A message for all Sabbath breakers.....Owned!!

[dcookcan]

Funny, considering "The Son" was teaching in the temples on Sundays, along with every other day. Sun offering is just SDA propaganda. Son offering would have been a better way to state it.

Simantics

Please provide some kind of reference to validate your statements. I do not study nor have I studied SDA doctrine, yet I agree that Sabbath observance is for christians and that Sunday observance is misguided at best. He is also LORD of the Sabbath (not Lord of abolishing Sabbath).

 

[cj]

As a man seated on the throne of God in the heavens, does Jesus keep the 7th day Sabbath of the commandments?

In love,
cj

 

[dcookcan]

As a man seated on the throne of God in the heavens, does Jesus keep the 7th day Sabbath of the commandments?

In love,
cj

Does He not keep it?

 

[Scott]

Please provide some kind of reference to validate your statements.

No problem!!

Matthew 26:55, Mark 14:49, Luke 13:32-33, Luke 19:47, Luke 21:37-38, Luke 22:53, John 5:17-18, John 6, Acts 5:42

See also Luke 2:37

yet I agree that Sabbath observance is for christians

Please show me where Jesus commands this specifically while here in His earthly ministry.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Saturday or Sunday; what difference does it make if you are straining at gnats and swallowing camels over it?
Strivings and divisions among brethren over something as trivial as which day to keep as the Sabbath has it's origins in nothing more than the flesh, and is an open declaration of your own immaturity.

Grow up! If you get high-centered on something as meaningless as the Sabbath, what are you going to do when you have to judge angels? You won't just high-center, you will vapor-lock and your brain will explode. Then I will have a mess to clean up. This thread should never have made it past three pages.

Thank you very much!
God bless you one and all.

BTW: I like the spell check feature of the html-area box. Nice touch. Makes me look intelligent.

Sputnik: Well, almost.

 

[Scott]

Also,

Simantics

Sun and Son are two different words with different meanings. There is no confusion here.

 

[dcookcan]

Also,

Quote:
Simantics


Sun and Son are two different words with different meanings. There is no confusion here.

So you are acknowledging that SUNday worship is not about the SON.

I will take the time to respond to you other post intelligently.

 

[Scott]

So you are acknowledging that SUNday worship is not about the SON.

I will take the time to respond to you other post intelligently.

Do you read maps this way too?

Like I said before and also provided the reference you requested (numerous ones at that), Jesus was teaching at the temple on Sunday's and every other day. If you're foolish enough to buy into the SDA propaganda about sun offering being the reason for people worshipping on Sunday's, then let me be the first to let you know that your reasoning and understanding skills are very suspect. Had you read the verses I posted you would have seen my point. Maybe you'll take the time now to answer the question I posted to you 2 posts ago.

 

[dcookcan]

So you are acknowledging that SUNday worship is not about the SON.

I will take the time to respond to you other post intelligently.

Do you read maps this way too?

Like I said before and also provided the reference you requested (numerous ones at that), Jesus was teaching at the temple on Sunday's and every other day. If you're foolish enough to buy into the SDA propaganda about sun offering being the reason for people worshipping on Sunday's, then let me be the first to let you know that your reasoning and understanding skills are very suspect. Had you read the verses I posted you would have seen my point. Maybe you'll take the time now to answer the question I posted to you 2 posts ago.

As stated previously, I have not studied, nor do I plan to study, SDA doctrine. Obviously you did not take much time to read my response:

I will take the time to respond to your other post intelligently.

You got an equally intelligent rebuttal to your statement on simantics. Now that I have witnessed your knee-jerk reaction to this, I am hesitant to respond to your other post; however, I have already done the work and will respond anyway. We'll see if you actually give it the time of day.

 

[Scott]

You got an equally intelligent rebuttal to your statement on simantics.

I thought the first time around conveyed my point effectively. I took your response to my semantics reply as an example of someone completely not reading my previous post and furthermore not understanding what it was that I was responding to in JtB's post about sun offering in the first place.

Sun worship is completely bogus when it was clear that Jesus treated no day differently. He healed on the Sabbath & taught in the temple on it too. Many of you fail to understand that righteousness supercedes the law, it always has. We are judged by our motives and convictions, not by laws. So you can tell us all you want that its wrong to worship on Sunday, or Wednesday or Friday or Tuesday or any other day but its just not true. Galatians 4:10-11 shows Paul's concern for the Galatians because they practiced a similar ideology to what SDA's tell us is mandatory today. Think about the times Jesus was asked which commandments one must keep, and we find He never mentioned the Sabbath day. The Sabbath wasn't abolished, it was fulfilled. Rest is found in Jesus, not a day of the week.

 

[dcookcan]

Please provide some kind of reference to validate your statements.

No problem!!

Matthew 26:55, Mark 14:49, Luke 13:32-33, Luke 19:47, Luke 21:37-38, Luke 22:53, John 5:17-18, John 6, Acts 5:42

See also Luke 2:37

[quote:ca0ce]yet I agree that Sabbath observance is for christians

Please show me where Jesus commands this specifically while here in His earthly ministry.[/quote:ca0ce]

Matthew 26:55, Mark 14:49, Luke 19:47, Luke 22:53:
All of these scriptures refer to Jesus teaching in the temple in plain sight of the scribes and pharisees on several occasions. There is no reference to what days of the week He is refering to. In its proper context, we understand that he is calling the scribes and pharisees cowards for trying to ambush Him outside of the temple where there would be few witnesses.

Luke 13:32-33
He cast out demons and healed the sick today, tommorrow and the third day. So what? He did not only heal people on the Sabbath, every day is a good day to receive salvation.

Luke 21:37-38
He taught in the temple during the day. No mention of which day.

John 5:17-18
Jesus is accused of breaking the Sabbath (according to the traditions and fables of the scribes and pharisees). There is no such commandment that you cannot heal (do good) on the Sabbath. On the contrary.

John 6
I don't see any relevance. Jesus is the bread of life. Some of His disciples abandon Him because they did not understand what He meant when He said "you must eat my flesh and drink my blood". Many catholics believe they are actually eating flesh and blood at mass. Do you actually eat His flesh and blood during communion?

Luke 2:37
A prophetess who never left the temple. So what? The only thing this proves is that the temple operated every day. Did you not know that there was a daily offering made in the temple; hence, Sabbath was not the only day that the Jews worshipped? I did because I have actually taken the time to study ALL SCRIPTURE.

Did I waste my time reading this? What is your point? This does not have anything to do with "SDA propaganda".

So here are some scriptures for you to ponder.
Luke 6:5, Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28 He is LORD of the Sabbath. What does that mean?...think about it.

Matthew 24:20 Why would Jesus tell us to pray that our flight would not happen on a Sabbath?

Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1, Luke 23:54-56 When the ladies arrived at the tomb at the dawning of the first day (i.e. Sunday), the tomb was empty. He was already gone. Jesus was resurrected on the Sabbath. They did not realize this until the next day. The Sunday ressurection is a fallacy.

Mark 1:21, 6:2
Luke 4:16, 31; 6:6; 13:10
It was Jesus custom to go to the synagogue (the 'church' of the day) on Sabbath to teach.

Acts 13:14 It was the apostles' custom to teach in the synagogue on the Sabbath.

Acts 17:2; 18:4 It was Paul's custom to teach in the synagogue on the Sabbath.

Acts 13:42-44 The gentiles wanted to be and were taught on the Sabbath.

Acts 15:21 Moses is read every Sabbath in the synagogue; hence, James was saying that the gentiles coming to faith would learn about Moses in the synagogue. (I guess he couldn't see the church coming where Moses would be mocked every Sunday).

Acts 1:12 What does a Sabbath days journey have to do with anything if Jesus death on the cross has put an end to all that foolishness.

Col 2:16 Let no man judge you. (I am certainly not going to let you or any other man judge me on Sabbath days, new moons or what I refuse to eat. Only God will be my judge.)

1 John 2:6 walk as He walked. Is it not the slightest bit apparent to you that Jesus demonstrated how to keep the Sabbath, as well as all of HIS commandments? How you define what it is like to walk as He walked.

2 John 1:6 Walk in HIS commandments. This is love. This is how I love God for what He did for me.

Take care.

 

[dcookcan]

Sun worship is completely bogus when it was clear that Jesus treated no day differently. He healed on the Sabbath & taught in the temple on it too. So you can tell us all you want that its wrong to worship on Sunday, or Wednesday or Friday or Tuesday or any other day but its just not true.

This is your error. I have never stated that you cannot worship on any day you chose. That is not what Sabbath is about. Sabbath is about respecting what God has requested. You are trying to stuff me into a box that I won't fit into (SDA).

Galatians 4:10-11 shows Paul's concern for the Galatians because they practiced a similar ideology to what SDA's tell us is mandatory today.

You obviously have a poor understanding of the time, people and context of Paul's exhortation to the Galatians.

Many of you fail to understand that righteousness supercedes the law, it always has.

I need a scripture reference.

We are judged by our motives and convictions, not by laws.

Scripture says we will be judged based on our WORKS. I thought maybe you have read the scriptures.

Think about the times Jesus was asked which commandments one must keep, and we find He never mentioned the Sabbath day. The Sabbath wasn't abolished, it was fulfilled. Rest is found in Jesus, not a day of the week.

Salvation is found in Jesus and rest is available through Him. The Sabbath has definately been filled full with meaning through Jesus. Doesn't mean I am going to turn away from it (the Sabbath) or Him.

It may shock you, but the Talmud and Mishnah contain multiple references to the statements as to which commandment is the most important. They do not reference Jesus (obviously), but their comments are word for word the same. If you love God (first commandment) you will not have idols, you will honour the Sabbath day, etc. If you love your neighbour, you will not covet his wife or his possessions, you will not kill him, you will not bear false witness against him, etc. But I digress. All of this cannot be comprehended without the guidance and teaching by the Holy Spirit, which I am not. But in the hopes that maybe someone who reads this will get prompted to study what the scriptures actually say, with the leading of the Holy Spirit, perhaps they will turn towrds God and repent from their sins (transgession of God's laws).

 

[Scott]

Matthew 26:55, Mark 14:49, Luke 13:32-33, Luke 19:47, Luke 21:37-38, Luke 22:53, John 5:17-18, John 6, Acts 5:42

I notice how readily you dismiss the point of these verses and what they say. But the recurrent theme runs through them whether you turn a blind eye to them or not. Everyday, not just Sabbath day and a couple other days. He was teaching on various days as its noted throughout the Gospels.

He did not only heal people on the Sabbath, every day is a good day to receive salvation.

Thank you, you just proved my point. Whether teaching or healing, He didn't hold back because of which day of the week it was. The lost need saving 24/7, but I'm sure you now realize this.

He taught in the temple during the day. No mention of which day.

It doesn't need to, it just goes to show He didn't reserve special treatment for special days.

On the contrary.

: ... check out Matthew 12. Men and woman died for desecrating the Sabbath in the OT, Jesus however did not break the Sabbath because His motives weren't self-seeking. An example of righteousness surpassing the law. Another example would be David referred to in verse 4, no punishment or condemnation. Righteousness absolving one from the law. God knows the heart.

John 6
I don't see any relevance.

John 6:16, 22. Consecutive days, not just one day teaching and healing. No special treatment of days here either. Hmmmm!!?

A prophetess who never left the temple. So what?

An example of someone worshipping on consecutive days too, not just the Sabbath day.

Did I waste my time reading this? What is your point?

You wasted your time giving patchwork replies to verses that are clear enough. Others (John 6), I'm sure you saw the relevance but you decided it would be more fun to find a part of the chapter that didn't apply. It doesn't matter man, the writing is on the wall.

This does not have anything to do with "SDA propaganda".

For someone who doesn't know anything about SDA doctrine, then how could you identify evidence refuting the very thing you claim not to be educated in?!? You're giving me hollow words here, why try to defend what doesn't represent you. Maybe you should rethink of why you addressed my post in the first place because you've obviously made no points thus far.

He is LORD of the Sabbath. What does that mean?...think about it.

Hebrews 4 spells it out for you. The risen Saviour has fulfilled the requirements of the law. That includes the Sabbath. My rest is in Him.

Why would Jesus tell us to pray that our flight would not happen on a Sabbath?

: ... I love this one because it always delivers quite a punch. Check out Matthew 24:16. Who is Jesus talking to?! Who lives near Judea? Who still rejects the Saviour and practices the law? Who is know for following the Sabbath even today? The answer isn't such a long walk after all, huh?!! Its all in the context friend.

Jesus was resurrected on the Sabbath.

Prove it boss. Its common knowledge that each day begins at sundown. You have 12 or so that are unaccounted for. Those 12 hours regardless of how you rationalize them, they belong to resurrection Sunday. Yet even in the final hours on that Sabbath you would have thought the quards would have noticed that the stone was rolled away, I mean it was still light out. Funny how the obvious things become hard to grasp when you try to pass something that isn't provable off as true. Call it a fallacy, I'm not the one who lacks the evidence though either :fadein: .

It was the apostles' custom to teach in the synagogue on the Sabbath.

I've given you evidence in Acts 5:42 already.

(I am certainly not going to let you or any other man judge me on Sabbath days

Don't twist my words. I've never condemned anyone for worshipping on any day. You choose Saturday....great. Tuesday.....fine. Romans 14:5 says it nicely.

How you define what it is like to walk as He walked.

Get going then on your 40 day fast then. You've got big shoes to fill.

Walk in HIS commandments.

As I asked before, show me where He commanded Sabbath keeping. I recall Jesus talking with the rich young man in Mark 10, yet He doesn't say anything about keeping the Sabbath day. Hmmm, interesting?!!?

 

[Scott]

This is your error. I have never stated that you cannot worship on any day you chose.

These are your words, not mine....

and that Sunday observance is misguided at best.

You can change your tune now, thats fine. I just thought I'd point out that earlier your fervor towards Sunday wasn't quite the same. Enough said I think.

You obviously have a poor understanding of the time, people and context of Paul's exhortation to the Galatians.

Yet it was reaffirmed by Romans 14:5. How strange. :-?

I need a scripture reference.

Matthew 12 & Matthew 5:20

Scripture says we will be judged based on our WORKS.

Works are not the laws. What we do is based on our motives and convictions. God judges the heart. We're either under grace or we are not. I'm under former.

Doesn't mean I am going to turn away from it (the Sabbath) or Him.

Keep it Holy. What days of the week should we live unHoly then?! I'm not a oneday Christian.

They do not reference Jesus (obviously)

That's enough for me. I'll gladly accept His gift of grace, rather than be a slave to the law.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Scott: The Sabbath wasn't abolished, it was fulfilled. Rest is found in Jesus, not a day of the week.

Sputnik: So much to respond to ...even though we're basically covering the same ground. I have just a couple of points to make right now. We're told over and over again by those who would have the Ten Commandments done away with (well, the 4th-commandment, anyway) that Jesus, having fulfilled the law, then made them null and void. I don't see it that way at all particularly since, just moments earlier, He says that He didn't come to abolish the law. I see the word 'fulfill' as used by Jesus in reference to the law as meaning that He had kept the law perfectly. He had, in effect, fulfilled the REQUIREMENTS of the law by a lifetime of obedience. He had lived the law perfectly, just as we might strive to do so.

I don't see anywhere where Jesus even hinted that the ideal requirements of a Christian (a follower of Him) were to be anything less than obedience to God the Father. But then, of course, we aren't REALLY talking here about the rest of the commandments having been abolished are we? It really IS just the 4th-commandment that irks people so much.

I mean, I'm sure that even you, Scott, would appreciate that no one attempt to kill you, or to steal from you, or to commit adultery with ... In fact, I feel that you would object very strongly to any of these offenses WHOEVER they are directed at. Why? Because you believe in upholding the principles of the law (God's law) as well as the law of the land. You would also, I'm sure, take exception to someone blaspheming the name of Jesus or worshiping some other God. Neither of these are, as far as I know, a violation of the law of the land. I'm sure that you disapprove of adultery or dishonoring one's parents, which are NOT against the law of the land either. If they were, the majority of the population would be locked up.

So, why are we arguing the law (God's law) here when, I'm sure, you uphold the law anyway? I can't quite figure it out. Then again, I guess I can.

 

[SputnikBoy]

dcookcan: This is your error. I have never stated that you cannot worship on any day you chose. That is not what Sabbath is about. Sabbath is about respecting what God has requested. You are trying to stuff me into a box that I won't fit into (SDA).

Sputnik: While I can appreciate your not wanting to be pidgeon-holed (neither do I) I don't think that you need to justify yourself (possibly inadvertantly) to Scott. Whatever issues that Scott may have against SDAs we're debating a topic here that really has nothing to do with the SDA Church ...as you rightly inferred. HOWEVER, you could do far worse than to study the doctrines of the SDAs (as you alluded to in another post) since you would find many of them to be interesting as well as scripturally sound.

I'm pretty well open-minded, scripturally speaking, fairly intellectual and articulate (hmm ...??) and not easily 'taken in' (as in gullible). With such credentials how could you NOT believe me when I say that, on the whole, SDA doctrines are 100% Bible, so why NOT study them? Since I'm on a roll, I'm also a great musician, singer, songwriter, human being, well traveled, creative, a respected leader, lover of exotic foods, Star Trek, small animals (?) ... ...etc.

 

[cj]

As a man seated on the throne of God in the heavens, does Jesus keep the 7th day Sabbath of the commandments?

In love,
cj

Does He not keep it?

Are those in the heavens subject to the days of the earth?

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

We're told over and over again by those who would have the Ten Commandments done away with (well, the 4th-commandment, anyway) that Jesus, having fulfilled the law, then made them null and void.

This is an untrue representation SputnikBoy.

What is being said is that in Him....... again....... IN HIM...... we fulfill what He has fulfilled.

His righteousness, which covers/meets all God's requirements is also now ours, for thise who believe.

In Christ we have eternally fulfilled the requiremnt of the Sabbath of God.

This is absolutely not the same thing as what you stated above regarding what we are saying.

Paul declares this truth in an absolute and complete way in his opening words to the church in Thessalonica........"to the church of the Thessalonians IN God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ..."

The fact is, the church, which is to say every believer, is already positionally IN the Son and all that He has accomplished. Even more, Paul tells us that the church, all believers, are even IN God the Father.

Genesis 2 says....... God rested from His work on the seventh day...... meaning, God has never worked a day since then, He is in an eternal rest right now. And all believers ARE IN GOD THE FATHER.... right now.

Thus, we are in Him, in His eternal rest, His eternal Sabbath.

Yet, the apostate teaching would have us believe there is a "Sabbath" day to keep.

How we tread underfoot what our Lord has accomplished for us and the Father.

I see the word 'fulfill' as used by Jesus in reference to the law as meaning that He had kept the law perfectly. He had, in effect, fulfilled the REQUIREMENTS of the law by a lifetime of obedience. He had lived the law perfectly, just as we might strive to do so.

Then He would have been no different to any othe man who had "fulfilled" the requirements of the law...... or have you not read the scriptures that tell us that there were men, righteous in the law, even at the time of our Lord's incarnation?

I mean, I'm sure that even you, Scott, would appreciate that no one attempt to kill you, or to steal from you, or to commit adultery with ... In fact, I feel that you would object very strongly to any of these offenses WHOEVER they are directed at. Why? Because you believe in upholding the principles of the law (God's law) as well as the law of the land. You would also, I'm sure, take exception to someone blaspheming the name of Jesus or worshiping some other God. Neither of these are, as far as I know, a violation of the law of the land. I'm sure that you disapprove of adultery or dishonoring one's parents, which are NOT against the law of the land either. If they were, the majority of the population would be locked up.

That's one way of looking at it..... or....... we could see it all as a wonderful God-given opportunity to forgive.

But this would require a changed view, a divine view rather than a natural view. Much as is needed regarding seeing the truth regarding the matter of the Sabbath.

I can't quite figure it out. Then again, I guess I can.

No, actually you can't, if you remain in the natural. As it is impossible to do this from a point of being in the natural.

What you may think you know is nothing more than vanity.


To believe a person must keep the Sabbath by making an outward declaration of human effort, is to expose oneself as abiding in the flesh and not the spirit.

And the flesh can never attain God through its own effort. This is why we have been given the way of the cross.

And the cross does not lead us to a day, it leads us to a Person.


In love,
cj

 

[Scott]

This is an untrue representation SputnikBoy.

I agree CJ, and I think we both know that Sputnik knows it is untrue also. But it basically lets me know that he has trouble refuting those facts, and it suddenly becomes easier to create and refute a position nobody else is endorsing.

Whatever issues that Scott may have against SDAs we're debating a topic here that really has nothing to do with the SDA Church ...as you rightly inferred.

If you take a look at the thread, I posted a reply to JtB's post reaking of SDA doctrine a couple pages ago. dancookcan responded to that post and now you've responded to it too. If you people either don't know anything about SDA doctrine or don't want to be involved in discussion involving it, then why do you keep entering these conversations started by SDA garbage?? The sun worship idea definitely came out of the SDA camp. Don't throw jabs if you don't expect to get them right back.

SDA doctrines are 100% Bible

ROFL... : That should be posted in the Jokes and Humor forum!!

It really IS just the 4th-commandment that irks people so much.

I have no problem with it, but then I can understand the difference between the OC and the NC.

So, why are we arguing the law (God's law) here when, I'm sure, you uphold the law anyway?

The point needs to be made because there are those on this forum that insist that Sabbath keeping identifies true Christians. Whether you keep the Sabbath day or not is irrelevant to me. I can read verses like Romans 14:5 and Galatians 4:10-11 and understand that the law isn't what matters, its the righteousness that does. So Pharisitical teachings and weighing people down with needless burdens is wrong. You (generally speaking) are not the gatekeeper. I get sick to my stomach every time I read the 'Holier than though' posts from the SDA cult fanbase. Maybe that doesn't include you but your little buddies (the old school SDAs) want to keep that doctrine close to the surface. Whether you can accept the truth or not, that is the common link you share with them. You can call in reformed SDA but you share the same mother, and she was a liar and a deceiver. A queen of the cover up. And that leaves your doctrine suspect.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Quote from CJ:
This is an untrue representation SputnikBoy.

Scott: I agree CJ, and I think we both know that Sputnik knows it is untrue also. But it basically lets me know that he has trouble refuting those facts, and it suddenly becomes easier to create and refute a position nobody else is endorsing.

Sputnik: Why do you and CJ feign ignorance to the fact that the majority of mainstream Christians DO believe that obedience to God (through His commandments) was nailed to the cross? Today we see professed Christians whose lifestyles are no different to those of ‘the world’. And why not? Under the premise you support (and which they seem to take to the extreme) actions that are motivated by obedience are not an issue to them. What advice would you have for them?

Previous quote from Sputnik:
Whatever issues that Scott may have against SDAs we're debating a topic here that really has nothing to do with the SDA Church ...as you rightly inferred.

Scott: If you take a look at the thread, I posted a reply to JtB's post reaking of SDA doctrine a couple pages ago. dancookcan responded to that post and now you've responded to it too. If you people either don't know anything about SDA doctrine or don't want to be involved in discussion involving it, then why do you keep entering these conversations started by SDA garbage?? The sun worship idea definitely came out of the SDA camp. Don't throw jabs if you don't expect to get them right back.

Sputnik: Regardless of SDA association with the ‘7th-day’ or the posters to which you refer, the issue is not merely one of ‘Adventists versus whoever’. We really should be able to debate this issue without reference to the SDA Church at all. I need to state once and for all that I am NOT a representative of the SDA Church or its doctrines. I am affiliated with that denomination, yes, but I speak as an individual. I don’t particularly agree with all SDA doctrines just as I don’t particularly agree with the doctrines (or lack of them) of mainstream Christianity.

Previous quote from Sputnik:
SDA doctrines are 100% Bible

Scott: ROFL... That should be posted in the Jokes and Humor forum!!

Sputnik: I sometimes get to the point on threads such as this where I feel a need to lighten up. While I DO believe (through Bible study) that MANY, even MOST, SDA beliefs tally with the scriptures, I am skeptical about others. I’ve mentioned this previously and will probably do so again. The particular remark of mine to which you refer (as well as those that followed in my post) were obviously ‘tongue-in-cheek’ and perhaps SHOULD be relegated to the Jokes and Humor forum. Again, I have stated previously that there probably ARE suspect SDA doctrines.

Previous quote from Sputnik:
It really IS just the 4th-commandment that irks people so much.

Scott: I have no problem with it, but then I can understand the difference between the OC and the NC.

Sputnik: But you DO have a problem with it (the 4th-commandment), Scott. And, the difference between the OC and the NC is in regard to blood sacrifice. A covenant is an agreement between two parties (God and us). It isn’t a one-sided deal where one sits back and reaps the rewards of the benefactor without some conscious effort on their part. The NC eliminates the need for animal sacrifice. We in return make the commitment to be obedient (and worship) God alone. Why is ‘human effort’ by you guys seen as being either too difficult or even unnecessary? Why do you not instead encourage obedience to God, not as a chore but out of love?

Previous quote from Sputnik:
So, why are we arguing the law (God's law) here when, I'm sure, you uphold the law anyway?

Scott: The point needs to be made because there are those on this forum that insist that Sabbath keeping identifies true Christians. Whether you keep the Sabbath day or not is irrelevant to me. I can read verses like Romans 14:5 and Galatians 4:10-11 and understand that the law isn't what matters, its the righteousness that does. So Pharisitical teachings and weighing people down with needless burdens is wrong. You (generally speaking) are not the gatekeeper. I get sick to my stomach every time I read the 'Holier than though' posts from the SDA cult fanbase. Maybe that doesn't include you but your little buddies (the old school SDAs) want to keep that doctrine close to the surface. Whether you can accept the truth or not, that is the common link you share with them. You can call in reformed SDA but you share the same mother, and she was a liar and a deceiver. A queen of the cover up. And that leaves your doctrine suspect.

Sputnik: We could find something ‘suspect’ about the doctrines of ANY denomination. So, we use our intelligence, our scriptural savvy if we possess it, we understand and accept that there are human factors involved, but we don’t necessarily need to ‘throw out the baby with the bathwater’ because of it. If I were to leave the SDA church, which church would offer me the whole truth and nothing but the truth? For starters I would STILL question WHY mainstream Christians ‘keep’ Sunday instead of the Sabbath, WHY mainstream Christians (mostly) believe in eternal suffering in hell, WHY mainstream Christians believe that, immediately at death one goes either to heaven or hell, etc. etc. And, contrary to what you, Scott, or anyone else may CHOOSE to believe, I would ask these questions, NOT because I’ve been brainwashed by some cult denomination, but because I can clearly see what the SCRIPTURES ALONE have to say about these issues.