come by the 7,049 number of days that Jesus has worked in order to secure our salvation. Is that from the beginning of this realm to today? Or some other accounting. I mean, it obviously isn't counting just the days since he actually paid the price for our salvation to now. That's only been a couple of thousand years. And if 7049 is the number of days that Jesus has been working to secure our salvation from the first of the creation, and it would obviously count the number of days since the crucifixion, then it would be the age of the earth today? I don't honestly know of anyone who confirms that number. Not the Jewish Calander or any other reputable source of ancient time accounting. That would also mean that you believe that we still have about 1500 years to go
Since you dug it up, let's discuss.
I'm not sold on some accounting of numbers that add up to your account of time upon the earth, when you add a one, just because there are years. Then you add a seven because of the 7 day week established by God. Honestly, I really can' think of any rational explanation that explains this conception of a number that you have arrived at using the data you've provided. You add the number of days from the crucifixion to the cross? Why don't you add the number of days that God ordered the Israelites to choose and hold the sacrificial lamb of the Passover? Surely that's got to be akin to the rationale I see in some of these other number choices. The number of days that Noah's family spent on the ark? Really? Is there any reasonable explanation that you can offer that such a thing should account for days of the earth?
How did you come by the 7,049 number of days that Jesus has worked in order to secure our salvation. Is that from the beginning of this realm to today? Or some other accounting. I mean, it obviously isn't counting just the days since he actually paid the price for our salvation to now. That's only been a couple of thousand years. And if 7049 is the number of days that Jesus has been working to secure our salvation from the first of the creation, and it would obviously count the number of days since the crucifixion, then it would be the age of the earth today? I don't honestly know of anyone who confirms that number. Not the Jewish Calander or any other reputable source of ancient time accounting. That would also mean that you believe that we still have about 1500 years to go
Yes, time in this realm began when the earth was commanded to exist and it was spinning. That began the counting of days that God is still counting.
Hey miamited, thanks for engaging on this topic.
As I read over your reply, you assigned 'days' where I assigned 'years'. So, it seems that there is some confusion here.
The whole concept of 7049 is that Jesus Christ is an engineer. That, because He created all things, and because all things are clearly designed by a great and logical intelligence, then time is most likely designed as well.
Scripture gives a useful template of 7000 years, but the narrative of scripture actually demands that it's a little longer than a flat 7000 years.
There are a number of topics to discuss here, so rather than throw them all out at once, please choose one particular piece that you'd like to talk about, and I'll expand on my explanation.
Hi Jarhead4Jesus
Well, I honestly disagree that Scripture gives us some useful template regarding the end of days for this realm. Scripture doesn't make anything clear about that. Man has read the Scriptures where it says that God established the week of days and then jumped over to where God's word has said that a day is like unto a thousand years. Then with man's logic we have extrapolated from those two bits that the entire length of days of the creation will be based on the week of 6 days for work and the seventh as a Sabbath rest.
Now, that may be true, but I don't find that the Scriptures make it particularly clear that it is. It may also be untrue and the end of this age comes at the time that God has established and it has nothing to do with the 7 day week. And honestly, all of those things you list as adding up to your total number of days for the duration of this realm just seem like a bit of nonsense to me. That we add a year just because there are years? So, I've already posted my question regarding your list of 'how' God is adding up the time unto the end and if you want to start a discussion, then that's the thing that I'm questioning the most regarding your treatise.
First of all, Gods operates on a different calendar: one prophetic year is 360 days plus a leap month of 30 days every 6 and 40 years; this calendar was already in use since Noah's days - the flood lasted 5 months of 150 days. Other than that, there's also the Jewish laturgical calender where the length of one month is strictly in sync with the lunar cycle, which is 29 days on average; the "new moon" festival mentioned in the bible is the beginning of a month when the new moon appeared, and about every three years a leap month was added. This system was abolished after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This is why such discrepancies exist and no one knows the day or the hour. God's 7000 year flat timeline cannot be mapped out on neither gentile Gregarian calendar nor modern Jewish calendar because it's incompatible.
Also, after the millennial reign is the white throne judgement and the New Jerusalem, the concept of time will cease to exist because sun and moon will cease to exist. Sun and moon are the indicators of time, without them there will be no time, therefore the fullness of time is indeed 7000 years. It doesn't just originate from the creation week and 2 Pt. 3:8, you know, it's also hinted in Gen. 6:3 - "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." A common mistake is reading it as life expectancy from human perspective, which doesn't match biblical record - Moses was the only man who lived exactly 120 years, before him human lived much longer, Adam lived a whopping 930 years, Abraham lived 175 years (Gen. 25:7), and that was many generations AFTER the Flood; after Moses human life expectancy slowly dwindled down to an average 70-80 (Ps. 90:10). An unorthodox but reasonable alternative interpretation is 120 JUBILEE years - acceptable year for the Lord - instead of 120 regular years. Each jubilee cycle is 50 years, 50x120=6000, there you'll get 6000 years, that's the length of the strife between "spirit" and "flesh"; after that, a peaceful reign of Christ for a thousand years with no more strife. There, you get the same 7000-year timeline WITHOUT the "one day equals a thousand years" conversion. This is not date setting, but wise discernment of God's appointed times and seasons.
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; (Gen. 1:14)
There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. (Rev. 22:5)
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Scripture's crystal clear, it's man's distortion that has made it obscure. Here's the thing: a good teacher simplifies complex subjects, a bad teacher complicates simple subjects, an evil teacher not only complicates simple subjects, but mocks you for not understanding his complicated teaching. And we have a lot of evil teachers around here and there.
Hi Carry_Your_Name
I'm sorry but the inference of your reply is lost on me. Scripture is crystal clear about what?
Does that argument really make logical sense to you? Your claim is that the 7,000 years is correct because after the white throne judgment there will no longer be time? Please explain how the one has any bearing on the other.
And this is what God produced for us to marvel and declare the glory and power and awe for our loving Creator:
MSN
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Be sure and hit full screen
Depends on the subject.
My claim based on a reasonable interpretation of Gen. 6:3, 50 years being 50 "accpetable years of the Lord" (Is. 61:2) WITHIN the 7000 year period, which PRECEDES the white throne judgement and new jerusalem that are BEYOND the 7000 year period. I didn't use the latter to reason the former. "Time" in "fullness of time" refers to the time indicated by the solar and lunar cycles, Gen. 1:14-15. There could be time after the white throne judgement, but you tell me how time is tracked without sun or moon.
God's appointed time.
Yes, that might be the romantic value, but there's also a functional value: sun, moon and stars are indicators of time, one doesn't exclude the other. You see, the concept of night and day predates sun and moon - God hung them in the sky on the fourth day; but that's from God's perspective, not man's. Human perception of time is highly relative, time could pass lightning fast or excruciatingly slow, the objective NATURAL signs of time are the sun, the moon and the stars, they were creating as indicators of time and source of light, exactly as Scripture says.
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Well, as I understand it, if the new earth is spinning like the old earth does, then days pass. Time passes. Time is merely how any movement is measured. For the movement of the earth, God has established that the rotation of the earth marks days. That the journey around the sun marks years. So, without the sun, days would pass but years would not. There would be days and there would be time, but there wouldn't be any accounting that would allow us to measure for years other than to keep track of 364.75 days from age to age as the days pass. And I'm honestly not sure that keeping track of years is particularly important to the passing of time in an eternal existence.
Yes, that's what you said in your initial claim. I'm asking how God's Scriptures, I mean offer me some Scripture verses that makes all this that we are discussing about the last days so very clear to you. Obviously, it isn't so clear to all believers. And what you have offered so far just doesn't seem to be anything that comes from the Scriptures. You are just sticking to your guns on the matter, but you can't seem to offer any Scripture to back up your claim that God's allowance of days on this realm of existence to the white throne judgment, is 7,000 years. So, while I understand that it's as plain as the nose on your face to you, can you share the evidence that you've found in the Scriptures that makes it so plain as the nose on your face to you.
We don't know that. None of that is specified in the last two chapters of revelation, all of these is just imagination.
As I said, we don't know what the new heaven and the new earth will look like. The old heaven and old earth are gone, there's no guarantee of the same self-rotation of the earth, the same movement pattern cannot be presumed for the new earth. What is stated in the text is that New Jerusalem will be shaped in a perfect cube, how is this cube supposed to self-rotate?
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. (Rev. 21:1)
The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. (Rev. 21:16)
Neither am I, because there'll be NO passing of time in an eternal existence. God is beyond time, He is not bound by time, He is the eternal creatore who was, is and always will be, there's no "passing of time" for God, can we at least agree on that? If we're with Him in Jerusalem for eternity in new heavenly bodies (1 Cor. 15:53-54), no more life cycle (Rev. 21:4) or day cycle (Rev. 21:25), it is only logical to conclude that there wouldn't be any "passing of time" for us either.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” (Rev. 21:4)
Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). (Rev. 21:25),
Hi Carry_Your_Name
Which is why I opened up with it being the way I understand it. All that the Scriptures tell us is that God will again miraculously create a new heaven and a new earth, just as He did in the beginning. It's my personal understanding that the new earth will be spinning. I just think that the spinning has something to do with the atmosphere hanging around, but it could all be different. But it will be a new heaven and a new earth and the heaven and earth would likely be much like they are today. Just new and unsoiled by sin. I mean, honestly, I think God created the earth perfect the first time. But it got messed up by sin.
Right. It will be a cube created on the bottom by a square of land and overlayed with a similarly distant height of atmosphere above the land. It will be 'on' the earth and it will spin with the earth, if the earth does spin. Otherwise it won't. But we do know that one that we are on now does and that's what we're measuring this number of years until the end of this realm. But I'm really not sure that this is relevant to the matter of the OP about the number of years we're going to be on this spinning ball that we know is spinning and marking off days until the last one.
God's appointed times are specifically referring to the seven feasts in Lev. 23 and the Sabbatical years in Lev. 25. Every 50th year is a Jubilee year, which is an "acceptable year" of the Lord, that much is crystal clear. Then you have to make a judgment call on what the 120-year period in Gen. 6:3 is referring to. I've shared the evidence which debunks the common interpretation of life expectancy. It may be a grace period for Noah to build the Ark, that's another common interpretation. What I proposed is simply viewing these 120 years as 120 JUBILEE YEARS instead of 120 continuous regular years, which adds up to 6000 years; add the final 1000 years onto that you get 7000 years, no "one day for a thousand years" conversion.
And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (Gen. 6:3)
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; (Is. 61:2)
And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you; and each of you shall return to his possession, and each of you shall return to his family. (Lev. 25:10)
And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4)
Then you honestly think wrong. The new is not gonna be an Edenic pristine earth "unsoiled by sin", it will be completely different. Adam was unsoiled by sin when he was created, nonetheless he was created from the dust of the earth - the OLD, spherical earth, a body suitable for earthly life; citizens of New Jerusalem, however, will have new heavenly, spiritual bodies akin to Jesus's resurrected body, suitable for heavenly life in that perfect cube, there's no comparison. The same spinning and atmosphere cannot be guaranteed.
There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Cor. 15:40)
New Jerusalem is NOT something "on" the old earth - the old heaven and old earth has passed away, aka cease to exist, Rev. 21:1, haven't you caught that?
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. (Rev. 21:1)
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:18)
It is relevant in regard to the "end" of time, aka the "fullness" of time. Scripture is clear on the fullness of the Gentiles' time, which is commonly known as the church age. Then I argued against the OP's opinion that 7000 years are "not enough" - there will be no more because when the sun ceases to exist, the concept of "year" will cease to exist as well since the definition of a "year" is one complete solar cycle. Whether the cubic New Jerusalem will continue to self-rotate in the same 24-hour cycle, we don't know. Since all is made new, Rev. 21:1, it's more likely to be no than yes. So far you've definitely assumed wrong, according to the Scripture, this "spinning" ball will pass away.
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Lk. 21:24)
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Rom. 11:25)
Hi Carry_Your_Name
The biblical requirement is that the Jubilee year was to be treated like a Sabbatical year, with the land lying fallow, but also required the compulsory return of all property to its original owners or their heirs, except the houses of laymen within walled cities, in addition to the manumission of all Israelite indentured servants.
Yes, that is crystal clear. But then you say yourself that you have to make a judgment call on what the 120 year life span that God commanded in Genesis 6 could mean. Somehow you understand that as being crystal clear, but you claim to be making just a judgment call. That doesn't ring true to me and certainly would preclude any claim of crystal clarity.
I disagree. I believe that the new heaven and the new earth will be the place where those redeemed from this sin cursed earth will still be human beings just like Adam was created, but they will have shown their allegiance to God through their acceptance and love of Jesus and their commitment to live lives that follow after Jesus' life. They will be given new resurrection bodies, but they aren't going to be fundamentally different than Adam's body was. God was pleased with how He made Adam. We will walk around and live lives of joy and peace and satisfaction for eternity without the destruction that comes from the disobedience of sin. Had Adam and Eve not sinned then they would have lived eternally on the earth and had children and all would have been well. But they did, and God knew that they would, and He planned, from before the foundations of the world were established that He would send someone to save us from that sinful existence. But the new existence to come will still be, as far as I can see, human beings, men and women, living eternally with Jesus in the New Jerusalem which comes down and rests upon the new earth. In that great city of great size, the redeemed will live lives. They will glorify God and the Lamb with their living for all eternity just as the obedient angels will always be glorifying God with their living.
Yes, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians he discusses the matter of our resurrection bodies, and as I've said, there will be some differences. But I don't believe that the fundamental form and the necessity of food to nourish our bodies and walking around and sharing with one another just as Adam walked about the earth will change. I think that it can be confusing to understand that when Paul writes that the natural body becomes a spiritual body, that he is referencing the connection of the Holy Spirit in them. I don't believe that it means spiritual as in some angelic, ghost like form.
Yes, I agree that the command establishing the year of Jubilee, is that every 50 years the land would be left fallow and the Israelites were to return land to its original owners and not sow or reap their fields, but eat of the abundance from previous years.
The biblical requirement is that the Jubilee year was to be treated like a Sabbatical year, with the land lying fallow, but also required the compulsory return of all property to its original owners or their heirs, except the houses of laymen within walled cities, in addition to the manumission of all Israelite indentured servants.
Yes, that is crystal clear. But then you say yourself that you have to make a judgment call on what the 120 year life span that God commanded in Genesis 6 could mean. Somehow you understand that as being crystal clear, but you claim to be making just a judgment call. That doesn't ring true to me and certainly would preclude any claim of crystal clarity.
And you find that to be something that is crystal clear in the Scriptures... Ok.
Again, why not? Didn't God declare that the creation, as He created it and the moment that Adam was made in it, as very good? If it was very good and was created in such a perfect form to supply the life of mankind with food and shelter and a place to exist, why would the new heaven and the new earth be considerably different. Man is still going to be a living breathing human being after the day of God's judgment and he's going to live on a planetary body called 'earth' by God just as the first one was.
I disagree. I believe that the new heaven and the new earth will be the place where those redeemed from this sin cursed earth will still be human beings just like Adam was created, but they will have shown their allegiance to God through their acceptance and love of Jesus and their commitment to live lives that follow after Jesus' life. They will be given new resurrection bodies, but they aren't going to be fundamentally different than Adam's body was. God was pleased with how He made Adam. We will walk around and live lives of joy and peace and satisfaction for eternity without the destruction that comes from the disobedience of sin. Had Adam and Eve not sinned then they would have lived eternally on the earth and had children and all would have been well. But they did, and God knew that they would, and He planned, from before the foundations of the world were established that He would send someone to save us from that sinful existence. But the new existence to come will still be, as far as I can see, human beings, men and women, living eternally with Jesus in the New Jerusalem which comes down and rests upon the new earth. In that great city of great size, the redeemed will live lives. They will glorify God and the Lamb with their living for all eternity just as the obedient angels will always be glorifying God with their living.
Yes, in Paul's letter to the Corinthians he discusses the matter of our resurrection bodies, and as I've said, there will be some differences. But I don't believe that the fundamental form and the necessity of food to nourish our bodies and walking around and sharing with one another just as Adam walked about the earth will change. I think that it can be confusing to understand that when Paul writes that the natural body becomes a spiritual body, that he is referencing the connection of the Holy Spirit in them. I don't believe that it means spiritual as in some angelic, ghost like form.
I'm sorry, I must have not been clear. Yes, the new Jerusalem will come down from heaven upon the 'new' earth that God pretty much created immediately preceding the coming down from heaven of the city. And yes, I agree that there is a 'fullness of the Gentiles' that God is waiting patiently for. But it is the attempt to figure out what that means in times of years and days that is the question of this thread.