A Person is Justified by Works and not by Faith Alone

[FreeGrace]

Belief and unbelief are interchangeable with obedience and disobedience.

These words are not interchangeable. They are different. The point of James as well as other authors is that belief is supposed to lead to obedience. That is why we have all the commands to obey. If obedience were a part of belief, there would be no need for any command. It would just naturally follow. The commands to obey refute your view.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV JLB

Interesting how one mixes verses in order to try to support their view.

Heb 4:6 isn't about entering heaven, but about earning eternal rewards. This is proven because salvation is by grace, not by works. Yet the Israelites had to work to enter the land. They had to work hard to defeat their enemies. That cannot be a picture of salvation.

 

[john darling]

So you believe that people will go to hell for not feeding the hungry?

Perhaps a reasonable compromise is to suggest that people could go to hell for not feeding the hungry?

In v.31-32, Jesus separates the people, like a shepherd separates goats from sheep. iow, Jesus separates believers (saved people) from unbelievers (unsaved people).

There's nothing in the parable which suggests "believers" verses "non-believers" in the sense of theological belief. They are fairly clearly separated on the basis of their behavior.

what do you do with the religious liberals who deny the work of Christ,

How did feeding the poor come to be equated with denying the "work of Christ"?

yet push their erroneous view of the gospel as being feeding the poor

I looked up "erroneous"; it means "pertaining to or characterized by error". Did you really mean to say that helping the poor is an error according to the gospel of Jesus?

Many unbelievers do that, yet have not believed in Christ for eternal life. According to your view, they should go to heaven.

Jesus suggested there will be some big surprises when it comes to the judgment. You sound outraged at the thought that God might choose to save someone based on their sincere, humble, loving spirit despite the fact that they may not have conformed to your understanding of what it means to "believe".

If God is the only source of love, then an "unbeliever" who is showing love must be responding to God's spirit in some way, even if it's not the way we Christians feel it should be done. Remember "if they are not against us they must be for us"?(Mk 9:40) Jesus is the way, the truth and the life (Jn 14), but Jesus is more than just a name.

The sheep in the parable are surprised to be rewarded. They didn't even realize they were helping God.

We know the 'sheep' are believers because of v.37: "then the righteous…". Why are they called righteous? They have believed in Christ and have imputed righteousness.

We are seeing very different lessons in this parable. From what I can see, there's nothing in the story about "believers" or "confessing the name of Jesus" or any of that stuff. The focus of the parable is on what the sheep did and what the goats did not do. They are righteous because they behaved in a right way, not because they followed the correct religious formula.

A simplified version could be, "The people on the right helped others. They were rewarded. The people on the left did not help others. They were punished". What's the lesson in this story?

 

[JLB]

So you believe that people will go to hell for not feeding the hungry?

I believe what Jesus say here in Matthew 25.

... for I was hungry and you gave Me no food

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; Matthew 25:41-42

Rather than deny what Jesus said, why not ask Him to lead and guide you to do what He has prepared for you to do, from the foundation of the world.

Operating in the works of faith is exactly how we express the righteousness of God from within.

We are His hands and feet is this world, to do what He leads us to do.

If we never do that, then we are likened to a branch that never produces any fruit, as it is written -

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

and again -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

...he is cast out as a branch, they gather them and throw them into the fire.

My advice to you or anyone who reads what Jesus wrote, and has His Spirit within them...

Don't just explain away and deny what He has said, but seek Him, that you may be led by His Spirit and obey His Voice.

They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
Titus 1:16


Faith without works is dead. Without faith it is impossible to please God.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Perhaps a reasonable compromise is to suggest that people could go to hell for not feeding the hungry?

I believe Scripture is quite clear; one who receives eternal life will go to heaven. Those who haven't, won't. There is no "potentiality" here. It's one or the other. The only potential is whether one ever believes or not.

There's nothing in the parable which suggests "believers" verses "non-believers" in the sense of theological belief. They are fairly clearly separated on the basis of their behavior.

I believe there is, which i pointed out. In v.37 the sheep are called "the righteous". That can only mean imputed righteousness, because Paul made the point that the Jews pursued righteousness on the basis of works, and never received righteousness. Conversely, he pointed out that Gentiles, who didn't pursue righteousness received it by faith. Rom 9:30-32

How did feeding the poor come to be equated with denying the "work of Christ"?

I was referring to "liberal Christianity"; you know, the main line denominations. Actually, for them, the "work of Christ" was feeding the poor. That's their gospel. Not that one must believe in Christ for eternal life.

looked up "erroneous"; it means "pertaining to or characterized by error". Did you really mean to say that helping the poor is an error according to the gospel of Jesus?

For salvation, that would be an error.

[QOUTE]Jesus suggested there will be some big surprises when it comes to the judgment. You sound outraged at the thought that God might choose to save someone based on their sincere, humble, loving spirit despite the fact that they may not have conformed to your understanding of what it means to "believe".[/QUOTE]
What makes you think that I am "outraged" at anything? Seems to be quite a leap, imho. I simply state my beliefs, based on Scripture. I'm not outraged at anything. But I do understand what "belief" means in Scripture. I wonder, however, if you share that understanding.

If God is the only source of love, then an "unbeliever" who is showing love must be responding to God's spirit in some way, even if it's not the way we Christians feel it should be done. Remember "if they are not against us they must be for us"?(Mk 9:40) Jesus is the way, the truth and the life (Jn 14), but Jesus is more than just a name.

Huh? Jesus SAID that He was the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, and the ONLY life. And that NO ONE comes to the Father, EXCEPT through Him. I think that is perfectly clear. But it seems tht liberal denominations don't really accept that.

The sheep in the parable are surprised to be rewarded. They didn't even realize they were helping God.

OK.

We are seeing very different lessons in this parable. From what I can see, there's nothing in the story about "believers" or "confessing the name of Jesus" or any of that stuff. The focus of the parable is on what the sheep did and what the goats did not do. They are righteous because they behaved in a right way, not because they followed the correct religious formula.

I certainly disagree with your claim that anyone is "rightoues beause they behaved in a right way". That's not taught anywhere in Scripture. The truth is that God imputes or declares the believer to be righteous. Gen 15:6 is just one of those verses.

A simplified version could be, "The people on the right helped others. They were rewarded. The people on the left did not help others. They were punished". What's the lesson in this story?

It's far more than that. It's about the lake of fire. And we know from Rev 20:15 that those who don't have eternal life will be cast into it.

Here's the lesson: if one has eternal life, they will not be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[JLB]

These words are not interchangeable.

The scriptures themselves interchange the English word Disobedience and unbelief, as seen is the verse from the KJV and the NKJV.


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Trying to deny what the scripture says in black and white is futile.

But, if you choose to continue to do this very thing, I suppose that will be between you and God.


Bless you as you seek Him.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe what Jesus say here in Matthew 25.

... for I was hungry and you gave Me no food

And I believe everything Jesus said. Including Jn 5:24.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; Matthew 25:41-42

Rather than deny what Jesus said, why not ask Him to lead and guide you to do what He has prepared for you to do, from the foundation of the world.

First, I never denied what Jesus said. In fact, I explained what He meant already. If you have a problem with my view, please address it point by point and show me where my error is.

Operating in the works of faith is exactly how we express the righteousness of God from within.

We are His hands and feet is this world, to do what He leads us to do.

OK.

If we never do that, then we are likened to a branch that never produces any fruit, as it is written -

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

and again -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

...he is cast out as a branch, they gather them and throw them into the fire.

My advice to you or anyone who reads what Jesus wrote, and has His Spirit within them...

I too, have some advice. Understand when "fire" refers to the lake of fire, and when it doesn't.

Don't just explain away and deny what He has said, but seek Him, that you may be led by His Spirit and obey His Voice.

Again, I've never denied anything that Jesus said. And second, I didn't explain away. I explained. There is a difference.
[QUTOE]
Faith without works is dead. Without faith it is impossible to please God.JLB[/QUOTE]
Yep. I believe both verses. But we disagree on what they mean. And I don't recall that you've proven your view from Scripture.

Anyone can quote a verse or two and say what they think it means. The point is to support your explanation. I don't believe you have done that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Trying to deny what the scripture says in black and white is futile.
But, if you choose to continue to do this very thing, I suppose that will be between you and God.
Bless you as you seek Him.JLB

It does amuse me what people claim is "black and white" in Scripture. OSAS is black and white, yet you have rejected that doctrine. The claim that salvation can be lost is not even found in Scripture, yet to you, it is "black and white".

What is black and white to me is that salvation cannot be lost. I've proved verses that clearly indicate that, and you have yet to deal with them in any way.

 

[john darling]

The scriptures themselves interchange the English word Disobedience and unbelief, as seen is the verse from the KJV and the NKJV.


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Nice observation, JLB. I believe this word, "believe" can and should have a lot more meaning than what so much of religion today has made of it.

For example, people talk about confessing the name of Jesus or calling on the name of Jesus, but there must be something more to "the name of Jesus" than just the name itself. Even demons recognized Jesus as the most high son of God (Mk 5:7).

Jesus asked the question, "why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' but do not obey me"? (Lk 6:46) It sounds like he's making the same connection between belief and obedience here.

Something similar happens in Mt 7:21-23. People claim to have done many works in Jesus' name. They argue that they should be saved but Jesus calls them workers of iniquity. The ironic thing is that Jesus had just said, "only those who do the will of my father will be saved". So it wasn't works he was against, but rather, "works of iniquity" vs "the works of the father".

But the parable is also interesting in that Jesus knew a time would come when people would claim his name, but disregard his teachings.

 

[JLB]

Nice observation, JLB. I believe this word, "believe" can and should have a lot more meaning than what so much of religion today has made of it.

For example, people talk about confessing the name of Jesus or calling on the name of Jesus, but there must be something more to "the name of Jesus" than just the name itself. Even demons recognized Jesus as the most high son of God (Mk 5:7).

Jesus asked the question, "why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' but do not obey me"? (Lk 6:46) It sounds like he's making the same connection between belief and obedience here.

Something similar happens in Mt 7:21-23. People claim to have done many works in Jesus' name. They argue that they should be saved but Jesus calls them workers of iniquity. The ironic thing is that Jesus had just said, "only those who do the will of my father will be saved". So it wasn't works he was against, but rather, "works of iniquity" vs "the works of the father".

But the parable is also interesting in that Jesus knew a time would come when people would claim his name, but disregard his teachings.

This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. Titus 3:8

 

[john darling]

MT 13:44 the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

The man who bought the field didn't buy the treasure in the field, but he could not get the treasure without selling all and buying the field.

It's like that with good works. We can't buy our salvation with our own goodness, but without at least trying to be good, we won't get the salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

The man who bought the field didn't buy the treasure in the field, but he could not get the treasure without selling all and buying the field.

It's like that with good works. We can't buy our salvation with our own goodness, but without at least trying to be good, we won't get the salvation.

Where does the Bible teach that one has to "at least try to be good" in order to get salvation? The Bible is clear about how one gets salvation. It is by faith, apart from works. Both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2;8,9 say so.

 

[YosefHayim]

Clearly we are saved by faith, and James is saying they had no faith. For scripture with scripture: Philippians 1:11, Eph 2:8-10, Rom 8:13, phil 2:13, 1 Cor 15:58, and John 15 all show that we can't produce works unless we are saved, and that they are not even our works. It's the Lord's works. So how somone produce good works when they're not even saved, if they're the Lord's works? For the scriptures day "unless the LORD builds the house, the workers labour in vain." So our works being the Lord's, and our righteousness his, shows us that he not onky saves us, but keeps us save, and sanctifies. For "the outward man perishes, and the inward man is renewed day by day".

Thanksgiving and glory to the God Most High, who reconciled us by the blood of his only begotten sons; and has made us saints, kings, preists, and children.

 

[FreeGrace]

Clearly we are saved by faith, and James is saying they had no faith.

With all respect, James' point was about believers who didn't have works.

 

[YosefHayim]

With all respect, James' point was about believers who didn't have works.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18). James goes on to say in verse 24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." At first glance, it sure does seem like the Bible is requiring works for salvation; BUT, as you will see, nothing could be further from the TRUTH!

Carefully notice James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" This event took place in Genesis 22:8-10. Now notice Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." The event which took place in Genesis 15:6 was different from the event which took place in Genesis 22:8-10. We see in the New Testament that Paul spoke of the ROOT of Abraham's faith; BUT, James spoke of the FRUIT of Abraham's faith. We read in Romans 4:3, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." This occurred in Genesis 15:6, which is when Abraham was born again. Paul said in Romans 5:1, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Paul doesn't mention works. Romans 4:5 declares, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Yet, James declares in James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/faith_and_works.htm
​

From a reading of James, we see that we are saved by faith. Works don't save us. Works are a byproduct of faith.

Faith without works is dead, because it was never alive to begin with.

 

[FreeGrace]

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18). James goes on to say in verse 24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." At first glance, it sure does seem like the Bible is requiring works for salvation; BUT, as you will see, nothing could be further from the TRUTH!​

v.18 supports my statement. It is about works.
​

From a reading of James, we see that we are saved by faith. Works don't save us. Works are a byproduct of faith.

That wasn't his point at all. He was writing to those already saved. His point was to demonstrate our faith to others.

Faith without works is dead, because it was never alive to begin with.

Actually, in order for something to be declared "dead", demands life to have occurred. Only a living thing can be declared dead.

But that wasn't James' point either. He was using the Greek word for 'dead' figuratively; meaning useless.

 

[JLB]

t does amuse me what people claim is "black and white" in Scripture. OSAS is black and white, yet you have rejected that doctrine. The claim that salvation can be lost is not even found in Scripture, yet to you, it is "black and white".

There is not such scripture caled OSAS in the Bible.

It's a man-made doctrine with zero scripture.

However, in this day and age, it seems anyone can believe whatever they want and say it's in the bible.

When you can show a scripture that states once a person is saved they can never lose there salvation, then you may have grounds to substantiate a man made doctrine.

No such scripture as once saved always saved.

This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. Titus 3:8

What is black and white to me is that salvation cannot be lost

You are free to your opinion.


JLB

 

[YosefHayim]

v.18 supports my statement. It is about works.
​

That wasn't his point at all. He was writing to those already saved. His point was to demonstrate our faith to others.


Actually, in order for something to be declared "dead", demands life to have occurred. Only a living thing can be declared dead.

But that wasn't James' point either. He was using the Greek word for 'dead' figuratively; meaning useless.

I'll have to study this more. I thought he was poking thoughts and questions, because the answers are blantant: faith justifies it. Otherwise we have to get rid of either Paul or James. Jesus said there was one work: believe.

From the rest of the scriptures, we can conclude that if you hold to works salvation (for works don't keep us saved), then God didn't like you because he stopped writing your story. For he is the author of salvation. James is talking about works being a byproduct of faith, and not a means of salvation. (There's a verse in Hebrews that says that if we don't walk in holiness, then people won't see the Lord. Our acts can be responsible for giving others faith, as we walk in example).

You either have eternal security, or eternal insecurity.

Actually, in order for something to be declared "dead", demands life to have occurred. Only a living thing can be declared dead.

I was more so implying faith can not die. We are born into flesh, so thus we are born into spiritual death. We were dead to begin with. But Christ breathed life into us.

 

[FreeGrace]

There is not such scripture caled OSAS in the Bible.

OK. The better term is eternal security.

It's a man-made doctrine with zero scripture.

I disagree with your opinion.

However, in this day and age, it seems anyone can believe whatever they want and say it's in the bible.

Yes, I've seen a lot of that.

When you can show a scripture that states once a person is saved they can never lose there salvation, then you may have grounds to substantiate a man made doctrine.

No one can "substantiate a man made doctrine" of course. But I have repeatedly substantiated the Scriptural doctrine of eternal security. I invite you to my thread on 1 Thess 5:4-10 which is just one of many passages that clearly teach eternal security.

No such scripture as once saved always saved.

Again, I disagree with your opinion.

There are no verses that teach that salvation can be lost.

This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. Titus 3:8

Why do you think this vese supports your opinion? It does say that believers should be careful to maintain good works. But you know what's missing? There is no warning of loss of salvation in this or any other verse.

You are free to your opinion.JLB

We all are, of course.

But my views aren't based on mere opinion. They are based on clear Scripture, such as 1 Thess 5:4-10.

 

[FreeGrace]

James is talking about works being a byproduct of faith, and not a means of salvation.

I believe his point was that works should be a by product of faith. If works were automatically a by product of faith, then there would be no need for any of the commands to be "blameless and holy". Yet we find many such verses.

(There's a verse in Hebrews that says that if we don't walk in holiness, then people won't see the Lord. Our acts can be responsible for giving others faith, as we walk in example).

Exactly! If we don't demonstrate our faith to others, then others won't see the Lord in us. iow, when believers are demonstrating their faith, they are being Christlike, which is a command. When believers aren't demonstrating their faith, and are hypocrites, then others won't see the Lord in us.

You either have eternal security, or eternal insecurity.

I have eternal security. Those who reject that have a lot of insecurity.

[QUTOE]I was more so implying faith can not die. We are born into flesh, so thus we are born into spiritual death. We were dead to begin with. But Christ breathed life into us.[/QUOTE]
But James clearly spoke of dead faith. He was speaking figuratively, of course, and was making the point that believers who don't demonstrate their faith before others have a faith that is useless as far as others are concerned.

In fact, James have a very clear example in 2:15-16. The person who said "be filled and be warm" but didn't provide anything for the cold and hungry person had a faith that was totally useless to that cold and hungry person.

One of the by products of being born again is to minister to others. But if we don't do that (demonstrate our faith to others), our faith is useless to them. That was James' point, I believe.

 

[john darling]

Hi freegrace,

In fact, James have a very clear example in 2:15-16. The person who said "be filled and be warm" but didn't provide anything for the cold and hungry person had a faith that was totally useless to that cold and hungry person.

But earlier you said,

yet push their erroneous view of the gospel as being feeding the poor

In one case you see helping the poor as a good thing and in the other you see it as a bad thing?