A message for all Sabbath breakers.....Owned!!

[Jay T]

Well, Jay, all I can say is that when you die, you will then be condemned because according to you, you will be guilty because all of us fall short of the glory of God. All of us.

OK, is that before we ask God to forgive us our sins ...or after ?

I personally believe, that 'before' we ask God to forgive us our sins...we are guilty, and have fallen short.

BUT...'after', we ask God to forgive us our sins...we are guilty of what ?

I refuse to believe that we can be guilty of good...we can only be guilty of bad, right ?

 

[Servant_2000]

You know, it occurred to me that those who accuse others of a serious heresy, such as the SDAs condemning Christianity as a whole for worshipping the "day of the Sun," are often just as guilty of the same heresies of which they accuse their peers, if not more so.

It is becoming clear to me that many SDAs have an idolatrous relationship with the sabbath. The sabbath appears in their writings with exponentially more frequency than Jesus Christ. They have made it the final test of faith rather than belief in Jesus Christ. They have paranoid fear that their nonsabbatarian peers are going to try to kill them over their faithfulness to the sabbath. They change or add to scripture in order to support and perpetuate their habit of sabbath-worship. We often hear how the "sabbath is a blessing" or that "the sabbath should be a delight," but we seldom hear praise for Jesus Christ and His great saving act. That barely evokes a faint "amen." And those who are rejoicing in Jesus Christ are dismissed as "celebrationists."

What we see here is that worship of the Reality--Jesus Christ and His perfect rest--is uprooted and displaced by a worship of the shadow--the sabbath.

This is not unique to SDAs. Many Christians who do not truly understand faith, who have a "yes, but.." religion, who cannot see that Jesus Christ is truly the fulfillment of all things and the "answer to all my questionings," worship the shadow or the symbol rather than the Reality. A good way to test this is to ask this question of someone who is involved with a particular denomination or belief structure:

If you could give me only a single descriptor of what you believe, what would it be? If it is not Jesus Christ and Him crucified, then there is a serious problem.

 

[Heidi]

Well, Jay, all I can say is that when you die, you will then be condemned because according to you, you will be guilty because all of us fall short of the glory of God. All of us.

OK, is that before we ask God to forgive us our sins ...or after ?

I personally believe, that 'before' we ask God to forgive us our sins...we are guilty, and have fallen short.

BUT...'after', we ask God to forgive us our sins...we are guilty of what ?

I refuse to believe that we can be guilty of good...we can only be guilty of bad, right ?

Exactly. Forgiveness is what gets us saved, not obeying every law.

 

[Jay T]

You know, it occurred to me that those who accuse others of a serious heresy, such as the SDAs condemning Christianity as a whole for worshipping the "day of the Sun," are often just as guilty of the same heresies of which they accuse their peers, if not more so.

It is amazing to me , that people who claim to love Jesus, reject the very words He said.
"IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15)


Jesus said.....'go and sin no more', (John 5:14 & 8:11)
And again, those who profess to know and love Jesus say, NO !

But then, I do understand what Romans 8:7 means..... 8:7 "Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be".

 

[Heidi]

[quote="servant_2000":72946]You know, it occurred to me that those who accuse others of a serious heresy, such as the SDAs condemning Christianity as a whole for worshipping the "day of the Sun," are often just as guilty of the same heresies of which they accuse their peers, if not more so.

It is amazing to me , that people who claim to love Jesus, reject the very words He said.
"IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15)


Jesus said.....'go and sin no more', (John 5:14 & 8:11)
And again, those who profess to know and love Jesus say, NO !

But then, I do understand what Romans 8:7 means..... 8:7 "Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be". [/quote:72946]

You haven't understood a thing we've said, Jay T. It's Christ's forgiveness that makes us holy, not our own works! According to you, Paul didn't love Christ because God left a thorn in his flesh! Jesus takes away sins, Jay T., not us! I repeat; Jesus takes away sins, not us. I'd say it one more time, but if you cannot believe it the first 2 times, then there is no use repeating it again. And since you don't understand that, then further debate with you is pointless.

 

[Heidi]

It's probably a waste of time to say this because so many people do not understand it but, the law exists to convict us of sin, period. It shows us right from wrong. All those who are now under Christ, instead of trying to obey the law, all we do now is confess the sins we see that we have broken in the law, and God replaces them with love & forgiveness until one day, all we have left in us are love & forgiveness instead of sin. We cannot make ourselves holy & pure, only God's forgiveness which replaces our sin. And that is how we sin no more; not through our own effort but only by admitting the truth and asking for forgiveness. That is why Jesus said that the truth will set us free. Once we receive love & forgiveness for each sin we confess, we then operate out of love & forgiveness. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." One more time; "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." End of story.

 

[Servant_2000]

[quote="servant_2000":b6899]You know, it occurred to me that those who accuse others of a serious heresy, such as the SDAs condemning Christianity as a whole for worshipping the "day of the Sun," are often just as guilty of the same heresies of which they accuse their peers, if not more so.

It is amazing to me , that people who claim to love Jesus, reject the very words He said.
"IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15)


Jesus said.....'go and sin no more', (John 5:14 & 8:11)
And again, those who profess to know and love Jesus say, NO !

But then, I do understand what Romans 8:7 means..... 8:7 "Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be". [/quote:b6899]

I am letting Scripture interpret itself simple enough?

You are the one ADDING to Scripture saying "commandments" means 10 Commandments. Nowhere does it say that!!!

John DOES define the commandments he's talking about!!

I alread showed you this and you seem to be avoiding it and avoiding quoting this text:

"And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment." (1 John 3:22-23 KJV.)

I am taking the Bible for what it says and how IT ITSELF defines commandments!

I am not adding the word "TEN" before "commandments" as you keep doing. We have no authority to ADD to God's word, but should let it define it's own terms. "Every word of God is pure: He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:5-6)

When Jesus said "If you love me, keep MY commandments" that is exactly what He MEANT! HIS commandments, not the commandments in the Law, which all the Jews were keeping WITHOUT loving HIM!

AND Jesus DID say He was giving us a NEW commandment: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." (John 13:34 NASB.)

We are to obey the Holy Spirit--we are led by the Spirit and we are to walk in the Spirit. We are told to love one another AS JESUS HAS LOVED US! Also, we are given principles in the New Covenant to live by including how to love one another and God--these include not murdering, not stealing, being baptized, partaking of the Lord's supper, not lying to one another, not sinning by anger, bearing one another's burdens, not getting drunk, serving our masters (or bosses) as to Christ, wives are to obey husbands, we are supposed to lay aside bitterness, there are rules for churches and church leaders, requirements for bishops and deacons etc., and there are MANY OTHER THINGS. Read the New Covenant for yourself and see. But notice that Sabbath is not included anywhere in the New Covenant.

Jesus said on those 2 commands hang ALL the LAW and PROPHETS NOT just the 10 Cs!!! If you're gonna say that means we have to keep the 10, then you also have to keep the REST of the LAW.


Jay T, you have quoted the statement about "keeping the commandments" several times, but have yet to prove that the commandments referred to is the 10 commandments.

1 John says if anyone says he is without sin, he makes God a liar. You can try to "keep the commandments" best you can, yet if you say you are without sin, you are calling God a liar. It has been posted elsewhere, but I'll repeat it again, Jesus' commandments were to love God and to love others. He never one time told people to keep holy days, yet He participated in many jewish festivals, including hanukkah. That doesn't make them mandated. I hear huge presumptions about the words "law" and "commandments". I would challenge you to study the "law of Christ", which is contrasted to the law from Sinai. Scripture can speak for itself without the SDA interpretations to re-clarify.

But really, I doubt there is a single word any of us could say that would help you understand "our" view. No matter how you protest, you are saying we are saved by keeping the law. The snippits of scripture you pull from context all point to the thoughts that if "we" don't keep the 10 commandments we are not real Christians. That simply is not true and scripture as a whole doesn't support it. You cannot take just the phrases from scripture that you have with the limited interpretation that you have. Jesus said if we confess Him before men, He will confess us before His Father. Not "if you keep my commandments". We are told over and over to believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved....there is no condition upon that salvation. You have referred to 1 John. 1 John is a great book on love, especially when the whole thing is read together. But the book clearly defines what the commandments are that it is referring to when it refers to Christ's commandments...1 John 3:23..."And THIS is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment." Verse 24 tell us plainly that if we keep His commandments we abide in Him and He in us...but that's not talking about the 10 Cs, it's talking about Jesus commandments to love one another and believe on Jesus. You can read the whole book, slice it and dice it, but if you can't legitimately make it a reference to the 10 commandments, it's just not in there. And it is an abuse of scripture to take verses out of context and try to make them say something they are not. 1 John says a number of things, but tying Christians to the 10 commandments is not one of them.

I can't think of anything else to say that would be considered respectful, so I will quit, but I will say your blanket generalizations about non-SDAs are not only insulting, they're false. And even if you do know a few people personally, well enough, you can honestly make those judgements about, to make it apply to the whole body (or even a majority of) is a mistake. Most of us are not here to justify murdering or stealing or any of the other things we are claimed to be doing. We are here to learn how to be more like Christ. It's a journey we share "together" in cyberspace because of a commonality in our lives. I have yet to be aware of anyone saying we can live any old way because we're not under the law. If I'm to love others, there are a whole lot of things I should NOT do, in the name of love. But God will convict me of those things individually. Paul talked about not using our freedom to be a stumbling block to others, and we need to work out those things with God in individual situations.

If the ministration of death brings you comfort and security, I guess you can cling to it. I'd rather cling to Jesus myself. He is all I need. It's amazing but I fully understand.

 

[Soma-Sight]

You are the one ADDING to Scripture saying "commandments" means 10 Commandments. Nowhere does it say that!!!

Uhhhhhh.......

What is the definition of commandments if not the Ten?

Why is it so hard to keep things simple?

 

[jeffnevins]

There were days in my life I worked on Sundays. I try to avoid it, though. 8-)

 

[Soma-Sight]

There were days in my life I worked on Sundays. I try to avoid it, though.

Dude, your better off not working on Saturdays, even Sunday worshippers dont ascribe the Fourth commandment of rest on their day of worship.....

 

[Servant_2000]

You are the one ADDING to Scripture saying "commandments" means 10 Commandments. Nowhere does it say that!!!

Uhhhhhh.......

What is the definition of commandments if not the Ten?

Why is it so hard to keep things simple?

Christ on Earth commandments! Which does not include sabbath keeping!

Christ keeps it pretty simple..

Worshipping One
Loving many

 

[Servant_2000]

There were days in my life I worked on Sundays. I try to avoid it, though.

Dude, your better off not working on Saturdays, even Sunday worshippers dont ascribe the Fourth commandment of rest on their day of worship.....

jeffnevins

Here is a genuine New Testiment commandment...

"Therefore let no one (like Soma-Sight) act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or A SABBATH DAY--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col. 2:16,17).

Who happens to be in violation of this New Testiment commandment...

The claim by him that Christians are worshiping the sun by meeting on Sunday, is just as ridiculous as us accusing the SDA's of worshiping Saturn, because they meet on Saturday!

 

[Aloha Joe]

The claim by him that Christians are worshiping the sun by meeting on Sunday, is just as ridiculous as us accusing the SDA's of worshiping Saturn, because they meet on Saturday!

Sabbath begins Friday evening, so don't forget Freyja, the Norse goddess of love after whom the day was named.

 

[SputnikBoy]

[quote="servant_2000":9410d]The claim by him that Christians are worshiping the sun by meeting on Sunday, is just as ridiculous as us accusing the SDA's of worshiping Saturn, because they meet on Saturday!

Sabbath begins Friday evening, so don't forget Freyja, the Norse goddess of love after whom the day was named.[/quote:9410d]

Sputnik: Not so. It might be Friday evening by our reckoning but, as you pointed out and then ignored, sundown Friday is the beginning of Saturday (Sabbath) biblically speaking. So, Friday or the Norse Goddess of love, Freyja, doesn't even figure in the equation. I'm just making this point for the sake of making it.

 

[Aloha Joe]

[quote="servant_2000":5c0f5]The claim by him that Christians are worshiping the sun by meeting on Sunday, is just as ridiculous as us accusing the SDA's of worshiping Saturn, because they meet on Saturday!

Sabbath begins Friday evening, so don't forget Freyja, the Norse goddess of love after whom the day was named.

Sputnik: Not so. It might be Friday evening by our reckoning but, as you pointed out and then ignored, sundown Friday is the beginning of Saturday (Sabbath) biblically speaking. So, Friday or the Norse Goddess of love, Freyja, doesn't even figure in the equation. I'm just making this point for the sake of making it.[/quote:5c0f5]

My point is that the Sabbath overlaps the day named after the Norse goddess of love. The Sabbath does, indeed, occupy a part of Freyja's day.

 

[Soma-Sight]

the funny thing is... many people today STILL woship the Sun on Sunday. They equate the Sun with Christ Himself and place the authority of the Spirit in the Sun. The Sun to them represents there spirit or soul in a dualistic fashion. The Sun represents this Spiritual side in that the Sun embodies Life, Eternity, the Source of all things or Creator in a way. The Sun to them even represent Resurrection and a New Birth. They equate the Sun to Christ basically.

I personally know of MANY star worshippers.

 

[Aloha Joe]

the funny thing is... many people today STILL woship the Sun on Sunday. They equate the Sun with Christ Himself and place the authority of the Spirit in the Sun. The Sun to them represents there spirit or soul in a dualistic fashion. The Sun represents this Spiritual side in that the Sun embodies Life, Eternity, the Source of all things or Creator in a way. The Sun to them even represent Resurrection and a New Birth. They equate the Sun to Christ basically.

I personally know of MANY star worshippers.

In my 17 years of being a Christian, having served in ministry having known literally hundreds of believers over the years, I have never, ever, ever met anyone who fits this description. The notion that Christians place any authority in the sun is asinine and an outright lie. Please direct one of these "MANY star worshipers" here, so that I can ask them about their views.

If you hope to retain any intellectual and character credibility, you'd best refrain from posting these gross and slanderous mischaracterizations of Christian belief.

 

[SputnikBoy]

[quote="Soma-Sight":987fe]

There were days in my life I worked on Sundays. I try to avoid it, though.

Dude, your better off not working on Saturdays, even Sunday worshippers dont ascribe the Fourth commandment of rest on their day of worship.....

jeffnevins

servant_2000: Here is a genuine New Testiment commandment...

Sputnik: So, what you are implying here is that Paul has the same status and authority as does God, huh? I've long suspected that the majority of mainstream Christians regard Paul as the New Testament God and are quite comfortable to have him (seemingly) contradict the Creator. If it's a debate involving the Word of God or that of Paul, Paul wins out every time!

servant_2000: "Therefore let no one (like Soma-Sight) act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or A SABBATH DAY--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col. 2:16,17).

"A" sabbath day ...not "THE" Sabbath day. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that the 7th-day Sabbath is EVER referred to in the scriptures a 'A sabbath day'. Nor is the weekly Sabbath EVER lumped in with the other ceremonial sabbaths. Am I correct?

It's also my understanding that the laws contained in the ordinances were those that were nailed to the cross with Jesus. Jesus became the New Covenant sacrifice replacing the previous animal sacrifice as atonement for sin. Jesus became the sacrificial Lamb. And it's THIS area of the law, NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, that Paul is discussing here.

Take yourselves back a couple of thousand years if you can and try to grasp the significance of what was going on. Very few had actually caught on at this point in time that the sacrificial system had gone, that the rituals and 'the shadows' that pointed to Christ had been fulfilled. The CONTENTS of the New Covenant didn't change, however, only the MEANS to attaining God's grace and salvation. The blood of bulls and rams were gone ...Jesus took their place! The moral Law is forever in place ...yes, in our hearts, but in place nevertheless.

Everyone since Adam was saved by grace, NEVER by works. Mainstream Christians really do believe that God's grace is a NT phenomenon. Even Jesus' 'new' commands about love for neighbor and God are a rehash from the Old Testament. Most Christians can't picture the scenes or identify with the circumstances surrounding the scriptures of Paul. And yet they need to in order to make sense of what is being said. Most Christians simply believe as they've been told. They sincerely believe a great deal of what is not true and are therefore sincerely wrong.

servant_2000: Who happens to be in violation of this New Testiment commandment...

Sputnik: As mentioned, Paul was a sinful human just as we are. He didn't have the authority to make commandments. Please be clear on that.

servant_2000: The claim by him that Christians are worshiping the sun by meeting on Sunday, is just as ridiculous as us accusing the SDA's of worshiping Saturn, because they meet on Saturday![/quote:987fe]

Sputnik: Obviously aimed at someone else. Actually, the Sun God (Tammuz) is considered an abomination in the scriptures (Ezekiel 8:14) whereas Saturn doesn't appear to be so much a threat in regard to worship. Worship of the sun has been predominant throughout history and modern-day references to this fact are still with us today in some churches. Food for thought, perhaps.

 

[Heidi]

Titus 2:9-11,

"But avoid foolosh controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

Christ fulfilled the law for us. It is over. It is done. We are forgiven. Once we recognize that, we operate out of his love for God & for our neighbor which fulfills the commandments. Arguing over the law & the commandments is useless and sinful because it shows a lack of faith that Jesus saves.

 

[stovebolts]

Titus 2:9-11,

"But avoid foolosh controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

Arguing over the law & the commandments is useless and sinful because it shows a lack of faith that Jesus saves.

Exactly :wink: