A Fair and Open Discussion (Athesim V.S Religion)

[TheAtheist]

Hello everyone
For a longtime now i have been looking for a fair and open talk about religion and i must say it has been very hard but after reading through some of the posts here i feel this might be accomplished.
First off let me say that i am in no way trying to insult anyone's beliefs all i am looking for is a fair discussion using facts from credited sources or personal philosophy on whether or not god truly does exist.
Unfortunately i must say now that the bible is not a credited source because there is little historical truth to it it is mostly symbolic.


Now my opening argument is this.
There can not be an all mighty being that knows everything, is everywhere, created everything and so on and so forth. And why you ask? because most people including myself are taught and a young age of god and all his wonders by our parents who in turn were taught by there parents all with out ever seeing proof of this "God" but we go on believing what we are told never questioning why we never see him hear him talk with him. ( Ok you can talk with him but it is all one sided.) We are told of Santa clause and the Easter bunny and the Tooth fairy then later told that it is impossible that they can exist. That is a very big contradiction, if god can exist why cant they? All of them are built on a belief only Santa clause has proof of being real ie Saint Nicholas.

 

[Rick W]

As long as the Terms of Service are followed I see no reason this topic cannot be discussed. Please remember this is a Christian site and I expect discussion to proceed with respect from all.

Thank you

 

[samuel]

Unless you can see, that anything as complex as all Creation. Could not have come into existence by accident, or on its own. That it is evident that some form, of complex design was required. And a designer of extreme intelligence had to be involved, there is nothing I can say to convince you.

Aside from the fact that many archeological finds, have proven many of the facts in the Bible true. But I know what you will say to that, that archeological finds have also proven the history books, and the Bible is nothing more than that. So I guess there still is nothing to discuss.

Well lets see; there is the fact! that the Apostles gave their lives to preach the Gospel. Now just why? would any sane person die for a lie. And it is a fact they existed, supported by many old Church records. But I guess that's not good enough either, they were just probably decieved.

I guess Jesus never existed. Except for the fact Josephus, a Jewish historian confirmed that he did, and did many great works around Jerusalem, and was crucified. And he was not even a religious man.

The bottom line is, it just takes FAITH.

 

[Blazin Bones]

I would contend that the opening premise of this discussion is neither fair nor open.

If this were a fair discussion, you would not have to open by discrediting scripures since this in itself is an attack on the integrity of the Christian faith itself. It is also even less fair to assume that speculative theories are enough to make the claims found in scripture inaccurate and mythical

It is not open to begin a discussion about religion by immediately discrediting the single most published book in all history, the only ancient text with literally thousands of manuscripts dating as fair back as the second century AD, and a text that was barely criticized until the dawn of the "enlightenment" era when foreign faiths began to be more interesting than the faith that is associated with the Christian religion.

To discredit scripture would be to discredit almost two millenium of philosophies which have their basis in the teachings of the Bible. To discredit scripture would also discredit much of modern society as even the United States and it's history clearly is based on the christian Faith. There are more sources that confirm the existence of the Christ than any of the BC greek philosophers and yet we are to discredit the Bible. Not even "competing" religions deny the life of Christ, and his life is all a Christian needs to believe in God and all his teachings and his holy word.

 

[Pogo]

TheAtheist -

It appears to me that you are now stumbling around on ground that has already been plowed by minds that are much better than mine, and probably everyone else's on these forums, including yours.

Albert Einstein determined that there WAS a God, because the universe has an order to it.

The absence of order would be chaos, which would mean NO God.

Also, many times here, in other threads, I have recommended a book to others entitled "Evidence that Demands a Verdoct" by Josh MacDowell.

If you haven't read that book, then I suggest that you pause your participation in this thread until you have read the first 90 to 100 pages of this book, and then continue your discussion here.

And, if you HAVE already read this book, and are still holding the view that there is no God...then please point me to the flaws in Mr. MacDowell's evidence and logic.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Gabe]

Pogo, I have not read that book myself, but have been told that it is very good. A friend of mine was an atheist before she read it, now she is a Christian and says that this book was one of the reasons she overcame her scepticism.

 

[rstrats]

samuel,

re: “The bottom line is, it just takes FAITH.â€Â


But since a person cannot consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something exists, or that a certain proposition is true, what is the person to do?

 

[dadof10]

There can not be an all mighty being that knows everything, is everywhere, created everything and so on and so forth.

Why not? This is a positive statement that must be elaborated on.

We are told of Santa clause and the Easter bunny and the Tooth fairy then later told that it is impossible that they can exist. That is a very big contradiction, if god can exist why cant they? All of them are built on a belief only Santa clause has proof of being real ie Saint Nicholas.

This is a false comparison. Parents know there is no Easter Bunny or Santa Clause, yet I've never known a parent that taught their children about God thinking He didn't exist. They are believers first.

If you don't believe God created this ordered universe, how did it come into being?

 

[samuel]

Well without FAITH, it is impossible to please God.
By the way the Easter bunny, never laid an egg, so he created nothing. And St. Nicolas, is long dead and buried. But the Lord Jesus Christ is not, can you find his bones?, no he is risen, and now is seated on the right hand of the Father in Heaven.

Even a lot of Scientists are now saying that creation is to complex, to believe evolution happened. They are searching for another explanation, I pray that they find it.

Back to the Faith thing, it is a gift, its impossible for a man to believe on his own. But Isaiah 55:6 tells you what to do. That's a sneaky way to get you to read the Bible, you just might find something in there. Then you might want to read the same book Ch. 64:4-9. By the same book, I mean Isaiah.

 

[Rick W]

This need not become an evolution debate thread. Please reserve that for the Science forum. :yes
Thank you

 

[samuel]

Not trying to turn it into a evolution thread (I hope), just stating how some of science feels discredited by their former beliefs. :yes

 

[Rick W]

That's ok samuel. I should have made a note it wasn't directed to you or anyone in particular. But I know how these things can develop in regard to evolution. Once the debate is joined it will never get back on topic as an overall discussion concerning other things as the OP suggests.

 

[F4i†h?]

There can not be an all mighty being that knows everything, is everywhere, created everything and so on and so forth.

Why not? This is a positive statement that must be elaborated on.

We are told of Santa clause and the Easter bunny and the Tooth fairy then later told that it is impossible that they can exist. That is a very big contradiction, if god can exist why cant they? All of them are built on a belief only Santa clause has proof of being real ie Saint Nicholas.

This is a false comparison. Parents know there is no Easter Bunny or Santa Clause, yet I've never known a parent that taught their children about God thinking He didn't exist. They are believers first.

If you don't believe God created this ordered universe, how did it come into being?

In all fairness, how did God come into being?
I'm an atheist as well and I'm not here to offend either, just want a good healthy discussion. As far as my main question, well it's more of a statement but anyway, scientists have discovered galaxys that are so far from the earth that the light reaching earth from the galaxys now is actually older than the earth itself. The bible reads, right in Genesis 1:1, 'First God made heaven and earth.' Which I believe implies all at the same time. How is it possible to have galaxys much older than earth when the bible states other wise?

 

[lovely]

TheAtheist,

Welcome to the board. You wrote...


Now my opening argument is this.
There can not be an all mighty being that knows everything, is everywhere, created everything and so on and so forth. And why you ask? because most people including myself are taught and a young age of god and all his wonders by our parents who in turn were taught by there parents all with out ever seeing proof of this "God" but we go on believing what we are told never questioning why we never see him hear him talk with him. ( Ok you can talk with him but it is all one sided.) We are told of Santa clause and the Easter bunny and the Tooth fairy then later told that it is impossible that they can exist. That is a very big contradiction, if god can exist why cant they? All of them are built on a belief only Santa clause has proof of being real ie Saint Nicholas.

The Bible is a very respected book as well as historically accurate. The translation has been very well preserved too. I think that educators have taught us to consider the Bible a 'story' book, or a book that is not valuable, but I think that the Bible has withstood the test of time and has much to offer science, history, mathematics, astronomy, etc.

I do not think that oral history, or parental teaching, of God as a Supreme Creator proves that God is a fairy story. I also don't think that Educators teaching that He doesn't exist proves this either. Find out for yourself by searching God's Word.

Many come to faith after a life time of questioning, and so even though people of faith do encourage others to keep from doubting God, especially confessing believers, it's the questions that actually lead us to Him in a sincere way. We were all 'TheAtheist' at some point. I would encourage you to question away, but do so without prejudice, and with an honest search for truth.

As far as prayer being one sided, this is inaccurate for the true believer, and even then the Father may be the One who feels it's onesided...we do not pray to Him nearly enough for a people who love Him, and yet He answers daily, provides daily, because of His kindness and love. When you are in a relationship with Him, you can see the reality of the spiritual working out in the physical...it's so neat. I understand as one who does not believe that this seems impossible, and so I can't 'prove' it to you, but I do live it. It's nothing like Santa, or the Easter Bunny...neither of which we celebrate or teach our children about.

Last, I would like to offer the altruistic work of love that God offered to mankind as a reason to believe that God is real. It is unmatched, and God gives this love to those who believe on Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God. We sin, and He was without sin, yet He loved us and redeemed us. Amazing love! God's grace and love are unmatched, as I said, and have opened the eyes of many so that they finally see clearly.

The Lord bless you.

 

[Free]

In all fairness, how did God come into being?

God has always been. He is a necessary Being.

I'm an atheist as well and I'm not here to offend either, just want a good healthy discussion. As far as my main question, well it's more of a statement but anyway, scientists have discovered galaxys that are so far from the earth that the light reaching earth from the galaxys now is actually older than the earth itself. The bible reads, right in Genesis 1:1, 'First God made heaven and earth.' Which I believe implies all at the same time. How is it possible to have galaxys much older than earth when the bible states other wise?

Gen 1:1 is just a general statement that the heavens and the earth were created. This in no way means that they were created at the same time. Having said that, remember that science is interpreting data based on many assumptions. However, that is a topic for the Science forum and if that is something you want to discuss, then feel free to start a topic there.

And welcome to the forums!

 

[Blazin Bones]

In all fairness, how did God come into being?
I'm an atheist as well and I'm not here to offend either, just want a good healthy discussion. As far as my main question, well it's more of a statement but anyway, scientists have discovered galaxys that are so far from the earth that the light reaching earth from the galaxys now is actually older than the earth itself. The bible reads, right in Genesis 1:1, 'First God made heaven and earth.' Which I believe implies all at the same time. How is it possible to have galaxys much older than earth when the bible states other wise?

As Free has said, welcome to the forums.

This notion that you present is very tricky. One must start by assuming the science is correct and/or not manipulated by anything else God has created. It is also assuming that the rate of galatical expanse has not changed since the creation of time.

It is possible that an all powerful God created particles of light that were placed in between the galaxy and our own. The only variables I need to believe my theory is an all powerful God and faith. However the theory you present relys on all these basic notions and many more: That our current science is correct, the measurement between our galaxy and the other galaxy is correct, the instruments used to measure these measurements are accurate, the ability of the one using the insturments is adequate, the light particles have not been aided in anyway, the ability to accurately calculate the age of the earth, the assumption we can can trace every particle of light that comes into our galaxy ...etc. Which belief requires more exact variables?

 

[dadof10]

In all fairness, how did God come into being?

He didn't. He is the First Cause. In all my human experiences, from the greatest to the most benign, there is cause and effect. So when confronted with the question of our existence, I come to the conclusion that there is a Cause, and since It is outside creation It must be Uncreated. This seems to make more sense than any theory I've heard.

Now that I've answered your question, how about returning the favor. If there is no First Cause (Creator), how did we come into existence?

 

[Guest]

In all fairness, how did God come into being?

God has always been. He is a necessary Being.

I think what F4i+h was trying to get at was this: The argument in favor of God's existence was that the universe is so complex, that it could not possibly have come into existence by chance. It had to have an intelligent designer, which must be God. So, following that logic, the next question is... who created God?

God is so complex, that He could not possibly have come into existence by chance. God had to have an intelligent designer, which must be... who? Then if we can figure out who created God, we find ourselves asking who created the creator of God. And then who created the creator of the creator of God. And so on and so forth. This is known as the "infinite regress".

So it sounds like the Christian argument can be summed up as... nothing can exist without a creator. And that creator is God, who just happens to exist without a creator.

 

[Guest]

Well lets see; there is the fact! that the Apostles gave their lives to preach the Gospel. Now just why? would any sane person die for a lie. And it is a fact they existed, supported by many old Church records. But I guess that's not good enough either, they were just probably decieved.

The 9/11 hijackers gave their lives for Allah, and fully expected to be in Paradise that day. The Heaven's Gate cult members gave their lives to catch that comet afterwards. Lots of people throughout history have given their lives for a variety of different beliefs. And it can be proven that all these people existed.

But I guess that's not good enough for you; they were just probably deceived.

I guess Jesus never existed. Except for the fact Josephus, a Jewish historian confirmed that he did, and did many great works around Jerusalem, and was crucified. And he was not even a religious man.

I'm NOT interested in proving or disproving the existence of Jesus at all... I just don't think that your Josephus argument works. Josephus was not even born until AD 37 (reaching adulthood in the 50s), so there is no way that he could have personally seen Jesus in the flesh, hanging out with his disciples, walking on water, healing the sick, etc. Josephus got to see as many of Jesus' great works around Jerusalem as WE did.

 

[Free]

[quote="F4i†h?":3v06qege]In all fairness, how did God come into being?

God has always been. He is a necessary Being.

I think what F4i+h was trying to get at was this: The argument in favor of God's existence was that the universe is so complex, that it could not possibly have come into existence by chance. It had to have an intelligent designer, which must be God. So, following that logic, the next question is... who created God?

God is so complex, that He could not possibly have come into existence by chance. God had to have an intelligent designer, which must be... who? Then if we can figure out who created God, we find ourselves asking who created the creator of God. And then who created the creator of the creator of God. And so on and so forth. This is known as the "infinite regress".[/quote:3v06qege]
Yes, I am well aware of what an infinite regress is and it is a problem with your argument, not the Christian's.

So it sounds like the Christian argument can be summed up as... nothing can exist without a creator. And that creator is God, who just happens to exist without a creator.

No, that is not at all the Christian argument.