A question for those who claim tongues for today.

[mutzrein]

MEC - lots of people have recorded details of events that they were not actually at. Does that make them any less valid?

Perhaps . . . if our doctrine or theology doesn't fit. Perhaps folks might try to find a reason NOT to believe. And in our search for something to discredit it, shouldn't we be careful that it doesn't cause a weaker brother or sister to stumble and miss whatever gift the Lord may have for them?

I am also speaking to myself here MEC.

Why not take it the Lord?

 

[Imagican]

MEC - lots of people have recorded details of events that they were not actually at. Does that make them any less valid?

I agree 100 percent. I don't know how to answer the part concerning validity. I believe that you too ARE aware that the Bible means NOTHING without guidance OF The Spirit. And we would both agree, I believe, that there have been alerations to ANYTHING close to a 'pure form' of The Word offered IN The Bible. The ONLY way we can KNOW what is true and what ISN'T is THROUGH The Spirit. For we have MUCH PROOF that those that compiled the Bible DID indeed ADD to and ALTER what they CHOSE to USE to 'create' the book that is now known as The Holy Bible. What IS truth and what is, let's say, 'speculation' to be 'polite', CANNOT be discerned EXCEPT through The Spirit. So, NO, the simple 'idea' that one NOT present is 'unable' to record an event accurately is NOT possible is INCORRECT. But where there are a NUMBER of people present at the SAME event, record the SAME words, and then there is 'another' that WASN'T present, and records the words DIFFERENTLY, there IS SUSPICION.

Perhaps . . . if our doctrine or theology doesn't fit. Perhaps folks might try to find a reason NOT to believe. And in our search for something to discredit it, shouldn't we be careful that it doesn't cause a weaker brother or sister to stumble and miss whatever gift the Lord may have for them?

What you offer IS of a 'truth'. no doubt. And I will WHOLY agree that this IS possible for EVERYONE, including myself.

And the REASON that I offer 'what' I offer is for this VERY reason itself. For those that ARE exposed to 'false tongues' would NOT be so subceptable to such IF they KNEW the 'truth' concerning tongues. And perhaps, (notice I offer the REALITY that I DON'T KNOW everything), but perhaps, IF this verse of Mark WAS 'created' while NOT actually BEING the 'truth', (I have found that MOST that defend tongues USE this as their MOST valid point of PROOF for the 'use of tongues'), which COULD, if NOT a valid section of scripture, ALLOW those withOUT scruples, (simply a DESIRE to encourage tongues that ARE NOT valid), TO manipulate those that are UNAWARE of the possibility of such a 'possible' fraud.

But, it is CERTAINLY up to the INDIVIDUAL to discern the truth. If they simply ACCEPT what is offered to them without ANY validation THROUGH scripture AND The Holy Spirit, they are certainly taking their faith less seriously than they ought.

And I have 'tried' to be as informative as possible AND have TRIED to Show where MY OPINION separates itself from PROVABLE 'truth'. I HAVE read Mark over and over and over and over................again and have found MYSELF to be able to 'see' the difference in the words used THROUGHOUT the Gospel being 'similar' UNTIL one gets to the LAST eight verses. And NOT ONLY are the words 'different', but it's as if it STARTS over at verse nine, (if I remember correctly), like the person that 'wrote it' FORGOT that they had ALREADY explained WHO Mary was and starts over by explaining AGAIN WHO she was. Once this is 'recognized', it is VERY apparent.

I am also speaking to myself here MEC.

And Mutz, I 'believe' that we know each other well enough to KNOW that NEITHER would do ANYTHING 'intentional' to lead ANYONE in ANY direction other than that which we have 'been led'. NO TWO people will EVER agree 100 percent of the time 100 percent. And I am NOT trying to discourage ANYONE from veering in ANY way from that which they are led BY The Spirit. I just feel it's PRUDENT to warn those that there ARE those that would 'lead them' in a 'different' direction than that God would have them led, (I am NOT referring to you or ANYONE particular), but you know as well as I that there ARE Beni Hindi's out there that WOULD sell their congregation's souls for filthy lucre. And there are PLENTY that would ignorantly follow the likes of these without 'knowing better'.

Why not take it the Lord?

ABSOLUTELY. DON'T take 'my word' for ANYTHING. I am simply here to offer information from 'my perspective' and MY relationship with God through His Son. NEVER simply take what I say and run with it. PROVE EVERY WORD OFFERED BY ANYONE. And for those that may not already know this, NEVER follow ANY MAN. The Spirit is CERTAINLY ABLE to offer understanding THROUGH individuals as they are led. BUT, ALWAYS 'prove' such through scripture and through the offerings of The Holy Spirit.

And Mutz, j, ALL; PLEASE understand that I DO NOT DOUBT God. I have TRIED to make this obvious. ANYTHING IS possible WITH GOD. All I have offered is WHAT 'I' understand and the 'way' in which I understand it.

Are tongues for today? I can't say. I know that I have yet to witness it. That means NOTHING so far as ANY proof one way or the other. I have simply tried to point out that MUCH of this 'new age' tongues DIRECTLY refute what we HAVE been offered in scripture. So, for those that aren't 'sure', I would offer the SAME advice Mutz offered to ME, 'take it to the Lord. Just make sure that you follow the 'right Lord' so that you ARE able to recieve the 'right answer', (right?).

MEC

 

[stranger]

Tongues is one issue but what about animal noises like at the Toronto blessings???? It is the accompanying phenomena like this that casts doubt upon tongues.

 

[Imagican]

Mutz, ALL,

Now I have a 'question'.

How would we 'determine' the TRUTH concerning tongues. Example;

Let's say I'm NOT wearing the WHOLE ARMOR of God one day. And I have been exposed to 'false tongues'. And, all of a sudden I feel COMPELLED to speak in a 'similar way' to that which I have been exposed to. WHAT should one USE to 'determine' whether or NOT this is a valid 'gift' offered THROUGH The Spirit or simply 'something' being offered by a 'different' spirit?

What scriptural PROOFS do we use or HOW do we 'protect ourselves' from that which is NOT PRUDENT concerning tongues. For EACH that has offered an opinion on this topic has PLAINLY stated that EACH IS aware that there ARE those 'tongues' that ARE NOT the 'tongues' offered THROUGH The Spirit.

Watch. One MAY be ABLE to 'listen' to ROCK N ROLL music WITHOUT suffering the detrimental effects of it's intent. BUT, there ARE others that may be led AWAY from God by partaking in such. Wouldn't it be PRUDENT for those that 'don't KNOW' what the effects may or may NOT be to simply AVOID that which IS NOT PRUDENT? Wouldn't it be SAFER to NOT KNOW, than to "find out later' that they had STUMBLED over something that WASN'T necessary for them to STUMBLE OVER had they simply AVOIDED IT.

For EVERYONE that has experienced The Spirit IN THEIR LIVES KNOWS; ONE CANNOT 'deny' The Spirit IF they are obedient and following 'the TRUTH'. In other words, IF The Spirit GIVES UTTERANCE, one WILL speak as directed, TRUE? So, my warning would be to those that attend denominations where there ARE those that ENCOURAGE tongues, BEWARE of the 'purpose' of their encouragement. TAKE IT TO THE LORD couldn't offer BETTER ADVICE. But I have personally witnessed those that feel COMPELLED to 'emulate' those around them to 'fit in'. EVEN to the point of 'faking tongues', (speaking in 'self-made' tongues). For I have PERSONALLY witnessed churches whose members AND pastors themselves INDICATE, if not OUTRIGHT STATE that ONE MUST speak in tongues to be 'baptized IN The Spirit'. And MOST of us KNOW that this is 'false teaching'.

So, please, those that 'believe' tongues ARE for today, let the rest of us KNOW how we are to discern the difference between those that ARE tongues offered as a 'gift' through The Holy Spirit and those that are 'false tongues'. For each of us could CERTAINLY benefit by the KNOWING.

Scriptural evidence? For MOST of the scriptural evidence that I have understanding of points to warnings rather than ENCOURAGEMENT. For even as Paul states, "Forbid NOT to speak in tongues, BUT RATHER.............'' There MUST be a 'reason' for his 'stating this in this way'. A 'warning'? Certainly NOT encouragement of the use of tongues for we ARE to seek after the BEST gifts and tongues ARE of the least importance.

MEC

 

[Guest]

Allow me to throw my two cents in.

First, I will share my bias - I do not believe that the 'sign gifts' are for today - however, I would hesitate to say that they have ceased. Who am I to tell God what He can or cannot do?

In the Scriptures whereby the sign gift of tongues has manifested, the gospel has either been preached to a virgin territory or to a virgin person - ie: an area or person who has never even heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ - and I would suggest that by "never even heard" the gospel I mean the gospel that we have now in the NT - and by 'never heard' I mean barren, virgin, never heard a rumor, etc.

The 'sign gifts' provide a witness, a testimony, to the gospel message that wasn't written down. I would suggest that today, we do have a complete witness to the gospel in the Scriptures. We have the absolute authority in the Word of God, penned by man through the direction of the Holy Spirit - these God-breathed words are a witness a testimony to the life-changing transforming work of Jesus Christ.

Secondly - I believe it is a gross distrortion to say that one's salvation is 'cofirmed' or 'evident' when and only when the believer speaks in 'tongues'. For me, this contradicts the Word of God: Romans 10:8-11

But what does it say? "The Word is Near You, in your mouth and in your heart" - that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scriupture says "Whoever Believes in HIm will not be Disappoined"

(emphasis added)

And in verse 13

for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved" - quoting from Joel 2:32

To suggest that one must speak in tongues to be 'truly' or 'fully' saved is to contradict and nullify these verses from Scripture.

And lastly I would suggest that if the gifts of tongues, or any of the other sign gifts, are still bestowed today - that it is for the edification of God and the self. That it is to be done in an act of service in ministering the Gospel. And let us not forget that IF tongues are spoken today in a public setting, like say Church, that there needs to be a translation of the tongues (1 Cor. 14:1-19)

 

[Imagican]

To offer a brief summation of my understanding;

So long as one is obedient and remains foundationally SOLID, The Spirit WILL lead them as IT will. Whether this is pertaining to tongues or ANY aspect of what it TAKES for one to experience the COMPLETE understanding of Love.

If it takes tongues to solidify this love and it's understanding then I am QUITE sure that it could be for 'today', tommorrow and forever.

But for those that are NOT on solid foundation; BEWARE. Beware of that which is NOT prudent for a relationship between God and their brothers and sisters.

And don't forget, it is NOT about 'gifts' being given for PERSONAL 'gain', (regardless of how that 'personal gain is percieved), it IS about the 'gifts' that are given that make it possible for us to offer a DEEPER love for God and each other.

Let ALL THINGS be done for the edification of THE BODY. And these ThINGS are USELESS unless sought after and executed through LOVE, TRUE love. That LOVE that is OFFERED, NOT TAKEN. Love of God and OTHERS, rather than 'self-love' that can lead in NO DIRECTION except the SAME that led to the FALL of Satan. For self love can ONLY lead to 'foolish pride'. Pride in ONESELF that there is NOT A ONE of us worthy of.

MEC