A Person is Justified by Works and not by Faith Alone

[john darling]

I have eternal security. Those who reject that have a lot of insecurity.

As for your security, I think I really can't judge it, but as for my security, I believe I am saved but that I could choose to walk away from that and not be saved. I don't see that as insecurity, but rather an honest examination of my free choice. I'm an imperfect human. I experience greed, pride, laziness and arrogance to varying degrees. I believe God is willing to forgive me for these sins so long as I see the need to be forgiven.

It's not an issue of insecurity so much as humility. Jesus talked about repentance. If you do not repent you will die in your sins (Lk 13:3). I think just about any Christian would agree that repentance is an important part of salvation; God wants to see that we feel genuine remorse for our bad behavior. He wants to see that we're willing to change our bad behavior.

But when you believe there is nothing you can ever do to lose your salvation, repentance becomes unnecessary. These people may still give lip service to repentance, but the nature of the OSAS doctrines makes it unnecessary. So, rather than the fruits of this doctrine producing people who fall down on their knees, beating their chest in frustration and saying, "God forgive me, a sinner" we find people who may have done such a thing once to become saved, but thereafter see no real need for such an attitude.

I really can't see that God only wants to see that kind of attitude only once in a person's life. We sin everyday, often willfully. Yesterday's faith is not good enough for today and neither is yesterday's repentance.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi freegrace,

You said:
"In fact, James have a very clear example in 2:15-16. The person who said "be filled and be warm" but didn't provide anything for the cold and hungry person had a faith that was totally useless to that cold and hungry person."

Then you said:
"yet push their erroneous view of the gospel as being feeding the poor"

In one case you see helping the poor as a good thing and in the other you see it as a bad thing?

Of course helping and feeding the poor is a good thing. But that isn't the gospel.

This is the gospel:
Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. NASB

Believing in Jesus Christ for eternal life saves those who believe. Feeding the poor saves no one eternally. It does save a hungry person from death. Not the same as eternal salvation.

The Bible tells us to believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life (salvation), and then to feed to poor in order to demonstrate our faith to others, per James 2.

 

[john darling]

What about "and the second is like it, love your neighbor"?

I'm pretty sure that helping the poor is considered loving your neighbor. A person who helps the poor, don't they show their belief that loving their neighbor is the right thing to do? Maybe you've narrowed your definition of what it means to believe a little too much?

 

[FreeGrace]

As for your security, I think I really can't judge it, but as for my security, I believe I am saved but that I could choose to walk away from that and not be saved. I don't see that as insecurity, but rather an honest examination of my free choice.

I think it's an error to think that you have the choice to lose, give away, or forfeit your salvation. Salvation is not some kind of object that can be lost, given away, etc. Salvation includes many things that result in a complete change.

For example, the believer becomes a child of God (Jn 1:12). Does that go away if one walks away from the faith? Scripture doesn't say that.

The believer becomes regenerated (Titus 3:5). Does that go away? Scripture doesn't say so.

The believer is placed into union with Christ per Eph 1:13,14 and Eph 2. Does that change if one walks away from their faith? Scripture doesn't say that.

The believer becomes a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). Does that change? No.

I'm an imperfect human. I experience greed, pride, laziness and arrogance to varying degrees. I believe God is willing to forgive me for these sins so long as I see the need to be forgiven.

We all are imperfect. That has no bearing on the grace of God. Jesus Christ died for imperfect people. That's WHY He died. Because we ARE imperfect.

It's not an issue of insecurity so much as humility. Jesus talked about repentance. If you do not repent you will die in your sins (Lk 13:3).

The word is used in several ways. Basically, the Greek word means to "change the mind". If repentance is linked to salvation, then what needs to be changed is one's admittance of their sinfulness and need of salvation, and then to accept the work of Christ on the cross on your behalf. That's a change of mind.

The word is also used as a command to turn from a sinful lifestyle. But doing that doesn't save anyone. We are saved by grace through faith, not through change of lifestyle.

I think just about any Christian would agree that repentance is an important part of salvation; God wants to see that we feel genuine remorse for our bad behavior. He wants to see that we're willing to change our bad behavior.

I respectfully disagree. No one is saved because they have remorse. That inserts emotions into salvation, and the Bible does not support that. People are saved by grace through faith, not "proper emotions".

But when you believe there is nothing you can ever do to lose your salvation, repentance becomes unnecessary.

On the contrary. Repentance is necessary in order for the Lord to hear our prayers.
Isa 59:2 - But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear. NASB

These people may still give lip service to repentance, but the nature of the OSAS doctrines makes it unnecessary.

No, that is a fallacy.

So, rather than the fruits of this doctrine producing people who fall down on their knees, beating their chest in frustration and saying, "God forgive me, a sinner" we find people who may have done such a thing once to become saved, but thereafter see no real need for such an attitude.

Such an attitude is found all over the NT. It is commanded for believers, not to be saved, but for obedience and reward.

I really can't see that God only wants to see that kind of attitude only once in a person's life. We sin everyday, often willfully. Yesterday's faith is not good enough for today and neither is yesterday's repentance.

I agree. We need to be in an attitude of repentance always. But not for salvation. That's the issue.

We are saved by grace through faith. Not by "proper emotions".

 

[FreeGrace]

What about "and the second is like it, love your neighbor"?

I'm pretty sure that helping the poor is considered loving your neighbor. A person who helps the poor, don't they show their belief that loving their neighbor is the right thing to do? Maybe you've narrowed your definition of what it means to believe a little too much?

Yes, of course it's the "right thing to do" because we are commanded to do it. But again, it's NOT for salvation.

We are saved by grace through faith. Not saved by "proper emotions or works".

 

[YosefHayim]

I believe his point was that works should be a by product of faith. If works were automatically a by product of faith, then there would be no need for any of the commands to be "blameless and holy". Yet we find many such verses.


Exactly! If we don't demonstrate our faith to others, then others won't see the Lord in us. iow, when believers are demonstrating their faith, they are being Christlike, which is a command. When believers aren't demonstrating their faith, and are hypocrites, then others won't see the Lord in us.


I have eternal security. Those who reject that have a lot of insecurity.

I was more so implying faith can not die. We are born into flesh, so thus we are born into spiritual death. We were dead to begin with. But Christ breathed life into us.
But James clearly spoke of dead faith. He was speaking figuratively, of course, and was making the point that believers who don't demonstrate their faith before others have a faith that is useless as far as others are concerned.

In fact, James have a very clear example in 2:15-16. The person who said "be filled and be warm" but didn't provide anything for the cold and hungry person had a faith that was totally useless to that cold and hungry person.

One of the by products of being born again is to minister to others. But if we don't do that (demonstrate our faith to others), our faith is useless to them. That was James' point, I believe.

I've noticed time and time again that when I try myself I fail. I pray "I can't live up to your standards, so live your standards through me" in essense, because Phil 1:11 and Jn 15 show that fruit is not ours. The fruit we produce is from Christ.

I think there's something about what youre putting your faith IN, in James. Are they putting faith in the thought that they will some how be magically filled in James' example? Or are they puttin faith in the Gospel of Christ? Another facet is when he says "even the Demons believe that God is one". Believing in monotheism does not save.

 

[john darling]

I think it's an error to think that you have the choice to lose, give away, or forfeit your salvation. Salvation is not some kind of object that can be lost, given away, etc.

Something doesn't need to belong to us before we can lose it. I'm suggesting that God will choose not to offer his salvation to people who choose not to follow his values, even if they, at some time in the past, did follow his values. It's his salvation so he can do whatever he wants with it, including withholding it.

Becoming a believer is not a legal contract which obligates God to fork over eternal life no matter what may happen after the contract is signed.

Or, perhaps it's the definitions which are still unclear. You say that salvation cannot be lost once it's obtained. How does one obtain salvation? Through belief? Ok, but what does that mean? How do we know when someone believes? As James suggests, even the Devil believes.

Through obedience? Yeah, that sounds like pretty good evidence of belief. But then what happens if I stop obeying? Doesn't that mean I stop being a believer? If salvation comes through belief, then that puts God in a very awkward position. He's signed a contract for salvation with someone who used to believe. Now that person is refusing to obey anymore, but he keeps pointing back to the contract where God promised salvation. Now God is obligated to spend eternity with someone who no longer wants to follow God's rules.

Even without proof texts, something about that whole scenario just doesn't sound right at all.

I agree. We need to be in an attitude of repentance always. But not for salvation. That's the issue.

We are saved by grace through faith. Not by "proper emotions".

Hi FG. I'm reasonably sure repentance is an important part of salvation. I'm referring to repentance in the sentence of changing our behavior because we realize it needs to change and that we're sorry for the bad we've done in the past.

If we don't regret our mistakes then we probably won't change from them. I'm not talking about feeling condemned and I'm not talking about emotionalism (though genuine sorrow is a pretty good indicator that one has accepted their behavior was wrong), but a genuine realization that our behavior was wrong and a deep conviction that change is needed. I think that's the kind of repentance that must be present to show that we want salvation.

And once simply isn't enough. I can't point back to 5 years ago and say, "See, I repented back then! I did it! I repented already so get off my back"! If sin is a daily occurrence (which for most of us it is) then repentance needs to be a daily occurrence, too. What happens when people stop feeling or being repentant?

 

[john darling]

Yes, of course it's the "right thing to do" because we are commanded to do it. But again, it's NOT for salvation.

Isn't it up to God to decide how he wants to dish out his salvation? If he wants to give it to someone who shows love for their neighbor would you then correct his mistake by pointing him to the correct bible verses? You must be spitting chips over the good Samaritan.

 

[FreeGrace]

I've noticed time and time again that when I try myself I fail. I pray "I can't live up to your standards, so live your standards through me" in essense, because Phil 1:11 and Jn 15 show that fruit is not ours. The fruit we produce is from Christ.

I fully agree!

I think there's something about what youre putting your faith IN, in James. Are they putting faith in the thought that they will some how be magically filled in James' example? Or are they puttin faith in the Gospel of Christ? Another facet is when he says "even the Demons believe that God is one". Believing in monotheism does not save.

Correct, believing the truth of monotheism does not save. But James never said anything about demons not being saved. He was only pointing out that demons have correct theology, and it makes them shudder.

I don't see James urging his readers to put their faith in something. His point in ch 2 was to demonstrate their faith before others. It's clear that he considered his audience were saved believers. James 2:1

 

[FreeGrace]

Something doesn't need to belong to us before we can lose it.

As I've pointed out, salvation isn't something that can be lost. The many changes that occur at the point of faith in Christ are irrevocable.

Rom 6:23 says eternal life is a free gift. Rom 5:15 says that justification is a gift. Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. I don't see how people sidestep these verses in their view that salvation can be lost.

I'm suggesting that God will choose not to offer his salvation to people who choose not to follow his values, even if they, at some time in the past, did follow his values. It's his salvation so he can do whatever he wants with it, including withholding it.

The call (offer) of the gospel has already been given to all of mankind. And He gives eternal life to anyone who believes in His Son. Jn 5:24, 6:40

Becoming a believer is not a legal contract which obligates God to fork over eternal life no matter what may happen after the contract is signed.

Really? I do agree that believing isn't any kind of "legal contract". But consider this: does God keep His promises or not? In fact, God has promised to give eternal life to believers. Jn 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 11:25-27.

Or, perhaps it's the definitions which are still unclear. You say that salvation cannot be lost once it's obtained. How does one obtain salvation? Through belief? Ok, but what does that mean? How do we know when someone believes? As James suggests, even the Devil believes.

The key is in found in 2 things: object and goal. What is the object of saving faith? Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Acts 4:12 - “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” NASB

What is the goal of saving faith? Salvation, per 1 Pet 1:9 - obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. NASB

Those who have put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life are saved. And eternal life is a gift that is irrevocable.

Through obedience? Yeah, that sounds like pretty good evidence of belief.

Actually not. Obedience is good evidence of love. 1 Jn 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. NASB

But then what happens if I stop obeying? Doesn't that mean I stop being a believer?

If you stop obeying, you will be under God's hand of discipline, per Heb 12. It means that you've stopped loving God. Believing and loving are different things.

If salvation comes through belief, then that puts God in a very awkward position.

Wow! Really. That's exactly what Scripture says.

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Here are some verses about how one obtains eternal life (salvation):
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

He's signed a contract for salvation with someone who used to believe.

No, He signs nothing. His promise is the key and God always keeps His promise.

Let me ask you: what verse actually says that one can lose their salvation?

Now that person is refusing to obey anymore, but he keeps pointing back to the contract where God promised salvation. Now God is obligated to spend eternity with someone who no longer wants to follow God's rules.

God is self obligated to keep His promises. And God is omniscient, so your scenario poses no problem for God.

I invite you to the thread on 1 Thess 5:4-10 which proves eternal security.

Even without proof texts, something about that whole scenario just doesn't sound right at all.

So you're basing your views on what "sounds right" to you, rather than on what God's Word actually says, or doesn't say??

Hi FG. I'm reasonably sure repentance is an important part of salvation. I'm referring to repentance in the sentence of changing our behavior because we realize it needs to change and that we're sorry for the bad we've done in the past.

But changing behavior doesn't save anyone. I refer you to Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

If we don't regret our mistakes then we probably won't change from them. I'm not talking about feeling condemned and I'm not talking about emotionalism (though genuine sorrow is a pretty good indicator that one has accepted their behavior was wrong), but a genuine realization that our behavior was wrong and a deep conviction that change is needed. I think that's the kind of repentance that must be present to show that we want salvation.

OK, so what verse teaches all this? It may "sound right" to you, but where is it taught clearly?

And once simply isn't enough. I can't point back to 5 years ago and say, "See, I repented back then! I did it! I repented already so get off my back"! If sin is a daily occurrence (which for most of us it is) then repentance needs to be a daily occurrence, too. What happens when people stop feeling or being repentant?

Salvation isn't about repentance, if one means turning from sins. If one means accepting Jesus Christ as Savior, then yes, once is enough.

Since you think it isn't enough, please support your view from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Isn't it up to God to decide how he wants to dish out his salvation?

Absolutely! And this is what Scripture says: 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. NASB

And remember that salvation (eternal life) is a free gift (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

If he wants to give it to someone who shows love for their neighbor would you then correct his mistake by pointing him to the correct bible verses?

I already know who he is pleased to give salvation to: those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).

You must be spitting chips over the good Samaritan.

Huh???!! I have no clue what your point may be.

 

[YosefHayim]

Absolutely! And this is what Scripture says: 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. NASB

And remember that salvation (eternal life) is a free gift (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).


I already know who he is pleased to give salvation to: those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).


Huh???!! I have no clue what your point may be.

Would you say that in some senses that salvation is a legal contract? There are 3 that bear witness. Jesus is our advocate.

Here's a tidbit on "can the seal of God be broken?"

Using the fact that a man’s seal was broken by God as proof that God’s seal could be broken by a man is ridiculous.

But more importantly, the language of Ephesians 1:13-14 tells the story. Paul chose words that have legal implications for God. Take the phrase “as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance”. The literal translation of the phrase “deposit guaranteeing” is “money which in purchases is given as a pledge or down payment that the full amount will subsequently be paid”.

The King James translators used the word “earnest” there, as in earnest money deposit, a real estate term that describes the payment accompanying an offer to purchase property. It legally obligates the buyers to follow through on the purchase and takes the property off the market so no one else can jump in and buy it out from under them.

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/can-the-seal-be-broken/
​

 

[john darling]

Yeah, I think we do need to consider what sounds right and what sounds wrong. That's an important part of interpretation. None of us has perfect understanding of all truth, but the Holy Spirit is still able to communicate to us through our conscience. The idea that a person can legally wrangle eternal life from God based on a contractual agreement that God owes eternal life because at some point in the past a person "believed" just doesn't sound right. When people start basing their arguments on promises of what God owes them despite their behavior, no matter what they do, I don't need a Bible verse to tell me that person has a problem.

You keep talking about belief, but when people showed you evidence that there is a link between obedience and belief, you just claim that it's a wrong understanding of the verses, even when there are several verses saying the same thing. Somewhere along the way it just becomes people throwing verses at one another more to support their position rather than an honest attempt to consider how all the verses fit together into a bigger whole. What I see happening is that making a link between obedience and belief threatens your doctrine, so you pile your own careful selection of verses on top of the evidence others present as though it's a matter of who has the most verses.

I believe the fruit of the "eternal security" doctrine is convenience. You talk about having "security" as though it's a bad thing to doubt one's self, but self doubt is an important part of self judgment. It's what helps us to consider if our behavior is or is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus. If our behavior is inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus, then there's a pretty good chance God will not offer salvation, no matter how many Bible verses we can produce to prove that we should be saved according to how we interpreted the verses.

At the end of the sermon on the mount Jesus told a story about a wise man and a foolish man. Both men listened to Jesus' teachings. They both heard what he said. They both knew what he wanted them to do. But only one man acted on those teachings. As a result of acting on those teachings he was building his house on a strong rock. He was wise.

The foolish man also heard the teachings, but chose not to act. As a result of not acting on Jesus' teachings he was building his house on sand. He was foolish.

When the storm came, only the wise man survived, and only then because he acted on the teachings of Jesus.

MT 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

MT 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

MT 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

MT 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

[YosefHayim]

Yeah, I think we do need to consider what sounds right and what sounds wrong. That's an important part of interpretation. None of us has perfect understanding of all truth, but the Holy Spirit is still able to communicate to us through our conscience. The idea that a person can legally wrangle eternal life from God based on a contractual agreement that God owes eternal life because at some point in the past a person "believed" just doesn't sound right. When people start basing their arguments on promises of what God owes them despite their behavior, no matter what they do, I don't need a Bible verse to tell me that person has a problem.

You keep talking about belief, but when people showed you evidence that there is a link between obedience and belief, you just claim that it's a wrong understanding of the verses, even when there are several verses saying the same thing. Somewhere along the way it just becomes people throwing verses at one another more to support their position rather than an honest attempt to consider how all the verses fit together into a bigger whole. What I see happening is that making a link between obedience and belief threatens your doctrine, so you pile your own careful selection of verses on top of the evidence others present as though it's a matter of who has the most verses.

I believe the fruit of the "eternal security" doctrine is convenience. You talk about having "security" as though it's a bad thing to doubt one's self, but self doubt is an important part of self judgment. It's what helps us to consider if our behavior is or is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus. If our behavior is inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus, then there's a pretty good chance God will not offer salvation, no matter how many Bible verses we can produce to prove that we should be saved according to how we interpreted the verses.

At the end of the sermon on the mount Jesus told a story about a wise man and a foolish man. Both men listened to Jesus' teachings. They both heard what he said. They both knew what he wanted them to do. But only one man acted on those teachings. As a result of acting on those teachings he was building his house on a strong rock. He was wise.

The foolish man also heard the teachings, but chose not to act. As a result of not acting on Jesus' teachings he was building his house on sand. He was foolish.

When the storm came, only the wise man survived, and only then because he acted on the teachings of Jesus.

MT 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

MT 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

MT 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

MT 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Faith and obedience may be linked, but just because they correlate doesn't mean obedience is a means of being or staying saved. Our works are not ours. The only link between faith and obedience is Jesus. Works are merely a byproduct of faith. And those works don't belong to us (Phil 1:11; Eph 2:8-10). Unless Yahweh builds the house, the workers labour in vain.

 

[john darling]

Faith and obedience may be linked

Hi Yosef, thanks for considering the connection. If you go by the evidence it's not really a "may be" but more like a common sense thing. If you walk into a room and say, "there's a bomb in the room and it will explode any second now", how do you know who has faith in (or believes) what you've said and who doesn't? The people who believe you will be saved. The people who don't believe you will be...

but just because they correlate doesn't mean obedience is a means of being or staying saved.

No, obedience doesn't guarantee salvation anymore than claiming salvation guarantees salvation. However, if we base salvation on belief, and there is a connection between belief and obedience, and someone later down the road decides they don't want to obey anymore, then they're also deciding they don't believe anymore. If salvation is guaranteed for all time no matter what on the basis of belief at any point in a person's life, then you've got a real problem when people decide they don't believe (i.e. don't want to obey) anymore.

Works are merely a byproduct of faith.

I don't understand why you qualify this statement with "merely". If there really is a connection between obedience and faith then using merely for one affects the other. For example, would you say, "faith is merely a bi-product of works"? I don't see it as a competition between the two. They both serve an important part of the Christian lifestyle.

I really don't understand this extreme caution about works. All the warnings about works relate to having a proud attitude and boasting. None of the warnings even hint or suggest that we should not do good works, but only that we should be careful not to boast about them. And yet people have taken those warnings and made them into something which has turned goodness into something worthless. The common perception today seems to go something like, " Christians should try to be good blah blah blah but if you try to make anything more of it than "merely" a vague bi-product somewhere in the background, then you'll be guilty of working your way to Heaven!

But these good works are the values of Heaven, the standards we act on in order to demonstrate God's goodness. How have we come to view a demonstration of the values of Heaven as "merely a bi-product"?

 

[FreeGrace]

Would you say that in some senses that salvation is a legal contract? There are 3 that bear witness. Jesus is our advocate.

No. I agree that Jesus is our advocate. But that doesn't equate to a legal contract in 'some sense'.

Here's a tidbit on "can the seal of God be broken?"

Using the fact that a man’s seal was broken by God as proof that God’s seal could be broken by a man is ridiculous.

But more importantly, the language of Ephesians 1:13-14 tells the story. Paul chose words that have legal implications for God. Take the phrase “as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance”. The literal translation of the phrase “deposit guaranteeing” is “money which in purchases is given as a pledge or down payment that the full amount will subsequently be paid”.

The King James translators used the word “earnest” there, as in earnest money deposit, a real estate term that describes the payment accompanying an offer to purchase property. It legally obligates the buyers to follow through on the purchase and takes the property off the market so no one else can jump in and buy it out from under them.

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/can-the-seal-be-broken/
​

I happen to agree that the seal of the Holy Spirit per Eph 1:13-14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 prove that all who have believed are sealed for the day of redemption. A clear statement of eternal security.

 

[Deborah13]

Something doesn't need to belong to us before we can lose it. I'm suggesting that God will choose not to offer his salvation to people who choose not to follow his values, even if they, at some time in the past, did follow his values. It's his salvation so he can do whatever he wants with it, including withholding it.

Becoming a believer is not a legal contract which obligates God to fork over eternal life no matter what may happen after the contract is signed.

Or, perhaps it's the definitions which are still unclear. You say that salvation cannot be lost once it's obtained. How does one obtain salvation? Through belief? Ok, but what does that mean? How do we know when someone believes? As James suggests, even the Devil believes.

Through obedience? Yeah, that sounds like pretty good evidence of belief. But then what happens if I stop obeying? Doesn't that mean I stop being a believer? If salvation comes through belief, then that puts God in a very awkward position. He's signed a contract for salvation with someone who used to believe. Now that person is refusing to obey anymore, but he keeps pointing back to the contract where God promised salvation. Now God is obligated to spend eternity with someone who no longer wants to follow God's rules.

Even without proof texts, something about that whole scenario just doesn't sound right at all.

That's because it isn't.
God didn't make a contract (covenant) with every individual believer. He made a covenant with Abraham and His Son, the One Seed, who will never break that contract.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yeah, I think we do need to consider what sounds right and what sounds wrong. That's an important part of interpretation.

I believe that is a rather dangerous thing to do. We all have our particular biases and views on things. What we need to understand and face is what God SAYS, not what "sounds right".

If there were any verses that outright said that salvation could be lost, then I'd certainly believe it. But there aren't any verses that say such a thing. In fact, there are verses and passages that indicate the exact opposite.

None of us has perfect understanding of all truth, but the Holy Spirit is still able to communicate to us through our conscience.

Don't forget that the devil has deceived the "whole world" per 1 John 5:19. And the Bible does indicate that believers can be deceived. Gal 6:7 and James 1:16

The idea that a person can legally wrangle eternal life from God based on a contractual agreement that God owes eternal life because at some point in the past a person "believed" just doesn't sound right

The reason it doesn't sound right is because it isn't right. There is no "contractural agreement" where God owes anyone anything.

The point is that God promises eternal life to those who believe. And God keeps His word. No one "legally wrangles" anything from God. That is quite a silly thing to contemplate.

When people start basing their arguments on promises of what God owes them despite their behavior, no matter what they do, I don't need a Bible verse to tell me that person has a problem.

Uh, God's promise obligates Himself. That's how a promise works. The one who makes a promise has obligated themself. Remember; this is God's plan from start to finish. It's His plan. He knows what He has promised and what that means.

You keep talking about belief, but when people showed you evidence that there is a link between obedience and belief, you just claim that it's a wrong understanding of the verses, even when there are several verses saying the same thing.

Actually, I refuted that from Scripture. The link is between obedience and love. Not faith. 1 Jn 5:3

Somewhere along the way it just becomes people throwing verses at one another more to support their position rather than an honest attempt to consider how all the verses fit together into a bigger whole. What I see happening is that making a link between obedience and belief threatens your doctrine, so you pile your own careful selection of verses on top of the evidence others present as though it's a matter of who has the most verses.

Please show me a verse that links faith with obdience. I've given you 1 that links obedience with love.

I believe the fruit of the "eternal security" doctrine is convenience. You talk about having "security" as though it's a bad thing to doubt one's self, but self doubt is an important part of self judgment.

Again, we disagree. There is no convenience here. Just what the Word of God says. And I do think it's a bad thing to doubt one's salvation. Consider this verse: Rom 14:23 - But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin. NASB

I agree that "whatever is not from faith is sin". And self doubt is not from faith. It is from a lack of faith. So self doubt when it comes to one's salvation is NOT believing the promise of God.

I asked several questions in #124, which you did not answer. Would you, please?

Also, I gave you 2 verses: Rom 6:23 which says that eternal life is a gift, and Rom 11:29 which says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Which verse do you ignore?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

This seems to be a really provocative thread title, but it really is just a quotation from Scripture.

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24 (ESV)

What is your take on this text? What does it mean?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[john darling]

Don't forget that the devil has deceived the "whole world" per 1 John 5:19. And the Bible does indicate that believers can be deceived. Gal 6:7 and James 1:16

I was talking about listening to the holy spirit and you say, "thou hast a devil"?

The point is that God promises eternal life to those who believe. And God keeps His word. No one "legally wrangles" anything from God. That is quite a silly thing to contemplate.

And what happens when people stop believing? The osas doctrine says they keep their salvation no matter what; it can never be lost for any reason.

Actually, I refuted that from Scripture. The link is between obedience and love. Not faith. 1 Jn 5:3

This is one of those legalistic things. You can't say you have faith if you don't at least try to apply the teachings of Jesus. Faith, belief, love; they're all aspects of the same issue.

Please show me a verse that links faith with obdience. I've given you 1 that links obedience with love.

I gave several examples in post# 94. JLB then gave examples in post#96. Look at your response in post# 100 where you quote a comment from JLB:

JLB:
That is what by faith means; Obedience.
FREE:
No, 'by faith' means because he trusted God. James' point was that those who have trusted God for their salvation are supposed to live by their faith (demonstrate it to others), lest they be charged with hypocrisy.

You casually dismiss the connection between faith (or belief) and obedience by claiming it's about trust. But that's just more legalistic technicality jargon; what's the difference between trust and faith? Those who trust God should show their faith through their actions. If they do not show their actions, they do not show their trust, or belief.