Bible Study A question about the unforgivable sin

[Laudate Dominum]

You still won't get it will you, please read the following and tell me who fits that profile today.
II Thessalonians 2

Chapter 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

I do like that verse! I thik the Catholic Church holds to that pretty well :-D

As for the beginning verses, I only have one word: Nero.

 

[turnorburn]

Your beating a dead horse that's been used 100's of times but guess what Nero is dead,plus how is the Lord going to come and destroy a dead man?

 

[Vic C.]

Yes Nero is a "type" of antiChrist, but he isn't THE antichrist. John tells us there would be many antichrists.

But if we are to say Paul is speaking to the Thessalonian church about the Jewish revolt and the destruction of the temple, then we can also say the traditions being spoken about were the traditions they were being taught, in the 1st. century.

Who's to say that must also apply now, or even 1,000 years ago, in a time where we already had canonized Scripture to teach and guide us?

 

[Laudate Dominum]

Your beating a dead horse that's been used 100's of times but guess what Nero is dead,plus how is the Lord going to come and destroy a dead man?

Nero was regarded by many early christians as being the "beast" spoken of in Revelation. He promoted the practice of Emperor worship among other things. But my point is that any number of persons throughout history could be comapred to these prophecies, from Nero to Napoleon to Ronal Reagan. Adding another interpretation to the mix won't make it any clearer :roll:

Let's go back to verse 15 of your citation:
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Apparantly there was something important the apostles talked about that they didn't write about. There is no reason to believe that it wouldn't be as important to us as it was to the Thessalonians.

But we're really getting off topic here...

 

[Vic C.]

But we're really getting off topic here...

Oops, broke my own rule. :

I totally forgot which thread I was in! :-D

Wait! Ronald Reagan? :o

 

[turnorburn]

Your missing the entire point....

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This guy is alive and kicking, but when the Lord Jesus Christ gets through with him that will settle it

Your beating a dead horse that's been used 100's of times but guess what Nero is dead,plus how is the Lord going to come and destroy a dead man?

Nero was regarded by many early christians as being the "beast" spoken of in Revelation. He promoted the practice of Emperor worship among other things. But my point is that any number of persons throughout history could be comapred to these prophecies, from Nero to Napoleon to Ronal Reagan. Adding another interpretation to the mix won't make it any clearer :roll:

Let's go back to verse 15 of your citation:
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Apparantly there was something important the apostles talked about that they didn't write about. There is no reason to believe that it wouldn't be as important to us as it was to the Thessalonians.

But we're really getting off topic here...

 

[Laudate Dominum]

It seems odd to me that the one who called himself "servant of the servants of God" (Pope John Paul II) could possibly be called "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
I find it extremely doubtful that these verses refer to the Catholic Church :roll:

Your missing the entire point....

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This guy is alive and kicking, but when the Lord Jesus Christ gets through with him that will settle it

Your beating a dead horse that's been used 100's of times but guess what Nero is dead,plus how is the Lord going to come and destroy a dead man?

Nero was regarded by many early christians as being the "beast" spoken of in Revelation. He promoted the practice of Emperor worship among other things. But my point is that any number of persons throughout history could be comapred to these prophecies, from Nero to Napoleon to Ronal Reagan. Adding another interpretation to the mix won't make it any clearer :roll:

Let's go back to verse 15 of your citation:
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Apparantly there was something important the apostles talked about that they didn't write about. There is no reason to believe that it wouldn't be as important to us as it was to the Thessalonians.

But we're really getting off topic here...

 

[turnorburn]

No Vic its the Captain Kangaroo your thinking of, see....

But we're really getting off topic here...

Oops, broke my own rule. :

I totally forgot which thread I was in! :-D

Wait! Ronald Reagan? :o

 

[Laudate Dominum]

But we're really getting off topic here...

Oops, broke my own rule. :

I totally forgot which thread I was in! :-D

Wait! Ronald Reagan? :o

Ronald Wilson Reagan- the only president in U.S. history to have all three of his names with only 6 letters in each. Ronald=6 letters, Wilson=6 letters, Reagan=6 letters. 666. It's amazing what people will do when they're trying to smear an opponent...

 

[turnorburn]

Where do you get your material, now that was a good observation :wink:

[quote="vic C.":6af95]

But we're really getting off topic here...

Oops, broke my own rule. :

I totally forgot which thread I was in! :-D

Wait! Ronald Reagan? :o

Ronald Wilson Reagan- the only president in U.S. history to have all three of his names with only 6 letters in each. Ronald=6 letters, Wilson=6 letters, Reagan=6 letters. 666. It's amazing what people will do when they're trying to smear an opponent...[/quote:6af95]

 

[Laudate Dominum]

Where do you get your material, now that was a good observation :wink:

Ronald Wilson Reagan- the only president in U.S. history to have all three of his names with only 6 letters in each. Ronald=6 letters, Wilson=6 letters, Reagan=6 letters. 666. It's amazing what people will do when they're trying to smear an opponent...

Apparantly it was used against him by fringe groups in the 80s... I heard about it in class one day. I wasn't even born at the time this was going on :-D

 

[turnorburn]

Have you read the book, if you did you would see the church was very involved, they
viewed people like me a heretic. That was reason enough but while enduring the pangs
of the rack they still tried to get you to renounce your faith in Jesus Christ, "Why is
that do you suppose"? :

This kind of acid? your church has almost conquered the entire word and when it does the new
Inquisitions will start, its bible Prophecy and nobody is going to stop her. As a Christian outside
your church I will be seen as a heretic and you know what the do to heretics, they torture them, they are examined before the Inquisitors, as it is written in Foxes Book Of Martyrs

There were several Inquisitions thorughout history, perhaps the most notable being the Spanish one. The Inquisitions were not ordered by Rome, but by the local governments. I assure you that the Inquistions were not nearly as bad as the propoganda suggests, and were certainly matched by the persecutions by Protestants.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

"Heretic" is not nearly so bad a word as you think it is. The word itself simply means "One who believes wrongly". From your point of view, I and all other practicing Catholics are heretics. I find it odd how people shy away from the term :-?

The thing about heresies is that they tend to come in packs- if you see a particular belief condemned as a heresy, there's probably a bit more to it than just one opinion gone wrong. The Spanish Inquisition didn't even have anything to do with protestants, really. It had more to do with trying to make Spain a Christian nation, as opposed to Muslim, which is what is was before the reconquista. The Spanish Inquisiton tried to root out the Muslim and Jewish persons who pretended to be Christian but really didn't believe. The other inquisitons in countries like France- I think those dealt more with Protestant ideas. But any atrocities committed have almost certainly been matched by Protestant witch burnings and seperate persecutions against Catholics in which you yourself have taken part, though in a small way.

And, well, from a Catholic view, they weren't asking you to deny your faith, but to affirm it!

Have you read the book, if you did you would see the church was very involved, they
viewed people like me a heretic. That was reason enough but while enduring the pangs
of the rack they still tried to get you to renounce your faith in Jesus Christ, "Why is
that do you suppose"? :

This kind of acid? your church has almost conquered the entire word and when it does the new
Inquisitions will start, its bible Prophecy and nobody is going to stop her. As a Christian outside
your church I will be seen as a heretic and you know what the do to heretics, they torture them, they are examined before the Inquisitors, as it is written in Foxes Book Of Martyrs

There were several Inquisitions thorughout history, perhaps the most notable being the Spanish one. The Inquisitions were not ordered by Rome, but by the local governments. I assure you that the Inquistions were not nearly as bad as the propoganda suggests, and were certainly matched by the persecutions by Protestants.

 

[turnorburn]

I wasn't looking for the full meal deal here, I asked if you read the book, maybe if
I ask again ya think, "Did You Read The Book"?

 

[Laudate Dominum]

I wasn't looking for the full meal deal here, I asked if you read the book, maybe if
I ask again ya think, "Did You Read The Book"?

I realized that after I finished- no, I have not read the book. : :-D

 

[turnorburn]

http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u298 ... 5439d0.flv

Look at him just look at what he did for love and it pleased him to do it so that we
may have everlasting life..

Thank you Jesus

 

[Archetype]

Hello
Some Christians say the unforgivable sin is attributing works of The Holy Spirit to Satan.
But do people who have that view think it is just Satan or if you attribute works of The Holy Spirit to natural causes e.g. somebody who says Jesus's miricles were placibo affect you have commited it also.
I know some have this view' I don't know how many.
Chris

Chris,
The statement of Jesus on the unforgivable sin is in Matthew 12. You have most of the details to understanding that context. The signs done by Jesus in the power of the HS were for the purpose of demonstrating his messanic ministry. Certainly to deny the source of Jesus miracles as being of God is proof of a very hardened heart. Suggesting these works are done through the power of Satan is to completely deny his messanic miraclous ministry. Interesting that we have no statements like this about athiests. Appearently this statement by these Pharisees demonstrates the self-righteous and hardened heart more then anything else.

As to who has those hardened hearts today, I dont know. I have no way of seeing a mans heart, and who the HS might withdraw from.

i agree, which is one of the many fallacies of judaism. i was arguing with my friend the other day about this. jews do not regard jesus sacrifce nor his divinity and the father sending him. therefore most of them will burn in hell. cant have the father w/o the son and they will certainly be judged by the law-most of them are guilty as charged. although at the end of matthew 23, the jews will finally recognize christ as the sent from the lord. a possible tie in with the apology in isaiah 64.

however "the seed of jesse" will be spared. so the lord will keep a few of them.

the message about the unforgiveable sin, is the if you truly believe that the evil one has blessed with you with all of the things the lord has given you, then you will be condemned. i believe you can still be saved, if you truly ask for forgiveness, repent and do it no more and come judgement time, explain to the lord you said that out of stupidity and anger. throw yourself on the mercy of the court and beg for forgiveness. confess in christ.

if you dont and truly love satan over the lord, thou shalt be condemned.

 

[turnorburn]

Lets start with John 3:16~21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God

And this one John 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What these verses tell me is that after having an opportunity to be saved you not only reject God
but you call him a liar. In order to pass through the gates of heaven it is necessary that you have
one thing, Gods Holy Spirit. The result of all of this is you have more or less demonstrated that you want nothing to do with God and God would not want anybody in his presence that hated him.
The individual that does this has rejected Gods gift, his Holy Spirit and that's blaspheme..

 

[Archetype]

Right. read 1 john ch 2 vs 23

 

[turnorburn]

I just read it, when you reject Jesus your denying the holy spirit access to your life, Thanks! for
that scripture. :-D