A Modern Heresy within Christianity: sola scriptura

[Orthodoxy]

Sola Scriptura

2 Timothy 3:15-17:
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

On the surface of it, the passage appears to be saying that the man of God needs nothing but the Bible to be perfect. But one should consider what Paul was referring to with the word ‘scripture.’ At the time 2 Timothy was written, many of the New Testament books were not yet in existence. Given the fact that Paul had just remarked that Timothy knew these scriptures from his youth, the scripture in view was clearly the Old Testament. Saint Paul is speaking of the Old Testament to Timothy because that is all Timothy had in his youth. Therefore, if this passage is going to be used to set limits on inspired authority of the bible then not only will tradition be excluded, but this passage itself and the entire New Testament will need to be deleted because that is the "scripture" Paul is talking about in this verse.

Did Paul then mean that Timothy needed nothing but the Old Testament, not even that very epistle containing that information and multiple instructions, in order to be perfect? I think not.

In fact, Paul had just encouraged Timothy to “continue ... in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them†(3.14). Presumably, Paul is referring to himself (see verse 10, “thou has fully known my doctrineâ€Â), and urging Timothy to remain a faithful follower of his (Paul’s) teachings. Plainly, then, though Paul held the scriptures in high regard, he considered additional instruction (his own) to be necessary as well.

Also if Saint Paul meant to exclude Tradition (passed down oral teachings) as not being profitable, then we should wonder why he uses non-biblical oral traditions in this very same chapter.

The name Jannes and Jambres are not found in the Old Testament any where, yet in 2 Timothy 3:8 Saint Paul talks about Jannes and Jambres opposing Moses. The Apostle Paul is drawing here upon the oral tradition that the names of the two most prominent Egyptian magicians in the Exodus account (chapters 7,8) were Jannes and Jambres. Heretical groups cannot base their teachings on Holy Tradition because their teachings originated and were formulated using the scripture outside the Holy Tradition of the Church. Every heretic uses the bible as a proof text for there heresy. The JW's or Arians use the same bible as a trinitarian to proof text the Holy Trinity right out of the Christian faith. It is shear madness to rely only on the scripture for the fulness of the Truth.


In 1 Corinthians 11.1-2, Paul wrote, “Be ye followers of me, even as I am also of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.†The Greek word translated ordinances in the Authorized Version is paradoseiV , the accusative plural form of paradosiV , meaning tradition.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Here we have a clear example of a church following a word-of-mouth tradition as the rule for faith and practice, not the Bible alone.

Paul expected both his written and unwritten traditions to be respected and followed. He was so concerned on this point that he and the other apostles (WE) commanded the Thessalonians to shun those who trampled his tradition. How can a Protestant today hope to fulfill Paul’s expectation? He cannot, unless he assumes, again, that all of these traditions were subsequently committed to writing and included in the New Testament. But there is no proof that this, in fact, occurred. Unless we can be sure that it did, sola scriptura is a foundation of sand. \

The fact is that we cannot know what the Bible is (which books and writings to include and which not to include ie the Gospel of Thomas) unless we accept the tradition that constructed it’s contents. The definition of “the Bible†is not given in the Bible. Holy Spirit filled men compiled and chose the books of the bible at the same time they developed the Nicene Creed. How can the Holy Spirit be working in men to compile the bible but the same Holy Spirit is corrupted by satan writing the Nicene statement of faith. If one reject the Christian statement of faith one must reject the bible also.

An individual can be convinced that a document is Scripture if by: “our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.â€Â

This statement indicates that the divine authority of scripture is attested in a subjective manner. If one locked 100 people in separate rooms with all the known written words of man in Christianity, and told them to put a bible together you would get 100 different bibles. But if all the bibles were burned today, the Church, would write a new one.

Is everything you believe and do based on the Scriptures? Protestants of all denominations carry baggage with them to the reading of Scripture. They meet the word of God with certain presuppositions which they have learned from their denominations, professions, education, childhood experiences, family life, etc. No one is free from these notions - no one is completely objective when reading the bible.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Here plainly Paul is stating the oral Tradition of the Church (BY WORD) are inseparable from the written word and in reality are above the written word for the NT scripture are all derived from oral teachings. The Apostle makes it abundantly clear that there were holy traditions of doctrine and practice not communicated by writings to which Christians are obligated and commanded to hold fast.


By the time the Church settled the canon of the Holy Scripture, the Church was already, in its faith and worship, essentially indistinguishable from the Church of later periods and even the Church seen today. We know that the Church was a functioning community worshipping God and preaching the gospel for many years (30 or so) before the NT scriputre were produced. The earliest of Paul’s letters were written in about 50 AD and most were written to various churches he founded. Paul taught these Churches the doctrines and tradition THEN wrote the epistles to back up what he taught orally in traditions given to him. The early church never observed sola scriptura because they did not have the NT to observe that with. This is a historical certainty. The Church was in place and functioning as one common unity or one Eucharistic Community BEFORE the Holy Scripture as we know it were in place. How did the Church survive for decades without the written scripture? BY TRADITION. If we mistrust the Church’s faithfulness in preserving apostolic worship and Holy Tradition, then we must mistrust her fidelity in preserving Holy Scripture, simple as that.

John 21:25, And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

How can a book that is incomplete be the final and infallible authority over a Christians life?

Not everything about Jesus Christ and His life are written in the Bible according to John. How can the bible be the final authority when it does not contain all the "truth" but only parts of the "truth"? It would seem apparent the heterodox idol (the bible) is not the "fulness of Him" nor the "pillar and ground of truth" thus cannot be "the final authority".

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Jesus sent men just as His Father sent Him. Jesus never sent a book to preach the gospel of His Kingdom. Jesus gave men, The Church, all authority of His Father even the forgiveness of sins. One cannot pray to the ceiling to be forgiven of sins, one must repent to the Church to have sins forgiven by the authority and power of Jesus Christ. Personal repentance to a personalized god is a demonic deception. The CHURCH is the “pillar and ground of truthâ€Â. The Church is the container of truth. The NT authors were addressing a thriving Church whose doctrine and ritual worship had already been set and established by the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.

Luke 1:1-4, Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they DELIEVERED them unto us which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

The whole gospel of Luke and the book of Acts were written by the Tradition taught to Luke by the Apostles. Luke taught Theophilus by word or oral tradition handed down to him by the Apostles then wrote the book of Luke to back up what he had taught Theophilus. Thus the whole book of Luke was written in the oral tradition taught to Luke. If one rejects the oral tradition of the Church then one must reject the whole gospel of Luke and the book of Acts.

The Church never taught the bible was the final authority nor infallible like a pope.

Orthodoxy

 

[guibox]

You are assuming that this 'tradition' spoken of is that which cannot be found in the word.

If Paul's and the apostles' writings were not written down for 30 years, we can assume that the 'tradition' was simply the good news that had not yet been recorded and then was for all to have forever.

Obviously, Paul was writing for the first time to 'keep the traditions'. If we take that one book we see that we don't really know what those traditions may be. However when we see ALL the books finally written and compiled it is safe to assume that this 'oral tradition' was simply that which hadn't been written down yet.

It seems ridiculous to speak of 30 years of 'tradition' but when writings are finally done, those traditions are omitted and simply exist outside the written word.

All religions that exist have written down their traditions and beliefs for those to follow from the Upanishads to the Islamic traditions of Mohammad. And yet we are to assume that all the Catholic practices that have no basis in scripture, and weren't written down were apostlic tradition no one decided to write down? I guess pagan gods and human philosophies care more about their followers following the teachings more than the one true God of Christianity, the biggest faith in the world.

You make a mockery of the word of God, Orthodoxy

 

[bibleberean]

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Catholics and Orthodox get a lot of mileage out of that verse.

The traditions are exactly that oral traditions received from the apostles and apostle approved prophets during the time the scriptures were being written.

Now that we have the scriptures we cannot be deceived by the false apostles and prophets of the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

We know from the scriptures that paintings and statues are not to be prayed through or to.

We know from the scriptures that the Popes are antichrist usurpers.

Thank God for the scriptures. May the eyes of the deceived be opened.

1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Papal Bulls and Orthodox traditions can be rejected out of hand if they do not line up with the sacred texts...

 

[stray bullet]

Now that we have the scriptures we cannot be deceived by the false apostles and prophets of the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

What scriptures and how do you know which are infallible and which are false?
Tell me, how do you know the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) is true, but the Apocalypse of Peter is false, even though both were read from in the early Church/

We know from the scriptures that paintings and statues are not to be prayed through or to.

There is nothing wrong with praying to God while focusing on an image.

We know from the scriptures that the Popes are antichrist usurpers.

There's nothing in the scripture. We know from scripture that Peter was the first Pope and head of the apostles.
Who has the keys to Heaven now? Tell me. Jesus gave the keys to Peter, so where are they know?

Thank God for the scriptures. May the eyes of the deceived be opened.

You are still a fallible man and all your interpretions will be open to fallibility, so what good are they? How do you know which books to believe and which not to?

Papal Bulls and Orthodox traditions can be rejected out of hand if they do not line up with the sacred texts...

Well, it is a good thing that the decrees of the Pope, nor the Traditions of the Catholics and Orthodox have ever contradicted scripture then, huh?

 

[bibleberean]

I know this is idolatry from the scriptures.

These men are on their knees praying to the false Catholic version of Mary.

Idols do not prophecy

Isaiah 48:5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

The false Mary of Catholicism gives false prophecies and extra biblical revelations to the easily deceived.

Leviticus 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.


What God thinks of those who pray to or through idols...

Psalms 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Psalms 115:5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

Psalms 115:6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

Psalms 115:7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

Psalms 115:8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

I trust the bible not Romes pagan doctrines...

 

[Orthodoxy]

You are assuming that this 'tradition' spoken of is that which cannot be found in the word.

I am not assuming anything. You are assumming I an assuming. which is an underhanded insult. Jesus taught for 40 days after the resurrection in which we have NO RECORD what so ever of what was taught. The aposltes addressed issues that were problems not given life styles of the Church. The writings of the bible do not address every issue that was known by the Church. Example: We dont write down every aspect of Christmas traditions or 4th of July Traditions, everyone knows already that fireworks and BBQs are part of American Tradition. We are smart enough to understand the traditions without written instruction on how to perform them. Why must the protestant reformation have everything writing in black and white before they believe it? Where is the "alter call" tradition of the reformation written in the bible? I could name other traditions of the protestant faith that are not in the bible yet they practice them. Where is pledging alligence to a flag in the bible yet every protestant in America will tell you this is a Christian nation based on the bible. Really.

[quote:9852d]If Paul's and the apostles' writings were not written down for 30 years, we can assume that the 'tradition' was simply the good news that had not yet been recorded and then was for all to have forever.

Like I just stated not all oral traditions were written because everyone just understood they were part of the Christian faith. Christians can think for them selves without having to have everything written down. Americans have many unwriten traditions yet the Church can have none? Hypocrasy? You bet. It's a "family tradition".

Obviously, Paul was writing for the first time to 'keep the traditions'. If we take that one book we see that we don't really know what those traditions may be. However when we see ALL the books finally written and compiled it is safe to assume that this 'oral tradition' was simply that which hadn't been written down yet.

You may not know what the traditions of Jesus Christ are but Christians do. Jesus taught the traditions of His Father ie Prayer, Fasting, Alms giving, Eucharistic Worship, Baptism, Repentance, incense, candles, oil, etc etc etc. It would appear the protestant reformation ignores the traditons of the Father for "american traditons". The family of God knows what they live by and how they live the Christian life. Traditions are a "lifestyle". Is everything you do in the "american way" written down? Are all your "family traditions written down? I bet the answer is no yet this is what is demanded of the Christian faith. Hypocrasy? You bet.

It seems ridiculous to speak of 30 years of 'tradition' but when writings are finally done, those traditions are omitted and simply exist outside the written word.

Many traditions as I have stated did not need to be written because a true Christian just does them and doesnt need written instructions to follow them as Paul followed them.

All religions that exist have written down their traditions and beliefs for those to follow from the Upanishads to the Islamic traditions of Mohammad.

Ahh since every other religion does it then the Christian faith is required also to follow them in like manner, interesting. That is like saying Hey Europe pays $6 for gas why shouldnt we? Well because we are Americans and not europeans.

And yet we are to assume that all the Catholic practices that have no basis in scripture, and weren't written down were apostlic tradition no one decided to write down?

See the abovce explaination.

I guess pagan gods and human philosophies care more about their followers following the teachings more than the one true God of Christianity, the biggest faith in the world.

Who ya calling a pagan? This is an insult that will be reported to the mods. If I call you a pagan I will get a nasty gram from the mods, yet you can underhandedly imply all catholics are pagans.

You make a mockery of the word of God, Orthodoxy

[/quote:9852d]

Keep your personal opines of me to your self.

Orthodoxy

 

[thessalonian]

Ah, here is BB on another thread going way off topic, posting his Gospel of anti-catholcism. Where's your "reason for the hope that is within you"? It seems that hope for you is that Catholicism is wrong since all you post is Catholic bashing.

 

[thessalonian]

You are assuming that this 'tradition' spoken of is that which cannot be found in the word.

If Paul's and the apostles' writings were not written down for 30 years, we can assume that the 'tradition' was simply the good news that had not yet been recorded and then was for all to have forever.

Obviously, Paul was writing for the first time to 'keep the traditions'. If we take that one book we see that we don't really know what those traditions may be. However when we see ALL the books finally written and compiled it is safe to assume that this 'oral tradition' was simply that which hadn't been written down yet.

It seems ridiculous to speak of 30 years of 'tradition' but when writings are finally done, those traditions are omitted and simply exist outside the written word.

All religions that exist have written down their traditions and beliefs for those to follow from the Upanishads to the Islamic traditions of Mohammad. And yet we are to assume that all the Catholic practices that have no basis in scripture, and weren't written down were apostlic tradition no one decided to write down? I guess pagan gods and human philosophies care more about their followers following the teachings more than the one true God of Christianity, the biggest faith in the world.

You make a mockery of the word of God, Orthodoxy

There is a problem with your theory. Well two problems. If Paul is teaching that there are some oral unwritten traditions that must be followed, then he cannot teach sola scriptura, nor can anyone else, unless somewhere in scripture it says "when this stuff all gets written down then rip 2 Thes 2:15 out of your Bible's. It's then no longer valid". I don't see any indication that the Apostles at point x say that SS kicks in. The other problem of course is that you are saying that 2 Thess 2:15 is no longer true. Further you have arbitrarily said that all oral tradition that the apostles preached would be written down at some point. Yet the scriptures do not say this. They were not even told to write anything down, though the spirit prompted them to.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I concur fully: What does Robert's oft-used post, #6 of a collection of 13, have to do with the issue of sola scriptura?

Could someone please moderate this discussion and keep it on track?

TIA

 

[bibleberean]

The scriptures clearly demonstrate that God does not want us praying to anyone but Him. Yet, the Roman and Orthodox churches are constantly praying to paintings and statues of Mary and begging her for protection.

"The Christian God - (The God of the Bible) is opposed to Idols regardless of their intended use, because He understands them as Competition with Him and His claim to be the one and True God, Lord Creator of the Universe. "

Quote from the following site...

http://www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/idolatry.htm

We know this from the scriptures. The Catholic church claims that interpretation of scriptures belongs to them alone and that Christians cannot understand the meaning without them.

Vatican II

"But the task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone." (Vol. 1, p. 755)

"But by divine institution it is the exclusive task of these pastors alone, the successors of Peter and the other Apostles, to teach the faithful authentically, that is with the authority of Christ ...." (Vol. 2, p. 430)

Vatican Council II printed by Costello Publishing Co., Northport, New York. Austin Flannery, O. P., is the general editor and each volume contains the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur. The editions are: 1984 (Vol. 1) and 1982 (Vol. 2).

The bible states that individuals are accountable for understanding and obeying the scriptures.

Jesus rebuked His followers for not understanding the scriptures.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

According to God's word a young man not a rabbi or a priest can cleanse his way by taking heed of the scriptures.

Psalms 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

The man of God can be perfect by the scriptures.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

A person grounded in God's word will not be deceived by Catholic doctrines that are not biblical.

 

[bibleberean]

Rome teaches the unbiblical doctrine that Mary was sinless.

How do we know this doctrine is false?

The scriptures!

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This isn't rocket science. The bible does not name Mary as an exception to this.

Jesus who was God manifest in the flesh is the only exception.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The Catholic church must hold it's man made traditions over the word of God.

Vatican II

"Hence, both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal feelings of devotion and reverence." (Vol. 1, page 755)

In reality tradition is held much higher than scripture by Rome.

The Assumption of Mary is not mentioned in the bible.

Mary being sinless is refuted by scripture.

Mary being a perpetual virgin is refuted by scripture.

Praying the rosary and praying to or through statues is refuted by scripture.

 

[Orthodoxy]

I concur fully: What does Robert's oft-used post, #6 of a collection of 13, have to do with the issue of sola scriptura?

Could someone please moderate this discussion and keep it on track?

TIA

I concur also. Three witnesses.

Report this disruption. It would be wise of the moderators to take heed of their own rules of engagement.

I am #1 harrassed in that Robert continues to broad brush paint the Orthodox Church with his hate toward Mary and the Roman Catholics.

I am #2 insulted that he continues to imply all catholics are pagans and decievers.

I am #3 offended and insulted by Robert with his accusations that the pope is "anti Christ".

This breaks rules:

Rule 2 - No Flaming:
You will not post any messages that harass, insult, BELITTLE, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.

Rule 6 - No Trolling:
You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site). You won't be labeled as a troll if your post has substance.

Hypocrasy? Oh yea.

Your Unworthy Servant

Kyril

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Again, Robert, you are not addressing the concept of sola scriptura, but are engaging in your usual dog-and-pony show so as to take a swipe at Catholics.

You are not staying on topic, and you're in the wrong- plain and simple.




Secondly, and as a PS: The so-called exOrthodox site that you cited is as genuine as the ex-nun you quote and the altered picture you post. The site owner claims to be Orthodox*** but has no credentials and names none and no one. The whole site is sham.

Have you no integrity at all?

***edit:
I stand corrected: I noticed something that I hadn't before: The XOFC site does NOT claim to actually be ex-Orthodox. Rather,

Originally, we were formed to respond to the claims of the Eastern Orthodox Church . That is still our main focus.

So the ex_Orthodox site isn't really ex-Orthodox people at all, but a group seeking to counter Orthodox claims and make proselytes of Orthodox Christians.

Now that is what I would call deceptive.

 

[bibleberean]

It is natural for the Catholics and Orthodox churches to place their traditions above the bible and bible alone.

It exposes their many false doctrines...

Sola scriptura! :D

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

 

[Orthodoxy]

"bibleberean"]Rome teaches the unbiblical doctrine that Mary was sinless.

How do we know this doctrine is false?

The scriptures!

One scripture where Mary commited one sin please other than "Adam's" sin.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Is Jesus included in this ALL since He sinned by not honoring Mary, His mother. Honor thy Mother Commandment #5

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Yes. That is the sin of all of us, including Jesus if all means all. Now that we know Mary was a sinner in need of a savior, why do you condemn her after she "believes" and is "saved"?

Do you think it is possible for a human not to commit any act of sin? If not show me one Scripture where Mary commited any act what so ever of sin.

This isn't rocket science. The bible does not name Mary as an exception to this.

What about Elijah who stood with Jesus on Mt Tabor and was caught up without death in a chariot of fire? What about Zacharius and Elizabeth who bore John the Baptist in Luke 1:6 who were righteous before God, walking in ALL the commandments and ordinaces (traditions), BLAMELESS.

Jesus who was God manifest in the flesh is the only exception.

So Jesus was not a man? b] for that all have sinned[/b] you say. Either Jesus was not a man or All does not mean All. Which is it?

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The Catholic church must hold it's man made traditions over the word of God.

So Jesus honored His Mother correct? Stop the accusations or I will again need to report a moderator to the admin. It is inflaming and insulting to me that you keep claiming the orthodox catholics hold "mans traditions" over the word of God. Please stop.

Vatican II

"Hence, both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal feelings of devotion and reverence." (Vol. 1, page 755

In reality tradition is held much higher than scripture by Rome.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

whether by word, or our epistle

what part of that verse is confusing you? Is it not int the bible?

The Assumption of Mary is not mentioned in the bible.

That is not Orthodox theology. Your braod brush is failing you.

Mary being sinless is refuted by scripture.

Again show me one sin Mary commited in act according to the bible. I can show you one that Jesus commited (dishonoring His mother according to the reformation theology) making Him another "sinner man"

Mary being a perpetual virgin is refuted by scripture.

Another Strawman that runs your anti catholic religion. Tell me why Jesus sinned against Jewish law giving Mary to John the beloved and not one of her many other children? Please explain Jesus's sin.

Praying the rosary and praying to or through statues is refuted by scripture.

The Orthodox dont have statues. Man is made in the image and likenss of God thus men are icons of God making their images not different that God's thus in everyman can be seen "Christ" and His image.

Here again you are taking the topic off subject a TOS violation. however I will allow the fathers of the Church to address this iconoclastic heresy:

Saint John of Damascus said, “It is obvious that when you contemplate God becoming man, then you may depict Him clothed in human form. When the invisible One becomes visible to flesh, you may then draw His likeness. When He who is bodiless and without form, immeasurable in the boundlessness of His own nature, existing in the form of God, empties Himself and takes the form of a servant in substance and in stature and is found in a body of flesh, then you may draw His image and show it to anyone willing to gaze upon it.â€Â

Saint John of Damascus said,†Depict His wonderful condescension, His birth from the Virgin, His baptism in the Jordan, His transfiguration on Tabor, His suffering which has freed us from passion, His death, His miracles which are signs of His divine nature, since through divine power He worked them in the flesh. Show His saving cross, the tomb, the resurrection and the ascension into the heavens. Use every kind of drawing, word, and color.

Please follow the rules of the forum, Robert.

Orthodoxy

 

[bibleberean]

Bowing down before Icons and paintings is idol worship...

The bible says so...

Sola Scriptura.

That is the problem with placing men and institutions above the word of God.

Thanks,

Robert

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

 

[bibleberean]

The scriptures state that all have sinned. That includes Mary.

I do not condemn the Mary of the bible. Only the false goddess of Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

When a person relies upon the bible and not the "traditions of men" then the confusion produced by apostate churches is made void...

From the following web site...

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION -- Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. ("Catechism" 490-492).

In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". Mary knew that she needed a savior.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was first introduced by a heretic (a man whose teachings were officially declared to be contrary to Church doctrine). For centuries this doctrine was unanimously rejected by popes, Fathers and theologians of the Catholic Church. (Note 13)

ALL-HOLY -- Mary, "the All-Holy," lived a perfectly sinless life. ("Catechism" 411, 493)

Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". Revelation 15:4 says, "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy". Romans 3:10 says, "There is none righteous, no, not one".

Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 1 Peter 2:22 says, "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth".

In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.

In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it. (Revelation 5:1-5)

Sola Scriptura

 

[Orthodoxy]

Bowing down before Icons and paintings is idol worship...

The bible says so...

Sola Scriptura.

That is the problem with placing men and institutions above the word of God.

Thanks,

Robert

I will answer again your OFF TOPIC remarks. The topic is sola scriptura not iconography and images.


Exodus 25:19-20 God commands in His divine eternal blueprint for the tabernacle images of cherubim to be placed above the mercy seat. God promises to meet and speak with us through this imagery in Exodus 25:22: And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

These could well be called old testament icons. These are images God commanded to be made by the children of Israel. It is not “true†imagery that is condemned in the Bible but false imagery.

Exodus 26:1 Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubim of cunning work shalt thou make them.

Images of angels woven into the curtains of the Holy of Holies commanded by God. Is God now commanding the children of Israel to break His ten commandments and your law of idol worship?

Here the context of “graven images†means idols that are worshiped as god, thus it appears there are 2 classifications of images, true images and false images. If man is made in the “IMAGE†of God then men are “ICONS†of God. If this statement is true then taking a picture of your mom is making a graven image and condemned by the bible! Here we are told not to make images of anything “in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth†if this statement is true then we cannot take pictures of our animals, place stuffed animals on our walls and beds, or mount trophy fish. All paintings of animals, fish, people, birds or any scenes of nature are condemned according to this verse of the bible.


Got any pictures on the wall of Jesus, Robert? ANy fish on the wall? Pictures of Mom, kids, wife?

Tell me Robert ever seen the Protestant Reformations book called " The Bible in Picture Stories"? Do you know how we all learned to read? First a child sees a picture then he can equate it to the words. Icons of Christ Baptism teach children and the illiterate about Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God, His life in pictures. Are these also condemned in your man made traditions? Most Christians until about the 6th century could not read thus "picture stories" or Icons were used to teach about Jesus and His life. My child was quite young but I bet she knows more about Christ's Resurrection than you because she has "seen it" in iconography of the Church. Fact is some of the bible was taken from icons of the Church! This attack is plain silly. Please stay on topic.

[quote:ba8a9]Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple

[/quote:ba8a9]

You will bow to a "holy temple"? Really Robert? Do you read this stuff before you post it? Is a "holy temple" an idol?

Please Robert, I have made no attacks, called you no names, insulted you in any way. Please just answer the questions placed before you in a respectable and reasoned manner. Please.

Do you or have you ever pledged alligence to the America flag, Robert?

Orthodoxy

 

[bibleberean]

God's glory was in the temple in Jerusalem. He does not place his glory in statues or paintings of Mary...

And,

I have been nothing but respectful.

If you are offended by scripture and attacks against false doctrine I cannot help that.

 

[guibox]

I am #1 harrassed in that Robert continues to broad brush paint the Orthodox Church with his hate toward Mary and the Roman Catholics.

I am #2 insulted that he continues to imply all catholics are pagans and decievers.

I am #3 offended and insulted by Robert with his accusations that the pope is "anti Christ".

This breaks rules:

Rule 2 - No Flaming:
You will not post any messages that harass, insult, BELITTLE, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.

Rule 6 - No Trolling:
You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site). You won't be labeled as a troll if your post has substance.

Hypocrasy? Oh yea.

Your Unworthy Servant

Kyril

Orthodoxy, your hypocrisy astounds me.

First, I don't see you trying one iota to tame your flaming tongue as you have so violently and rudely lashed out with on a continual basis. And yet when the mods or someone else try to correct you, well...it's not your fault!! And yet you expect the mods to come running to your aid when you PERCEIVE flaming to happen to you.

That's called being a bully. I see it all the time in my classrooms. We send those children to the principal's office.

Second, I in no way called you or Catholic's pagans so quit jumping to conclusions. I said that seeing as pagan religions write their beliefs down so their followers can follow it, their gods must have more sympathy for their followers then the Christian one if what you say is true.

Read the posts and quit practicing your hypocrisy.

Anybody, friend or foe, (and I don't consider myself a foe of yours) can see that you are way out of line most of the time and too caught up in your selfishness to admit your mistakes.

Instead you play the blame game with everyone else.

I guess when the mods decide to finally ban you, it will be everyone else's fault?

Please cool your jets and be mature. It will help everyone else and will endear you to those you've insulted on this forum instead of repelling them

in love

guibox