A Modern Heresy within Christianity: sola scriptura

[AVBunyan]

Bible study

Sola scriptura is not found in the bible.

You are a perfect illustration of one having no final authority.

Try taking that "old, archaic, etc" AV1611 and taking a concordance, yes a concordance, and cross-referencing the words and terms:

"Word, word of God, scripture, words of the Lord, law, and Word of God, scripture saith" and see what the book says about itself instead of what you think it means.

But you see, you and others can't do this excercise - do you know why? You have no final authoritiy so studies like this are closed to you and countless others. Regardless of what the book would say ou would find fault with it anyway - how sad. :

By the way - try sticking with English instead of that "old archaic Latin".

Praise the Lord for his mercy and longsuffering in this age of full-blown apostacy and unbelief!

 

[Orthodoxy]

Re: Can't see it

Get back with me on Matthew 18 and stop the tirade and threats.Orthodoxy

You must be kidding :o ?

If you are trying to rest you case based upon Matt. 18 then I will in no way engage in seeking to reason with you. Since you've thrown out your anchor there then forget it - God tells me to redeem the time. :-?

Besides - you completely missed the point of my post - in fact I feel pretty comfortable knowing that you are incapable of understanding that post. :roll:

By the way - we have different viewpoints of "being nice" - In this case based upon the importance of the subject matter I was being too nice. 8-)

So you wont answer the points I made? Is that because you cant or you wont?

Trying to insult my intellegance only shows your own ignorance but we all know that.

Here is scripture:

Matthew 18:17:
Jesus Christ said, "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

John 15:16:
Jesus Christ said talking to 12 MEN not the KJV of the bible, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

John 17:18:
Jesus Christ said talking to 12 MEN not the KJV of the bible, "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

John 20:21:
Jesus Christ said talking to 12 MEN not the KJV of the bible,"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Now please get off your high horse and explain to this uneduated, unlearned and stupid man filled with the unholy spirit what Jesus was taking about here.

I will patiently wait for your personal interpretation of these scripture. This will tell me if you really believe the bible is the "final authority" on anything or if your just playing games with God.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" John 10:27.
The term "sola Scriptura" or "the Bible alone" is a short phrase that represents the simple truth that there is only one special revelation from God that man possesses today, the written Scriptures or the Bible. Scripture states this concept repeatedly and emphatically. The very phrase "It is written" means exclusively transcribed, and not hearsay. The command to believe what is written means to believe only the pure word of God. What is at stake before the All Holy God is His incorruptible truth.

In the very last commandment in the Bible God resolutely tells us not to add to nor take away from His Word.


"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book"
-Revelation 22:18-19

His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself. (Psalm 119:160)


The Biblical message breathed out by God is revelation in written form. (2 Timothy 3:15-16). The Biblical claim is that what God has inspired was His written word (2 Peter 1:20-21). When the Lord Jesus Christ said, "the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), He was speaking of God's written word. The events, actions, commandments, and truths from God are given to us in propositional form, i.e. logical, written sentences. God's declaration in Scripture is that it and it alone, is this final authority in all matters of faith and morals.

Thus there is only one written source from God, and there is only one basis of truth for the Lord's people in the Church.

Affirmed by Jesus Christ

The Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, identified truth with the written Word. In His great high priestly prayer, He said, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." This was consistent with the declarations right through the Old Testament in which the Holy Spirit continually proclaims that the revelation from God is truth, as for example Psalm 119:142, "thy law is truth." There is no source other than Scripture alone to which such a statement applies. That source alone, the Holy Scripture, is the believer's standard of truth.

In the New Testament, it is the written word of God and that alone to which the Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles refer as the final authority. In the temptation, the Lord Jesus three times resisted Satan, saying, "It is written" as for example, in Matthew 4:4, "he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." In stating "It is written," the Lord used the exact same phrase that is used in the Holy Bible forty six times. The persistence of the repeated phrase underlines its importance. The Lord's total acceptance of the authority of the Old Testament is evident in His words found in Matthew 5:17-18:


"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled."
Other sources of authority condemned
People often attempt to give human traditions higher authority than God's Word. This was true of the Jews of Jesus' day. In refuting the errors of the Sadducees, the Scripture records the Lord saying, "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:29). Christ Jesus continually castigated and rebuked the Pharisees because they made their traditions on a par with the Word of God--corrupting the very basis of truth by equating their traditions with God's Word. So He declared to them in Mark 7:13 "You are making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such things do ye." Since Scripture alone is inspired, it alone is the ultimate authority and it alone is the final judge of Tradition.

The Word of the Lord says as a commandment in Proverbs 30:5-6:


"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."
God commands that we are not to add to His Word: this command shows emphatically that it is God's Word alone that is pure and uncontaminated.
Aligned with Proverbs, the Lord's strong, clear declaration in Isaiah 8:20 is: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." The truth is this: since God's written word alone is inspired, it and it alone is the sole rule of faith. It cannot be otherwise.

How is Scripture to be accurately interpreted?

The principle of "sola Scriptura" is basic to accurate interpretation of Scripture. Psalm 36:9 explains, "For with thee is the fountain of life; in thy light we see light." God's truth is seen in the light of God's truth. The Apostle Paul said the same thing, "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (I Corinthians 2:13). It is precisely in the light which God's truth sheds, that His truth is seen. (Cp. John 3:18-21, II Corinthians 4:3-7).

The Apostle Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, declares, "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. For prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:20-21). Logically then, Peter makes it very clear that in order to maintain the purity of Holy God's written word, the source of interpretation must be from the same pure source as the origin of the Scripture itself.

Scripture can only be understood correctly in the light of Scripture, since it alone is uncorrupted. It is only with the Holy Spirit's light that Scripture can be comprehended correctly. The Holy Spirit causes those who are the Lord's to understand Scripture (John 14:16-17, 26). Since the Spirit does this by Scripture, obviously, it is in accord with the principle that Scripture itself is the infallible rule of interpretation of its own truth "it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth" (I John 5:6).

If you want to be true to God in this important matter, follow His instruction, "Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you" (Proverbs 1:23). If you are yearning for truth in the attitude of Psalm 51:17 "with a broken and a contrite heart", the Lord God will not despise you. He will reveal to the basic foundation where the Lord Christ Jesus stood, as did the apostles.

Is Scripture alone adequate, or do we need more?

The total sufficiency of Scripture is declared by the Apostle Paul,


"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
-2 Timothy 3:16-17

For final truth and authority, all that we need is the Scripture.
What about the claim that sola Scriptura is not possible?

In an attempt to justify traditions as being of equal or higher authority than Scripture, an appeal is often made to the very last verse in John's gospel,


"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
-John 21:25

Of course, there were many deeds and sayings of the Lord not recorded in Scripture. Nonetheless, Scripture is the authoritative record that Holy God has given His people. We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile. The idea that somehow sayings and events from the Lord have been recorded in tradition is simply not true.
Another attempt to justify tradition, is the statement that the early church did not have the New Testament. The Apostle Peter speaks about the writings of the Apostle Paul when he states,


"...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
-2 Peter 3:15-16

Peter also declares that he was writing so that the believers could remember what he said. So he wrote, "Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth" (2 Peter 1:12).
From the earliest days of Christianity, a substantial part of the New Testament was available. Under the inspiration of the Lord, the Apostle Paul commands his letters to be read in other churches besides those to which they were sent. This clearly shows that the written word of God was being circulated even as the Apostles lived. The Lord's command to believe what is written has always been something that the believers could obey and did obey. In this matter we must have the humility commanded in the Scripture not to think above what is written. "...that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another" (1 Corinthians 4:6).

Truth, God's Word, and our love for Him

The Lord brings the topic of truth to bear on our love for Him. This again underscores its importance. "Jesus answered and said to him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings; and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent Me" (John 14:23-24). And then again "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (Matthew 24:35).

The Lord himself looked to the authority of the Scriptures alone, as did His apostles after Him. They confirmed the very message of the Old Testament. "The law of the LORD is perfect" (Psalm 19:7). The believer is to be true to the way of the Lord, holding alone to what is written: "Thy Word is truth."


Author: Richard M. Bennett, Berean Beacon Ministries
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/ ... bible.html

When Jesus said "it is written" He only had the OT Scripture, the Septugent.

Why did Jesus appoint and ordain men and not a book?

Matthew 18:17:
Jesus Christ said, "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

John 15:16:
Jesus Christ said talking to 12 MEN not the KJV of the bible, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

John 17:18:
Jesus Christ said talking to 12 MEN not the KJV of the bible, "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

John 20:21:
Jesus Christ said talking to 12 MEN not the KJV of the bible,"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Please explain these verses to this unlearned and stupid man that the Holy Spirit is unable to lead and guide.

Orthodoxy

BTW why have my complaints about the venom and vile hate spewed forth on this forum been ignored by you? I have been told that you wield the power to remit banning or retain banning on this forum. Is this true.

 

[Judy]

BTW why have my complaints about the venom and vile hate spewed forth on this forum been ignored by you? I have been told that you wield the power to remit banning or retain banning on this forum. Is this true.

Because I have found that most of your complaints are unfounded. And the venom and vile hate spewed forth I see is coming form you! It is true I do wield the power to ban or not... I am a little more long-suffering then some of the others here and that is why you my friend haven't been sent on your way.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Bible study

Sola scriptura is not found in the bible.

You are a perfect illustration of one having no final authority.

You are a fine example of someone with no reading comprehension. Here's what I wrote earlier:

The question is WHO is your final authority.
The answer is God.

My final answer is the Lord of all Creation, not your 8 pound condensed/edited version of the full textus Receptus

Try taking that "old, archaic, etc" AV1611 and taking a concordance, yes a concordance, and cross-referencing the words and terms:

Old? Listen, son, the KJV is a wee lad of 400 years. I read a much older language, the one from which KJV was translated. But I do not join hands with a potential Christian and begin to pray 'pater imon, o en tis ouranis agiastheto to onoma sou.'

Nor would I speak to them in a language inaccessible to the average American...and to think, Protestants got a lot of mileage complaining about Latin Mass. Now they want Elizabethan bible study

Word, word of God, scripture, words of the Lord, law, and Word of God, scripture saith" and see what the book says about itself instead of what you think it means.

But you see, you and others can't do this excercise - do you know why? You have no final authoritiy so studies like this are closed to you and countless others. Regardless of what the book would say ou would find fault with it anyway - how sad. :

This is ridiculous. My study has led me through and beyond the translation that you seem to use as a litmus test as to salvation. When I read 'word' in the New testament, I think to myself 'time to grab my Greek New Testament to see if we're speaking graphe, logos, or rhema- because each mean something quite importantly different. Same goes for hell. The KJV is misleading when it refers to Sheol as Hell. I know this because I want to know the truth, and I don't rely on some 16th century Anglicans in pointy hats to tell me what the truth is.

THEY are not my final authority

By the way - try sticking with English instead of that "old archaic Latin".

Praise the Lord for his mercy and longsuffering in this age of full-blown apostacy and unbelief!

Sorry if the Latin is over your head. What I mean, in the words of Chaucer, is

He made the peple pitously to synge For er the bisshop caughte hem with his hook, They weren in the erchedeknes book

Know what I mean? No? Look it up, it's spiritual.
:roll:

 

[thessalonian]

Re: Bible study

Sola scriptura is not found in the bible.

You are a perfect illustration of one having no final authority.

Try taking that "old, archaic, etc" AV1611 and taking a concordance, yes a concordance, and cross-referencing the words and terms:

"Word, word of God, scripture, words of the Lord, law, and Word of God, scripture saith" and see what the book says about itself instead of what you think it means.

But you see, you and others can't do this excercise - do you know why? You have no final authoritiy so studies like this are closed to you and countless others. Regardless of what the book would say ou would find fault with it anyway - how sad. :

By the way - try sticking with English instead of that "old archaic Latin".

Praise the Lord for his mercy and longsuffering in this age of full-blown apostacy and unbelief!

Where does scripture say that "WORD OF GOD = Scripture". Don't get me wrong. You use the two interchangably is part of your problem. A small part. Scripture is the Word of God, but that is not the same thing believe it or not. Tell me, if a Mormon believes that we should baptize the dead and believes sincerely that is what the Bible tells him to do because of some words in Corinthians that speak of baptizing the dead, does he have the word of God? Nope. He has something rattling around in his own head + scripture. He cannot tell the difference however and neither can you tell the difference between Ratting around inside AV's head + scripture. Your other prejudicial comments about us not being able to study scripture using concordances/commentaries etc. is duly noted. By the way are those infallible concordances? I didn't think so.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Sola scriptura is not found in the bible. The usual pasa graphe (all scripture) argument made from 2 Timothy only says that all scripture is useful. It says nothing about that which is NOT useful. Further, as has been noted, the pasa graphe that Paul was referring to only included the Old Covenant scriptures, for Paul said that Timothy had known them since childhood. besides, the gospel of John was about 35-40 years from being written at the time of Paul's writing.

Someone yesterday tried to defend this doctrine not found in the Bible by saying, oh well, at that time they operated by Scripture + Oral teaching which was not written down in scripture and then was later written down. This they used to justify the words of 2 Thes 2:15. This of course is rather hillarious since it says one of two things. Sola Scriptura could not have been written in the Bible unless it was the last words the Apostles John wrote as he handed out Bibles to every Christian in the world. Then probablematically speaking he would have to have stricken 2 Thes 2:15 from these Bibles as he was handing them out because it was no longer true. Of course we know John's last words were not SS though some will interprut them that way. Now if Paul told the Ephesians in Timothy that Sola Scriptura was the mode and then later told the Thessalonians, well for you guys its scripture + oral teaching, then of coure we have a contradiction. Either way you slice it all of this is complete nonsense. Now of course they will cry foul and say that I am downplaying the authority of scripture. I am doing nothing of the sort. That authority is only good however if one has the correct understanding as I started out this thread. Sola Scriptura is not a correct understanding.

Blessings

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Can't see it

So you wont answer the points I made? Is that because you cant or you wont?Orthodoxy

If you doubt as to whether I can answer or just won't answer your tired points then why not just search my name this forum over the last few years - all of your old wore-out questions have been dealt with by me and others on this forums and others already - they get old. Find something new. :-?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: Can't see it

So you wont answer the points I made? Is that because you cant or you wont?Orthodoxy

If you doubt as to whether I can answer or just won't answer your tired points then why not just search my name this forum over the last few years - all of your old wore-out questions have been dealt with by me and others on this forums and others already - they get old. Find something new. :-?

I think a simple 'no' would have sufficed.

 

[thessalonian]

Re: Can't see it

So you wont answer the points I made? Is that because you cant or you wont?Orthodoxy

If you doubt as to whether I can answer or just won't answer your tired points then why not just search my name this forum over the last few years - all of your old wore-out questions have been dealt with by me and others on this forums and others already - they get old. Find something new. :-?

All this proves is that you won't submit to the authority of scripture. :

 

[Orthodoxy]

Re: Can't see it

So you wont answer the points I made? Is that because you cant or you wont?Orthodoxy

If you doubt as to whether I can answer or just won't answer your tired points then why not just search my name this forum over the last few years - all of your old wore-out questions have been dealt with by me and others on this forums and others already - they get old. Find something new. :-?

I think a simple 'no' would have sufficed.

I agree which brings me to Jesus's point:

Simply let your `Yes' be `Yes,' and your `No,' `No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. Matthew 5:33-37 .

So it is.

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Can't see it

All this proves is that you won't submit to the authority of scripture. :

Incredible reasoning :o

Would you mind defining this "scripture" you keep referring to?

1. Where is this "scripture" you keep referring to?
2. Can you put your hands on it?
3. Are there any errors in this "scripture" you keep referring to?

 

[Orthodoxy]

Re: Can't see it

So you wont answer the points I made? Is that because you cant or you wont?Orthodoxy

If you doubt as to whether I can answer or just won't answer your tired points then why not just search my name this forum over the last few years - all of your old wore-out questions have been dealt with by me and others on this forums and others already - they get old. Find something new. :-?

All this proves is that you won't submit to the authority of scripture. :

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Or himself it appears.

Orthodoxy

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Can't see it

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Orthodoxy

I'd like to know or at least see this in writing - To whom are you referring here to that I should submit to?

 

[Orthodoxy]

BTW why have my complaints about the venom and vile hate spewed forth on this forum been ignored by you? I have been told that you wield the power to remit banning or retain banning on this forum. Is this true.

Because I have found that most of your complaints are unfounded. And the venom and vile hate spewed forth I see is coming form you! It is true I do wield the power to ban or not... I am a little more long-suffering then some of the others here and that is why you my friend haven't been sent on your way.

Duly noted. Now can you address my questions?

BTW a forum with 100+ readers is hardly furtile feilds in which to reap fruit for the Kingdom. If I can get one person to walk into an Orthodox Church to experiance the authentic and historical worship my work will be fruitful. 1% a narrow road.

I will tone my rhetoric down just so you cannot accuse me nor ban me. I will be the nicest Orthodox Christian you can imagine.

Thanks Judy.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Re: Can't see it

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Orthodoxy

I'd like to know or at least see this in writing - To whom are you referring here to that I should submit to?

That is not written in Hebrews 13:17? What do you mean "in writting"?

The Church. Obey and submit to those that rule over you in the Church. You have no one to obey or submit in authority?

I submit and obey the Bishop and the Priest in my Parish. Accountablity is the result of obediance and submission.

Orthodoxy

 

[PHIL121]

Sola Scriptura is not found in the bible, you wanna show me otherwise?

Go for it Gary... show me I'm wrong.

Well, I'm not Gary, but let me point to 2 Tim 3:16

"All Scripture is given by the inspiarion of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness."

While this doesn't support Sola Scriptura per se, it does define what the Bible is supposed to used for rather well.

 

[AVBunyan]

Scriptural authroity

Well, I'm not Gary, but let me point to 2 Tim 3:16

"All Scripture is given by the inspiarion of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness."

While this doesn't support Sola Scriptura per se, it does define what the Bible is supposed to used for rather well.

Thanks Phil121 - I agree - great verse.
But this verse is no sufficient for some of these folks. May I add to your post?

I think I may have posted this before but how about a summer rerun for their edification? Forgive me for the length - I trust you will read through.

Scriptural Authority for the AV1611

I’ve glanced at several forums and those who have issues with the King James Bible and those who believe it seem to think they have finally found the “unanswerable†question. Their favorite “stumper†is, “show me scriptural authority for the AV1611 being God’s perfect word.â€Â

Before we let the scriptures speak let’s look at this “heavy†request. You folks relish this phrase for you think that we King James Bible believers fall apart when you come up with your “magical†phrase. Let me ask you some a simple question: Where is your scriptural authority for light bulbs and bathrooms in your church building? You folks are amusing. I don’t know you got the idea we made this KJV issue an official doctrine of the faith or a fundamental of the faith.

We believe this – God inspired his word – we have it in a book – the book is called: The King James Bible, The Authorized Version, The Av1611, etc. We just happen to believe the God’s word and words are found a book called one of the above. If is translated under Edward VI then I guess it would be called the King Edward Bible of 1546! I don’t what you call it – we call it God’s word – it just happens to been translated in 1611 under King James I of England.

Now – you folks are looking for scriptural authority for what we hold in our hands as being God’s word. What you are saying is you want me to find the term “The King James Bible is perfect†or similar wording in any Bible. I haven’t found it and don’t expect to – don’t have to. I don’t need to find that phrase or any similar phrase. I guess it depends on what your final authority is. Where do you go to prove anything you want to prove some spiritual truth? You go to some version. We just happen to go to a King James Bible.

Flush your multiple, conflicting Greek and Hebrew authorities down the toilet for a moment and let’s look at what the book we believe says about itself - the internal evidence contained between the pages we can hold in our hands. In other words our final authority is what we hold in our hands – a King James Bible you can get from any Wal-Mart for $4.95. If I believe my final authority is a King James Bible then to be consistent I will use the Kin James Bible as my authority for this “scriptural authority†you folks are looking for. We already know what your final “authorities†are – “reliable†translations, Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, professors, and of course your own sinful self.

Do I expect you to believe this? Of course not – your standing amongst the “brethren†and “recognized experts†depends upon you staying in agreement with them and the world. I wouldn’t think you would have the courage to step out against the world on this issue. So, stay safe and secure in your stand with the world and the devil.

What I’m going to present is nothing new to you Bible-believing folks – just trying to lift up the book. If what I am fixing to present is not enough evidence of the Bible-rejecters then so what – could care less – I can’t show them anything anyway – it is God that must take the blinders off – II Cor. 4:3, I Cor. 2:14.

First of all what is the word of God? God is perfect and pure so there whatever he speaks (whether one word or many) is perfect and pure also. If God is all-seeing and all-powerful hen his word must be also. Question, do you believe God’s word is written down? If they are and they are God’s words then they are perfect and pure or…don’t call it the word of God. If you say your version has errors then call it a “book that contains some of the words of God†but…don’t call your version the “word of God.â€Â

According to Luke 3:4; II Cor. 2:17; 4:2, and Rom. 15:4 the word is written. According to II Tim. 3:15, 16 and any English dictionary scripture is words or words which is or are written down on paper. And according to II Tim. 16 if it is scripture it has to be inspired – if it is inspired then it is scripture. Timothy, in vs. 15, had the scriptures. According to vs. 16 they were inspired and they were not the originals.

When the Lord referred to the scriptures in Matt. 21:42 and others he was referring to what was written down and according to II Tim. 3:16 they were inspired.

So, according to the book I have in my hand then God’s word and words can be written down and they can be inspired without being the originals. If they are inspired then they are pure and perfect for God is pure and perfect.

It is interesting to note that the scriptures have many of the same attributes of the Godhead.

Now – God is pure – so his words must be and…according to Ps. 12:6; 119:140; Psa. 30:5 they are.
(Most of the newer versions change “pure†to “flawless†– not the same.)
God is powerful so His word must be and according to Heb. 4:12 it is.
(Most of the newer versions change “powerful†to “active†– not the same.)
God is all-seeing so His word must be and according to Rom. 9:17 it is.
God is eternal so his word must be also and it is according to Psa. 119:89.
God is discerning of the heart and according to Heb. 4:12 his word is also.
God gives comfort and according to II Cor. 1:3 and the scriptures do also – Rom. 15:4.
Jesus is called the Word of God according to Rev. 19:13 and the written word is also called the word of God (see above verses).
Jesus was in the beginning creating the world according to John 1:1 and Col. 1:16 and the word was there also – Heb. 11:3.
Jesus is holy according to Acts 4:27 and many others and his word is according to II Tim. 3:15.
Jesus’ name is magnified above all according to Phil. 2:9 and his word is magnified above even his own name according to Psa. 138:2.
(Many of the new versions change Psa. 138:2 so the word is just equal with his name – not the same thing.)
Jesus is alive according to many verses and so is his word according to Heb. 4:12.
Jesus foresaw future events for was The Prophet and his word foresaw future events according to Gal. 3:8.
Jesus will judge in future times and his word will also according to John 12:48.

Looks like to me that the King James Bible tells me that it is the inspired word of God. Yours may say similar but not as clearly and precisely as mine.

One more thought – I have mentioned this before but these same folks say that none of the major doctrines are changed in the modern versions. Really? How about justification? Look at Rom. 3:22 and Gal. 2:16 – not the two letter word “ofâ€Â. Here “the faith of Jesus Christ†justifies. Look at any new version including the NKJV and notice that the word “of†has been changed to “in†thus making “your†faith as the one that justifies – wrong, wicked, vile! Your faith can not justify only Christ’s faith justifies. The difference you say? The difference is heaven or a lake of fire.

Now, you unbelievers would say that your versions say similar – yes they do and they contain a lot of other junk also. But does that mean they are Bibles? Because you can find a diamond ring in a septic tank doesn’t make the septic tank a jewelry store. Because you can find the fundamentals of the faith in the newer versions doesn’t make them Bibles. You need to learn something about how the devil works – his method is one of counterfeit and deception. He is interested in being close to the real thing so as to confuse and draw away.

Unless you know the real thing then you will be deceived by the counterfeit – II Cor. 11; I Thess. 2:13!

In summary – The above will not convince the unbelievers – but for me I look at the book I have in my hands and it declares itself to be the inspired word of God.

May God bless!

 

[JM]

http://www.carm.org/dialogues/cath_interpret.htm

Dan: Hi. I am a Catholic and I know that I am in the true church because it was started by Jesus, expanded by the Apostles who gave the power of leadership to the bishops. My question is how do you know that your beliefs are right when other Protestants claim to do everything that you do but still come with different believes?

Matt: I base it on the Bible.

Dan: But Luther said the same thing and he believed in the real presence of Jesus in the bread and wine. Other Protestants do not.

Matt: That's nice.

Dan: That is my question. All Protestants say they base it on the Bible, but each church comes with something different.

Matt: Purgatory? Praying to Mary? Penance? Indulgences? Are these in the Bible? No.

Dan: Is it in the Bible is not the right question. Because each church claims that different things are in the Bible. Luther and Catholics claim Eucharist is in the Bible other churches do not. My question is how do you know who is right?

Matt: Is it in the Bible or not? That is the issue...

Dan: Yes, but different people interpret the Bible differently. Who is right?

Matt: The Bible is right. Stick to it.

Dan: Yes. But who has the right interpretation of it?

Matt: God. Read the Bible and stick to it.

Dan: To whom does God reveal his interpretation?

Matt: To Christians

Dan: That is my problem. You read it and you say that this fragment means this. I say that it does not mean this. Someone one else reads the same thing and he says that both of us are wrong because it means this.

Matt: Stick to the Bible. Listen..... Jesus said that His sheep hear HIS voice and follow HIM, right?

Dan: Yes

Matt: The Bible is God's (Jesus') word, right?

Dan: Yes

Matt: Christians will follow Jesus, right?

Dan: I cannot answer this one

Matt: Christians DON'T follow Jesus?

Dan: Yes they do

Matt: Jesus said Christians hear his voice and follow HIM, right? Where is Jesus' voice found? Is it in sacred tradition? Is it in my words? Where is Jesus' voice found?

Dan: In the Bible and in those who are filled with Holy Spirit.

Matt: The Holy Spirit bears witness of Jesus.

Dan: Yes

Matt: Jesus said His sheep follow HIM and listen to HIS voice... none other.

Dan: Yes

Matt: Whose voice have you been listening too?

Dan: God's.

Matt: Jesus points to Himself, right?

Dan: Yes.

Matt: Then you must study the Bible to find His voice, right? It IS His
word, right?

Dan: Yes, I read it almost everyday for 4 years.

Matt: Good... now, which dominates your interpretation? The Catholic Church over it or IT over the Catholic Church? Who's voice do you listen to?

Dan: None, I do not find any disagreement between the Bible and the church. And that is my problem. You find it. I do not. You read the Bible I read the Bible. Who is right?

Matt: None? Then you are not listening to Jesus are you?

Dan: According to you, but not to me and other people. How can we decide?

Matt: First, get on your knees. Pray to Jesus. Ask him to reveal the truth to you... Read HIS word. Subject yourself to IT. Because it is His voice. Look.... I am pointing you to HIM, not a church.... A church doesn't save. Jesus does.

Dan: Most days I pray over an hour. I read the Bible then I think about it. Many times I did not understand something. I kept on reading. Within few days or months I read something that cleared up the thing I did not understand.

Matt: That's good. Do you pray to Mary?

Dan: No I pray through her, but I do not want to get into any of these beliefs because we will not get anywhere.

Matt: The Bible says there is ONE mediator, not two. Praying THRU her is just a way of saying you pray TO her...but without the obvious difficulties involved.

Dan: Do you ask other people to pray for you?

Matt: They are here with me. They are not dead. Jesus is risen, the one mediator. Others are not my mediator. Neither is Mary. Your praying through Mary is praying TO her. Where is this found in the Bible?

Dan: Do you ask others to pray for you.

Matt: Yes. I do. Are they my mediator between God and me? No. Where does it say we can pray to or through Mary?

Dan: I ask my spiritual mother to pray for me. That is all: I say Mary pray for me. Not Mary grant me this or that.

Matt: Okay, we're done.....

Dan: You see I told you I do not want to go into that because this will happen. But you showed one thing. That you are not open minded. When you hear something you do not want to hear you just cover your ears.

Matt: What happened is that you deny God's word.... We cannot go further... we're done. You don't get it. I am trying to get you to trust God's word in totality and sufficiently. You do not want to do that. You want to hold on to what you have been taught by the RC church. I do not doubt my salvation or my assurance that Mary is not my mediator. Why? Because the Bible does not teach it. Simple. If you deviate from the Bible, you WILL end up in error. I tried to get you to see it. You do not want to.... You want to excuse the unbiblical practice you have. Therefore, how can I get you to see? I cannot. It is your choice. Therefore, we are done.

Dan: So ok. You are not close-minded but you believe that you are right and every one else is wrong. And that is my question. How come you are so sure that you are right?

Matt: I am not sure I am right about everything. I am only right in so far as I agree with the Bible.

Dan: That is what I meant. I and other Protestants who have different beliefs then you are also sure that they agree with the Bible. How do you know that we are wrong?

Matt: Read Rom. 14:1-12. I'll wait.

Dan: Ok [nothing for a couple minutes] and

Matt: Did you read it?

Dan: Yes

Matt: What is the point in it?

Dan: Not to judge others.

Matt: How about allow differencing opinions...? on non essentials? right?

Dan: Yes.

Matt: Good

Dan: And?

Matt: So, according to God, there is room for variation in non-essential beliefs, right? Therefore, it is not essential that we Protestants agree on every detail, correct? But, we ARE to agree on the essentials of the faith. Do you know what those essentials are?

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/3essentials.htm

Dan: Yes, but for example Eucharist is not something small. If it is false I am worshiping bread.

Matt: True. But you start with the basics, and then work up.

Dan: Also salvation

Matt: Yes... But, the Bible is the standard of truth isn't it?

Dan: Yes and we should disregard all teachings that do not agree with it.

Matt: If the Bible is the standard of truth, then you should make sure you
agree with it as much as possible, right? Correct.... as much as is possible.

Dan: But you see I do not see disagreement between it and the
teachings of the Catholic church. How we can decide that I am wrong and you are right? How can we prove it?

Matt: Easy. Where in the Bible does it state we are to use Mary as a mediator, someone to pray to, or even through?

Dan: Nowhere. But we Catholics see things pointing to it like we and you see things pointing to the Trinity.

Matt: If the teaching of prayer thru/to Mary is nowhere in the Bible, then is it safe to do it?

Dan: That is why I cannot prove to you that we can pray thru Mary because you see the same thing differently.

Matt: But... I see that the Bible teaches me to pray to God, that there is ONE mediator, etc. Therefore, I only have Jesus as my mediator.

Dan: So that is why I am trying to find out how we can find out who sees it as it is.

Matt: Then go to the Bible. Read it. Don't go beyond it. We have a tendency to make it into what it isn't. I'm guilty of that too sometimes, but... if I try and stick to it alone, I have far less chance of error.

Dan: But it is not that simple, I do not think I go beyond it. You think I do. That depends on how we view it.

Matt: Perhaps, but the Bible does not teach prayer to or through Mary, does it?

Dan: But to me the Bible teaches that there is something like tradition and that I should listen to it. The Bible points and tradition says that I can ask Mary for prayer. But you will disagree because you do not see the Bible saying that we should listen to apostolic tradition

Matt: Then your tradition supercedes the Bible? Where does it say in the voice of Jesus, that you are to pray to or through Mary?

Dan: No, as I said the Bible points to it like the Bible points to Trinity. But let’s get off this because we will get nowhere.

Matt: You see, the Bible does teach the Trinity.
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm. It does not teach that you can pray to or through Mary. This is simply an example of how you know if you are being biblical or not. Does the Bible teach the Trinity? Yes. Does the Bible teach prayer to or through Mary? No.

Dan: To you, because you see it differently. Who sees it like it is?

Matt: You admitted the Bible didn't teach it. So, you know that God has not approved it. hy do you want to hold on to this?

Dan: To me, Jesus says my body is real food and my blood is real drink. I do not see other way to take it, but you take it other way.

Matt: I'd be glad to talk to you another time on this... but I am trying to get you to see a principle dealing with what the Bible does and doesn't say. Why don't you think about it and let's talk again another time?

Dan: So we will never convince each other because I see a 4 and you see a 3.

Matt: Sorry, I want to listen to the voice of Jesus, not man's tradition.

Dan: Okay, but can you think about a way to find out is it a 3 or a 4. Thanks for the talk

Matt: You're welcome and thank you as well.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Can't see it

I submit and obey the Bishop and the Priest in my Parish. Accountablity is the result of obediance and submission.
Orthodoxy

So then - how do you know if your priest or bishop is right or not?