servant_2000 said:
Another point about answering people like Jay T and quibox:
I understand that there are hundreds of people who regularly visit this website, read the postings, and then leave. And it is these people who are judging us. We should answer the quiboxes and Jay T's, so that these people will see that we do have answers and that we are not just ignoring the arguments of people who disagree, but are answering with the truth in a spirit of love and understanding.
Oh please. "servant and Heidi: great keepers of the truth and disputers of cultic thinking!" *cue the trumpet fanfare please..*
Or perhaps they will see your legalistic attitude towards the law and your continual ignorance of context, culture and linguistics in Paul's writings that determine his meaning.
servant_2000 said:
Who knows? Maybe even some of those assigned by the GC to monitor us will be converted?
Again, your foolish comments such as these make you more ignorant then knowledgable. Even if they did such a thing as 'monitor' people, the 'GC' as you call it has more important things to do then monitor nonsense coming from you they haven't heard and disputed from greater scholars and theologians.
As for your (mis)take on Colossians, I posted it twice, I'll post it again.
Perhaps you should read it and really SEE what this chapter is saying instead of imposing your legalistic attitude on it.
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Colossians 2:16
This text has been taken severely out of context, both by those trying to refer to the mosaic laws instead of the moral law in this chapter (sabbath defenders) and those trying to do away with the entire law (sabbath abrogators).
To understand this text, we must also look at the surrounding verses. What were the problems Paul was addressing?
The Colossian heresy being discussed by Paul was not an issue of Jewish observances. The issues were over paganism and gnostic philosophies and leaders who were dictating what was to be followed and how.
1) pagan philosophy of elemental worship and man made traditions (vs 8)
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world and not after Christ"
* - This is hardly talking about any Jewish law or Jewish rulers enforcing scriptural laws
2) angelic worship - vs 18
3) asectic rituals of eating and drinking - vs 20-22
4) debasement of the body to uplift the spirit - vs 18,23
Throughout the whole chapter, Paul is trying to tell the Colossians that Christ is the fulness of life, not bodily, outward rituals that don't mean anything anymore. He is our forgiveness and these ascetic practices will not bring us closer to Christ.
What was nailed to the cross?
The word for ‘handwriting of ordinances’ is cheirographon, has been explained by some as the Mosaic law by Sabbath defenders and the Moral law including the Sabbath by others trying to do away with the Sabbath.
The problem lies in the fact that the word for law is not even found anywhere in this chapter.
If 'cheirographon' could be translated as such, it would not make sense that Christ would crucify what was holy, or that the Sabbath or the 10 commandments was "against us". Plus it would negate the previous verse that talks about Christ’s absolute forgiveness. WHAT IS AGAINST US IS THE WRITTEN RECORD OF OUR SINS
cheirographon is a word that means “written record of sinsâ€Â. It is not the law of any sort. Christ took these ‘sins’ and nailed it to the cross, which He did when he sacrificed Himself for our sins. This was an act of absolute forgiveness. Now, as in vs 15, principalities and powers have nothing to hold against us. This whole chapter is about the forgiveness of Christ. Forgiveness cannot be found when moral laws are done away with. Instead sin and anarchy would reign.
But doesn’t it say that we should not judge anyone of eating and drinking and of sabbath days?
The problem here is that Paul is not warning us against the practices mentioned here, but against “anyone†(in this case, the pagan leaders) who judged them on how they were to be keeping them. Judging from the rest of the chapter, we see that it was strict observance “Do not touch, do not tasteâ€Â. Presumably, the ‘judge’ wanted the people to observe these days in a more ascetic way “severity to the body†vs 21,23. This would include more fasting and less feasting.
Isn't it interesting that out of the blue Paul brings up 'eating and drinking'? Does that mean that we are not to eat and drink anymore? Hardly. We see that this was a part of the pagan celebrations. Though the practices derive from Jewish events, the practice of them was very pagan. The festivals were kept not according to the Jewish Torah, but to the “elements of the universe†(vs 8, 20). This is what Paul was speaking out against, hence the reason why he says, “Let no man judge youâ€Â
If Paul is speaking against the judging of the way to practice these festivals and not the festivals themselves, then Paul is promoting the Sabbath, not diminishing it. Paul is not saying 'Let no man judge you on NOT eating, drinking or keepng Sabbaths' Most likely these Colossians were already keeping these things. The problem was the judging on the WAY they were keeping it.
But doesn’t it also say that “these are a shadow of things to come and the body is of Christ�
The “these†that the verse refers to is not to the five practices mentioned, but the ‘regulations’ put on them. Here are the two main reasons why:
1) The issue in verse 16 is not on the validity of the practices, but on the judgin of how to keep thee days. It logically follows the the se in vs 17 still refers to that issue
2) After verse 17, Paul again talks against the regulations ansd ascetic practices that keep people away from the forgiveness of Christ.
Logically, seeing as the “these†is preceded and followed by counsel against the regulations put upon the people, the “these†is referring to those regulations. This is made more meaningful in the context of Christ's forgiveness in the previous verses.
Paul is saying, "Why do you serve your body and your gods? Christ has forgiven you! You don't need all these rituals and philosophies of your so called 'leaders'! Christ is the body of it all. All you need is Him!"
To take verse 14 and 16 to mean that the law has been nailed to the cross is to make vs 15 null in meaning. It also ignores the context of the entire chapter and the Colossian controversy Paul faced with pagan traditions. (see also Galatians 4:8-11 for the same pagan controversy) This was not an issue of the validity of keeping supposedly abrogated Jewish laws no longer binding on the Christian.
