A commentary on the Book of Revelation - Part 1

[for_his_glory]

So are the only ones alive at that time left are believers? Or you would see that there are still people who did not take the mark but did not believe either and that will be the race that occupies Christ's reign on earth? Or wait...lol...I'm not sure but, you don't see a 1,000 year reign coming. Just the eternal state at that time?

All that are still alive at the coming of Christ will then be judged, saints and sinners will still be here when Christ returns on the last day when final judgement comes. One will hear, "well done thou faithful servant" or will hear, "I never knew you". Matthew 25:31-46; Rev 19.

 

[Rodger]

The previouse several posts are to me......needing to be their own separate thread. Several of my friends here are trying to work their own ideas on a subject that they are in love with. However, I am focused on the literal teaching of the book of the Revelation so having said that, allow me to continue.

REVELATION 2:12-17.........
“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write, ‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, [b]which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”

Obviously there is a lot here to unpack.

PERGAMOS. The name in the original means ....."Thoroughly Married" = A Marriage of the world with the Church.

Does that sound familiar to what we see today?????

The "prophetic" application is 313-590 AD.

Satans's Seat = Babylonian religious headquarters was moved here in 133 B.C.

This city had a Throne like alter to the god Zeus, a temple to Asklepios, symbolized by a Serpent along with others to the Roman Emperor.

Pergamos is also the home of the temple of DIONYSUS where the god BACCHUS lived. He is the god of wine and alcohol and is pictured as the 1/2 man and 1/2 goat with cloven feet and tail but his upper body as a human man.

Does that sound familiar to what we see today?????

Pergamos is also the home of the temple of AESCULAPIUS. This was the Greek god of "healing". The area around the temple was covered with thousands of snakes and the thought was that by touching them or them rubbing you would heal you. In time, tame snakes ( ? ) were kept in his temples as this animal was regarded as a symbol of regeneration.

Hygieia, Goddess of Health hygiene who was the daughter of Asclepius tended to his temples. Her symbol became a bowl containing a medicinal potion, with the serpent of Wisdom drinking from it. She is a goddess of health, healing, and hygiene.

Does that sound familiar to what we see in churches today?????

I said all of that to point your attention to the AMA medical symbol which is a STAFF with two Snakes coiled around it.

Doctrine of Balaam = a compromise of Christianity with Paganism resulting in idolatry and immorality.
Balaam, for those who do not know, once succeeded in leading many Israelites into these sins with false teachers.
(Numbers 31:16; 2 Peter 2:15 and Jude 11)

Can anyone reading these words grasp the idea that the USA specifically and the world in general is exactly in the same position?????????????

As a society, including many in the church worship TV, Hollywood movies, violent sports, political correctness, CRT and yes.......False teachers !

Dont we all tend to tolerate those who tell us that if we are SINCERE about God, whoever He/she is, we will be OK because we do not want our friends and family to reject us?????

 

[TCC2024]

for_his_glory

Thanks for your clarification. I understand why you are seeing what you are seeing. And argueeing from the place you do. People who have varying eschatological views have them for varying reasons. I pretend not to speak for all. I would say though that I understand for the most part those who believe the potential of a third temple during the tribulation period are not seeing it as some extension of God's ministry through the temple. But rather Israel's vain attempt at picking up where they left off 2000 years ago.

God permitted a second temple period because Christ would come in the 1st century to contrast the 2nd temple setting. Rev 11 like other chapters in Revelation will depend upon how we are looking at that book. And there are varying views of course. My general understanding of what is happening in Rev 11 is that it is part of group (chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15)...all having a unique focus surrounding the center flower bud focus of "the second half of the tribulation").

Chapt 10 -- Introducting the 144k mirror with Daniel 12 angel imagery. Like a hyperlink connect
Chapt 11 -- From the start of trib to the midpoint (the two witness view)
Chapt 12 -- From the start of trib to just past midpoint (celestial inference overview view)
Chapt 13 -- leading up to midpoint and just past midpoint (from AC highlight view)
Chapt 14 -- Table of contents for the second half of tribulation
Chapt 15 -- inaugural proper (as mirroring 144k on earth) for the beginning of the second half (the bowls)

So to me, chapter 11 is just part of train or storyboard highlighting the seond half by way of its modular narrative surrounding the second half with stories leading up to or stories starting from etc. With chapter 11, there is temple measurement...to me...this implies the two witnesses coming on the scene at the rebuilding of the temple. A marker of the early tribulation days. In my view the 2 witnesses are killed at the midpoint. Prior to that, the AC cannot rule unfettered. But once they are "taken out of the way," he can. Because "their" ministry will be over.

In Ezekile 38 chapters 40 - 48 we see a temple described we have not seen on earth. This I don't believe is a third temple reference. But rather a temple in the 1,000 year reign. We will see things differently, but how is it that in Ezekiel 40-48 we are told of 8 chapters worth of temple and practice description we have not yet seen, and there will be animal sacrifices in it? Breaking this down theologically does get into doctoral thesis, but one aspect that can be a takeaway = animal sacrifices as memorial during the 1,000 year reign.

You may well disagree of course. But because Ezekiel spends 8 full chapters describing in great detial this period in time for Israel, having a 3rd temple during the tribulation seems possible in what Israel only knew. Perhaps a testimony of God's promise to them that if they call on His name (Jesus), they will see Him. Like they will at the end of the tribulation. So on one hand unbelieving Israel building a temple because they are in partial hardened state would be from their perspective, all they know in their unbelief. Meanwhile, it would have nothing to do to add or subtract from Christ's work. But instead be something Israel only knows to do.

And from God's perspective, symbolic to the world under tribulation threat (a reminder of where all of this is going). Kind of like the Abraham Accords. In a way, providentially, I see that as a reminder testimony of God's blessing Ishmeal. For he was actually blessed by God. So like, to the Arab world a reminder of that even though in their unbelief they think the Muslim faith is true. People's unbelief does not limit God's grand testimony of Himself. What God might means for a well intended reminder because of our unbelief not being able to see spiritual things (a world under judgement), on a human level all we might see is people's unbelief. And evil. But God. As I see God much more involved in Providence today than the watcher church in general might permit Him to be about. So I am somewhat well aquainted with a myriad of reasons why I might sound in this way, totally obsurd...lol. But doing my best sister to highlight what I might here or there.

So yeah just saying that maybe its not about "our understanding" why God would or cannot do this or that. He transcends our reason. When we in integrity (not trying to be too groovy about it) consider how that might actually look, it will challenge our biases like a pack of wild hungry bear. Although it will not be likely you agree. But just hopeful to demonstrate a POV from where I am coming from. At least, might it make sense as it might? Blessings.

 

[for_his_glory]

I do appreciate your POV and enjoying our conversation.

REV 11:1-And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This temple is not a literal temple that John is to measure as there never will be a third one built as the temple mount will never be given back to the Jews and here is the reason why. Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times all because Israel never repented of their sin of idolatry when they were allowed back into their land again in 538 BC after their seventy year Babylonian exile and the land fell under the leader of the Roman Empire that still has diplomatic ties with Jerusalem today.

When the second temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans other Roman temples were built there and destroyed during various revolts up to the fourth century. From the fourth century the temple mount laid undeveloped until the Muslim Siege of Jerusalem in 637 CE. Between 689-691 CE the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock which stands today, but now under renovations that have to do with the prophecy of the son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 and the great falling away before the return of Jesus.

John was to measure the Spiritual temple of God as being those who are truly in Christ through the Spiritual rebirth that worship Him in all truths, John 3:3-7, which make up the temple of God as being the body of Christ. The symbolic here represents God separating and protecting His people. The temple of God is no longer made by hand since the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, Matthew 27:50, 51; Acts 7:48-51. The temple of God is within man that has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that keeps himself undefiled before the Lord, Matthew 27:51; Mark 7:15-23; 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17.

The outer court represents that of the control the Gentiles will once again have over the Holy city as they take full control over Jerusalem and trampled it for the last three and a half years of the seven trumpets tribulation period. The first three and a half years begin with the opening of the seventh seal and the last three and a half beginning with the seventh trumpet as this explains the seven year tribulation that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:21 as being the worst tribulation there has ever been nor will ever be again.

During this time once again the Roman Empire will take control of the temple mount in Jerusalem as a New World Order is even now being set up that will be one single world government of economic, political and religious power. They will bring back the sacrifices in the last part of the three and a half years or at the end of Daniels seventy week vision in Daniel chapter 9.

This sacrifice they make is not the sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, but will be a sacrifice in that of persecuting Christians to death as they refuse to bow down to this Nebuchadnezzar type system. It’s like that of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in Daniel Chapter 3 as they refused to bow down and worship the idols of Baal and God rescued them from the fire. The fulfillment of the times of the Gentile is that of the Gentiles that will not repent as they fulfill the prophecy of the beast and the false prophet that are thrown into the lake of fire with Satan at Gods final judgment.

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 11:3-4 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are one and three that bear witness in earth as being the Holy Spirit, the word and the blood of Jesus and these three agree in one, 1 John 5:7, 8. Only God can give power to act on His word as the Holy Spirit and Jesus bare witness to Gods power and authority especially through signs and wonders.

God exercises His power and authority through those of His great commission of Matthew 28:18-20 who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 1:22, who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. The sackcloth represents the anguish of Gods servants as they remain humbled before the Lord while baring witness to Gods wrath on the unrighteous as these witnesses go forth continuing to preach to the nations.

Zechariah speaks of two olive trees, but only one candlestick in the Old Testament. In this study we read there are two candlesticks. The two olive trees are the two anointed ones as being the two witnesses that are the Holy Spirit whom discerns and confirms the word of God in us by teaching us all truths, John 14:26, and Jesus being the light that shines in darkness as being the word made flesh to walk amongst us, John 1:1-5.

John is given the understanding that the two witnesses are in comparison to the two candlesticks and two olive trees, which if you read Zechariah Chapter 4 it explains that the golden candlestick is God. The seven lamps with the seven pipes that holds the oil (anointing) is that of the seven Spirits of God given to His Church: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and Spirit of the Lord, Isaiah 11:2.

The two olive trees are to groups of people. One group being natural Israel (Old Testament) as a remnant according to the election of grace have been saved as in the 144,000 taken from the twelve tribes of Israel that remained faithful to God up to a thousand generations thereafter that remain faithful, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17. The other being Gentiles (New Testament) grafted into the branch by that same grace of God that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and sealed by His Holy Spirit, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Romans Chapter 11. The two witnesses have always been those who have stood by God and His law in the Old Testament and those who stand by God and Jesus under the dispensation of grace in the New Testament. Jews were only sent to preach to the lost sheep of Israel and Paul was sent to preach to the Gentiles, Matthew 10:5-7; Acts 22:21, so will it be during the seventh trumpet sounding.

There is a theory that the two witnesses could either be Moses, Elijah or Enoch, but scripture disputes this theory. Deuteronomy 34:5, 6 says Moses died in the land of Moab. Elijah was carried away in a whirlwind as described in 2 Kings 2:11 and lifted up to the first heaven meaning the firmament as in the atmosphere that surrounds the earth. He was only translated to an unknown area on earth as several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him, 2 Chronicles 21:12. Paul says Enoch died in faith just as Abel, Noah, Abraham and their wives, Hebrews 11:5, 6, 13, but had not yet received the promise of eternal life as they also sleep in the grave until the coming of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Hebrews 11:13 Paul said Enoch was only translated and never said he was taken to heaven and lived to be around three hundred and sixty five.

In John 3:13 Jesus said that no one has ever ascended up to heaven so this proves that the two witnesses are not Moses, Elijah or Enoch. God said in Malachi 4:5 He would send Elijah (Elias) before the great and terrible day of the Lord. John the Baptist is a type of Elijah as a forerunner for Jesus, John 1:15-17, just as Jesus was speaking about John the Baptist in Matthew 17:12 those who carry the witness and testimony of Jesus throughout the nations from the time of the cross to that of the great and terrible day of the Lord are also types of Elijah. The two witnesses are the word of God and the Holy Spirit that confirms His word.

 

[TCC2024]

I do appreciate your POV and enjoying our conversation.

The outer court represents that of the control the Gentiles will once again have over the Holy city as they take full control over Jerusalem and trampled it for the last three and a half years of the seven trumpets tribulation period. The first three and a half years begin with the opening of the seventh seal and the last three and a half beginning with the seventh trumpet as this explains the seven year tribulation that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:21 as being the worst tribulation there has ever been nor will ever be again.

Thanks for saying that dear sister. I do too. I actually prefer discussions with those who see differently than I do because it challenges me to consider. We may see differently, but I percieve you have a sincere heart for Him and love for His truth. Amen.

I understand you place a premium on the temple not being rebuilt because the purpose it served was to tell of Christ. So once we have Christ, it would be anathema and totally profane for the temple to be back in the picture in some historical sense that God authenticates by permission in Providence. I understand that way of perceiving. Although honestly I have never had that conviction before.

What I mean by that is not that I should or am. Nor do I say that because I don't share your conviction of the sanctinty of how the temple was a mere shadow of the real. For I believe it was. Technically yes Jesus did end the animal sacrifices...in 70 AD. To give full respect to your view...when Christ died on the cross...that act was THE act all animals sacrifices pointed to. And is THE sacrifice that matters. In this sense it is the preeminent sacrifice. But historically, animal sacrifices were still going on for another 40 years. The Jews in their unbelief were still given time to repent. Just my personal take but I believe the reason Jesus was standing at the stoning of Stephen, was because he had not officially sat down yet. Meaning the Jews through their leaders had yet one more chance to honor Stephen's testimony. Some see Christ standing as a standing ovation. Which could be. But holistically, and whole-istically, it seems that even though of course God knows the future, within the real context of events along the way He provided genuine extension to accept Christ ongoingly. I say these things in hopes it comes across that I don't consider the shadow vs the real to be insignificant or subject to some fancy I might have of the epic movie I might want the apocalypse to be in my heart. Actually I would say 90% of my Christian conversations online in the past 5 years have been to dispell the block buster Chrstianeese Academy Award winning motion picture like motif evangelicalism seems to do today with end times. To me, it seems like we are blinded by our sense we might see so much in our social moment. In some ways it deeply frustrates me. So I don't say what I am with tea and coffee cake on table. I say it like I just got out of burning car going over a cliff. With a glass of cold water in front of me. A glass sweating on the outside from it knowing exactly how passionately it will sooth once pounded down. If that might provide the Ritcher scale measurement. I understand knowing we are His temple seems to be blasphamy to think of another Jewish temple. That would seem that God is confused. Or worse. I understand that. But I don't see how God condescends to a group He hardened partially for their unbelief to be inconsistent. What is...is. God does whatever He wants. If the temple in our day and age is an anthem to Israeli unbelief, and a zit on the face of this world to be popped, so sovereignly under His care can this be. At the end of the day, if a temple comes (if) what will you say then? Imagine the commentaries 100 years ago. When Israel had not been a nation for 2k years. Replacement theology reigned. And had 2k years to refine its thoughts to blend into reason.

Ahh speaking of measure. I don't believe God is actually telling John to measure anything (at least in the Ezek 40-48 way) as much as it is a reference to God's ownership. Measuring as ownership concept is thematic and several scholars recognize this. It is not said by whom the reed was given, nor are we told who speaks the command. The whole transaction is impersonal (Ellicotts commentary). Plus we don't get a measurement but the sense of why it was said.

There are so many things we can discuss dear sister as the latter part of your post opens up many other avenues of inquiry. I will say this though to your benefit. As you shape your thoughts, from what I have seen, your systematic seems to go quite a bit deeper into what the watcher movement on mainstreet seem to popularize much more artificially. On one hand this shows your diligence. On the other hand though it demonstrates to me that you are I are ideologically further apart than the common social moment watcher of today is. Which suggests we are light years away from common ground...lol. But the praise I would give you in this is that you are very cordial, sincere, and longsuffer in honesty about how you express yourself in all of it. Amen.

Final note on this section: so in that paragraph are you now saying the tribulaton is 7 years? Perhaps your difference is tribulation and great tribulation. Which on that point I would agree. But I was thinking "a" reason you might see 3.5 is because the 70th week is not for Israel. But now I see seven years from you. Would so seeing it this way in your view infer a week for Israel in some way?

 

[TCC2024]

In John 3:13 Jesus said that no one has ever ascended up to heaven so this proves that the two witnesses are not Moses, Elijah or Enoch. God said in Malachi 4:5 He would send Elijah (Elias) before the great and terrible day of the Lord. John the Baptist is a type of Elijah as a forerunner for Jesus, John 1:15-17, just as Jesus was speaking about John the Baptist in Matthew 17:12 those who carry the witness and testimony of Jesus throughout the nations from the time of the cross to that of the great and terrible day of the Lord are also types of Elijah. The two witnesses are the word of God and the Holy Spirit that confirms His word.

Ok so there is quite a bit going on here. I commend you for your diligence. On the letter Elijah wrote it says: “a writing from Elijah” (not a letter) -- Elliot. There is a lot of this kind of research too we could compare. Elijah was an empty seat at the table for the Jews centuries to come. Have you studied why the Jews believed Elijah would return? In addition, you are aware that Christ also said:

Matthew 17 -- He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did [d]to him whatever they wanted.

Now this of course is a matter of how one views hermeneutic and by what systematic theology might be in use. But what I see there is that had the Jews accepted Christ, He had (in good faith and character) brought genuine opportunity to Israel to receive His kingdom. I believe it was always God's plan for Israel to be the ones to win the Gentiles to God and Christ. But since they rejected their messiah, God gave that ministry to the gentiles. As God knows the future but also extends simultanously a genuine offer, the way this is reflected in holy writ is that John would have been the spirit of Elijah for them had they believed. But since He knows they will not...Elijah is still yet coming.

Matthew 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who [l]was to come. 15 The one who has ears to hear, [m]let him hear.

My last point on this sort of thing (because we could write books together dear sister), is that Paul clearly says Enoch did not die:

5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for before he was taken up, he was attested to have been pleasing to God.

The following paragraph including Abraham, Sarah etc would be the category of those who died. My dear sister I spend quite a bit of time challenging my own views. Because I know my 1st seal take is absurd. Therefore since no one else believes it, I have to hold myself accountable. And I diligently place myself into high octane exposure to dismantle my own views. I diligently seek the harsh conditions of open weather conditions to reasonable erode my convictions. If I don't, no one will. I bring this up because there are other ways of understanding some things you share with such conviction. But like this about Enoch and no one has ascended to God, I am amazed someone as rich in deep study as you would settle for some of your own arguments. The concept of ascending to God is in the sense (where no one has) that any person cannot ascend to God to understand Him. That is different than if God pulls someone to Himself physially. There is nothing in Enoch being taken where Enoch was some super human person able to reach the heights of God like some demigod of Greece to know more about THE God. Those are two very different sense of concept of ascend. And you are truly amazing with your level of research and inquiry. How does something so generically discernable escape though your research notice?

For example, Hebrews 11:5 interlinear uses "not see death." I understand your rubric of "no one ascends to God" governs how you may receive what other things are saying. But, and please receive this with the loving intent in which is expressed here," it appears your massaging of the concept of "no one acends to heaven" is a bit too dogmatically owned to see past the value you give it. I hope that makes sense.

I will comment on Zechariah 4. But I have been wanting to say this other thing about 1 John. Because a similar notion I notice could be at play in what I just mentioned in the previous passage. As we know Greek word meaning is a great help. But from everything I have seen over the years the greatest exegetical tool is, "context." That is the overarching preeminent governing hermenuetic of hermenuetics in my book. 1st John was written in the 90's. Although there were protognostic elements in the 30's plus, by the 80's Jude wrote against protognostic explosions in the church. Historically it is wise of course of the Spirit to wiat until the end of the century to close the canon. Because it would be far harder to distinguish Christian literature from gnostic had God not waited to close canon in the 90's. Because that was the biggest assault of gnostic belief upon the church. And that is the context John wrote "there are many antichrists." Because those that blew through the church teaching gnosticism would not stay (many of them). So that is not proof no one AC may come in the future. It is only proof that that spirit of AC is multiorbed and continuous. We don't have to say, "Therefore I command there cannot be one AC (one person type) in the future." To me this is a logical fallacy. It can be true that throughout history antichrists are a plenty (even in Matt 24 after the abomination of desolation there will be many in the fields and in the inner rooms). But even the Matt 24 co-existing versions does not mean there is not a main beast men will worship. We can argue for or against that. Sure. But I am just pointing out that because one thing is true therefore nothing outside of it is--can be a fallacy. You are aware that Balaam was the first to mention Messiah as associated with Israel right? So why would God allow a false prophet such luxury concerning the fortelling of His own Son? Or why would Moses put a serpent (from the garden?) on a pole to look to for healing? Because God transcends our little formulas of how we think and process. You are a champion not to be caught by thoughts of men. Yet, you are one of us. So the challenge is to not let ourselves be the men we listen to. I don't mean we should be gnostic. But just open to no matter how good our view on scritupre is...to some great degree we are influenced by our own minds...which belong to men. I believe you know this. I am just trying to share it hopefully from a friendly observable point in how I might lend outside observance in places hopefully.

Dear sister on Zech 4 you can come away from that chapter having great conviction on an answer. But please consider that Zech kept asking. One way of looking at it is God did not entirely answer him. That is one way to look at it right? Because Zech kept asking until the end. The only concluding (or the main concluding) clarity is they are annointed. So you are ok with that being the Holy Spirit? God annointing Himself? To me, God is more annointed than those annointed (said like Dr. Zues...lol). What I mean is that I don't see the conferring of holy office that God would bestow upon Himself.
One who comes to Him must believe that He is. (Heb 11:6). God does not annoint Himself. Now as Christ on behalf of men, yes in the flesh. But did the Father annoint Jesus to be His Son? Or was He the Son already? I hope the answer is the latter. I am just suggesting the forcing of categories in order to come to biblical clarity may not be the safest way to ensure sound doctrine. If that makes sense?" Look I get that my saying Trump is the 1st seal sends out all the same kinds of alarm bells. And since I am aware that it does I spent 4 years on JD Farag's forum allowing all manner of contrast to come at me and put me in my place. I watch Anomaly on YouTube with his great concern of Trump. I watch Young Turks to tear my view to shreds. I listen and seriously consider the views of others. I honestly consider yours too as well. But I do it to in an open active living flame. Totally willing for any idea I have to be destroyed. And I have had many a time i go through days feeling really stupid. lol. Because of how I thought etc. But all in all it seems to still hold...yet I am still open to being wrong. And these days are the perfect time for that. So it could be a matter of weeks I need to be taken out to the wood shed. Do you have periods in life like this though? Do you allow your convictions to be torn by a pack of hungry bears? Perhaps in discussion with me it is something like that. I would just encourage you to not hold too strongly to views where in several places there is such controversy and some resemblance of other sound considerations possibly too. If that makes sense? Blessings with a full and grateful heart to know you.

 

[for_his_glory]

At the end of the day, if a temple comes (if) what will you say then? Imagine the commentaries 100 years ago. When Israel had not been a nation for 2k years. Replacement theology reigned. And had 2k years to refine its thoughts to blend into reason.

They can build a third Temple, but God will not honor it or dwell within it as now the Temple of God is within us as God no longer dwells in buildings made by hand. Acts 17:24-28; 1Corinthians 3:16-17

Ahh speaking of measure. I don't believe God is actually telling John to measure anything (at least in the Ezek 40-48 way) as much as it is a reference to God's ownership. Measuring as ownership concept is thematic and several scholars recognize this. It is not said by whom the reed was given, nor are we told who speaks the command. The whole transaction is impersonal (Ellicotts commentary). Plus we don't get a measurement but the sense of why it was said.

This temple is not a literal temple that John is to measure as there never will be a third one built as the temple mount will never be given back to the Jews and here is the reason why. Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times all because Israel never repented of their sin of idolatry when they were allowed back into their land again in 538 BC after their seventy year Babylonian exile and the land fell under the leader of the Roman Empire that still has diplomatic ties with Jerusalem today.

When the second temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans other Roman temples were built there and destroyed during various revolts up to the fourth century. From the fourth century the temple mount laid undeveloped until the Muslim Siege of Jerusalem in 637 CE. Between 689-691 CE the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock which stands today, but now under renovations that have to do with the prophecy of the son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 and the great falling away before the return of Jesus.

John was to measure the Spiritual temple of God as being those who are truly in Christ through the Spiritual rebirth that worship Him in all truths, John 3:3-7, which make up the temple of God as being the body of Christ. The symbolic here represents God separating and protecting His people. The temple of God is no longer made by hand since the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, Matthew 27:50, 51; Acts 7:48-51. The temple of God is within man that has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that keeps himself undefiled before the Lord, Matthew 27:51; Mark 7:15-23; 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17.

The outer court represents that of the control the Gentiles will once again have over the Holy city as they take full control over Jerusalem and trampled it for the last three and a half years of the seven trumpets tribulation period. The first three and a half years begin with the opening of the seventh seal and the last three and a half beginning with the seventh trumpet as this explains the seven year tribulation that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:21 as being the worst tribulation there has ever been nor will ever be again.

During this time once again the Roman Empire will take control of the temple mount in Jerusalem as a New World Order is even now being set up that will be one single world government of economic, political and religious power. They will bring back the sacrifices in the last part of the three and a half years or at the end of Daniels seventy week vision in Daniel chapter 9.

​

Final note on this section: so in that paragraph are you now saying the tribulaton is 7 years? Perhaps your difference is tribulation and great tribulation. Which on that point I would agree. But I was thinking "a" reason you might see 3.5 is because the 70th week is not for Israel. But now I see seven years from you. Would so seeing it this way in your view infer a week for Israel in some way?

You will find that I do not run with the mainstream theology of a social acceptable word of God, especially when it comes against scripture as many teach a feel good message, but leaves one empty of truth.

I never said there was any 7 year tribulation, but only the sounding of seven trumpets of God's mighty wrath being poured out into the world. There have always had tribulations, but in the latter of days there will be a specific 3 1/2 years of the greatest tribulation that has even been or will ever be again when the son of perdition takes its seat in Jerusalem for the last time 2Thessalonians 2:1-12.

 

[TCC2024]

They can build a third Temple, but God will not honor it or dwell within it as now the Temple of God is within us as God no longer dwells in buildings made by hand. Acts 17:24-28; 1Corinthians 3:16-17

Well thanks for agreeing that there could be a third temple in general. I understand your being well gaurded against this view. If there is a third temple, of course it would not be God reinstituting Israel in an old testament biblical way. The differences of our views though is that I would see it as a testimony to the world. And you would see no possible path to that because in your mind it can't be so.

This temple is not a literal temple that John is to measure as there never will be a third one built as the temple mount will never be given back to the Jews and here is the reason why.

This is a logical fallacy to me. What is in Rev 11 can't be a 3rd temple because because:

Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times all because Israel never repented of their sin of idolatry when they were allowed back into their land again in 538 BC after their seventy year Babylonian exile and the land fell under the leader of the Roman Empire that still has diplomatic ties with Jerusalem today.

I say logical fallacy because even if there are Roman diplomatic ties, does not mean God could not transcend in permitting a temple for His own purposes. I understand you see this cannot be based on God not letting that happen because of their sin. Yet, Israel was under Roman rule, whereas now at times they had become the 8th most powerful economy in the world and is ironically a world power. So in that sense Israel has currently exceeded your reasons as to why things can't happen because of your need on some level to see an echo residue of Roman ties meanwhile in all of our faces Israel is experiencing massive autonomy, super wealth, leading edge technology, and massive survival while being surrounded by advasaries or potential adversaries. How we view the word of God should not be that which shapes how we are willing to consider it. Because our views have great need to be challenged. In order to remain most pure and have a most prestinely honest view of what potential passage might or may not mean.

You will find that I do not run with the mainstream theology of a social acceptable word of God, especially when it comes against scripture as many teach a feel good message, but leaves one empty of truth.

I'm the same but kind of your nemesis. Because I believe the greatest hermenuetic for end times is the living character of God demonstrated in scripture. Where the spirit of our age has trained our hearts to believe we are unique in extentending the zietguist of tough love and believing this new age approach to understanding His word gets us closer to Him. I think the main differences here though dear sister is that I would permit God to demonstrate His awesome character greater than how the thoughts go in my head about it all. While you would seem to be a bit more comfortable relying on your understanding of systematics about the word you find to make sense for you.

One exemple I am trying to point out is that it does not matter how many times Israal was capture. Nor that they stop sinning. Did they stop sinning to get Israel back? No. Did they stop sinning to get Jerasulam back? No. Providence has a greater argument than you. For in contrast it would be good for us to be challenged out of our safety version views we may hold to and take pride in about ourselves. Because just on that one note about Israel and a future temple, Israel is far more free, industrious, enterprising, and controversial in the world today than you escatology could ever permit to be possible for them. Or what am I not seeing? The church might not remain here (as I am pretrib) to see a temple. But I suppose we might. I am actually fine if there is no temple. It would seem from scripture though that this be more of a possibility because Matt 24 affirms the passage in Daniel is speaking about an antichrist to come. Its just the reasons you have for not considering a possibility of a temple on some levels seem to be surpassed by 76 year old Providence. Which seems to transcend your systematic in ways, no? Blessings.

 

[Rodger]

Thanks for saying that dear sister. I do too. I actually prefer discussions with those who see differently than I do because it challenges me to consider. We may see differently, but I percieve you have a sincere heart for Him and love for His truth. Amen.

I understand you place a premium on the temple not being rebuilt because the purpose it served was to tell of Christ. So once we have Christ, it would be anathema and totally profane for the temple to be back in the picture in some historical sense that God authenticates by permission in Providence. I understand that way of perceiving. Although honestly I have never had that conviction before.

What I mean by that is not that I should or am. Nor do I say that because I don't share your conviction of the sanctinty of how the temple was a mere shadow of the real. For I believe it was. Technically yes Jesus did end the animal sacrifices...in 70 AD. To give full respect to your view...when Christ died on the cross...that act was THE act all animals sacrifices pointed to. And is THE sacrifice that matters. In this sense it is the preeminent sacrifice. But historically, animal sacrifices were still going on for another 40 years. The Jews in their unbelief were still given time to repent. Just my personal take but I believe the reason Jesus was standing at the stoning of Stephen, was because he had not officially sat down yet. Meaning the Jews through their leaders had yet one more chance to honor Stephen's testimony. Some see Christ standing as a standing ovation. Which could be. But holistically, and whole-istically, it seems that even though of course God knows the future, within the real context of events along the way He provided genuine extension to accept Christ ongoingly. I say these things in hopes it comes across that I don't consider the shadow vs the real to be insignificant or subject to some fancy I might have of the epic movie I might want the apocalypse to be in my heart. Actually I would say 90% of my Christian conversations online in the past 5 years have been to dispell the block buster Chrstianeese Academy Award winning motion picture like motif evangelicalism seems to do today with end times. To me, it seems like we are blinded by our sense we might see so much in our social moment. In some ways it deeply frustrates me. So I don't say what I am with tea and coffee cake on table. I say it like I just got out of burning car going over a cliff. With a glass of cold water in front of me. A glass sweating on the outside from it knowing exactly how passionately it will sooth once pounded down. If that might provide the Ritcher scale measurement. I understand knowing we are His temple seems to be blasphamy to think of another Jewish temple. That would seem that God is confused. Or worse. I understand that. But I don't see how God condescends to a group He hardened partially for their unbelief to be inconsistent. What is...is. God does whatever He wants. If the temple in our day and age is an anthem to Israeli unbelief, and a zit on the face of this world to be popped, so sovereignly under His care can this be. At the end of the day, if a temple comes (if) what will you say then? Imagine the commentaries 100 years ago. When Israel had not been a nation for 2k years. Replacement theology reigned. And had 2k years to refine its thoughts to blend into reason.

Ahh speaking of measure. I don't believe God is actually telling John to measure anything (at least in the Ezek 40-48 way) as much as it is a reference to God's ownership. Measuring as ownership concept is thematic and several scholars recognize this. It is not said by whom the reed was given, nor are we told who speaks the command. The whole transaction is impersonal (Ellicotts commentary). Plus we don't get a measurement but the sense of why it was said.

There are so many things we can discuss dear sister as the latter part of your post opens up many other avenues of inquiry. I will say this though to your benefit. As you shape your thoughts, from what I have seen, your systematic seems to go quite a bit deeper into what the watcher movement on mainstreet seem to popularize much more artificially. On one hand this shows your diligence. On the other hand though it demonstrates to me that you are I are ideologically further apart than the common social moment watcher of today is. Which suggests we are light years away from common ground...lol. But the praise I would give you in this is that you are very cordial, sincere, and longsuffer in honesty about how you express yourself in all of it. Amen.

Final note on this section: so in that paragraph are you now saying the tribulaton is 7 years? Perhaps your difference is tribulation and great tribulation. Which on that point I would agree. But I was thinking "a" reason you might see 3.5 is because the 70th week is not for Israel. But now I see seven years from you. Would so seeing it this way in your view infer a week for Israel in some way?

Can we please FOCUS on the Scriptures that are presented instead of jumping to topics other than what is in view.

 

[Rodger]

Can we please FOCUS on the Scriptures that are presented instead of jumping to topics other than what is in view.

REVELATION 2:18-29.........
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

This church is commended for their work, faith and service.

Then they are rebuked for allowing a certain WOMAN named "Jezebel" to teach the false doctrine of Balaam. We discussed in the past section and it is again....a teaching which marries fornication with idoltery.

This begs this question. Should women be pastors of churches today?????
Now if you are a woman, and want to post a response please read this before you post something that will embarrass you.
Now remember, I teach the BIBLE not opinions and what I WANT TO BELIEVE.

1 Timothy 3:1-5.......
"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); "

In the Greek.....all the highlited are "Masculine" and can not be interpreted as HUMANITY.

This was the "Corrupt" church.

It is the the least important of all the churches. It was deep in the OCCULT.

OCCULT = Fortune telling/divination/ witchcraft.

It is the prophetic time frame of the Roman Emperor Constitine who declared himself the 1st Catholic Pope!!!!

The word CATHOLIC = Universal!

In verse #20, the word "seduce" means a departure from BIBLICAL truth where rituals and tradition took the place of personal faith in Christ.

This was the beginning of the worship of the Virgin Mary and her child.

It was in this church that the 1st Mass was given for the dead.

Power and authority rule was in the hands of the POPE. It was when the Roman Inquisition began which led to the death of approx. 22 million people.

Of all the church's, the most severe warning given to any of the church's was given to this one.

Do you think that this church listened to Christ's warning??????????

Now, I encourage you to understand what it is that I am talking about.

I actually agree and for the 1st Baptist church to go to war with the Assembly of God or the Methodist's is not what we/I are talking about.

What I am saying is that if a Church calls itself "Christian", and says that along with faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, a man must also accept MUFASA the Lion King------do we accept that as a Bible Christian denomination????

Consider the Church of Jesus Christ, The Latter Day Saints.
Do we accept their position as claiming to be a Christian denomination simply because they say so????
Should we investigate? Know what they teach? Challenge any Bible errors? Or do we just sit back and allow them to continue because they say they are IN THE BODY?

Do we accept the claim that Mary is the source of our salvation or has influence over Jesus.

Do we accept the teaching that a Christian MUST speak in tongues to be saved or has to be baptized to be saved.

ARE THEY?

Or do we identify it as something else altogether????

NO TARGETS! Just proposing logical questions to common everyday positions already established.

PLEASE----PLEASE FOCUS YOUR DISCUSSION AND POSTS ON THE SCTIPTURES AT HAND!!!!
PLEASE----PLEASE DO NOT GO OFF DOWN A RABBIT HOLE OF YOUR OWN PERSONAL DESIRES!

 

[Rodger]

REVELATION 3:1-6........
"And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Three churches are left to be discussed. In the verses above we see the church at SARDIS.

Jesus makes the same statement He did to the other churches...."I KNOW THY WORKS"!

This church has a reputation of being alive, but Jesus says they are DEAD!

1. God does not want dead churches.
2. A church may grow in numbers but if its people are not growing spiritually, the result will be a dead church.
3. A church may have a lot of activity/programs but if there is no COMMITTMENT to service, there can be no spirituality.

Jesus has always had a 5 fold plan for any church to have a revival.

1. "Be Watchful.
2. "Strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die".
3. "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard".
4. "Hold fast".
5. "Repent".

Then Christ gives them a warning = Stay alert and be watchful or he will come on them as a thief in the night and they will not know the hour He is coming.

Now cross reference that with Revelation 16:15 and Matthew 24:36.

Rev. 16:15........
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

Matthew 24:36..
" But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. "

Jesus then gives them and US some glorious promises to the over comer........
1. A White raiment.
2. Our name will not be blotted out of the book of life.
3. Jesus will confess our name before the Father and the angels in heaven!!!!!

May I say to all of you....our goal, our hope is that when we stand before the Father, He will look at us and see the blood of our dear Lord Jesus Christ on us, and look us in the eye and say.............
"Welcome home my child, welcome home"!!!

 

[TCC2024]

Rev. 16:15........
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

Hi Roger. I'm new here and really have no overall sense of how this forum works yet. But this is likely your thread, if so my apologies for interrupt. I come from forums that can tend to be all over the place. I do have a question on your topic. But before i do i would like to address something to @for_his_glory

Dear sister when i mentioned the word nemesis, i was thinking of it like in the playful sense of super hero comics like stuff. In all honesty i really appreciate the welcome you have provided me on this forum. And thanks for being so engaging. We probably won't see eye to eye on several points. But i appreciate you have a passion for the word and i understand your not always finding the typical views. I have my share of those differences. And from what i have seen so does much of Christendom. In any case i can tend to be rather forthright with some of my polemics. I apologize if they might have sounded too assertive. You are an engaging soul. And i kind of let my hair down with you. Thank you for the chance and opportunity to interact at such real levels as we had. I appreciate you. Blessings.

ROGER
Ok, thanks. Back to Roger. So my question is: When we look at Revelation 16, it would appear we are at the bowl stage of tribulation and in this place, vs 15, on the heels of Armageddon. I am not sure of your eschatology. I am pretrib. So a lot of the time when i hear "like a thief in the night" there is a sense of how it might also apply to the rapture. In some senses yes. But in others like Luke 21:36. I would see that as the time the AC go after the world with the mark and the Jews get a chance to escape into the wilderness but some see it as rapture. In any event my real question is in Rev 16, is there a difference sense with the emphasis of being about caught without close in this language? Because it seems here very close to the literal return of Christ physically.

Just a quick foot note on that, but that verse is kind of a good reminder to me that during those days it will be probably far more confusing that all of what is thrown at us today as crazy as things are getting. But i have heard the pretrib montra of "all we have to do is count time from when the tribulation starts and we would have an idea of when Christ would return." But with the strong delusion at the midpoint and the frog spirits and Armageddon, i'm not so sure it will be all that easy to tell.

I look forward to your reply Roger. Blessings.

 

[Rodger]

Hi Roger. I'm new here and really have no overall sense of how this forum works yet. But this is likely your thread, if so my apologies for interrupt. I come from forums that can tend to be all over the place. I do have a question on your topic. But before i do i would like to address something to @for_his_glory

Dear sister when i mentioned the word nemesis, i was thinking of it like in the playful sense of super hero comics like stuff. In all honesty i really appreciate the welcome you have provided me on this forum. And thanks for being so engaging. We probably won't see eye to eye on several points. But i appreciate you have a passion for the word and i understand your not always finding the typical views. I have my share of those differences. And from what i have seen so does much of Christendom. In any case i can tend to be rather forthright with some of my polemics. I apologize if they might have sounded too assertive. You are an engaging soul. And i kind of let my hair down with you. Thank you for the chance and opportunity to interact at such real levels as we had. I appreciate you. Blessings.

ROGER
Ok, thanks. Back to Roger. So my question is: When we look at Revelation 16, it would appear we are at the bowl stage of tribulation and in this place, vs 15, on the heels of Armageddon. I am not sure of your eschatology. I am pretrib. So a lot of the time when i hear "like a thief in the night" there is a sense of how it might also apply to the rapture. In some senses yes. But in others like Luke 21:36. I would see that as the time the AC go after the world with the mark and the Jews get a chance to escape into the wilderness but some see it as rapture. In any event my real question is in Rev 16, is there a difference sense with the emphasis of being about caught without close in this language? Because it seems here very close to the literal return of Christ physically.

Just a quick foot note on that, but that verse is kind of a good reminder to me that during those days it will be probably far more confusing that all of what is thrown at us today as crazy as things are getting. But i have heard the pretrib montra of "all we have to do is count time from when the tribulation starts and we would have an idea of when Christ would return." But with the strong delusion at the midpoint and the frog spirits and Armageddon, i'm not so sure it will be all that easy to tell.

I look forward to your reply Roger. Blessings.

Hello and thanks for the question. May I say first that we are jumping WAY -WAY ahead of the study I am doing. "Systematic" is the process of considering one verse at a time with a goal in mind which is the way I teach the Revelation.

However, I will say to you that Chapter 16 is the record of the Seven angels pouring out the last set of judgments on the earth with are the Bowl Judgments.

The Seven Bowls​

16 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the [a]bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

First Bowl: Loathsome Sores​

Second Bowl: The Sea Turns to Blood​

Third Bowl: The Waters Turn to Blood​

Fourth Bowl: Men Are Scorched​

Fifth Bowl: Darkness and Pain​

Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up​

Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken​

Chapter 15 was the prelude to this chapter and it was originally connected to it. These bowl judgments are poured out during the reign of the A/C and they cover a very short period of time comparatively speaking.

Chapter 17 and 18 are "parenthetical" and it all leads to the literal 2nd coming of Christ in chapter 19.

I am a "Pre-tribulation" teacher as it is the only one that allow all the pieces to fit perfectly together.

 

[TCC2024]

Hello and thanks for the question. May I say first that we are jumping WAY -WAY ahead of the study I am doing. "Systematic" is the process of considering one verse at a time with a goal in mind which is the way I teach the Revelation.

However, I will say to you that Chapter 16 is the record of the Seven angels pouring out the last set of judgments on the earth with are the Bowl Judgments.

The Seven Bowls​

16 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the [a]bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

First Bowl: Loathsome Sores​

Second Bowl: The Sea Turns to Blood​

Third Bowl: The Waters Turn to Blood​

Fourth Bowl: Men Are Scorched​

Fifth Bowl: Darkness and Pain​

Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up​

Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken​

Chapter 15 was the prelude to this chapter and it was originally connected to it. These bowl judgments are poured out during the reign of the A/C and they cover a very short period of time comparatively speaking.

Chapter 17 and 18 are "parenthetical" and it all leads to the literal 2nd coming of Christ in chapter 19.

I am a "Pre-tribulation" teacher as it is the only one that allow all the pieces to fit perfectly together.

Thanks Roger. In general my understanding of the bowls seem to me to come at the midpoint (or just after). Obviously in 15 we see those persecuted for not taking the mark are already in play by the time of the bowls. Since it is the beast that comes out of the pit that kills the two witnesses and that would appear to come out from the 5th trumpet, it would seem that the supernatural timeframe of the AC power does not take place until the energizing of the 5th trumpet event. Which leaves only trumpet 7 left by the time the 2 witnesses are killed at the midpoint. Would that be your understanding? If so it would seem that what comes after the death of the 2 witnesses is the bowls. So chapter 15 seems to be a testament that by the times of the bowls initial release, the AC has demanded worship and demanded the mark. Perhaps the bowls are the divine response to such action taking place on earth?

One other question in passing if you might. You mentioned chapters 17 and 18 about Babylon the great to be parenthetical. I agree. I kind of see chapter 14 as a table of contents to some extent for the second half of the tribulation. In that sense i would imagine the bulk of the activity of Babylon the Great to be exercised mainly in the second half of the tribulation as well (being that it is only at the last hour that the 10 nation confederacy give their power to AC AND that the destruction of Bab the Great is bowl 7, the final one). Might you see this as an accurate observation? Thanks. Blessings.

 

[Rodger]

Thanks Roger. In general my understanding of the bowls seem to me to come at the midpoint (or just after). Obviously in 15 we see those persecuted for not taking the mark are already in play by the time of the bowls. Since it is the beast that comes out of the pit that kills the two witnesses and that would appear to come out from the 5th trumpet, it would seem that the supernatural timeframe of the AC power does not take place until the energizing of the 5th trumpet event. Which leaves only trumpet 7 left by the time the 2 witnesses are killed at the midpoint. Would that be your understanding? If so it would seem that what comes after the death of the 2 witnesses is the bowls. So chapter 15 seems to be a testament that by the times of the bowls initial release, the AC has demanded worship and demanded the mark. Perhaps the bowls are the divine response to such action taking place on earth?

One other question in passing if you might. You mentioned chapters 17 and 18 about Babylon the great to be parenthetical. I agree. I kind of see chapter 14 as a table of contents to some extent for the second half of the tribulation. In that sense i would imagine the bulk of the activity of Babylon the Great to be exercised mainly in the second half of the tribulation as well (being that it is only at the last hour that the 10 nation confederacy give their power to AC AND that the destruction of Bab the Great is bowl 7, the final one). Might you see this as an accurate observation? Thanks. Blessings.

If I may....allow me to explain to you the Judgments.

There will be 3 sets of 7 judgments that take place after the Rapture.

Parts of Chapter 14 is also "Parenthetical" as it tells us who the 144 k are. These are the same 144 k seen in chapter 7.

The view changes in verse #14 is of Mt Zion which is Jerusalem. It is the beginning of the 1000 year rule of Christ which is right after Armageddon.

Verse #6 reverts back to the last half of the SEVEN year Tribulation.

1. SEALS
2. Trumpets
3. Bowls(Vials)

Now, with careful reading we see that the 7th SEAL judgment is actually the set of 7 Trumpets judgments.
Then the 7th Trumpet judgment is the set of 7 Bowl judgments.

Then the 7th Bowl judgment is Armageddon which is at the very end and seen in chapter 19.

Each set of 7 judgments is increasingly harsher than the previous set.

The 5th Trumpet is the release of locusts that torment men for 5 months in Chapter 9.

Now, all of this is WAY WAY ahead of where I am in chapter #3. I WILL GET THERE but it will take time.

 

[Rodger]

Now as I reach this point I need to tell you WITHOUT apology once again that I approach this from the "Pre-millennial,-- futurist approach".

This approach Insists that the events of (chapters 4-22), are yet future, and that those chapters literally and symbolically depict actual people and events yet to appear on the world scene.

This method describes the events surrounding the second coming of Jesus Christ (chapters 6-19), the Millennium and final judgment (chapter 20), and the eternal state (chapters 21 and 22). Only this view does justice to Revelation's claim to be prophecy and interprets the book by the same grammatical-historical method as (chapters 1-3), and the rest of Scripture.

Please understand......I know that some reading this will not agree with me as some already have.

Also know that I am not going to DEBATE WITH ANYONE on what their view is. That is not what this thread is about. IF you want to talk about YOUR opinions on the Rapture or the Seven Year Trib. or your thoughts on the successful life, then please start your own thread. FOCUS ont the Scripture in front of you and discus it and give your input!!!!

So then REVELATION 3:7-13............
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

It is MY understanding that this is the church to be RAPTURED. The Prophetic application is from the Resurrection to today!

Remember, this is NOT a message from John. All of this is direct from the Lord Jesus Christ, GOD!

HE identifies Himself in verse #7 as --
“him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”

This description of Jesus emphasizes His holiness, His sovereignty, and His authority. The reference to the key of David is an allusion to the Messianic prophecy Isaiah 22>22............
"And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."

Jesus is the one who opens and shuts, and no one can say Him nay. It also confirms that He who wrote Isaih also wrote the Revelation.

Verse #8 says .....
“I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name” .

The church of Philadelphia was weak in some respects, yet they had remained faithful in the face of trial. Because of this, the Lord promises them an “open door” of blessing.

In verse #9 we see ............
“I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you” .

Those who persecuted the believers (the persecutors were religious hypocrites in this case) would one day realize Christ loves His children. The church of Philadelphia would be victorious over its enemies.

Now right here in verses #10-11 is the reason I present my understanding the Philadelphia church will be the Raptured church.

Jesus encourages the Philadelphian believers regarding His future coming: ........
“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown”.

I know some reading this do not accept the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I also know some do not accept the Rapture at all.

May I say to you all, I am NOT a Greek scholar, however I have had studies in that language. Please confirm this
but from what I know and have looked up and verified, the word "from" in 3:10(the Greek ek, ex) highlighted in the above verse always and only indicates a removal. Now for those who choose to argue their own opinion, this means that the only possible understanding of the verse is that the faithful will be removed prior to the hour of temptation and that this verse is a validation for the pre-tribulation rapture position both grammatically and figuratively.

The church’s faithful endurance would serve as a blessing. Jesus would take them to be with Him before the coming tribulation.

Rapture is seen in 1 Thess. 4:13-18.............
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Paul also exhorts them to remain faithful, because this would lead to rewards in the afterlife. Based on this and other passages, many Bible interpreters conclude that the RAPTURE is an event distinct from the 2nd Coming of Christ. The fact that the Philadelphians are promised to be preserved from the time of the tribulation corresponds with the pre-tribulation view of the timing of the Rapture.

Jesus provides a final promise to the believers in Philadelphia and to all believers: verse 12.......
“Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down from out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name”.

Professor Thomas Constable notes------
“God promised that He will not just honor overcomers by erecting a pillar in their name in heaven, as was the custom in Philadelphia. He will make them pillars in the spiritual temple of God, the New Jerusalem (21:22; cf.).
Gal. 2:9; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:19-22; 1 Pet. 2:4-10).”
(Source: Thomas Constable, Notes on Revelation )

 

[for_his_glory]

Well thanks for agreeing that there could be a third temple in general. I understand your being well gaurded against this view. If there is a third temple, of course it would not be God reinstituting Israel in an old testament biblical way. The differences of our views though is that I would see it as a testimony to the world. And you would see no possible path to that because in your mind it can't be so.

This is a logical fallacy to me. What is in Rev 11 can't be a 3rd temple because because:

I say logical fallacy because even if there are Roman diplomatic ties, does not mean God could not transcend in permitting a temple for His own purposes. I understand you see this cannot be based on God not letting that happen because of their sin. Yet, Israel was under Roman rule, whereas now at times they had become the 8th most powerful economy in the world and is ironically a world power. So in that sense Israel has currently exceeded your reasons as to why things can't happen because of your need on some level to see an echo residue of Roman ties meanwhile in all of our faces Israel is experiencing massive autonomy, super wealth, leading edge technology, and massive survival while being surrounded by advasaries or potential adversaries. How we view the word of God should not be that which shapes how we are willing to consider it. Because our views have great need to be challenged. In order to remain most pure and have a most prestinely honest view of what potential passage might or may not mean.

I'm the same but kind of your nemesis. Because I believe the greatest hermenuetic for end times is the living character of God demonstrated in scripture. Where the spirit of our age has trained our hearts to believe we are unique in extentending the zietguist of tough love and believing this new age approach to understanding His word gets us closer to Him. I think the main differences here though dear sister is that I would permit God to demonstrate His awesome character greater than how the thoughts go in my head about it all. While you would seem to be a bit more comfortable relying on your understanding of systematics about the word you find to make sense for you.

One exemple I am trying to point out is that it does not matter how many times Israal was capture. Nor that they stop sinning. Did they stop sinning to get Israel back? No. Did they stop sinning to get Jerasulam back? No. Providence has a greater argument than you. For in contrast it would be good for us to be challenged out of our safety version views we may hold to and take pride in about ourselves. Because just on that one note about Israel and a future temple, Israel is far more free, industrious, enterprising, and controversial in the world today than you escatology could ever permit to be possible for them. Or what am I not seeing? The church might not remain here (as I am pretrib) to see a temple. But I suppose we might. I am actually fine if there is no temple. It would seem from scripture though that this be more of a possibility because Matt 24 affirms the passage in Daniel is speaking about an antichrist to come. Its just the reasons you have for not considering a possibility of a temple on some levels seem to be surpassed by 76 year old Providence. Which seems to transcend your systematic in ways, no? Blessings.

You have your understandings and I have mine. I'm not going to argue one of us has better knowledge then the other as there is no fruit in doing so and I am enjoying our conversation. I have no knowledge how you receive your understanding as well as you do not understand how I receive mine. This is why these are called discussions instead of I'm right, you are wrong forums. I never ask anyone to be believe what I teach, but to take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves and draw their own conclusions.. You and I have been been discussing various things from which we see two points of views and there is nothing wrong with that. It's not going to matter much when Christ returns as all He expects is us to be ready to go with Him.

 

[Rodger]

You have your understandings and I have mine. I'm not going to argue one of us has better knowledge then the other as there is no fruit in doing so and I am enjoying our conversation. I have no knowledge how you receive your understanding as well as you do not understand how I receive mine. This is why these are called discussions instead of I'm right, you are wrong forums. I never ask anyone to be believe what I teach, but to take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves and draw their own conclusions.. You and I have been been discussing various things from which we see two points of views and there is nothing wrong with that. It's not going to matter much when Christ returns as all He expects is us to be ready to go with Him.

Actually.....I for one agree with you.

MY only concern is that we do not go off rabbit holes on a thread not designed for such a trip.

On forums, we need to stay focused on the intent of the originator.

 

[TCC2024]

You have your understandings and I have mine. I'm not going to argue one of us has better knowledge then the other as there is no fruit in doing so and I am enjoying our conversation. I have no knowledge how you receive your understanding as well as you do not understand how I receive mine. This is why these are called discussions instead of I'm right, you are wrong forums. I never ask anyone to be believe what I teach, but to take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves and draw their own conclusions.. You and I have been been discussing various things from which we see two points of views and there is nothing wrong with that. It's not going to matter much when Christ returns as all He expects is us to be ready to go with Him.

Hi for_his_glory. Thank for getting back to me on this. As I was taking a break from a previous forum, my views are rather different from there and no one agrees with my position...lol. So yeah, its not really from wanting to win an argument from my side either. And actually I am glad that Rodger agrees with your view over mine because this forum has a history far before my arriving and sharing some perspectives. My motive is generally to help consider other perspectives as potential considerations. Actually on the other forum I recently started going back there and it amazes me how we are still all friends because the level of discousion there is kind of wild west like. So I'm very blessed by His glory shinning through you in having engaged at length with me dear sister. Beyond any side of any argument, that speaks to your great character and love depth in our dear savior. And extremely hospitable toward me. Thank you so much, truly. Blessings.