A message for all Sabbath breakers.....Owned!!

[guibox]

my Adventist friends seem to be accusing me of Antinomianism, even from your silence.

What does this term mean what are they accusing me of.

Antinomianism comes from the combination of two Greek words, the first word is "Anti" which mean against or in opposition to, and the second word is Nomos, which most of us Christians know, and it means Law. So the word means against or opposed to Law.

Now let us put down the facts out to see who is really the Antinomian.

Adventist - say some Christians, such as I, that we are antinomian because we do not keep the Sabbath they way you Adventist do. They say we are against Gods command's at Mt Siani (some say at creation) that we should keep the Seventh day.

I feel that Adventist are the Antinomina because you do not keep God"s command's. Adventist will say which commands are we not keeping?


The words of Paul and the apostles and Jesus are commandments.

1 Corinthians 14:37 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Now that we know that these words that we find in the New testament are commandments let us look at what the commandments are.

New Covenant Commandment = Colossians 2:16 16
¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.

Well you judge me because of what I eat and drink and because of my Day of worship which is every Day, they say I can not give all days of the week to Him (My perpetual Sabbath).

Here you are breaking 3 commandments.

Her is another New Covenant Commandment that you break.

Galatians 4:23-24 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
------------
So what is the covenant at Mount Sinai (or Horeb).?

Deut 4:10-13 10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb (Mt Siani), when the LORD said unto Me, Gather Me the people together, and I will make them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.........13) And He declared unto you His covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone.

So the Covenant at Horeb or Mt Siani is the Ten Commandments
------------
Galatians 4:25 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children--

NOW HERE IS THE COMMANDMENT.

Galatians 4:30 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."

So the Command is cast out the bondwoman. Well it says she is Hagar which represents the Covenant at Mount Siani which is the Ten Commandments and all the Book of the Law, and it says we are to CAST OUT the Old Covenant as well as the son. And who is the son? It is Ishmael who is the son of Abraham's WORKS as well as our WORKS. Now even the Adventist know that they do not get rid of the people and teachers in the Church who teach works and legalism. So I see it that it is Adventist who are the Antinomian and not me.

Here is another Commandment that you Break both in the Book of the Law and in the New Covenant and that is to Love your Neighbor as your self or as Jesus did. Do you Adventist Love your fellow Christians and Catholic friends or do you say we are Babylon with 666 on our forheads and hands. Do you Love us even though we see the Sabbath differently then you do.

servant, it is obvious we are all wasting our breath as you accuse us of being 'under the law' and not under grace, and we accuse you of not knowing the relationship between the law and grace.

Again, for the last time, Colossians 2 isn't saying what you so desperately want to say.

Second, the difference between Isaac and Ishmael Ishmael represented Abraham's efforts to fulfill the promises on his own. Isaac represents that of God fulfilling His promise. One is works, the other is faith. The Jews who kept the law to be justified and do it on their own are represented by the 'slave son'. However, God writing the laws into our hearts and filling us with His spirit and giving us a changed heart are represented by Isaac.

You twist the meanings around. This is because you ultimately don't understand the problems Paul was facing with the Jews and the law and how the law was used.

Paul praises the law when it is used to point us to Christ and convict us of our sin.

Paul condemns the law when we try to make it represent Christ and seek justification through the law, through our own merits.

Until you and Heidi completely understand this, you are faced with contradictions and redunancies. Unfortunately, you are to tunnel-visioned to see that and what we Sabbatarians are trying to portray.

You have proven over and over again that it is much simpler to take a superficial view of Paul's writings then to actually study it in its context.

 

[dcookcan]

What exactly are God's commandments that you quote from 1 John?? Answer: They are the commandments of Jesus Christ our God. And nowhere among them will be found, for instance, the Fourth Commandment of Exodus 20. It was only a long shadow on the desert floor of legalism pointing to Christ hanging on the cross. When following this shadow we found Christ we saw that this commandment, along with all the rest of the 613, had been nailed to Christ's cross.
.....

I believe Jesus was (and is) God. It is evident you do not.
Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
For I am the LORD, I change not

I just believe the face value of the Bible...

It is apparent that you like to choose the parts of the Bible that you will take at face value.

.....
When you get time I'd be willing to go over this with you then...if we both have time...kind of busy here...

Nice that you took the time to ignore the points I made and continue on in your argument that was proven wrong.

.....
Come on DC your starting to toss them right across the plate to hit home runs with. And I mean those big fat slow ones.

However, you forgot the best part -- the context! Let me quote it for you in its context:
.....

I see the pot calling the kettle black in your statement on context. In order to understand context you need to consider everything written in the Bible, not just your favorite key phrases.

How true that is. For not one jot nor one tittle did pass away TILL ALL WAS FULFILLED.

And all WAS fulfilled! Jesus fulfilled all there was to be fulfilled -- and that was ALL of it. For when Jesus was hanging on the cross He said, "It is finished!" Meaning that "all was fulfilled"!

The Law of Moses was finsihed and replaced by the Law of Jesus. It was finished in the sense that Jesus Christ fulfilled it right down to the last jot and tittle and therefore "everything is accomplished."

Everything! The whole enchilada. Including the Ten Commandments! Including the Fourth Commandment! Including the Sabbath Commandment!

If all has been accomplished, then the Messiah would have returned and finished what He started. His messianic works are all clearly delineated in the Law that you think has been fully accomplished. You believe in a falacy. Israel still has enemies. There is still sin on the Earth. etc. etc. etc.

.....
Time to get on board the gospel train, my friend!

Not under the Law, but under grace,

What gospel train are you refering to? Is it the one that was preached to Abraham? Or is it something else? FYI, the gospel existed before Jesus died. What was that gospel?

 

[guibox]

What exactly are God's commandments that you quote from 1 John?? Answer: They are the commandments of Jesus Christ our God. And nowhere among them will be found, for instance, the Fourth Commandment of Exodus 20. It was only a long shadow on the desert floor of legalism pointing to Christ hanging on the cross. When following this shadow we found Christ we saw that this commandment, along with all the rest of the 613, had been nailed to Christ's cross.
.....

I believe Jesus was (and is) God. It is evident you do not.

Yes, servant seems to be speaking in redundancies on this point and it sounds nice but lacks logical and biblical support.

The 10 commandments are constantly referred to as the 'commandments of God' right alongside the supposed 'commandments of Jesus'. servant would have us believe that these commandments are 'love' and 'Jesus' words in particular', separate from the 'commandments of God'.

What he fails to realize is that even in the NT, we have the 'commandments of God' mentioned too and not just the 'commandments of Jesus'. Apparently, servant would have us believew that we have two separate sets of commandments from two deities mentioned alongside each other. In other words, they are not the same thing and when it says 'if you love me, keep my commandments' it only means observe the love that Jesus tells us.

How nice and fluffy. Where's the substance?

Why, it is merely the law of love found in the ten commandments!

The 'law of love' is merely a summation of the commandments. To say that the commandments are not laws of love is to not only be nonsense, but to directly contradict Christ, Paul, Peter and James.

It makes God guilty of giving arbitrary laws that have nothing to do with love. This is obviously contradictory because we see that love for God and man are completely ingrained in the 10 commandments.

You cannot separate them into two things. The law is love.

 

[Jay T]

What exactly are God's commandments that you quote from 1 John?? Answer: They are the commandments of Jesus Christ our God. And nowhere among them will be found, for instance, the Fourth Commandment of Exodus 20.Oh, I pray that God will give people open eyes, to study the 'WHOLE' Bible. It was only a long shadow on the desert floor of legalism pointing to Christ hanging on the cross. When following this shadow we found Christ we saw that this commandment, along with all the rest of the 613, had been nailed to Christ's cross.
.....

I believe Jesus was (and is) God. It is evident you do not.
Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
For I am the LORD, I change not

It must be remembered that some people who claim to be Christians, refuse to study 'all' of God's word.

Had they done so....they would have found that Christ was the God, of the Old Testament, as well as the New Testament.

But, even then.....the New Testament tells us, that Christ was there with Moses, (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

 

[Mr. Lee]

How interesting

The sabbath day is either the day devoted to sun worship (Sunday)
or the day devoted to the worship of Saturn (Saturday).
Whats wrong the the day of the Moon (monday), the
god Tiwe (Tuesday), the god Woden (Wednesday), the
god Thor (Thursday), the goddess Frye (Friday)
Perhaps December was the month chosen for Jesus's birth month
because it is one of the months not named for a God or Goddess.

 

[Ajax 777]

Er, not to be rude, Mr. Lee --- but what, exactly, is your point?

 

[Mr. Lee]

Think about it--
all this uproar about the Sabbath (here in Arizona, there are
Mormon car companies wanting to make selling cars on Sunday
illegal because they have to be closed) Which day is the Sabbath,
which day is holy. And the days are named for the worship of
pagan Gods. Is the God Saturn's day holier than the Sun God's
day (Aten)? You don't see the humor in that?
:

 

[Ajax 777]

Well, yeah, now that you mention it....however, I don't necessarily the people of Judea at the time called the days of the week what we call it in the modern day...but I suppose the irony is still there...hum...

Anyway, thanks for answering.

 

[Vic C.]

Well, yeah, now that you mention it....however, I don't necessarily the people of Judea at the time called the days of the week what we call it in the modern day...but I suppose the irony is still there...hum...

Anyway, thanks for answering.

They didn't. They had Hebrew names for the months and the days were numbered. But... what they considered the seventh day of the week was and still our current day of the week, give aprox. six hours.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Think about it--
all this uproar about the Sabbath (here in Arizona, there are
Mormon car companies wanting to make selling cars on Sunday
illegal because they have to be closed) Which day is the Sabbath,
which day is holy. And the days are named for the worship of
pagan Gods. Is the God Saturn's day holier than the Sun God's
day (Aten)? You don't see the humor in that?
:

Sputnik: I really am not sure of your point either, Mr. Lee. The unintended point you DO make, however, is as to how some denominations are so passionate about the day THEY perceive to be their Sabbath (Sunday) that they want that day to be considered sacred. They want no buying and selling, no Sunday trading at all. Any number of Christians here in Australia are highly offended at the way Sunday (the Christian Sabbath) has been trampled underfoot over the years. People have made God's Sabbath (Sunday) into a mockery. They would have that day as the official day of rest.

Hmmm. Strange ...for two reasons. First, many mainliners believe that NT Christians said 'bye bye' to the Ten Commandments at the cross anyway, of which 'the Sabbath command' is included. So, if that be the case, why is Sunday therefore to be considered sacred? The Sabbath has gone too with the rest of the commands.

Second, they are passionate about the wrong day anyway. So, forget about the actual names of the days, Mr. Lee, and simply count them off chronologically starting with Sunday as the first day. Then, check out your Bible for the day that God blessed and sanctified at Creation. Where is the humor in the fact that it's God's ACTUAL Sabbath (the 7th-day) that most Christians have trampled underfoot? No uproar, Mr. Lee, just the facts.
:smt018

 

[Jay T]

Think about it--
all this uproar about the Sabbath (here in Arizona, there are
Mormon car companies wanting to make selling cars on Sunday
illegal because they have to be closed)

Of course, satan has always used force, to push his way.
Scripture tells us in (Daniel 7:25.....'think to change times and laws') that satan arranged for men (inspired by satan) to change God's laws regarding time (4th commandment, Exodus 20:8-11).

Which day is the Sabbath,
which day is holy.

It must be remembered that only God can make anything holy, ok ?
God made the 7th day holy, and He placed his blessing upon it (Genesis 2:2,3), for only those people who believe God enough, to observe the very day which God set up as a sign of the relationship God has with those that believe in HIM (Ezekiel 20/20)

And the days are named for the worship of
pagan Gods. Is the God Saturn's day holier than the Sun God's
day (Aten)? You don't see the humor in that?
:[/quote]

 

[SputnikBoy]

Actually, Saturday (7th-day) observance would be an inconvenience for most if the majority on this forum were being honest. There was an acquaintance I knew several years ago who was quite a staunch SDA. Someone else on this forum knows the person I'm talking about.

Anyway, his business flourished on Saturdays when so many customers were free to depart with their cash. So, he found 'flaws' in the SDA doctrines ...especially the one pertaining to the keeping of the Sabbath (which is scriptural, NOT SDA anyway). While he would never have admitted to this, he and his family left the church based on the inconvenience of having to close the business on Saturdays.

Saturday, for most, is NOT the day they choose to drop everything and concentrate on God. I believe that all of the arguing on these forums about 'the Sabbath issue' is based on nothing other than 'inconvenience' and an unwillingness to change a cherished routine. Sure, the Bible is dragged out to 'support' mainstream Christian tradition but only as a crutch. Someone, feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

 

[hopefearmercy]

sabbath


The sabbath.....is 7 days from the beginning of the week....which is saturday....sunday was given to the Christains because of Constantine.....people then, use to worship the SUN-GOD mithras....thus...SUNDAY.

simple.

hopefearmercy

saba=7

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: sabbath

The sabbath.....is 7 days from the beginning of the week....which is saturday....sunday was given to the Christains because of Constantine.....people then, use to worship the SUN-GOD mithras....thus...SUNDAY.

simple.

hopefearmercy

saba=7

Sputnik: Others on this forum will (quite rightly) say that Christians were 'keeping' Sunday well before Constantine's mandate. You are quite correct, however, that Constantine made the change from the 7th-day Sabbath to SUNday (1st-day) official. This is a historical fact that no one can deny. And, whether the early church fathers took this 'change' on board either before Constantine or after, it was done without the authority of God. For some reason, many Christians believe that those of antiquity (early church fathers) had special rights to tamper with God's commands that we of today don't.

 

[Servant_2000]

Actually, the Catholics claim that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and they claim that this demonstrates their authority. The great irony I see in all this is that only the Catholics and the Adventists believe that the Catholic church under Constantine changed the day. Christians understand that early believers began to worship on Sunday because they were honoring Jesus' resurrection_not to mention that Pentecost, the birth of the church, was also on Sunday.

There has never been a true change of Sabbath to Sunday. Saturday is still the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. If one claims to keep the 10 Commandments, that person should also be worshiping on Saturday and keeping that day as outlined in Exodus and Leviticus. The New Covenant changed everything; Jesus is now real, and rest in Him has replaced the shadow of a weekly day of rest.

Christians worship on Sunday not because the day is sacred, not because the sacredness has been transferred from Saturday, not because someone declared the day changed--none of these things. They worship on Sunday simply out of tradition and remembrance and even convenience. Christians do not consider Sunday to be holy.

Isn't it amusing that the argument for the central teaching of Adventism, the Sabbath, is bolstered by Catholic claims? Evangelists delight in quoting Catholic literature "proving" that the church changed the day. But those claims do not make it a universal truth, and those claims do not explain the early Christians' worship on Sunday long before there was a Constantine!

 

[SputnikBoy]

Actually, the Catholics claim that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and they claim that this demonstrates their authority. The great irony I see in all this is that only the Catholics and the Adventists believe that the Catholic church under Constantine changed the day. Christians understand that early believers began to worship on Sunday because they were honoring Jesus' resurrection_not to mention that Pentecost, the birth of the church, was also on Sunday.

Sputnik: All of which was done without the authority of God. Just because one's intentions might be honorable doesn't give any human the divine authority to 'traditionalize' a new sabbath. Didn't God reject Cain's offering? Whether said in ignorance or not, most Christians would say, "Sunday", if asked, "Which day of the week is the Sabbath?" Mainstream Christianity has accepted Sunday as the Sabbath, no question about it. Many on this forum consider Sunday as being the day on which no work is done.

servant: There has never been a true change of Sabbath to Sunday. Saturday is still the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. If one claims to keep the 10 Commandments, that person should also be worshiping on Saturday and keeping that day as outlined in Exodus and Leviticus. The New Covenant changed everything; Jesus is now real, and rest in Him has replaced the shadow of a weekly day of rest.

Sputnik: The New Covenant did NOT change everything at all. Jesus' death and resurrection changed the old sacrificial laws, NEVER the moral laws. The blood of bulls and goats and all that this entailed were gone. The Sabbath of the 4th-commandent was no more a shadow than 'thou shalt not kill', steal, etc. These (ten) were the commandments that were carved into stone by the finger of God as an everlasting memorial. We've gone into the issue of which were the commandments that were abolished and those that still remain so many times that EVERYONE should have caught on by now. Evidently not. Those who uphold Sunday are those who push the abolition of ALL of the commandments. Getting rid of just the 4th-command would be problematic, best to get rid of them all.

servant: Christians worship on Sunday not because the day is sacred, not because the sacredness has been transferred from Saturday, not because someone declared the day changed--none of these things. They worship on Sunday simply out of tradition and remembrance and even convenience. Christians do not consider Sunday to be holy.

Sputnik: Most Christians worship on Sunday because that's the day their church opens its doors for worship ...nothing more deep and meaningful than that. Christianity (ANY religion, I guess) is a 'belief system'. It's what we believe that is important. MOST Christians, as already stated, BELIEVE Sunday to be the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. Do a survey and I'll wager (do Christians wager?) that the overwhelming majority of the 'average Joes' will say that Sunday is the Sabbath. They (most) will even go as far as saying that SUNDAY is the seventh-day of the week! That's because tradition has programmed them into believing that Monday is the FIRST (working) day of the week. You should know that to be true, servant, so why do we need to continually cover the same ground?

servant: Isn't it amusing that the argument for the central teaching of Adventism, the Sabbath, is bolstered by Catholic claims? Evangelists delight in quoting Catholic literature "proving" that the church changed the day. But those claims do not make it a universal truth, and those claims do not explain the early Christians' worship on Sunday long before there was a Constantine!

Sputnik: The arrogant claims by the Catholic Church of having changed the Sabbath don't cut any ice with me, servant. But, be that as it may, you do acknowledge that Catholic literature DOES take credit for having changed the Sabbath, so why would not SDA enangelists quote their claim? Catholicism is a powerful force and any claim that it makes is worthy of being reported and, perhaps, challenged.

The implication you give, servant, is that it might be one thing for the Catholic Church to have 'changed' the Sabbath but that it becomes a non-issue as long as the early Christians did so. That take on this issue always tickles me. It's okay (and evidently approved by God) as long as THEY were responsible for 'the change' that swept up mainstream Christianity it its wake. Would it be better, perhaps, if the SDA Church concentrated its 'attack' on 'the little people' instead of the Roman Catholic Church? Wouldn't we still be debating the same issue regardless of who 'the culprit' was?

The issue is perhaps not so much WHO changed the day (well, that IS the issue ultimately) but that the day WAS changed without the authority from God. If the early Catholic Church changed the solemnty of the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day on its own authority, then it was wrong. But, listen up. If the early Church Fathers changed the solemnty of the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day on their own authority, then it was JUST AS WRONG.

I would think (opinion only) that a few people keeping both the seventh day and the first day 'holy', even eventually opting for the first day, would be perhaps something God may wink at. It could be a different story, however, should a major politico/religious system make the change official and, by doing so, convert most of mainstream Christianity to its mandate. Is it stubbornness that prevents such as yourself, servant, from even CONSIDERING that this entire 'Sabbath business' just MIGHT be important in the scheme of things? Forget 'Adventism'. Surely this issue goes beyond mere denominational labels and has a life all of its own.

 

[Moge]

Saturday or Sunday; what difference does it make if you are straining at gnats and swallowing camels over it?
Strivings and divisions among brethren over something as trivial as which day to keep as the Sabbath has it's origins in nothing more than the flesh, and is an open declaration of your own immaturity.

Grow up! If you get high-centered on something as meaningless as the Sabbath, what are you going to do when you have to judge angels? You won't just high-center, you will vapor-lock and your brain will explode. Then I will have a mess to clean up. This thread should never have made it past three pages.

Thank you very much!
God bless you one and all.

BTW: I like the spell check feature of the html-area box. Nice touch. Makes me look intelligent.

 

[guibox]

Actually, the Catholics claim that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and they claim that this demonstrates their authority. The great irony I see in all this is that only the Catholics and the Adventists believe that the Catholic church under Constantine changed the day. Christians understand that early believers began to worship on Sunday because they were honoring Jesus' resurrection_not to mention that Pentecost, the birth of the church, was also on Sunday.

Only the ignorant (be they SDAs or not) will believe that Constantine 'changed' the day. He did not as Sunday was kept in the second century. I don't believe that the Catholics believe it either, servant. Don't show your own ignorance while trying to expose others'. One merely has to look at Justin Martyr and Barnabas in 135 A.D when they made an appeal to Emperor Hadrian to distance themselves from the Jews by emphasising Sunday over Sabbath. This action and mindset was mostly due to anti-semistism rather than doctrinal dispute. Also the primary reasoning given by both these two was not to honor the resurrection but to appeal to creation as the creation of the 'Sun/Son' making an 'eighth day'. The first day the 'sun' was created giving light, the eighth day, the 'Son' came forth signifying a new era.

A lot of bunk and smoke and mirrors for bigotry if you ask me.

However, to say that that the early Christians (particularly the Apostolic Christians) were worshipping on Sunday to honor the resurrection or that when this did occur it was a universal practice for Christianity is equally as false. Rather we see through blatant and implied evidence that the Sabbath was kept and was important to the bible Christians.

We also see through history that the Christian church in Jerusalem (the hub and head of all Christendom at the time) was keeping the Sabbath into the 4th century. That right there should tell you that the Sabbath/Sunday dichotomy wasn't as cut and dried as you'd like to think. One therefore should be extremely cautious in trying to use Paul's writings to abolish Sabbath and promote Sunday worship.

 

[John the Baptist]

Saturday or Sunday; what difference does it make if you are straining at gnats and swallowing camels over it?
Strivings and divisions among brethren over something as trivial as which day to keep as the Sabbath has it's origins in nothing more than the flesh, and is an open declaration of your own immaturity.

Grow up! If you get high-centered on something as meaningless as the Sabbath, what are you going to do when you have to judge angels? You won't just high-center, you will vapor-lock and your brain will explode. Then I will have a mess to clean up. This thread should never have made it past three pages.

Thank you very much!
God bless you one and all.

BTW: I like the spell check feature of the html-area box. Nice touch. Makes me look intelligent.

*****
Grow up?? Wow! :

What do you make of this direct conversation in Genesis between Christ & Cain? (and surely the serpent was right there awaiting the blunder, huh?)

"And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy continence fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire."

A sun offering for a God Commanded set aside 7th Holy day one? Not much in dis/obedience has changed, as I see it! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15

---John

 

[Scott]

A sun offering for a God Commanded set aside 7th Holy day one?

Funny, considering "The Son" was teaching in the temples on Sundays, along with every other day. Sun offering is just SDA propaganda. Son offering would have been a better way to state it.