A message for all Sabbath breakers.....Owned!!

[Confusion]

Off topic question here... We are allowed to break TOS if we do so to try and learn then correct?

Rule 11 - Respect copyrighted material:
When you copy/paste material please supply a link(s) to your source(s). It is a good idea to do that for two reasons.

A- it gives everyone the chance to check you sources...

B- it gives the credit to the originator of the information and avoids copyright infringement problems.

*Actually though Soma wrote all of that since there was no linkage on the post*

 

[Orthodox Christian]

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/church/ ... lacek.html[/url]

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Jay T:
Not to be argumentative, but Soma Sight simply copy/pasted a lengthy treatise from another site, uncredited. This is, I believe, a TOS violation- but you, being a moderator, would know that better than I.
________________________________________________

Off topic question here... We are allowed to break TOS if we do so to try and learn then correct?

This has been adressed... and no! we are not allowed to break the TOS. :-?

Can you answer me or us these questions, Jay T?

1.Only the old covenant says, Remember the Sabbath. The new covenant never does. But the old covenant also says, Be circumcised. Why?

2. Jesus broke the Sabbath and commanded others to do so. Why?

3. The holy record says only God rested on the seventh day of creation week. There is no record anywhere in Scripture that Adam ever did. Why?

Jay T, by failing to respond you risk losing your world-class title: Defender of the SDA Faith!


You also risk losing your title: Chief Defender of the SDA Faith on 123 Christian Forums.

I'll respond although I am not SDA nor am I a true Sabbatarian. ---> (sabbath=worship)

1-You are confusing God's Moral Laws (10 commandments) with Levitical ceremonial Laws. Two totally different sets of Laws. The Commandments are to be written in our hearts.

2- There has been lots of controversy over this. Jesus didn't really 'break' Sabbath as much as HE redefined it for us. He never commanded us to break them.

3- What does Adam have to do with the Sabbath. It wasn't commanded until I believe, Exodus 16.

 

[Confusion]

Hi Jay T:
Not to be argumentative, but Soma Sight simply copy/pasted a lengthy treatise from another site, uncredited. This is, I believe, a TOS violation- but you, being a moderator, would know that better than I.
________________________________________________

Off topic question here... We are allowed to break TOS if we do so to try and learn then correct?

This has been adressed... and no! we are not allowed to break the TOS. :-?

O, ok... Sorry... was just going of what Jay T said

 

[Jay T]

You still interpret the Sabbath day like the Jews do, Jay. So you are still under the old convenant, not the new one that Christians are under.

By this statement you made....you told me you don't know what the Old Covenant was, and why it failed.
AND...because you don't know what happened there, you have yet to understand about the New Covenant.


Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Point #1.) verse 8....finding fault, with them ?
Who's them ?

Did God's promises fail ?

Or, did the people fail, to abide by the conditions whereby God's promises could be fulfilled ?


That is why the OT must be studied...to understand the NT.

Without an understanding of what happened back there....how can anyone understand, what is happening now ?

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, Jay, but Jesus fulfilled all of the OT laws and replaced them with his sinless nature and unblemished sacrifice once and for all! This includes both the Levitical laws and the Ten commandments. Once we receive Christ's love & forgiveness, that alone enables us to keep the commandments!

Jesus replaced the temple by destroying it and rebuilding it on the third day. That's why the temple curtain tore in half when he died.

Jesus replaced our sacrifices at the altar with his sacrifice on the cross for us.

Jesus replaced unclean foods once we receive his personhood inside of us in the form of the Holy spirit to cleanse our bodies of sin.

Jesus replaced the Sabbath by giving us rest once and for all.

Jesus fulfilled all the laws of the OT so that now, we come to him for cleansing instead of rules & regulations. That is being under Grace, not under the law of the OT to which the Jews are still slaves.

The OT was written to show us how perfect we have to be to enter God's presence and how we can never reach that perfection. The NT shows us the remedy for our imperfection which is Jesus Christ, the blood of the unblemished lamb, that fulfilled all of the OT laws for us once and for all. "It is finished."

Therefore, quibbling about which laws to obey is completely irrelevant and fruitless. They no longer apply to those in Christ Jesus. :D

 

[Jay T]

Sorry, Jay, but Jesus fulfilled all of the OT laws and replaced them with his sinless nature and unblemished sacrifice once and for all! This includes both the Levitical laws and the Ten commandments. Once we receive Christ's love & forgiveness, that alone enables us to keep the commandments!

OK, then why doesn't the modern Christian world keep, God's commandments ?
Especially the one God set as the [sign] of the relationship God has with his True followers:
20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a [sign] between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Therefore, quibbling about which laws to obey is completely irrelevant and fruitless. They no longer apply to those in Christ Jesus.

Really ?
The may I suggest you throw out of your Boible these verses:
#1.) 1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".
#2.)
Matthew 19:16 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".
Which by the way is confirmed in Revelation 22:14.....
Revelation 22:14 "Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city".

Oh....and my favorite.....
Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".
Personally, I believe the 'saints' ...are Christians, don't you ?

And what are they doing....they keep the commandments of God, as found in the OT, surprise ?

 

[Heidi]

Eph. 2:14-15, "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh, the law with its commandments and regulations." Jesus has fulfilled the law for us with his flesh so that all we have to do is receive his love, mercy, and forgiveness from the indwelling Holy Spirit which enables us to keep the commandments. Loving God is the fulfillment of the law because it keeps us from harming our neighbor, thereby obeying the commandemts.

No one can keep the commandments without God's love in the form of the Holy spirit inside of him. The Jews tried but failed. But there are many people who call themselves Christians who do not have the indwelling Holy spirit. It is therefore, impossible for them to keep the commandments. But you cannot tell them to simply obey the commandments unless they first receive the Holy Spirit which enables them to do so. The cup can only be cleaned from the inside, not the outside. Therefore, instead of preaching "Keep the commandments" the only thing one should preach is to ask God for the Holy Spirit which is the only thing that enables us to keep the commandments.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Eph. 2:14-15, "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh, the law with its commandments and regulations." Jesus has fulfilled the law for us with his flesh so that all we have to do is receive his love, mercy, and forgiveness from the indwelling Holy Spirit which enables us to keep the commandments. Loving God is the fulfillment of the law because it keeps us from harming our neighbor, thereby obeying the commandemts.

No one can keep the commandments without God's love in the form of the Holy spirit inside of him. The Jews tried but failed. But there are many people who call themselves Christians who do not have the indwelling Holy spirit. It is therefore, impossible for them to keep the commandments. But you cannot tell them to simply obey the commandments unless they first receive the Holy Spirit which enables them to do so. The cup can only be cleaned from the inside, not the outside. Therefore, instead of preaching "Keep the commandments" the only thing one should preach is to ask God for the Holy Spirit which is the only thing that enables us to keep the commandments.

Sputnik: So, correct me if I'm wrong, you will therefore be 'automatically' keeping the 4th commandment through the Holy Spirit ...right? So, what is the issue here?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Eph. 2:14-15, "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh, the law with its commandments and regulations." Jesus has fulfilled the law for us with his flesh so that all we have to do is receive his love, mercy, and forgiveness from the indwelling Holy Spirit which enables us to keep the commandments. Loving God is the fulfillment of the law because it keeps us from harming our neighbor, thereby obeying the commandemts.

No one can keep the commandments without God's love in the form of the Holy spirit inside of him. The Jews tried but failed. But there are many people who call themselves Christians who do not have the indwelling Holy spirit. It is therefore, impossible for them to keep the commandments. But you cannot tell them to simply obey the commandments unless they first receive the Holy Spirit which enables them to do so. The cup can only be cleaned from the inside, not the outside. Therefore, instead of preaching "Keep the commandments" the only thing one should preach is to ask God for the Holy Spirit which is the only thing that enables us to keep the commandments.

Sputnik: So, correct me if I'm wrong, you will therefore be 'automatically' keeping the 4th commandment through the Holy Spirit ...right? So, what is the issue here?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sputnik: Sorry for the 'double-take' above. I got a little impatient when nothing happened after the first 'click' and so I clicked again. I'll learn.

 

[Servant_2000]

3- What does Adam have to do with the Sabbath. It wasn't commanded until I believe, Exodus 16.

I'll answer the other 2 in time..but for now..

Well then if the Law and the Sabbath were given at mount Siani (Exodus 16) to who was it given.

Exodus 31:12-18
12 ¶ And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying:
`Surely My Sabbaths YOU shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and YOU throughout YOUR generations, that YOU may know that I am the LORD
who sanctifies you.
14 `YOU shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to YOU. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
15 `Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 `Therefore the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout THEIR generations as a perpetual covenant.
17 `It is a sign between Me and the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.'"
18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

So the Sabbath was given to the Children of Israel as a sign of the Covenant (Old Covenant at mt Siani).

How do we know it was not given to the Gentiles as well.

Rom 9:4 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the romises;

So the Law was given to the Israelites and them alone.

Rom 2:14 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law,
are a law to themselves,

So the Gentiles who do not have the Law, so it was not given at creation or to the Gentiles. I wonder if he means ceremonial Law because it would be something all people would have written on their heart, to sacrifice a lamb or a dove or give a grain offering (Christ is the End of Law, Rom 10:4)).

Well maybe now that we are Christians maybe we should keep these Laws?

Acts 15:5-29 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed (They were Christian's kind of like Adventist) rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

Notice it say circumcise AND keep the Law of Moses.

6 ¶ Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,

He gave them the Holy Spirit without the Sabbath, I wonder what Ellen White would say about that considering the Sabbath is the seal.

9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

Notice that Peter says that WE the Jews will be saved in the same manner as THEY, NOT THEY WILL BE SAVE IN THE SAME MANNER AS WE.

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.

WOW! miracles without the Sabbath.

13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 `After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.'
18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works.
19 "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,

Did the Adventist trouble you with Laws of Israel?

20 "but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

So know we go back to what God said to Noah after the Flood Gen 9:3-4

3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. Do you think pigs move?
4 "But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

21 "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

As well as Seventh Day Adventist Churches.
22 ¶ Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and
Cilicia: Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law" --to whom we gave no such commandment--

No Such Commandment I wonder which one of the Ten Commandments that was.

25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

Notice that it is the Holy Spirit who is running the show now.

29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

 

[Servant_2000]

What you did not take into account Vic is that maybe HE IS THE SABBATH, and thus breaking it would show the world that the Sabbath is His, and not a moral Cammandment.

 

[Servant_2000]

Vic

1-You are confusing God's Moral Laws (10 commandments) with Levitical ceremonial Laws. Two totally different sets of Laws. The Commandments are to be written in our hearts.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ the Rock IS the moral law of God written on the hearts of all true believers?

Be of good cheer, for Christ has overcome the world!

Servant

 

[guibox]

He gave them the Holy Spirit without the Sabbath, I wonder what Ellen White would say about that considering the Sabbath is the seal...Did the Adventist trouble you with Laws of Israel? ..As well as Seventh Day Adventist Churches.

Hey, servant, I've got an idea...How about you get off your anti-Adventist kick. It seems to be clouding your judgement as well as your interpretation.

If you must sanctimoniously and piously nit-pick on denominations that keep the Sabbath, why don't you include Seventh Day Baptists. They introduced the Sabbath to the Adventists.

Again, you seem to be bitter about something. It's too bad your attitude stops you from understanding the truth of the Sabbath and its purpose. Instead your legalistic attitude towards it makes you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

"For the law is holy and just and good"
"Do we make void the law through faith? Nay we establish the law!"
"Sin is transgression of the law"
"I would not have known sin were it not for the law"

These texts alone should tell you that you are both wrong and right and that you don't fully understand Paul's take on the law.

Instead you and Heidi have a monopoly on the truth in this matter and are always right :roll:

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, guibox, but we never get tired of refuting false teaching! :angel:

 

[Jay T]

Sputnik: So, correct me if I'm wrong, you will therefore be 'automatically' keeping the 4th commandment through the Holy Spirit ...right? So, what is the issue here?

Glad to hear it !
See you in church, next Saturday.

 

[Servant_2000]

Sorry, guibox, but we never get tired of refuting false teaching! :angel:

I wish him as much of God's blessings as he can absorb. Jesus was right when He said that the gospel is for those who have ears to hear it and Christian witnessing is for those who have eyes to see it.

I'm just happy to know that Jesus is the law written by action of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts.

Another point about answering people like Jay T and quibox:

I understand that there are hundreds of people who regularly visit this website, read the postings, and then leave. And it is these people who are judging us. We should answer the quiboxes and Jay T's, so that these people will see that we do have answers and that we are not just ignoring the arguments of people who disagree, but are answering with the truth in a spirit of love and understanding.

Who knows? Maybe even some of those assigned by the GC to monitor us will be converted?

God works in mysterious ways.

Grace and peace to you, Sister!

 

[Servant_2000]

[quote="guibox]Instead your legalistic attitude towards it makes you throw the baby out with the bathwater.[/quote]

You mentioned "throwing out the baby with the bathwater."

Can we agree that Jesus Christ is "the baby"?

If so, then how have we at this website "thrown out the baby with the bathwater"?

 

[Servant_2000]

Jay T.

I'm going to quote Paul for you -- Colossians 2:13-19, NIV -- and then I will ask you some questions. (i'm still waiting for your other answer's)

Are you game?

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. HE forgave us all our sins, having CANCELED THE WRITTEN CODE, WITH ITS REGULATIONS, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; HE TOOK IT AWAY, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

THEREFORE DO NOT LET ANYONE JUDGE YOU BY WHAT YOU EAT OR DRINK, OR WITH REGARD TO a religious festival, a new moon celebration A SABBATH DAY. THESE ARE A SHADOW of the things that were to come; THE REALITY, however, IS FOUND IN CHRIST. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the THE WORSHIP OF ANGELS disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the hole body, supported and held togethert by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow."

******* Q U E S T I O N *******

I believe that "the written code, with its regulations" was the law of God as found in the first five books of the Bible or Torah. The NIV Study Bible footnote says this: Written code. A business term, meaning a certificate of indebtedness in the debtor's handwriting. Paul uses it as a designation for the Mosaic law, with all its regulations, under which everyone is a debtor to God."

Now do you disagree with this interpretation, which almost all Christian scholars accept? Or do you think the "written code" means something else?

Looking foreward to your answer,